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Friday, December 22, 2006 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments

Document The Only One in Step

by Richard Dawkins

I can't find the original volume so I may have got the exact words wrong, but I recall one of those marvellous old Punch cartoons in which every last detail is painstakingly explained. A devoted mother is looking proudly on at a military parade as her son's platoon marches past: "There's my boy, he's the only one in step!" On The Guardian letters page of December 19th 2006, I initiated an exchange about Professor Andrew McIntosh of Leeds university, who has publicly stated that he believes the world is only 6,000 years old, and publicly stated that the theory of evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Both these beliefs place McIntosh out of step with his scientific colleagues, not just his platoon but the entire regiment — to paraphrase Evelyn Waugh, the whole ruddy division. Amazingly, McIntosh is Professor of Thermodynamics at Leeds, and, equally amazingly, a letter supporting him has now appeared from Professor Stuart Burgess, Head of the Department of Mechanical Engineering at Bristol University . Other letters to the Editor indicate that a distressing number of otherwise knowledgeable and intelligent people have little conception of the enormity of what is being said.

Science doesn't work by vote and it doesn't work by authority. It is possible that Burgess and McIntosh really are the only ones in step, and the whole scientific establishment is flat wrong. Indeed, I shall bias my discussion in their favour by continuing to use that word 'establishment' with all its pejorative overtones of fuddyduddy, stick-in-the-muddy authoritarianism. I like mavericks. I like free spirits who buck the trend and strike out on their own. They are not usually right, but on the rare occasions when they are, they are very right indeed: importantly so, and all power to them. Maybe Burgess and McIntosh are right and all the rest of us — biologists, geologists, archeologists, historians, chemists, physicists, cosmologists and, yes, thermodynamicists and respectable theologians, the vast majority of Nobel Prizewinners, Fellows of the Royal Society and of the National Academies of the world — are wrong. Not just slightly wrong but catastrophically, appallingly, devastatingly wrong. It is possible, and I am going to follow that possibility through to its logical conclusion. I shall not here defend the views held by the scientific establishment. I am among those who have done that elsewhere, in many books. My purpose in this article is only to convey the full magnitude of the error into which, if Burgess and McIntosh are right, the scientific establishment has fallen.

First, the age of the Earth. McIntosh thinks, on bliblical authority alone, that it is less than 10,000 years. We establishment fuddyduddies think, using mutually corroborating evidence from many sources including several different radioactive isotopes in the rocks, that it is about 4.6 billion years. I shall not say here why I think we are right and McIntosh wrong. Instead, I shall simply calculate the magnitude of the difference between the two estimates. We of the 'establishment' think the Earth is 460,000 times older than McIntosh's estimate. It is as though McIntosh estimated the height of a man as 6 feet and then accused the rest of us of believing that the same man was 460,000 times as tall, or 521 miles. Or, looking the other way, it is as though McIntosh looked at the establishment geographers' measurement of the distance from New York to San Francisco and claimed that the true distance from sea to shining sea was 460,000 times smaller, namely about ten yards. Maybe McIntosh is right and all the rest of us wrong. All I have done here is calculate how spectacularly wrong we would be, if McIntosh is right.

Turning now to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, this is a topic on which Andrew McIntosh, as Professor of Thermodynamics at Leeds, might be thought to speak with special authority. He is backed up by Stuart Burgess, Head of Bristol's Department of Mechanical Engineering, which is another subject in which thermodynamics is paramount and central. Both these men have stated their authoritative opinion that the theory of evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Nothing violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The great astrophyisicist Sir Arthur Eddington put it with memorable irony. "If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." It is not for nothing that C P Snow used familiarity with the Second Law as his litmus test of scientific literacy.

The Second Law states that, in a closed system without external energy fed in from outside, entropy always increases. Entropy is often said to mean disorder, but in some ways the word 'mixed-upness' (Willard Gibbs's coining) fits better. A familiar metaphor is that of a library. If the readers in a library always leave books lying around on the tables, or shove them back on the shelves at random, the library will become increasingly disordered. To remain in a state of order, it needs an energetic librarian, constantly working to put books back on their proper shelves, and constantly checking the shelves for misplaced volumes. It is not that libraries have a magnetic attraction or an urgent drive towards a particular goal state called disorder. It is simply that the number of states of a library that we would call disordered is much greater than the tiny minority of states that we would recognize as ordered. There are many more ways of being disordered than of being ordered. No work needs to be done to drive a library toward one of the many states that we call disordered. It will just happen, willy nilly, unless energetic work is done to prevent the otherwise inevitable slide downhill into disorder.

The Second Law recognizes a similar downhill slide towards disorder in any closed system such as the universe, which lacks a source of externally supplied energy. In a local region with externally supplied energy, on the other hand, we may see what look like reversals, but the stress must be on 'local' and 'externally supplied'. Life on Earth may evolve towards greater complexity and increased order, but this is only possible because of a massive transfusion of energy from the sun. To return to the library analogy, natural selection, the nonrandom survival of successful genes in gene pools, could be called the librarian of life. And the energy to power it comes ultimately from the sun. The overall trend of the thermodynamic river is still downhill. But a small tithe of the sun's energy is trapped by plants and used to power a trickle in the reverse direction. This reverse trickle is to be found not only in evolution but in the physiology of every individual organism, and in many chemical reactions. It is like a ram pump, which uses the energy of a flowing river to pump a small quantity of the water uphill.

Once again, it is not my purpose here to argue for the validity of the Second Law. It is undisputed. Nor is it my purpose to defend evolution against the charge of violating it. My purpose is again to convey the sheer magnitude of the error that Burgess and McIntosh are attributing to their hugely more numerous 'establishment' colleagues, who accept evolution and supply cogent arguments against the suggestion that it violates the Second Law. As with the age of the Earth, this is not some minor, recondite dispute among scientists. It is a monumental disagreement. One side or the other has got to be wrong, and not just slightly wrong but catastrophically, ignominiously, disastrously wrong. Evolutionists are accused of believing in a theory that violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If Burgess and McIntosh are right, almost all the scientists in the world should, in Eddington's words, 'collapse in deepest humiliation.' If they are right, evolution has to be ruled out, not because of some evidential problems or deficiencies as is common in science, but for a much more radical reason. Evolution, on their view, is completely and utterly ruled out for the same kind of reason as a patent inspector will reject a design for a perpetual motion machine without even looking at it. We earlier saw that McIntosh is, in effect, accusing the scientific establishment of believing that a man is 521 miles tall. Now we see that he also accuses us of believing something as absurd as that a river will run uphill. Maybe he is right on both counts, but the sheer magnitude of the error attributed to the rest of us should at least give him pause. When I say it is not a minor mistake we scientists are accused of, I am giving a whole new depth of meaning to the word understatement.


Richard Dawkins FRS is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. His books include The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable, The Ancestor's Tale and, most recently, The God Delusion.

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151. Comment #19287 by Hoddlwood on January 26, 2007 at 5:16 am

gimlibengloin - 149

Your post implies an absence of acumen on your part

You say: "The engineer is in a position to determine design as opposed to chance when he sees it"

This is typical creationist nonsense. Firstly no one suggests that chance creates organisms. If you think evolution is a chance process you are a fool. Much like McIntosh. Secondly, the characteristics of design that you mention is just the twisted incredulous illusion of the religious. Just because your mind is too limited to imagine a cause of complexity other than intelligent design does not mean such a cause is impossible, or even without evidence. We have the evidence, it is overwhelming.

My mention of McIntosh's lack of an O-level in biology was just light hearted way of saying that he lacks the understanding, at even the most basic level, of the evidence for evolution. Additionally, like you, he thinks it is a chance process. If he sat an exam in a school today and displayed this kind of 'knowledge' he'd fail. As he would if he said that the 'evidence' from the bible is infallible, even when contradicted by peer reviewed scientific consensus. Which brings me to...

Highlighting his belief in a 6,000 year old earth is an entirely appropriate criticism. Anyone who claims to be a scientist cannot, not for even a second, deny the evidence for a very very very old earth. To suggest that the evidence is wrong and it is actually only a matter of a few millennia in age is just plain stupid. There is no other word for it. If you believe this too you are merely making the same idiotic error. It is not bias that I demonstrate it is knowledge of the evidence. It is McIntosh who is biased (and you I assume) because he lets the Bible be the ultimate source of evidence for his beliefs. How scientific is that?

Intelligent atheists (is there any other sort?) don't deny evolution because there is too much evidence for it to be false. I don't believe in evolution because I am an atheist. I am an atheist because of evolution. You have got this the wrong way round entirely. Just because YOU start with the premise of a god and infer all from that does not mean we do the same with a premise that god does not exist. If evolution was false and intelligent design was supported by the evidence then I would believe in a god. Evolution has evidence; ID does not, so I don't. If you can't describe my position correctly then don't bother at all.


Re: 1% of fossils. By the way, 1% is perfectly ok to make judgements from, providing the sample is representative of the population of as a whole. Political pollsters make pretty accurate predictions of voting intentions with a far smaller sample than this. Additionally the sheer amount of organisms that have ever lived is staggering, so 1% of this number is still a very large amount. 1% of plenty is still plenty.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

152. Comment #19329 by gimlibengloin on January 26, 2007 at 8:37 am

No Longer Have Belief (150)

"yet fossilization is infact a rarity?.............you must be aware that 'Macroevolution' is just an extension of 'Microevolution' over time?"

Yes, but the argument about the problems of fossilization is based upon the paucity of evidence for evolution. You assume evolution and then explain its absence as "gaps" or "the difficulties of fossilization. We say no evidence for macroevolution because there never was any.

That Macroevolution is an extension of mico is an ASSUMPTION. Certainly no ones ever proved it. Please pay attention here: it wasn't observed 65 million years ago etc, it hasn't been repeated today in the lab, the living world can be classified into distinct groups-species, genus, family, order, class, phylum, kingdom and the same for the fossil record. Gradual evolution isn't seen. Why? BECAUSE ITS A HOAX. Why is dawkin's full of empty rhetoric? BECAUSE HE HAS NO EVIDENCE TO PRESENT. A perfect fit with the facts.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

153. Comment #19332 by gimlibengloin on January 26, 2007 at 8:52 am

Hoddlwood (151)
"This is typical creationist nonsense. Firstly no one suggests that chance creates organisms. If you think evolution is a chance process you are a fool."

You need to pay attention. Prof Dawkin's opening page of chapter 3 of The Blind Watchmaker defines evolution as a process of CHANCE. If you don't believe me READ it, THINK about it, and then REPLY.

"Secondly, the characteristics of design that you mention is just the twisted incredulous illusion of the religious. Just because your mind is too limited to imagine a cause of complexity other than intelligent design does not mean such a cause is impossible, or even without evidence. We have the evidence, it is overwhelming."

Its not about my poor imagination its about the lack of evidence. Face the facts.

"My mention of McIntosh's lack of an O-level in biology was just light hearted way of saying that he lacks the understanding, at even the most basic level, of the evidence for evolution."

McIntosh is a world class scientist. He understands the laws of chemistry and physics. he knows design when he sees it. Therefore, he can judge with expertise. He has spent three years studying a beetles defence at a very high level and he has read the position of evolutionists. he is far more qualified than most.

"1% of fossils"
I have to admit you've got a talent for making the most out of little evidence.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

154. Comment #19447 by Simon Packer on January 27, 2007 at 8:50 am

All this faith vs reason stuff really is a bit of a confidence trick for Dawkins. As has been said, there is no real evidence for macroevolution of any great implication whatsoever.
On the other hand, there is excellent ongoing evidence for the veracity of the Bible.
So don't site this ignorant cliche about blind faith vs rational thought. It is nonsense.

Other Comments by Simon Packer

155. Comment #19451 by Dogbreath on January 27, 2007 at 9:22 am

 avatar153. Comment #19332 by gimlibengloin "You need to pay attention. Prof Dawkin's opening page of chapter 3 of The Blind Watchmaker defines evolution as a process of CHANCE. If you don't believe me READ it, THINK about it, and then REPLY"

Hear's the word for word start to Chapter 3 of the Blind Watchmaker.

"We have seen that living things are too impossible and too beautifully 'designed' to have come into existence by chance."

So, I've read it Gimlibengloin, and you are a LIAR. Or STUPID. Probably both. It says the exact OPPOSITE of what you claim it says.

Other Comments by Dogbreath

156. Comment #19457 by sandipchitale on January 27, 2007 at 10:15 am

29 November 2006

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/media/news/mcintosh.htm

There is hope :)

Other Comments by sandipchitale

157. Comment #19461 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 27, 2007 at 11:42 am

>>Comment #19329 by gimlibengloin<<

>>That Macroevolution is an extension of mico is an ASSUMPTION. Certainly no ones ever proved it. Please pay attention here: it wasn't observed 65 million years ago etc, it hasn't been repeated today in the lab, the living world can be classified into distinct groups-species, genus, family, order, class, phylum, kingdom and the same for the fossil record. Gradual evolution isn't seen. Why? BECAUSE ITS A HOAX. Why is dawkin's full of empty rhetoric? BECAUSE HE HAS NO EVIDENCE TO PRESENT. A perfect fit with the facts.<<

I suggest you lower your tone. You picked one point from my article, yet ignored my other comments - I still say it is up to YOURSELF to provide evidence for God - which you can't. The Bible and Al Qur'an are nonesense. Why? For starters, there's the beating to death of people, for of all things, collecting sticks on Sunday. And if God did exist, do you think he'd give a hoot about Homosexuality? No - he'd be above it all. He wouldn't have a religion of his own and he'd view all of his creations with love. The fact that women and Gays are so despised in the Bible, is plain evidence that it is a fraud, designed for control by MEN WITH THEIR OWN PREJUDICES. No inspired work of a creator would contain such references as murder, death, stoning, rape, child-rape, torture, absurdity, nor any of the other ridiculous claims the Bible alludes too. Have you actually read the rubbish? The Bible is rubbish.

Isn't it marvellous too, the anger you Theists demonstrate in your postings? You complain that Atheists [Richard Dawkins, myself] can't provide you with a complete record of evolution, yet, where is YOUR evidence for God? Where is YOUR proof, then? The Bible is clearly rubbish. Simon earlier stated that the veracity of the Bible is full of evidence! I've never read such nonesense!

I was reading in New Scientist this week, of any area around the Antartic. 4 km's in thickness [if memory serves] is going to be drilled through. Scientists think an Asteroid may have hit 10^9 years ago, and would be larger than the one that hit the Gulf Region that killed the Dinosaurs. It is speculated that no life may be found there - making it a first for the Earth - and that it would have finished off 75% - 95% of the life on Earth at that time.

Now this is all very interesting. Mass extinctions are clearly a very regular process on this planet. Indeed, the poles reverse every 250,000 years - we had our last one 740,000 years ago, so we are overdue - and this could cause problems.

The point is, that the Bible mentions none of these events. Why? Why doesn't the Bible mention the Dinosaurs? Why doesn't the Bible give us a TRUE age of the Earth?

You see, Gim, I'm not closed minded. There could be a God. I have no problem with that at all. Truth be told, it would be lovely. Yet, what you claim, [i.e. The Bible] is too fairy-tale like for my conscience nowadays. I can't subscribe to the Abrahamic God, anymore than Thor, Zeus, Wotan, Vishnu et cetera. WHY do you?

Why do you not follow Zeus? Too ridiculous for you to believe in? Too silly? Yet, you want us to believe that 'Jesus' rose from the Dead and ascended to heaven. WHERE is his tomb? WHY wasn't it marked out properly by the early Christians? [If I'm wrong - please correct me, here]. Why is there no burial site, or plaque to mark where Jesus is supposed to have died? A man of such importance should have monuments. We have works from that time, of Roman leaders or Greek leaders, what of the Pharoahs? Yet there is nothing [that I'm aware of] that highlights Jesus's life - other than a dubious work called the Bible.

I'm Atheist now. Yes. God could exist. I'm not a fence-sitting Agnostic. Yes, Jesus most likely lived [why do you not follow Mormonism? Too silly for you?], but he was a good MAN not a God.

The questions you need to ask yourself Gim are:

1) Is there another alternative to God?
2) If God exists, would he have a religion?
3) If God exists, would he want me to follow an old doctrine BLINDLY, or would he want me to find him?
4) Are the morals of the Bible valid? Is it okay to beat people to death for working on Sunday?
5) If God exists - then science was given to us as a tool - so why not use science and find God? Maybe one day, science will prove or disprove God permanently?
6) Are Atheists 'fools' as the Bible declares? Has anything I've written here, come across as foolish? I'm not anti-Gay, racist, sexist, warmongering or a criminal - so how do you know Atheism is wrong? Because the Bible says so?
7) Do you think God would want his creations to argue over the finer details? If so, why did God create Professor Dawkins?
8) Why are you so ANGRY, so VERY, VERY ANGRY with Professor Dawkins? Is Faith and religion NOT ALLOWED to be scrutinized? Is it WRONG To ask questions? How do you know it's wrong? Because the Bible says so?
9) Do you really believe the Bible? I found it evil filth, to be honest. I found the morals in it lacking, the teachings evil [except Jesus - whose teaching were, admittedly, quite good] and some of the stories child-like. [i.e it is not permitted for women to talk in church - how bigotted is that?]

No. You're asking too much, my friend. Too much. I say the Bible is wrong - and if the creator exists, he'd want us to grow up and get along with each other. NOT throw planes into buildings. NOT to go on crusades and certaintly not to placard outside Hamish schools after children have been shot dead. You believers should hang your heads in shame.

Other Comments by NoLongerHaveBelief

158. Comment #19507 by Hoddlwood on January 27, 2007 at 5:20 pm

gimlibengloin - 153

Re: Blind Watchmaker - I've already READ it, I've THOUGHT about it and here is my REPLY: you are an idiot if you think that is what it means. Chance is the source of genotypic change; it is not the driving force of phenotypic change. Learn the theory before you critique it.

Re: lack of evidence – as a theist you require an unrealistic burden pf 'proof' for evolution. All that matters is that it makes accurate predictions. It does. What predictions does Intelligent Design 'theory' make?

Re McIntosh being a 'world class scientist' - Believing in a 6,000 year old Earth under the present evidence is mutually exclusive with being a 'world class' scientist. It is like saying that an atheist can be a 'world class' priest. You believe him because he says what you want to hear.

Frankly gimlibengloin, you are clearly a bit of a nutter so there no point in continuing. Bye bye.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

159. Comment #20249 by Simon Packer on February 1, 2007 at 9:01 am

Chance is the source of genotypic change; it is not the driving force of phenotypic change.

Maybe, but chance genotype change will produce chance phenotype change.

What is the likelihood of the modified phenotype having a change sufficient to meaningfully alter the organism but not to result in it being selected out? In other words, how would a reptile grow wings from scales, or a dolphin develop a blowhole, or a bombadeer beetle it's elaborate and as far as I know unique protection mechanism, via small steps which are likely to be disadvatageous deadweight until they happen to form into something useful? In the last two instances, the vast majority of chance processes would produce an organism which would die quickly before they got to a functional solution for breathing/deterence respectively.

Dawkins avoids talking about these issues as far as I can see, choosing 'proof scenarios' very very carefully. SJ Gould saw the extent of the problem honestly and postulated hopeful mutations, which I'm told Dawkins criticised strongly (rightly so).

By comparison, if I look at the Bible and study Justification by faith, I see amazing and delightful cohesion from Old Testament to New. The more I study the bookm o0f Romans, the more amazed I am by who Christ is and what He has done for me. I see prophesy over the Middle East nations fulfilled, including the reestablishment of Israel in 1948. I see Jews and Palistinians squabbling over the same path of land (Gaza) which David and Goliaths' armies fought over. I see Jeremiahs prophecies over the regions surrounding Israel fulfiiled with amazing accuracy. I certainly see a lot I don't yet understand, but I know someday I will.

The OT (Pentacheuch) law was given in a specific social context. It was given to show the Israelites that they couldn't keep it. It was given when the surrounding nations had reached great depravity. It's underlying principles, if not all it's details, are still valid. Most of the major political problems of Africa would probably resolve if Exodus 23v1-9 were embeded in the moral landscape as they are in the West. As far as homosexuality is concerned, it is wrong in God's sight. It is a sign of unproductive and perverted misuse of what God intended to be a special and wonderful process. It is a sign of Godlessness. However, God loves homosexuals and wants them to come to Christ for new life, a new life that will liberate them from this condition. I know homosexuals who have come through this process. Homosexuality can be a sign of underlying self-loathing and alientaion. There is also demonic activity associated with it. The answer is not to try and see it as legitimate, but to come in faith to the God who can make you whole.

God loves us all and wants us completely whole, content, satisfied, enjoying abundant life. To experience it, we must lay down our own life to take up his life in us. John 3v16, Romans 3v23, Romans 10v9,10.

Other Comments by Simon Packer

160. Comment #20308 by Hoddlwood on February 1, 2007 at 5:16 pm

Simon,
I won't enter a debate with you because:

a) you don't understand evolutionary theory, and not do you want to;
b) you have a grasp of the scientific method typical of the clinically deranged;
c) your posts mention the Bible more than the nature of this debate, i.e. the science behind evolution;
d) you are an intolerant homophobe whose obsession with what some members of society get up to in the privacy of their bedrooms is insulting and frankly disturbing;
e) and finally, you are unmistakably, unequivocally unhinged.

I never thought this possible, Simon, but I think you might actually be more insane than gimlibengloin.

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161. Comment #20309 by Hoddlwood on February 1, 2007 at 5:19 pm

Simon,
One last thing:

"Most of the major political problems of Africa would probably resolve if Exodus 23v1-9 were embeded (sic) in the moral landscape as they are in the West."

This statement of yours is racist and therefore offensive. Please go away, and if possible, have harm come your way.

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162. Comment #20388 by Simon Packer on February 2, 2007 at 6:19 am

Harm is unlikely to overtake me, Hoddlwood, as I have God's favour. I pray that you would come into it too, as for all men God desires fulness of blessing and satisfaction in life. It is for fellowship and blessing we were made by Him.

If you are specific in your critcism of my understanding of evolutionary theory, I'll examine what you say. Beyond the basics, there is little solid consensus to it anyway, other than parroting that everything is down to evolution.

I am not obsessed with sexual immorality and dislike hearing about it. I just know what God thinks about it.

I am currently living in South Africa and am in a fair position to evaluate some things about the continent. I see plus and minus points to the African culture and way of life. I am not a racist as I do not discriminate against people on the basis of their race.

Other Comments by Simon Packer

163. Comment #20395 by Hoddlwood on February 2, 2007 at 7:10 am

Simon,
You are a racist if you think that the lot of Africans will be 'improved' with a bit of Christian teaching. Regardless of whether you discriminate based on race, you clearly do based on culture. Either way you are a bigot.

"I am not obsessed with sexual immorality and dislike hearing about it. I just know what God thinks about it."

But you are obsessed. Apropos nothing you witter on about homosexuality, why? Clearly you think it immoral; that makes you a bigot. And an arrogant one at that if you think that you can 'know' what God is thinking. Do you actually think a mere mortal can 'know' what an omnipotent being is thinking? What an arrogant man you are (that was a rhetorical question by the way, please don't bore me with your crazy apocalyptic 'logic' for being able to know the mind of your made-up god).

You don't understand evolution and you also don't understand the scientific method and how it interprets evidence. This is illustrated in part by your constant mentioning of the bible in this thread when it is actually supposed to be about the scientific criticisms of evolution (if there are any).

So, as a challenge, please highlight what you understand evolutionary theory to be. Imagine I am a school pupil who is keen to find out what the atheist scientists view actually is. See if you can objectively represent a viewpoint that you disagree with, without mentioning god, the bible or sexuality based bigotry. I bet you can't.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

164. Comment #20404 by gimlibengloin on February 2, 2007 at 8:37 am

dogbreath (155)

yes, you've read it BUT UNCRITICALLY. Dawkins argues that living things are are too improbable to have come into existence by chance. But he then argues (same page) that they came into existence by a series of small chance steps. he then fools you into believing that somehow this is qualitatively different when in reality it isn't. Chance is still chance whether it is one big chance step or a thousand, million, billion, trillion small chance steps. Therefore, EVOLUTION is fundamentally a theory of CHANCE.

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165. Comment #20406 by Simon Packer on February 2, 2007 at 8:39 am

Hoddlwood, I am also a qualified science teacher, I did a PGCE at Warwick, and have taught evolution and shown Richard Dawkins videos to schoolchildren. I simply tell them briefly that I personally don't believe the theory really explains why we are here.
I understand the basis of competetive selection working on variation resulting from genetic combination and mutation. I have read some of the detailed expositions of evolutionary theory by Dawkins, Gould, Meyer, Jones.
I don't think you are reading my responses very carefully or thinking about them.

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166. Comment #20408 by gimlibengloin on February 2, 2007 at 8:52 am

NoLongerHaveBelief (157)

"I suggest you lower your tone. You picked one point from my article, yet ignored my other comments - I still say it is up to YOURSELF to provide evidence for God - which you can't. The Bible and Al Qur'an are nonesense. Why? For starters, there's the beating to death of people, for of all things, collecting sticks on Sunday. And if God did exist, do you think he'd give a hoot about Homosexuality? No - he'd be above it all. He wouldn't have a religion of his own and he'd view all of his creations with love. The fact that women and Gays are so despised in the Bible, is plain evidence that it is a fraud, designed for control by MEN WITH THEIR OWN PREJUDICES. No inspired work of a creator would contain such references as murder, death, stoning, rape, child-rape, torture, absurdity, nor any of the other ridiculous claims the Bible alludes too. Have you actually read the rubbish? The Bible is rubbish."

Hi, N.L.H.B,

Capital letters in my posts are used for emphasis not volume so there's is no need for me to lower my tone.
I have provided evidence for God. Ultimately life evolved or it was created. The Bible says God created organisms to reproduce after their own kind - this is what we see. The physical constants of the universe are so delicately balanced as to make life possible. Similarly the earth is at the right distance from the sun and the moon, tilted at the right angle, spinning at the right speed to allow for life and conscious life. Not only are they functional but we also have aesthetic values eg the size of the moon and its distance from the sun and earth to allow a total eclipse. This is evidence of design not chance.
Your statements about homosexuality only reflect your emotional bias. Homosexual genital acts are undeniably a perversion of human sexuality ie the male physiology is not compatible with another male's (even my atheistic biology teacher acknowledged that) and they are inherently dangerous and unhealthy. So of course God is concerned about it. It unfortunate that our government isn't.
"murder, death, stoning, rape"? Your going to have to provide the contexts for these. The scripture records peoples actions but doesn't necessarily approve. Your gonna have to do better.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

167. Comment #20409 by Simon Packer on February 2, 2007 at 8:52 am

I have only spent two years schoolteaching, prior to coming to SA to do Christian work. My degree is Applied Physics with Electronics (Durham 1982). I am trained in the scientific method. I know the difference between a theory which is proveable and falsifiable and one which is neither. For a theory to be useable in engineering, it must in nearly all cases be proven to adhere to an exact mathematical model. I have been involved in the design of Digital Microwave Relay Links, Switchmode Power Supplies, Avionics servicing assemblies and quite a bit else.

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168. Comment #20410 by gimlibengloin on February 2, 2007 at 9:01 am

(157)
"Why doesn't the Bible mention dinosaurs".

You need to think about your assumptions, there. Firstly 'dinosaur' is a modern word so you won't find it in the Bible. The ancient equivalent for a large lizard ie dragon is mentioned though.
Secondly, the Bible clearly describes dinosaurs in Job 40 and 41 when it refers to the Behemoth and the Leviathin. The context is that of real not mythical animals - goat, donkey, ox, ostrich, horse, hawk, eagle in chapter 39. The behemoth and leviathen are definitely genuine creatures and no known presently existing creatures match them. However, the description of the behemoth is exactly that of a large saurapod and the leviathen resemples that of the so-called 'super-croc'. Try reading the behemoth passage and tell me it doesn't describe a sauropod - "tail like a cedar tree"??

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

169. Comment #20411 by gimlibengloin on February 2, 2007 at 9:03 am

Hoddlewood (158)

see my answer to dogbreath (164)

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170. Comment #20412 by gimlibengloin on February 2, 2007 at 9:09 am

(157) NoLongerHaveBelief

See
www.answersingenesis.org/docs2007/0115angkor.asp

www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4840

for evidence of dinosaur/human coexistence

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

171. Comment #20424 by Hoddlwood on February 2, 2007 at 10:19 am

I do read your posts, Simon, and all I see is religion, not science. There is a difference.

You say: "I know the difference between a theory which is proveable (sic) and falsifiable and one which is neither. For a theory to be useable in engineering, it must in nearly all cases be proven to adhere to an exact mathematical model."

Science has to be provable does it? Nonsense; give me an example of theory that has been 'proved'?

Exact mathematical models? I was under the impression that all mathematical models are approximations of reality. The maths may be exact, but the model is not exactly like reality. Please provide an example of a mathematical model that exactly describes reality.

Evolution is falsifiable, find me a fossil of a rabbit in the Precambrian (or some such other incongruous fossil) and I'll accept it is rubbish. You have not, so I won't.

As I said, you don't understand the scientific method.


gimlibengloin: if you think dinosaurs 'walked' with humans then you are clearly crazy.

You should both keep posting here though, as every word of insane dogshite you spout just causes us rationalists no end of amusement.

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172. Comment #20427 by Hoddlwood on February 2, 2007 at 10:28 am

gimlibengloin: I went to one of your web references and found this quote that refers to a stone relief that is purported to represent a stegosaurus:

"However, even if the relief is found to be fraudulent, the position that man and dinosaurs lived together just thousands of years ago does not rest on this one evidence—it is based on the unchanging Word of God."

So what you have is an ancient carving that looks a bit like a dinosaur (or an elephant, depending in your credulity) but it does not matter if it is actually true because the word of god is infallible.

You are utterly insane.

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173. Comment #20589 by Lizzy on February 4, 2007 at 4:10 pm

I have spent a while reading through all the post here. Thank you to all the 'believers' who claim to be scientists for the laughter you have ignited in me.

It is quiet apparent, from reading all the above, that the religious of you are very defensive, and for some reason actually thing Richard Dawkins is some kind of leader for a new religious movement. How far you missed the point of his work and those, who thus far, see his line of reason and have knowledge of the subject areas he is concerned with.

I think from some of the posts you GOD FEARING people can see the value of evolution as and explanation of the complexity of biological organisms.
Don't be afraid of good science, or good scientists. There is no cult to Dawkin. Why? Because atheists are not concerned with ritual behaviour or the afterlife but with the far more pressing subject of the life we have. And as human beings with a sense of self we are also interested in what others have to say and are not intimidated by them (as you appear to be by us), but just feel sorry that you do allow yourselves to use the brain to the full extent of reasonable thought that evolution has brought it.

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174. Comment #21041 by Simon Packer on February 7, 2007 at 11:26 am

Hoodlwood:
You are right in that numerical models are not physical reality in themselves. They do however provide extremely accurate predictions of behavior, when used within their appropriate juristiction. The diode law for current in a pn junction, I=i(0)e^qV(k)/kT-1, the equation for the energy of a photon, E=hc/lambda, schrodingers eqn, heisenbergs matrix, maxwell's equations, etc etc etc etc etc....there are hundreds. Indeed it is the mathematical models, rather than the verbal conceptualisation, which give QM cohesion and credibility.
Now theories about the fossil record are qualitatively different from most physics theories. You are looking at high level organisation of matter into organisms. You cannot realistically model things here comprehensively at the organisational level of physics or chemistry.You are looking at a non-repeatable scenario, and one where people are not expecting you to make extrapolations into the future, or if they are, no-one is expecting to be around long enough to find out if you were right. The complexity of the evidence is such that you cannot numerically model it unless you are making huge assumptions and simplifications.
However, I agree that evolution would indeed be falsified if there was a huge proven anomaly in the fossil record. One possible one is that fossilised trees have been found vertically through supposed millions of years of rock strata. There are attempts to explain these. I find the obvious explanation the most likely. Of course the whole fossil record as far as it relates to evolution hinges on the reliability of dating techniques. Taking the accepted ages of the rock strata leaves evolution doing next to nothing for the first 3000 million years, then in the next 10-100 million years, the Cambrian explosion produces virtually all animal phyla. Above this we find other sudden diversifications happening over relatively brief time periods. For evolution to have produced the sophistication of life today with 4.6 billion years to work is difficult enough to believe, but with a few million to develop diversifed elaborate lifeforms seems profoundly unlikely.
It is for these and other reasons I reject the precept that evolution is the ultimate conclusion of reason applied to the question of origins. I also reject the precept that Christianity is all about blind faith. Those who liken Dawkins' belief in Darwinism to blind religious faith are merely pointing this out sucinctly.
Lizzy:
Using your brain to the full is not the same as receiving wholesale the opinions of a professor someone from a good university.

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175. Comment #21264 by gimlibengloin on February 8, 2007 at 10:21 am

Hoddlwood (171)

"gimlibengloin: if you think dinosaurs 'walked' with humans then you are clearly crazy."

Thats not an argument, though, Hoddlwood neither is it evidence. I have provided you with clear evidence that dinosaurs and humans coexisted which you have failed to refute.

"You should both keep posting here though, as every word of insane dogshite you spout just causes us rationalists no end of amusement."

I intend to keep posting here and I'm glad your at least getting something out of it.

Hoddlwood (172)says

"gimlibengloin: I went to one of your web references and found this quote that refers to a stone relief that is purported to represent a stegosaurus:

"However, even if the relief is found to be fraudulent, the position that man and dinosaurs lived together just thousands of years ago does not rest on this one evidence—it is based on the unchanging Word of God."

So what you have is an ancient carving that looks a bit like a dinosaur (or an elephant, depending in your credulity) but it does not matter if it is actually true because the word of god is infallible.

You are utterly insane."

I'm insane? Who's the one suggesting it looks like an elephant?
Again, I've provided evidence for dinosaur/human coexistence. Job 40 clearly refers to genuine creatures which cannot describe any organism alive today but which clearly describe large creatures that fit with what we know of dinosaurs from the fossils. Similarly we have that stone relief. YOU HAVE NOTHING. All you have is an argument from silence ie we have not found dinosaurs in the same fossil strata as humans therefore they didn't coexist. You then make this a proof of evolution which it isn't because even if dinosaurs and humans are found in the same strata then evolutionists will explain that as a blip or an example of evolution on the side.
Again, you need to provide EVIDENCE not INSULTS.

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176. Comment #21265 by gimlibengloin on February 8, 2007 at 10:28 am

Hoddlwood

heh, heh, heh Ive just remembered that your the one who described McIntosh as a "fool".

Lizzy says,

"I have spent a while reading through all the post here. Thank you to all the 'believers' who claim to be scientists for the laughter you have ignited in me."

Well, having read your post (along with Hoddlwood etc) I'm more convinced than ever that the insults and accusations you 'rationalists' throw is proof positive of the vacuousness of your faith. However, your welcome to explain why evolution is still superior to creation despite all the evidence to the contrary. I'll look forward to it.

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177. Comment #21417 by Hoddlwood on February 9, 2007 at 5:34 am

Simon,
I have decided to address your post point by point, riddled as it is with erroneous nonsense.


"You are right in that numerical models are not physical reality in themselves. They do however provide extremely accurate predictions of behavior, when used within their appropriate juristiction (sic)."
Indeed they do. Unfortunately you appear to have a narrow view of what constitutes a prediction that I often hear from religious, dogmatic physicists. For instance, evolutionary theory has made some very accurate predictions of genetic relatedness, based on the fossil record.


"Now theories about the fossil record are qualitatively different from most physics theories."
Thanks for pointing this out as I was under the labouring under the misconception that physics was exactly the same as biology. Seriously though, just because biology is different from physics does not make it less scientific. You appear to define science as that which is like physics and reject anything that does not fit this bill as automatically unscientific. You are wrong.
Evolutionary theory relies on evidence in a way a detective would instantly recognise. It is perfectly scientific to piece together evidence from the past to draw up a picture of how the past occurred. From that we can then predict the kinds of observations we will see if we look in new areas.


"You are looking at high level organisation of matter into organisms. You cannot realistically model things here comprehensively at the organisational level of physics or chemistry."
Are you suggesting that because evolution cannot model the behaviour of organisms at a molecular level it is therefore not a proper science? What about if it predicts the type of fossils found in the future? What if it predicts the nature of genetic relatedness between organisms thought to be related from the fossil record? What about the predictions it makes about bacterial response to antibiotics?
Just because the predictions of physics are more accurate does not mean that those of evolution are inaccurate. Remember that physics is the science of the simple and inanimate: by definition its predictions will be more accurate as the thing it measures is simple, inanimate matter. As you yourself have hinted, organisms are very complex, and consequently our model of their origin is looser than our model of the quantum world.


"You are looking at a non-repeatable scenario, and one where people are not expecting you to make extrapolations into the future, or if they are, no-one is expecting to be around long enough to find out if you were right."
I'm not sure that the geneticists who work on the fruit fly would agree with you. The predictive power of evolutionary theory is there to see if one works on organisms with short generation spans.
Oh, and please don't mention the creationist macro/microevolution nonsense again unless you can provide evidence of a mechanism that prevents what you call macro evolution, but allows micro-evolution. Microevolution plus time will inevitably lead to large (macro) changes in organisms. If you disagree with this then provide the evidence of a mechanism that prevents it. I've put this question to many creationists and they always ignore it, I wonder why?
Evolutionists of course, don't make this fatuous distinction because there is no real difference between micro and macro except the passage of time.


"The complexity of the evidence is such that you cannot numerically model it unless you are making huge assumptions and simplifications."
All models make assumptions. That is what makes them models. Additionally there is plenty of mathematical modelling in evolution/genetics. Does Hardy-Weinberg mean nothing to you? Your ignorance of a topic you criticise is astounding.


"I agree that evolution would indeed be falsified if there was a huge proven anomaly in the fossil record. One possible one is that fossilised trees have been found vertically through supposed millions of years of rock strata."
You what? I've not heard of this before so I can't comment unless I see the evidence. Please provide evidence for this and, while you are at it, provide evidence for the 'unreasonableness' of the current explanations of this phenomenon.


"There are attempts to explain these. I find the obvious explanation the most likely."
And what is the obvious explanation, that the bible is literally correct? The earth is only 6,000 years old? Yes, this is very 'obvious'...to the clinically stupid.


"Of course the whole fossil record as far as it relates to evolution hinges on the reliability of dating techniques."
It certainly does. These techniques, incidentally, rely on the same equations that you trumpet so loudly as an example of 'real' science. The equations of quantum mechanics explain the decay of radioactive materials to an extraordinary degree of accuracy. It is simply impossible for them to be wrong when it comes to the dating of the earth and yet correct in all other regards.


"Taking the accepted ages of the rock strata leaves evolution doing next to nothing for the first 3000 million years, then in the next 10-100 million years, the Cambrian explosion produces virtually all animal phyla. Above this we find other sudden diversifications happening over relatively brief time periods. For evolution to have produced the sophistication of life today with 4.6 billion years to work is difficult enough to believe, but with a few million to develop diversifed (sic) elaborate lifeforms seems profoundly unlikely."
Profoundly unlikely is it? Have you calculated the mutation rates coupled with the number of generations required to allow this and compared them with the available time span? Seriously, if you have any research that shows that such changes could not occur in the available time I'd publish them if I were you. If you do you'll surely win a Nobel Prize! I await with baited breath the fruits of your groundbreaking labours.


"It is for these and other reasons I reject the precept that evolution is the ultimate conclusion of reason applied to the question of origins."
The 'other reasons' being that it does not tie in with your religious views, presumably? That is fine as long as you are honest about it. Trying to pretend that it is a scientific objection is not going to wash with anyone but those people who are ignorant of the evidence.


"I also reject the precept that Christianity is all about blind faith."
Really? What 'evidence' takes your belief in a supernatural all-powerful being that we can't see, hear, touch, smell or taste beyond that of a blind faith position?


"Those who liken Dawkins' belief in Darwinism to blind religious faith are merely pointing this out sucinctly (sic)"
Dawkins, like all proper scientists, would be happy to admit that Evolutionary theory is wrong if contradictory evidence is found. He is on record saying this many times. He's even, on occasion defined what such evidence looks like. What evidence would you need to reject the god hypothesis? None I reckon.
Ours is not a 'blind religious faith', but yours is.



PS – because there is so much nonsense in what you say Simon, and because you are an ethnically bigoted homophobe this will be my last response to you. The sheer quantity of rubbish you speak takes too much time to disseminate and refute.

I also, to be honest, could not care less what you think. Evolution will stand and fall on the evidence and its predictive power, not on whatever bollox you lot come up with to fit your faith beliefs.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

178. Comment #21421 by Hoddlwood on February 9, 2007 at 6:09 am

gimlibengloin says,

"I have provided you with clear evidence that dinosaurs and humans coexisted which you have failed to refute."

"Job 40 clearly refers to genuine creatures which cannot describe any organism alive today but which clearly describe large creatures that fit with what we know of dinosaurs from the fossils"

The stone relief and a quote from the bible is clear evidence? Really?
Whatever was carved in that stone, it is not evidence that dinosaurs walked with humans. It is a drawing. If a future civilisation finds a copy of Jurassic Park on DVD will they think it is evidence of a Dino-park? Or will they just assume it is a work of fiction? Whatever they do think, it is apparent that the truth can be misconstrued by the clinically credulous.

RE: Insults - I think you are insane because of your fatuous definition of evidence. I did not intend to insult, just accurately describe your position. The same is true of McIntosh who believes in a young earth despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. This is the very essence of foolishness, ergo McIntosh is a fool.

To preserve both your feelings I could have couched it in euphemism but "what's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Or in your case, that which we call an idiot would gush as much gibberish.


PS in a similar vein to my post script to Simon Packer: I am not a mental health professional so I think it is best I do not continue to 'debate' with you for fear of exacerbating your condition.

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179. Comment #21430 by gimlibengloin on February 9, 2007 at 6:41 am

Hoddlwood says,

"The stone relief and a quote from the bible is clear evidence? Really?
Whatever was carved in that stone, it is not evidence that dinosaurs walked with humans. It is a drawing. If a future civilisation finds a copy of Jurassic Park on DVD will they think it is evidence of a Dino-park? Or will they just assume it is a work of fiction? Whatever they do think, it is apparent that the truth can be misconstrued by the clinically credulous."

What, short of finding humans and dino's buries together would be "evidence", Hoddlwood?
Surely, an engraving of a creature that resembles a known dinosaur ie stegasaurous is evidence that ancient humans knew of dinosaurs. If not why not?
Your comparison with Jurassic Park is fatuous. Firstly becasue the context and film history would make it clear that its a work of fiction. Secondly, because although it wouldn't be evidence of a dino' park it would be evidence that 2oth century man was knowledgable concerning dinosaurs.
I didn't claim Job 40 and Angkor was proof but I do claim it is evidence. NLHB asked why the Bible didn't mention dinosaurs. I have demonstrated that in the only way that it could mention them it has.

You have resorted to insults not out of a desire to be accurate but because you are incapable of refuting the evidence put forward.
The structure of the universe, solar system, and life shows that there was a designer.
It is evident that processes such as meiosic could not have arisen by step by step processes
Our knowledge of organic change shows that organisms do NOT evolve. One may get great variation within organisms. One may find that characteristics that were lost can be regained through mutation. But there is no evidence for thegaining of new info' and new characteristics by natural processes. Similarly the fossil record by the admission of evolutionists shows stasis - animals appear, persist for millions of years virtually unchanged, and then disappear but they don't evolve. I gave you evidence of this earlier but again you just cannot cope with the facts

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180. Comment #21448 by Simon Packer on February 9, 2007 at 8:17 am

Hoddlwood
Sorry about my spelling..Just in case you decide to read and reply..... Thanks for the responses, they do ultimately help me clarify my thoughts at times.

The micro/macro-evolution distinction I see as different from the one that keeps, for example, HIV cycling through different forms. I have been working with an HIV charity and I have seen the results of the PCR tests that are done for wealthy infected patients (this does not apply to any of the beneficiaries of the charity obviously, for whom either the Western Blot or basic diagnostic PCR test is done). The test can quantify exactly which mutations of HIV are in the blood. This enables the antiretroviral mix to be taylored appropriately. The HIV survival strategy I would attribute to natural selection.

For macroevolution the issue of minimum complexity of the extra capability added by progressive stages of selection needs looking at. (As I write I just feel like laughing out loud at how ridiculously unlikely the whole thing is) I have hinted at this in a previous post mentioning Dolphins and Bombadeer Beetles. This problem is dealt with at length, as you may know, by M. Behe in 'Darwin's Black Box', still, despite the critics, a superb refutation of Darwinism. I have looked at TalkOrigins stuff realting to this, and I found the arguments implausible. One, I remember, was 'Scaffolding', the idea that mutation throws up a whole load of structure, the redundant bits of which fall away by natural selection. Sorry, I just have to laugh! If you try hard enough, you can envisage some of the mechanisms, but the chances of it actually happening, especially without trace in the record, are vanishing.

As regards radioactive decay, having sung the exactitude praises of physics, this is one area where the quantitative understanding is extemely lacking. Beta decay is generally attributed primarily to variations in the electroweak force, and Alpha decay to QM tunneling. However we are nowhere near a predictive model, as you imply. Perhaps the whole of physics cohered in a different way in the past (Col 1v17).

At the end of the day, if you left out both evolution and the Bible, there are many pointers to a young earth, many to an old earth. Anyone who says otherwise is in my opinion dishonestly predjudiced. The polystrate trees I mentioned, look them up. Comets are in stable elliptical orbit around the sun, yet they shed matter too quickly to be more than a few thousand years old. The Oort Cloud has been invented to try and cover for this one, but be aware that there is no observational evidence for it at all. Yet if you read say 'Encarta' about it you get the impression it is known to be there. On the dinosaurs, in Carlisle Cathedral there is a tomb with apatosaurus type creatures engraved around the edge. The Bishop buried there died in 1496. Dinosaur fossils appear to have first been discovered in the 18th century. Th cathedral staff appear to find the whole thing embarrasing.http://www.enlightened.org.uk/dinosaurs.html

Obviously I believe the Biblical account is basically true, ie there is no desire to mislead, and as far as it conveys our spiritual position today it is true. I remain open minded as to whether the creation days were 24 hour as we understand it today. I believe the entire creation is the result of intelligent design, with the Biblical fall having had an effect on it.
God is good. He has a tender heart towards you and desires to satisfy you with good things, in a way which will make you thankful from the heart. He desires that you are free from guilt and anxiety. He has made this possible through the death and resurrection of His Son. The negatives we see in the world are the result of angelic and human rebellion, not the will of the Creator. However, they serve as a lesson to us of how bad life would be eternally without God. Hell, in fact.
If I look back at my life I could easily convince myself you are right and I am nuts, but, you see, I have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2v16). My mind is sound.

Other Comments by Simon Packer

181. Comment #21450 by Simon Packer on February 9, 2007 at 8:38 am

Dawkins says that faith is blind belief despite or even bacause of a lack of evidence. Like much of what he says, this is simplistic, blind rhetoric itself.
Christ came offering evidence, deliverence, healing, power to raise the dead.
I believe in part because I have seen miracles of healing, miracles of timing in Gods' provision, I have seen a clear demonic manifestation with my own eyes and ears, a woman writhing on the floor speaking with a sinister deep male voice.
I believe in part because despite Dawkins' ignorance, there are many issues vindicating the Bible for intelligent and knowledgeable people.
Now having established faith in Creator God, He leads you on in ways that do indeed require blind faith, for, for example, provision or guidance. We have a few such challenges at the moment, God has started to answer some of them. Each time He does, your faith grows. But God is reasonable and does not demand immediate wholesale blind faith, no questions allowed. Parts of the traditional organised church in places might, I know. God will entertain an honest enquirer. There are many such stories in the Bible.

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182. Comment #21454 by Hoddlwood on February 9, 2007 at 8:49 am

Simon,
Glad to hear you are both happy and confident of your correctness. As ever I disagree with everything you say but I'm now bored with going over the same arguments ad nauseum. Believe what you like, it is still bollox and you are still a bigot.

Oh, and being a young earther you are clearly as mad as McIntosh and...


gimlibengloin, who asks,

"What, short of finding humans and dino's buries together would be "evidence", Hoddlwood?"

An ambiguous carving and a subjective description in a fictitious text is not evidence. The evidence I would need to believe your crazy ranting would be fossils of humans and fossils of dinosaurs in rocks of similar ages. It does not even have to be at the same location, just the same age. We've found no dinosaurs in rocks younger than 60 million years or so and we find no hominids in rocks dated over 2/3 millions years old.

Obviously this is going to be ignored by you because you think the earth is 6,000 years old and humans were 'created' in their present form and not evolved from hominids...hence you are a nutter,


"Surely, an engraving of a creature that resembles a known dinosaur ie stegasaurous (sic) is evidence that ancient humans knew of dinosaurs. If not why not?"

Is it not beyond the wit of man to IMAGINE such a creature? Alternatively the picture may be of a known animal (e.g. an elephant), but misinterpreted by credulous nutcases like you? Either of these hypotheses is more likely than your fanciful proposal.


"I didn't claim Job 40 and Angkor was proof but I do claim it is evidence."

Yes, but no one else does. In science evidence is in part defined by consensus. It is the consensus amongst scientists (and most of sane society) that the bible is not evidence for anything.

The only consensus you have is that located amongst the inmates of the Asylum for the Terminally Bewildered...an institution that I believe you call the church.


"You have resorted to insults not out of a desire to be accurate but because you are incapable of refuting the evidence put forward."

Actually it is because I don't care what you think, but I do have fun trying to wind you up. Additionally, I genuinely think you are a loon. I have no other hypothesis that explains your ignorance of the facts, and your misinterpretation of evidence.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

183. Comment #21460 by gimlibengloin on February 9, 2007 at 9:04 am

Hoddlwood

"I have no other hypothesis that explains your ignorance of the facts, and your misinterpretation of evidence."

Still miserably failing to DEAL with the evidence again, eh?

"Alternatively the picture may be of a known animal (e.g. an elephant), but misinterpreted by credulous nutcases like you?"

Oh, sure, everybody has seen an elephant like that haven't they?
Still anything is preferable to the evolutionist than admitting the obvious isn't it?
By the way did you log onto the link that Simon Packer kindly provided for you in (180)?

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

184. Comment #21470 by Hoddlwood on February 9, 2007 at 10:12 am

Yes, I did go to Simon's link and it has signalled a damascian conversion.

I had no idea that the evidence for congruity between man and dinosaurs was so overwhelming. Obviously I must have been wrong all along, as these carvings clearly override all the tens of thousands of peer-reviewed papers outlining the evidence for an old earth, based as they are on equations with a proven track record of outstanding predictive value.

I've also had another look at the Angkor carving and I realise that it is ridiculous to assume that this figure is in anyway ambiguous and open to interpretation. It is now clear to me that there is no way that this creature represents anything other than a stegosaurus and that such a carving is clear evidence that these creatures walked with man.

It is clear to me that all I previously thought is a lie and that God must have done it all. I shall now go forth and persecute gays.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

185. Comment #21476 by gimlibengloin on February 9, 2007 at 11:19 am

Hoddlwood (184)

Hmmm, something tells me your not serious. Pity.
Still have a careful read of this short article and tell us what you think:

www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/396

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

186. Comment #21489 by Hoddlwood on February 9, 2007 at 12:28 pm

"Hmmm, something tells me your(sic) not serious. Pity.
Still have a careful read of this short article and tell us what you think"

I am dismayed that you doubt my conversion, Gimlibengloin. I have read your article with interest and I see clearly now that this single anomaly is overwhelming evidence that the thousands of contradictory results must be wrong. The clear explanation is that this result is the truth and all other radiometric analyses are false. Obviously all the thousands of geo-physicists are conspiring to hide their mistakes because they know what a grave error they have made. How foolish these evolutionists are, eh?

Besides, and as it says on the site, the old-earth data "contradicts the clear eyewitness chronology of the Word of God".

It amazes me that I once thought that God was fictional and not the glorious Creator I now know Him to be.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

187. Comment #21505 by DWBM on February 9, 2007 at 2:36 pm

What a strange energy policy these young earthers would have if they think that all fossil fuels can re-form in a few thousand years.

Other Comments by DWBM

188. Comment #21646 by gimlibengloin on February 10, 2007 at 10:07 am

DWBM (187) says,

"What a strange energy policy these young earthers would have if they think that all fossil fuels can re-form in a few thousand years."

I take it that your not a fan of George W Bush?

However, I think you're find that "young earthers" regard fossil fuels as the result of millions of tons of vegetation being ripped and churned up and subsequently laid down during the Global Flood of Genesis 6-9. Thats not really a policy that we could persue even if we so desired.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

189. Comment #21647 by gimlibengloin on February 10, 2007 at 10:11 am

Hoddlwood

"I have read your article with interest and I see clearly now that this single anomaly is overwhelming evidence that the thousands of contradictory results must be wrong."

Yes, but its far from being a "single anomaly" but is, instead, an example of a fundamental flaw in the dating methods. Why is it that when we use these methods on formations that we KNOW are recent the dates are always VERY wrong?

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

190. Comment #21777 by Hoddlwood on February 11, 2007 at 4:25 am

gimlibengloin –

I agree with you now. Why do you continue to doubt my conversion to the Light?

It is obvious that the reason why no one else has managed to repeat the findings of Dr Austin is that they seek to suppress the Truth. I am in total agreement with you that this single result is clear evidence of the flaws in the method. After all we know that scientific evidence never produces anomalies attributed to poor methodology or the bias of the researcher.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

191. Comment #21778 by Hoddlwood on February 11, 2007 at 4:29 am

A heathen that I know questions whether Dr Austin's work has ever been repeated by an independent researcher. I assumed that it has not, but as I am new to Creationism I may just be unable to find an example, can you help me convert the Unbeliever, gimlibengloin?

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

192. Comment #21789 by opposablethumbs on February 11, 2007 at 5:29 am

 avatarI find Hoddlwood's experience tremendously inspiring. But you know atheists, with that pernickety thing about evidence and reason ... now if only there actually were some hard evidence susceptible of independent confirmation, atheists would all be hoist by their own petard! (And nobody has even asked yet for an exact metric measurement - with photographs or some other comparable record of course - of the size of the angels and the size of the head of the pin ...)

Other Comments by opposablethumbs

193. Comment #21792 by Hoddlwood on February 11, 2007 at 5:37 am

Evidence and reason are the tools of the devil, opposablethumbs.

Other Comments by Hoddlwood

194. Comment #21866 by opposablethumbs on February 11, 2007 at 9:19 am

 avatarGet thee behind me, reason! Now if I could just set that to music .... I'm sure with a couple of thousand years of "persuasion" it would catch on. Oh, bother - it's already been done.

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195. Comment #22020 by Hoddlwood on February 12, 2007 at 11:06 am

gimlibengloin, you must help me.

I have told my science friends of my conversion and they just laughed at me. When I show them our irrefutable evidence they dismiss it.

How do I respond to those that say the drawings at Angkor and Carlisle Cathedral are merely FICTIONAL creatures borne of an artist's IMAGINATION?

One of them even said that just because we see pictures of UNICORNS in ancient books does not mean they actually EXISTED! Can you believe that? Next they'll be saying that even The Bible could be fictional, imagine that!

Also, my science friends say that Dr Austin's work at Mt. St. Helens could just be an ERROR; some of them have even suggested that he may be BIASED and has deliberately FABRICATED his data! Surely a man of God would never knowingly lie?

How do I respond to these so-called rationalists?

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196. Comment #22349 by DWBM on February 15, 2007 at 1:34 am

188.
However, I think you're find that "young earthers" regard fossil fuels as the result of millions of tons of vegetation being ripped and churned up and subsequently laid down during the Global Flood of Genesis 6-9.

Wow! Imagine comparing the fossil record with 1. the order of appearance of organisms given in Genesis and 2. the expected order of organisms if the whole fossil record was deposited (churned up) in the Flood.

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197. Comment #22355 by epeeist on February 15, 2007 at 4:01 am

 avatarThere would seem to be three possibilities with regards to the Bible

  1. God exists and the Bible is the true word of God.

    If this is the case then the Bible needs to be accepted as the ultimate source of truth and the basis of our morality. However, this means accepting it all, not just the bits you like. Cherrypicking is not allowed.

    This means accepting that when the Bible was written the Earth was flat and had four corners. It means accepting that at this period the Sun went around the Earth.

    It also means accepting that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. The consequence of this is that it is not just evolution that is wrong, but cosmology, geology, most of physics and chemistry. Essentially it means that the scientific method is invalid.

    You have to question the apparent capriciousness of a god who creates the universe a few thousand years ago but takes the effort (planting fossils and making light appear to come from billions of light years away) to make it look billions of years old. If such a god apparently loves us, why does he undermine our attempt to build a model of the universe.
  2. God exists, the Bible is the true word of God but man has created errors in it.

    In this case the actual words of the bible have been mistranscribed, mistranslated, and misinterpreted by man. This would mean that any contradictions and errors are the work of man rather than God.

    This would allow theologians to cherrypick the bits that they thought God had actually produced and dismiss the rest. Ties to particular periods rather than ineffability could be delegated to cultural influences.

    However, until all these errors have been removed the Bible is a testament to human fallibility. It therefore has no more claim to moral authority than Aristoltle's "Nichomachaen Ethics" or Spinoza's "Tractatus de intellectus emendatione".
  3. God may or may not exist, but the Bible is the work of man

    In this case we accept the work of scholars showing that the Bible is a mixture of history, borrowings from other cultures, fables and poetry.

    The same comment applies as in the previous post. The Bible does not have any pre-emininent claim to be the source of moral authority. Nor can it claim, unless there is sufficient primary evidence, to be a historical document of any veracity.

Given that one of the arguments in this thread is whether the Bible actually mentions dinosaurs could someone please tell me why it doesn't mention Brazil, anti-biotics or aeroplanes? And why does it seem to stop quite so long ago? You would think God would have time to keep his diary up to date.

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198. Comment #22435 by gimlibengloin on February 17, 2007 at 8:30 am

Hoddlwood (190)

"It is obvious that the reason why no one else has managed to repeat the findings of Dr Austin is that they seek to suppress the Truth. I am in total agreement with you that this single result is clear evidence of the flaws in the method. After all we know that scientific evidence never produces anomalies attributed to poor methodology or the bias of the researcher."

There seems to be an inconsistency here in your argument but it nicely illustrates your bias, Hoddlwood.
On the one hand you sarcastically critique the notion that evolutionists "suppress the truth" while on the other you sarcastically criticise the idea that scientific evidence never produces anomalies due to bias.
So, if I'm correct, you recognise bias in scientific research but you think that evolutionists are immune.

Hoddlewood (195)

"How do I respond to those that say the drawings at Angkor and Carlisle Cathedral are merely FICTIONAL creatures borne of an artist's IMAGINATION?

One of them even said that just because we see pictures of UNICORNS in ancient books does not mean they actually EXISTED! Can you believe that? Next they'll be saying that even The Bible could be fictional, imagine that!"

Well, the obvious difference is that in the case of Angkor and Job we have descriptions of creatures that correspond exactly with creatures that we know existed but according to evolution never coexisted with man. You have to explain this correspondence between the description and reality. Surely the answer is that the artist saw the creatures he described.
In the case of the unicorn this is simply a horse with a horn so its simply a matter of putting two things together. If we knew from the fossils that unicorns did exist then it would be different, wouldn't it?

"Also, my science friends say that Dr Austin's work at Mt. St. Helens could just be an ERROR; some of them have even suggested that he may be BIASED and has deliberately FABRICATED his data! Surely a man of God would never knowingly lie?"

I agree that Austin wouldn't lie and I agree that the data could be wrong. The same has to be admitted of all science. However, the opponent has to demonstrate that it is wrong not simply assert "error" on the basis that one doesn't like it.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

199. Comment #22436 by gimlibengloin on February 17, 2007 at 8:37 am

Hoddlwood

See also
www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1541

and

www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3837/106

Regards,
GBG

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

200. Comment #22440 by gimlibengloin on February 17, 2007 at 12:19 pm

epeeist (197)