









A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion
102. Comment #15102 by Vardu on December 28, 2006 at 11:28 pm
There have been some brilliant posts registered here on just how morality may have evolved...103. Comment #15108 by Jared on December 29, 2006 at 12:59 am
104. Comment #15121 by nickthelight on December 29, 2006 at 3:28 am
105. Comment #15123 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 3:44 am
106. Comment #15140 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:02 am
107. Comment #15144 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:11 am
108. Comment #15154 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 7:10 am
Jonathan Dore wrote:Once I have made the leap that burning down someone's house is desirable, why should I feel obligated to allow the same freedom to others? When the alpha-male chimp threatens, punishes, and dominates the other chimps, we don't (or shouldn't) wring our hands about how he really is undermining the cooperative social contract among the apes. I would not want to live under similar social rules as the chimps. But I have no problem with being the alpha-male.
That logically necessary reciprocity seems to me to be a pretty firm basis for the prescriptive injunction that one *ought* not to burn down one's neighbour's house.
I guess you could summarize my whole point by saying that reciprocity is not logically necessary. Any proofs for the logical necessity of reciprocity are like proofs for god's existence, i.e., based on unfalsifiable, mystical, or supernatural premises, and therefore, most probably false.
As a species that has evolved in social groups, our genes are telling us that respecting the norms of social behaviour, in which competition is restricted by cooperative bounds, is essential to maximizing, on average, each individual's chances of survival.
I completely agree that we can learn much from our evolutionary heritage about what is most likely to make us happy, contented, primates. (But given that violent chimps are our closest relatives, I am not so sure we will like everything we learn.)
But the flip side of the coin is that evolution depends on mutations and differences between individuals. Whatever the "average" is for any given property, such as height or propensity to enjoy fire, there will be variations in a population. We undoubtedly have inherited tendencies toward social order. As a primate who enjoys living with a certain amount of social order, I am very glad about that. I am very happy that others feel constrained, because it suits my purposes. I even enjoy feeling constrained myself, in some ways, because that gives me a sense of belonging and contentment that is wired into my genes. But there are more than a few times that I would like not to be quite so constrained. A nice big fire now and then would suit me well.
I am not arguing that all social norms should be abolished, just that they don't apply to me. I don't really care that if everyone thought like this, society would break down because there is no way that everyone will think like this. People are too wedded to their myths. So I am safe. Altruism is real. A requirement for reciprocity is fantasy. RD is smart enough to understand this.
Nietzsche's reaction to the death of an external authority figure for morality has always struck me as being like the reaction of a teenager...
Nietzsche was a much deeper thinker than RD. He understood the implications of what he wrote, in their full, tragic glory. If anything, RD is the adolescent in this story.
Other Comments by Binx Bolling
109. Comment #15157 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 7:50 am
110. Comment #15158 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 7:50 am
So like our sweet tooth or desire for companionship, our moral sense is an effective universal quality resulting from the complex historical processes that have brought us here.I completely agree that our moral sense is real and is equivalent to our sweet tooth. But although both the moral sense and sweet tooth are programmed into us, we are not obliged to conform to either one. In fact, once I understand that my sweet tooth is causing me to get fat, I can suppress it and go on a diet. Similarly, once I understand that my feelings of guilt are inhibiting me, I can suppress them and burn houses.
Other Comments by Binx Bolling
111. Comment #15160 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 8:02 am
112. Comment #15165 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 8:48 am
JohnC wrote:113. Comment #15168 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 9:09 am
114. Comment #15171 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 9:13 am
Kingsaurus wrote:115. Comment #15174 by Kingasaurus on December 29, 2006 at 9:49 am
---I understand that my own actions can have negative social repercussions that may affect me in undesirable ways. But there is no need to posit the existence of mystical concepts such as duty, responsibility, evil, to fill the gaping hole that is left when we kick god out of the picture.---116. Comment #15175 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 9:53 am
JohnC wrote:117. Comment #15177 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 10:09 am
118. Comment #15180 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 10:18 am
Kingasaurus wrote:119. Comment #15181 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 10:29 am
JohnC wrote:120. Comment #15187 by Kingasaurus on December 29, 2006 at 11:43 am
---My response would depend entirely on whether I have evidence that God exists. It would not depend on my observations of the positive or negative effects that belief in God has in society. Pretending that something exists just so we can all benefit is, in a word, a delusion. This is the sense in which duty and responsibility are mystical. They do not actually exist.---121. Comment #15191 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 12:21 pm
122. Comment #15193 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 12:35 pm
Kingasaurus wrote:I have pretty good evidence that people in a society will be happier if nobody in that society commits arson or murder or theft.
There are many legitimate, non-mystical, motives for altruism, compassion, and adherence to rules. There are also many legitimate, non-mystical, motives for doing the opposite.
For example, suppose I am Josef Stalin and I want to take power in Soviet Russia because doing so confers many benefits on me. I see an opportunity to eliminate my political opponents and seize power. Should I take it? Once I have power, should I ruthlessly purge my enemies and do whatever else it takes to maintain control? Since I am Josef Stalin, the answer is yes. You want to call my actions immoral and irresponsible because they hurt many more people (hundreds of millions) than they help (me). If I were you, I might say the same thing. But I am Josef Stalin. If I cared about other people the way you do, I would not be in power. I understand your attempts to stop me. But I have arranged things so that I do not have to worry about what you or anyone else thinks.
How do you respond to Josef Stalin? Is he being irrational? Can you give him any rational, non-mystical, reasons to change his behavior?
We come full circle back to the argument that John Cornwell made in his article. Atheistic ideology, when taken to its logical conclusions, does lead straight to Stalin. Nietszche knew it. Dostoyevsky knew it. Stalin knew it. Solzhenitsyn knows it. Dawkins should know it.
Other Comments by Binx Bolling
123. Comment #15226 by seals on December 29, 2006 at 6:29 pm
124. Comment #15269 by G Bile on December 30, 2006 at 5:01 am
Binx Bolling talks about 'morality' and his penchant to 'burn' things. At one point he says (comment #85):125. Comment #15328 by Orion on December 30, 2006 at 12:04 pm
Binx: '"Either God exists or s/he doesn't."126. Comment #15332 by John Phillips on December 30, 2006 at 1:04 pm
Binx Bolling: "In your readings, just watch out for the sleight of hand these guys use when discussing a biological basis for morality. They love to present lots of plausible theories about how altruism emerged from evolution. Then they wave their hands and magically produce statements that depend upon a leap of faith. None of them squarely faces the moral abyss that beckons them."127. Comment #15342 by Ian Armer on December 30, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Cornwell is an idiot and he makes his 'God' sound an even bigger idiot. That's some going!128. Comment #15348 by goddogit on December 30, 2006 at 3:22 pm
I hope I am not pointing out the too-obvious.129. Comment #15440 by Binx Bolling on December 31, 2006 at 10:37 am
Johns Phillips wrote:130. Comment #15441 by Binx Bolling on December 31, 2006 at 10:43 am
Orion wrote:131. Comment #15459 by Binx Bolling on December 31, 2006 at 1:53 pm
G Bile wrote:132. Comment #15514 by Jonathan Dore on December 31, 2006 at 11:31 pm
Binx Bolling comment 110: "Once I have made the leap that burning down someone's house is desirable, why should I feel obligated to allow the same freedom to others? When the alpha-male chimp threatens, punishes, and dominates the other chimps, we don't (or shouldn't) wring our hands about how he really is undermining the cooperative social contract among the apes. I would not want to live under similar social rules as the chimps. But I have no problem with being the alpha-male."133. Comment #15525 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 1, 2007 at 3:48 am
I'd just like to wish everybody in here a happy new year - and especially to Professor Dawkins, whose latest work The God Delusion is a truly brilliant work! I am thoroughly enjoying this book and would like to congratulate the Professor for a fine work. A work so good, that Theists seem attracted to this website in order to blub at Atheists about how we are wrong and how evil Richard is! HA HA HA!134. Comment #15535 by John Phillips on January 1, 2007 at 6:07 am
Binx Bolling said "The leap of faith does not concern the origins of our altruism. That clearly derives from our selfish genes. The leap of faith I referred to was the jump RD and others make from describing the origins of our altruism to assigning some kind of binding duty to that altruism, using such judgmental language as "right," "wrong," "good," and "evil.""135. Comment #15545 by Binx Bolling on January 1, 2007 at 7:47 am
John Phillips wrote:136. Comment #15647 by Binx Bolling on January 1, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Jonathan Dore wrote:137. Comment #15727 by Kingasaurus on January 2, 2007 at 9:42 am
Well, color me surprised.138. Comment #15733 by Binx Bolling on January 2, 2007 at 10:31 am
Kingsaurus wrote:139. Comment #15739 by Kingasaurus on January 2, 2007 at 11:55 am
Look, you're the one claiming there can't be any "ought" without a supernatural referent. If people routinely abuse and take advantage of others whether they adhere to supernatural beliefs or not, I'm not sure what practical difference it makes.140. Comment #15754 by Binx Bolling on January 2, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Kingsaurus wrote:141. Comment #15756 by macronencer on January 2, 2007 at 3:04 pm
...I have just one serious quarrel with the book, which is the difficulty of reading it in bed. I note that at nearly 4kg it is a whole kilogram heavier than my hardback F N Robinson edition of The Works of Chaucer, which has twice as many pages and is printed on high-quality paper.
142. Comment #15760 by Kingasaurus on January 2, 2007 at 3:51 pm
----The first statement is true. The second is false.----143. Comment #15763 by Binx Bolling on January 2, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Kingsaurus wrote:144. Comment #15876 by seals on January 3, 2007 at 12:57 pm
101. Comment #15099 by Kingasaurus on December 28, 2006 at 11:02 pm
-----As a species that has evolved in social groups, our genes are telling us that respecting the norms of social behaviour, in which competition is restricted by cooperative bounds, is essential to maximizing, on average, each individual's chances of survival. Actions that offend the sense of fairness do so because they violate that principle of reciprocity...---Yes. It's also worth mentioning that if you are going to deny genetic/evolutionary influence in these areas, you're going to have to explain the behavior of large numbers of non-human social species, which have their own rules of behavior in which altruism is quite common - not to mention the ostracizing or punishing the non-conformist who engages in destructive behavior that makes life for the rest of the group more difficult.
If there is an evolutionary reason why the grouper doesn't devour the small cleaner fish once it finishes cleaning inside the grouper's mouth, it really isn't a big stretch to look for biological reasons why hypothetical societies which would allow anarchical murder and wanton, purposeless destruction just because its members "feel like doing it" just aren't going to be very successful.
Other Comments by Kingasaurus