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Sunday, December 24, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

by John Cornwell as God, Times Online

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2517335.html

Professor Richard Dawkins has caused a sensation this year with the runaway success of his anti-religious book The God Delusion. Here, through the pen of John Cornwell, the Almighty delivers a counterblast

jc as god

Naturally I can appear to my creatures in any form I choose — burning bushes, pillars of fire, bearded Jewish patriarchs, even bread and wine. So imagine Me, if you will, in the guise of a simple monk. Does that surprise you? I have chosen to pen this letter in the cloister where a century and more ago the Austrian priest-scientist Father Gregor Mendel discovered the genetic laws of heredity. Cross-breeding different coloured peas, he performed a series of remarkable experiments that became the basis of the modern age in biology.

Richard, you know better than anybody that Father Mendel was both a scientific genius (to whom you are immensely indebted as a scientist) and a deeply religious man. Mendel was living proof that faith in Me and knowledge of science are not in competition. I hope to persuade you that while science and religion are two very different discourses, they can coexist in harmony.

I've read your book, The God Delusion, which calls for the elimination of religion and belief in Me. I do not wish to berate you; after all, as a poet once wrote, "hatred of God may bring the soul to God". For what many atheists loathe is not God at all but the false representations of Me.

But consider the wise warning of GK Chesterton. When people cease to believe in God, they come to believe not in nothing, but in anything. It's that anything that concerns Me. You recommend in almost every line of the book that your readers should replace Me in their hearts and minds with you.

LET ME begin with your overall thesis. You insist that all claims for My existence are "hypotheses about the universe", and hence the exclusive province of science. What of those traditional rational "proofs" for My existence? Popular to this day is the argument for a Grand Designer God to solve the riddle of nature's exquisite complexities. Could the parts of a watch, or a Boeing 747, fall into place by pure chance? How much less likely the human brain, or a water beetle! Following Charles Darwin's Origin of Species, however, you explain, eloquently and persuasively, how the mystery of design is sufficiently settled by the bottom-up blind laws of evolution.

You then allow that anthropologists are competent to describe what religion is and what religionists do. But only Darwin's theory of evolution, you insist, can offer an ultimate explanation for the true origins of religion.

So you relate what you believe to be a parallel in natural history. A moth navigates by the light of the moon or the stars, but is sometimes attracted by the same conditioned reflexes into a candle-flame. These accidents of self-incineration, you tell your readers, are a "by-product" of a programmed behaviour that is normally advantageous. Religion, you speculate, is also a harmful by-product of an infant's disposition to believe fairy tales that are beneficial. Believing in a big bad wolf may prevent a child straying into the woods. But stories of the hell fires that await naughty children are received with the same credulity in inevitable consequences. Thus religious fictions, with a propensity for fear, bigotry, hatred and violence, take hold of a child's psyche and are passed from generation to generation.

The tragedy for most believers, you argue, is their failure to understand that all are free to reject the religion taught by their parents. You end with the heartening news that once God has been abandoned, "a proper understanding of the magnificence of the real world can fill the inspirational role that religion has historically — and inadequately — usurped".

Without commenting in depth on these arguments, it must be said at once, Richard, that most sensible theologians have no problem with Darwin's theory of evolution, nor with much of what you yourself have written on the wonders of the natural world. You are pushing against an open door. Nor are most children so credulous as to actually believe that they will be eaten by bears if they tread on the pavement cracks. They can, and do, distinguish between the real and the imaginary at a very early age. Most human beings, moreover, are capable of being moved both by nature and the inward stirrings of the spirit without a sense of mutual exclusion.

Let Me start, though, by commenting on the sources you have marshalled for a work that attempts to embrace a vast scope of philosophy, religion, anthropology, and theology.

You have relied far too much on the nice but facile philosopher, Richard Swinburne of Oxford, for Christian theology. On Islam you cite one book, Ibn Warraq's caustic Why I am not a Muslim. Nothing on Judaism, Confucius, Buddhism, Hinduism, or Sufism. Little or nothing, moreover, on your philosophical atheist antecedents since the 18th century. And in support of many amateurish generalisations on anthropology you have mainly resorted to that decaying old monument, Frazer's Golden Bough.

It was no surprise to read Professor Terry Eagleton's acidulous observation: "Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology."

But then, what need of scholarship when in possession of a superior intellect like yours! You are described on the book's dustjacket as "one of the world's top three intellectuals". Not a peer-group verdict, but the opinion poll of a small-circulation, avowedly atheistic, British monthly.

There was a time when Oxford dons prided themselves on modesty — the more learned, the more unassuming. But your self regard, Richard, has assumed bizarre proportions, privately and publicly. Witness the admission that you allowed Mrs Dawkins, the former Lalla Ward of Doctor Who fame, to declaim out loud The God Delusion in its 400-page entirety; not once but twice. As you usefully inform your readers, such a service is best performed by a partner with appropriate speech and drama training.

YOU write that you don't regard religion to be a "proper field in which one might claim expertise". Which is presumably why you saw no reason to acquire any knowledge relating to the topic. Yet you concede that there are eminent scientists who disagree with you, and you cite the eminent cosmologist Professor Sir Martin Rees.

"The pre-eminent mystery," Rees has stated, "is why anything exists at all.

What breathes life into the equations, and actualised them in a real cosmos. Such questions lie beyond science, however; they are the province of philosophers and theologians."

Yet you dismiss this gracious acknowledgment as folly. What fuels your contempt of theology, moreover, is the profound prejudice you once articulated in an earlier work, Climbing Mount Improbable. Let's take a look.

You describe how you attended a lecture about figs in poetry, religion, anthropology. "This kind of thing," you write, "is the stock-in-trade of a certain kind of literary mind, but it provokes me to literal mindedness." The "real poetry", the "real metaphor" lurking in the fig, you argue, is its "Darwinian grammar and logic", Botanical facts are true, whereas the other stuff is made up and hence untrue.

So why not propose, Richard, that King Lear by William Shakespeare (the Bard being of that "certain kind of literary mind" you so much depore) be substituted with psychiatric case notes on senile dementia? Or that Wordsworth's Daffodils be swapped for a horticultural fact sheet? You condescend elsewhere to permit a role for literature in your science-dominated utopia, provided that it is confined to anodyne tropes about "ineffable" sunsets and "sublime" landscapes. But your dogmatic separation of true and false in literature could not be more plain. "The only difference between The Da Vinci Code and the gospels," you pronounce in your new book, "is that the gospels are ancient fiction while The Da Vinci Code is modern fiction."

Logicians characterise the inherent fallacy of such statements as the "undistributed middle". The Da Vinci Code, which is not factual, is pulp fiction; the gospels are not strictly speaking factual, therefore the gospels are pulp fiction. This freshman howler masks an even deeper, and more pernicious, error. You are thereby declaring that there is no sense in which storytellers, poets, dramatists, evangelists can utter truth. Never mind the profound verities of My Son's Sermon on the Mount, what about Chaucer, Shakespeare, Dickens, Dostoevsky . . . the entire canon of world literature. I smell bonfires! On the matter of truth and bonfires, you are right to indict religious believers who have perpetrated persecution and cruelty in my name, both past and present! But would you deny the good performed down the ages by religious believers of every kind? And would you deny the evil done in the name of science and atheism in recent history? How do you see a world without religion? "If the demise of God will leave a gap," you proclaim, ". . . My way includes a good dose of science, the honest and systematic endeavour to find out the truth about the real world."

And you invoke John Lennon's famous song Imagine to conjure up the paradise on earth that will ensue. "Imagine a world with no religion. Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts . . . no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as 'Christ-killers', no Northern Ireland Troubles . . . No Taliban to blow up ancient statues."

Oh please, Richard! Your list, which includes conflicts that are blatantly secular, omits two catastrophic eras in recent history: Stalin's Soviet Union, and Hitler's Germany. So how do you attain a world without them? Are you not aware, Richard, that Stalin's brand of communism found its origin in an idea called dialectical materialism — a self-proclaimed "scientific" and atheistic ideology? Did you never learn that Marx, who characterised religion as the "opium of the people", conjured up a dream of the perfectibility of humankind according to mechanical laws that operate like those of the natural sciences.

Marxist-Leninism, it is well known, provided a powerful impetus for murderous purges of political dissidents and religious believers alike. Under Stalin, Russia saw the devastating implementation of sociobiological principles based on Lamarck — the inheritance of acquired characteristics — legitimising strategies of enforced collectivisation and ruinous systems of agricultural production.

Meanwhile Hitler's appeal to bio-politics evoked images of Jews as parasitical invasions of the host body of Germanhood. Jews were responsible, Nazi propaganda claimed, for actual epidemics in the east requiring immediate quarantine — early euphemisms for the ghettos and the camps.

In the pathological paradox that attends science as salvation, the purveyors of death paraded their cynical pretensions to preserve human life. Which is why I disapprove of your characterisation of religion as a kind of cultural virus, which you call a "meme". In the gleeful claptrap generated around this unproven article of pseudo-scientific faith, religious belief has already been characterised as a viral infection requiring drastic solutions.

Are you not aware that Hitler yearned for religion's capitulation to science? In his rambling table talk he declared that "the dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. When understanding of the universe has become widespread . . . then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity". Familiar, Richard? Hitler and Stalin are a crucial test. In your opinion they were merely unfortunate by-products, the necessary "saw-tooth" of history, you call it, as science and encroaching atheism escort the human race ever onwards and upwards. But you are evidently irritated by suggestions that Hitler is a monstrous exception. Is it because the phenomenon of Hitler threatens your facile optimism? "Hitler's ideas and intentions were not self-evidently more evil that those of Caligula — or some of the Ottoman sultans," you pronounce in an attempt at moral equivalence that wobbles on the brink of mitigation.

Ponder too, Richard, the strange logic of the claim that militant atheism is by definition innocuous. "Hitler and Stalin shared atheism in common," you write. "They both also had moustaches, as does Saddam Hussein. So what?" All three wore socks and underpants, but such banalities betray once again your pitiful lack of background reading.

Hitler cynically played fast and loose with religion, to manipulate the German people. Whenever and wherever he deemed religionists a threat to his own self-idolatry he persecuted them and purged them. Apart from the Jewish genocide, he persecuted and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Christians, Protestant and Catholic, for their faith.

Stalin's atheism, moreover, was no mere private foible, either. It was a violent feature of his ideology. He oppressed, imprisoned, tortured and murdered the Orthodox faithful, destroying their icons and their churches, throughout the length and breadth of Russia. Mao Tse-tung, another enthusiastic atheist, followed suit, and his anti-religious policies continue to this day in China.

Your failure to acknowledge, still less explore, the consequences of triumphalist atheistic science as ideology undermines your claim to seriousness, Richard. But then, you seem to have a poor grasp of totalitarianism and religious fundamentalism alike, and how they relate to an absence of respect and freedom. Notably missing from your reading is the late John Rawls's study of political science, A Theory of Justice. It might have compensated for the evident absence in your book of studies in political philosophy from Ancient Greece to the present day.

Rawls made a telling distinction between two paths to the "good society". One allows for individuals and groups to choose their own beliefs and values (obviously within the law); the other insists that beliefs and values should be enforced top-down. The former, Rawls defines in the political sphere as a pluralist society; the latter as a totalitarian. There is a corresponding divergence within religions: tolerant faiths that respect difference, and fundamentalist faiths that do not.

IT IS in the context of these two paths, Richard, that you betray both political and historical naivety. You argue, for example, that the "secularism" of the founding fathers of America was a bid to weaken the hold of religious belief on society. Hardly. The genius of the American proposal was its insistence on a state (in other words governmental) secularism that guarantees religious freedoms, including atheism, in a pluralist society.

The importance of understanding, and conserving, that historic experiment could not be more urgent today as President George W Bush attempts to hijack the protective neutrality of America's state secularism with evangelical convictions. Which brings Me to the issue of respect, which, you say, religion does not deserve.

The question is not whether you respect the content of people's faith, Richard, it is whether you respect their right to adopt freely chosen beliefs, within the law, without insult and persecution. There is no more powerful incentive for universal respect than the proposition that all without exception are children of God and find their ultimate destiny in Me.

There are times when a fine line exists between persecution and satire, especially when a powerful majority makes mockery of all that is held sacred by an insecure, hard-pressed minority. But never let it be said that I am unable to enjoy a joke at My own expense! Which brings Me to the debate over creationism, on which you wax heatedly. To adopt such beliefs into the science curriculums of schools would of course be a gross category error. Theology is theology, and science is science, as Father Mendel would have agreed. But you yourself consistently make a striking category error by confusing creationism and the doctrine of creation held by many faiths.

The matter is straightforward: Biblical creationists believe that the Book of Genesis is a source of factual information about the origins of the world. They teach that I literally created all things in a series of instantaneous acts over six days some 5,000 years ago. Most sensible believers in the book subscribe without demur to Darwin's theory of evolution while reading Genesis in the light of the mystery so well articulated by Martin Rees — "Why is there something rather than nothing?" And now, I am bound before I finish to comment on what you call the God Hypothesis. You define God as "a superhuman, supernatural intelligence which deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us". This is typical of militant atheists who constantly define me purely in terms of the criteria of science alone, rather than in terms of a quest for spiritual contact that becomes a reciprocal loving relationship between creature and creator.

Hence you reduce Me by declaring that "any creative intelligence, of sufficient complexity to design anything (for that is what you think I do all day!) comes into existence only as the end product of an extended process of gradual evolution."

Richard, when theologians attempt to describe My reality (My Mind, say) they are all too well aware of the trap known as anthropomorphism: of treating Me as a human creature. Yet it seems pointless to remind you that thousands of studies have been published on this theme down the centuries. So your consistent image of Me resembles nothing so much as a megalomaniac designer-scientist. Should I say it? Your God resembles a Great Big Professor Dawkins in the sky!

THE sun has gone down and the monks are chanting vespers. I'm reminded, Richard, that you were once a choirboy. Fancy.

The tradition of choral evensong, preserved in the churches and cathedrals of your islands, points back to the rhythm of the monasteries founded by St Benedict in the 6th century. While considering all the hateful things that believers have done down the ages supposedly in My name, you might spare a thought for the monks who lived, and still live, by Benedict's rule.

During the troubled period in Europe known as the Dark Ages, which resemble in many ways the barbarism and fragmentations of the world today, it was the monasteries that preserved civility, education, scholarship, moral intellectual life, care of the poor and the sick, the arts of husbandry, and community building. So. Why don't you occasionally slip into your college chapel for evensong to ponder that thought. It might make you less antagonistic towards religion. And it might help to relax you a little.

For now I bid you farewell. But be assured: you have not heard the last of Me.

Till then I remain yours affectionately, and faithfully

God

Comments 101 - 144 of 144 |

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101. Comment #15099 by Kingasaurus on December 28, 2006 at 11:02 pm

-----As a species that has evolved in social groups, our genes are telling us that respecting the norms of social behaviour, in which competition is restricted by cooperative bounds, is essential to maximizing, on average, each individual's chances of survival. Actions that offend the sense of fairness do so because they violate that principle of reciprocity...---

Yes. It's also worth mentioning that if you are going to deny genetic/evolutionary influence in these areas, you're going to have to explain the behavior of large numbers of non-human social species, which have their own rules of behavior in which altruism is quite common - not to mention the ostracizing or punishing the non-conformist who engages in destructive behavior that makes life for the rest of the group more difficult.

If there is an evolutionary reason why the grouper doesn't devour the small cleaner fish once it finishes cleaning inside the grouper's mouth, it really isn't a big stretch to look for biological reasons why hypothetical societies which would allow anarchical murder and wanton, purposeless destruction just because its members "feel like doing it" just aren't going to be very successful.

Other Comments by Kingasaurus

102. Comment #15102 by Vardu on December 28, 2006 at 11:28 pm

There have been some brilliant posts registered here on just how morality may have evolved...

I was a believer for a number of years but never encountered the kind of intellectual and spiritual stimulation that I have discovered among non-believers.

Thanks guy's for providing such substantially marvelous food for thought.

Other Comments by Vardu

103. Comment #15108 by Jared on December 29, 2006 at 12:59 am

 avatarBinx Bolling:
I don't have time to reply fully, I'm afraid, but I wanted to point out a couple of things:

Here's a challenge: [...]
I call shenanigans and say your challenge is irrelevant to what I was saying. However, I take your point about 'begging the question' of whether how people feel has a logical connection to some kind of prescriptive morality. As the question is unanswerable, in any practical sense, I'll withdraw it.

I agree that reason and logic can be applied to questions about good and evil, just as they can be applied to questions about the nature of god. While the reasoning may be sound, if the the premises are faulty, the conclusions will probably be wrong.

Ah, but how can there be a 'right' or 'wrong' on a moral question if there is no underlying morality? Wouldn't 'wrong' be an irrelevant definition in your world view? Or, if you simply mean that any kind of morality is 'wrong,' then where do the 'faulty premises' enter into it? To you, ALL such premises are faulty and the argument can never have merit. That is, of course, unless there is some natural 'right' and 'wrong' to be applied in questions of good and evil.

See, there's a little Nietzsche in all of us!

Yeah, there was when I was sixteen years old and depressed by all the people 'holding me down'. That I was saying YOU could take the Nietzchean route was by no means my way of saying that I would approve of your behavior or join you in it. Nietzsche was a brilliant thinker, to be sure, but I'll be damned if I find as much to agree with as I grow older, and I'm nowhere near old.

We call Stalin bad. What we really mean is that his actions failed to conform to socially acceptable norms. We will punish that kind of behavior when possible because it threatens our own self interest.

Self interest, or the interest of the group? I think that as social creatures we have an amount invested in living in groups, and I think we are likely to 'punish' actions that would harm our group. Or do you deny that altruism exists?

Now that we have that sorted out, let's take the next logical step and eliminate both. There is no god. There is no ought. We are free to act any way we please.

I think it's impossible for you to eliminate 'ought,' again due to the interdependent nature of our species. But please, do try, and tell me how your efforts fare. Just as the desire to convince EVERYONE to be rid of god is likely impossible to fulfill, you may find the same is true in 'eliminating' ought for good. Within a generation (or conceivably even less) these precepts would be likely to return via the same biological routes that gave rise to them in the first place.

I agree with your premise that man is 'responsible' enough to live without 'ought,' in principle. But I do not think it is possible in practice. Man, as an animal, tends towards order and social grouping. That is undoubtedly true. I would wager that 'ought' is a byproduct of our urge to group, perhaps because it helps lead to group stability, but I can't say for sure. Certainly the ability to conceive of 'ought' or at least 'ought not' is conducive to better social grouping.

I guess my basic problem with RD and TGD is that they are ostensibly atheistic, but not really[...]

Don't you mean they are atheistic in FACT but still 'irrational' in principle? After all, atheism means nothing more than the lack of belief in a deity. It says nothing about what other beliefs you may have about leprechauns, psychics, OR morality.

You are, then, taking issue NOT with his claims of atheism, but with what you perceive as the mixing of support for rationalism (leading to a logically atheistic conclusion) and irrationality (leading to a belief in 'ought' and morality). Why didn't you say that in the first place instead of calling us all dogmatic and reactionary for not listening to the pap in this article which, ostensibly, has little to do with your real grudge? You would have saved us a lot of time and typing.

Personally I cannot speak for RD on that. I think it's a bit presumptive of you to call his belief in morality 'irrational' without having him explain it himself. Clearly if we can all spill this much ink trying to prove whether there are rational grounds for keeping concepts of 'good' and 'bad' around, he at least deserves the same opportunity.

His book, as we have already determined, was (unlike this conversation) not geared towards being a philosophical examination of the rationality of morality. Again, that is the book YOU would like him to have written, not the book he wanted to write. Just because you find his pseudo-Hegelian perspective hypocritical in your narrow Nietzschean point of view doesn't mean it IS irrational to think that way. I'd be willing to read what RD has to say about that side of the coin, so to speak.

I suppose I wrote a more full answer than I intended to. Oh well. Kudos to Jonathan Dore, JohnC, and Kingasaurus for their recent good posts, with which I largely agree, as well.

Other Comments by Jared

104. Comment #15121 by nickthelight on December 29, 2006 at 3:28 am

 avatarDear God

For the almighty you really do present a woolly-headed self contradicting argument. You say that children 'can, and do, distinguish between the real and imaginary at a very early age' this is simply not true as I myself have friends who as children were not able to do that – indeed the burning fires of hell, of which they were told, were very real indeed. Only now after reasonable thinking do they realise what a vile concept religion is. Secondly you state that during the dark ages across Europe the places of salvation, civility and comfort were churches and monasteries – why? - Fear of God's retribution that's why!

You also raise the issue of Stalin among others stating that as atheists they committed great atrocities under the guise of atheism. Wrong. They implemented a doctrine used by religion over the centuries to control the masses from the top down and as you stated persecuted many faiths not just Jews.

Also for the almighty there are too many question marks throughout your text.

Other Comments by nickthelight

105. Comment #15123 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 3:44 am

 avatarThere are many silly things said about the "dark ages", starting with the name. But in any period of mass illiteracy, the few centres of literate culture will of course be bearers of what knowledge and civility exists. That in certain historical periods and places these were monastaries does not establish anything other than a contingent link between religion and the values of civilization. And once literacy becomes more widespread, such religious centres quickly become brakes on those values as their ossified teachings straitjacket the growth of the critical, inquiring spirit that popular literacy brings in its wake. Witness the role of religious schools in Indonesia or Pakistan today.

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106. Comment #15140 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:02 am

 avatarKingasaurus said, "If there is an evolutionary reason why the grouper doesn't devour the small cleaner fish once it finishes cleaning inside the grouper's mouth, it really isn't a big stretch to look for biological reasons why hypothetical societies which would allow anarchical murder and wanton, purposeless destruction just because its members "feel like doing it" just aren't going to be very successful."
_________

And that is why the majority of humanity are not psychopaths.

As I have said many times before, the discourse at RichardDawkins.Net is of consistently high quality, and I thank all who contribute their time and mental energies in doing so, and I thank the creators and managers of this marvelous site. Us atheistic 'cats' have managed to create a flourishing community. Kudos to everyone involved.

Other Comments by Logicel

107. Comment #15144 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:11 am

 avatarPercy Walker wrote The Moviegoer in which was featured a fictional character, Binx Bolling.

Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedian entry on Walker: "He devoted his literary life to the exploration of "the dislocation of man in the modern age,"[1] and his work exhibited a unique combination of existentialism, southern sensibility, and deeply-felt Catholicism."

I am sure many know who Binx Bolling is, but I did not, so I am just including it here for some who may have not known about Binx and his creator.

Other Comments by Logicel

108. Comment #15154 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 7:10 am

Jonathan Dore wrote:
I would have thought the fairly obvious clincher in deciding whether or not to burn down your neighbour's house is that by doing so you automatically cede the basis on which you can object to anyone burning down *your* house.

Once I have made the leap that burning down someone's house is desirable, why should I feel obligated to allow the same freedom to others? When the alpha-male chimp threatens, punishes, and dominates the other chimps, we don't (or shouldn't) wring our hands about how he really is undermining the cooperative social contract among the apes. I would not want to live under similar social rules as the chimps. But I have no problem with being the alpha-male.

That logically necessary reciprocity seems to me to be a pretty firm basis for the prescriptive injunction that one *ought* not to burn down one's neighbour's house.

I guess you could summarize my whole point by saying that reciprocity is not logically necessary. Any proofs for the logical necessity of reciprocity are like proofs for god's existence, i.e., based on unfalsifiable, mystical, or supernatural premises, and therefore, most probably false.

As a species that has evolved in social groups, our genes are telling us that respecting the norms of social behaviour, in which competition is restricted by cooperative bounds, is essential to maximizing, on average, each individual's chances of survival.

I completely agree that we can learn much from our evolutionary heritage about what is most likely to make us happy, contented, primates. (But given that violent chimps are our closest relatives, I am not so sure we will like everything we learn.)

But the flip side of the coin is that evolution depends on mutations and differences between individuals. Whatever the "average" is for any given property, such as height or propensity to enjoy fire, there will be variations in a population. We undoubtedly have inherited tendencies toward social order. As a primate who enjoys living with a certain amount of social order, I am very glad about that. I am very happy that others feel constrained, because it suits my purposes. I even enjoy feeling constrained myself, in some ways, because that gives me a sense of belonging and contentment that is wired into my genes. But there are more than a few times that I would like not to be quite so constrained. A nice big fire now and then would suit me well.

I am not arguing that all social norms should be abolished, just that they don't apply to me. I don't really care that if everyone thought like this, society would break down because there is no way that everyone will think like this. People are too wedded to their myths. So I am safe. Altruism is real. A requirement for reciprocity is fantasy. RD is smart enough to understand this.

Nietzsche's reaction to the death of an external authority figure for morality has always struck me as being like the reaction of a teenager...

Nietzsche was a much deeper thinker than RD. He understood the implications of what he wrote, in their full, tragic glory. If anything, RD is the adolescent in this story.

Other Comments by Binx Bolling

109. Comment #15157 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 7:50 am

 avatarBinx, you admit the existence of the constraint not to burn down one's neighbours house, including on yourself (I even enjoy feeling constrained myself, in some ways) but that such a moral constraint is no guarantee of compliance, ie "free will" exists so each of us is "free" to operate within or against these constraints. Sounds like all the components of a moral philosophy to me. Meanwhile, should you actually initiate the "big fire" that would suit you well, I can only hope that the justice system, which is an imperfect embodiment of this moral sense, will deal with you appropriately.

Other Comments by JohnC

110. Comment #15158 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 7:50 am

So like our sweet tooth or desire for companionship, our moral sense is an effective universal quality resulting from the complex historical processes that have brought us here.

I completely agree that our moral sense is real and is equivalent to our sweet tooth. But although both the moral sense and sweet tooth are programmed into us, we are not obliged to conform to either one. In fact, once I understand that my sweet tooth is causing me to get fat, I can suppress it and go on a diet. Similarly, once I understand that my feelings of guilt are inhibiting me, I can suppress them and burn houses.

Other Comments by Binx Bolling

111. Comment #15160 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 8:02 am

 avatarBinx@15158
True, but I don't see what religion, from our current global perspective, has to add. The gentlemen who flew their planes into the Twin Towers presumably believed they were destined to travel the highway to Paradise, but if in the final moments before impact they had had a revelation of Jesus they would suddenly have seen the hellfires of their fevered imagination as their terrible fate, before they actually ignited the real thing under thousands of innocent people.

Both scenarios are preposterous illusions that offer no more guarantee of actual moral behaviour than the entirely credible story provided by science and history. The story Richard, not Nietzsche, tells.

Other Comments by JohnC

112. Comment #15165 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 8:48 am

JohnC wrote:
I don't see what religion, from our current global perspective, has to add.

No argument from me.

Both scenarios are preposterous illusions

You recognize religion as an illusion. So why can't your recognize RD's religion substitute as an illusion?

It's the fawning, self-congratulatory tone of most RD disciples that is most jarring. Don't they see their own silliness in casting off one oppressive idea, god, while constructing elaborate supernatural fantasies about emergent morality to put in god's place? That brings me back to the original article by Cornwell. At least he seems to understand what the stakes are in this little game. RD probably does too. But his fans are skipping into the abyss without the faintest clue.

Other Comments by Binx Bolling

113. Comment #15168 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 9:09 am

 avatarBinx, RD can speak for himself, of course. Gesturing at unspecified "supporters" gets us nowhere. Since the reply was addressed to me, are you saying that I have been "constructing elaborate supernatural fantasies about emergent morality".

Moving beyond this polemical argy-bargy, I think the issue is that you want to define true morality as being grounded in a transcendental reality. And therefore, any perspective that denies the supernatural either: A. eliminates morality, or B. must erect an alternative supernaturalism in its place.

But if we agree that for any given social context in the naturalist version of this story that our moral sense is real and that human actors have the freedom to act with or against that sense, what else do you want? Isn't that all we ever required of a moral philosophy?

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114. Comment #15171 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 9:13 am

Kingsaurus wrote:
it really isn't a big stretch to look for biological reasons why hypothetical societies which would allow anarchical murder and wanton, purposeless destruction just because its members "feel like doing it" just aren't going to be very successful.

I have already stipulated that social order requires that most people obey the rules and that we punish those who don't. This is an easily observable fact. The superdome after hurricane Katrina is a perfect case study.

I understand that my own actions can have negative social repercussions that may affect me in undesirable ways. But there is no need to posit the existence of mystical concepts such as duty, responsibility, evil, to fill the gaping hole that is left when we kick god out of the picture. My altruistic feelings, are just that, feelings and nothing more. I can, and often do, act in ways that go against my feelings. I think I am smart enough to figure out when and how to dodge the worst of the possible repercussions of my choices. In fact, the act of arson itself and the resulting fire are not the only pleasurable things. Transgressing social norms, breaking the rules has its own special thrill. If it wasn't forbidden, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun. As I said before, we all take risks.

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115. Comment #15174 by Kingasaurus on December 29, 2006 at 9:49 am

---I understand that my own actions can have negative social repercussions that may affect me in undesirable ways. But there is no need to posit the existence of mystical concepts such as duty, responsibility, evil, to fill the gaping hole that is left when we kick god out of the picture.---

I missed the part where duty and responsibility became "mystical concepts." If someone says "Look, we've all agreed not to commit arson so that the benefits people enjoy from living in cooperative groups will continue, and everybody in this society will be happier and better off if you agree not to commit arson, either." This is a form of duty and responsibility to the needs of others which sociopaths don't share, but most of the rest of us do. Explain to me how that qualifies as "mystical."

---My altruistic feelings, are just that, feelings and nothing more. I can, and often do, act in ways that go against my feelings.----

I missed the part where this was a huge revelation unknown to everybody else.

---I think I am smart enough to figure out when and how to dodge the worst of the possible repercussions of my choices.---

Scott Peterson probably thought that, too. Criminals often think they are too smart to be found out and punished. A percentage of them are. You're probably smart enough to avoid negative repercussions if you're stealing paper clips from the office. Murder or something of similar seriousness remains to be seen.

---In fact, the act of arson itself and the resulting fire are not the only pleasurable things. Transgressing social norms, breaking the rules has its own special thrill. If it wasn't forbidden, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun. As I said before, we all take risks.----

Right. The chimp takes a risk when he decides to steal a larger portion of the food or take his share too early. If the group kicks him out, maybe he thinks it wasn't worth the negative consequences and won't try it the next time. Chimps don't have "god", so how did these social rules among primates come about, if not from a biological basis?

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116. Comment #15175 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 9:53 am

JohnC wrote:
are you saying that I have been "constructing elaborate supernatural fantasies about emergent morality".

Yes. "We are the children of contingency" is the stuff of religion.

any perspective that denies the supernatural either: A. eliminates morality, or B. must erect an alternative supernaturalism in its place.

That is a fair enough summary.

But if we agree that for any given social context in the naturalist version of this story that our moral sense is real and that human actors have the freedom to act with or against that sense, what else do you want? Isn't that all we ever required of a moral philosophy?

Not quite. Any moral philosophy worthy of the name should help me decide how I myself ought to act. Otherwise, what's the point? The existence of a biologically based moral sense says nothing about how I ought to make my own personal choices.

Take the chimp example. (Sorry if I seem obsessed with primates.) We know a lot about chimp social interactions. We see how they organize in groups and how certain group members come to dominate. There is a social order that is maintained by following certain rules. As rationalists, we simply observe and make no judgments about whether those rules are good or bad. They just are.

But suppose I am a chimp, and I just happen to have evolved a pretty smart chimp brain that can understand the situation better than my fellow chimps. I figure out that these rules don't always work in my favor. I figure out that the rules are often pretty darn arbitrary. I figure out that I can sometimes break the rules and no one is the wiser. So I go ahead and use the system to my advantage, by say, forcing my cousin to copulate when the alpha-male is not around to punish me.

You, a scientist observing me the chimp, would simply note the interesting behavior. Something new! What is going on here? Hmm...pretty smart chimp. How did he figure that out? He does seem to have a larger brain than the others. Perhaps his behavioral aberration indicates an evolutionary step.

But the other chimps, if they got wind of what was going on, would be distressed to see their social order being turned upside down.

How should I, the smart chimp, feel about transgressing these rules? After all I got some good stuff out of it. It felt a little weird, sort of like I was betraying my alpha-male master. I certainly don't want to be doing that all the time. That's a recipe for disaster. But every once in a while, why not take some liberties with that hot little female cousin?

My point is that we are all chimps. And RD is a pretty smart chimp. Most of his chimp enthusiasts are none the wiser.

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117. Comment #15177 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 10:09 am

 avatarbinx, you quote my posted summary of your position: any perspective that denies the supernatural either: A. eliminates morality, or B. must erect an alternative supernaturalism in its place. And say: That is a fair enough summary.

Well, that's good enough for me. I am happy to have defined the disagreement, I don't expect to resolve it, given your obvious pleasure in the pyrotechnics of the polemic.

Be safe.

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118. Comment #15180 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 10:18 am

Kingasaurus wrote:
I missed the part where duty and responsibility became "mystical concepts." If someone says "Look, we've all agreed not to commit arson so that the benefits people enjoy from living in cooperative groups will continue, and everybody in this society will be happier and better off if you agree not to commit arson, either." This is a form of duty and responsibility to the needs of others which sociopaths don't share, but most of the rest of us do. Explain to me how that qualifies as "mystical."

Someone says "Look, we've all agreed to believe in God so that the benefits people enjoy from living in cooperative groups will continue, and everybody in this society will be happier and better off if you agree to believe in God too."

My response would depend entirely on whether I have evidence that God exists. It would not depend on my observations of the positive or negative effects that belief in God has in society. Pretending that something exists just so we can all benefit is, in a word, a delusion. This is the sense in which duty and responsibility are mystical. They do not actually exist.

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119. Comment #15181 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 10:29 am

JohnC wrote:
Well, that's good enough for me. I am happy to have defined the disagreement, I don't expect to resolve it, given your obvious pleasure in the pyrotechnics of the polemic.

I am sure that I have tried the patience of everyone who has read this far. Thanks for whatever consideration you have given my ramblings.

I would be interested in engaging Dawkins himself in some of these debates. He is obviously no slouch when it comes to defending his beliefs. Is there a forum where RD participates?

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120. Comment #15187 by Kingasaurus on December 29, 2006 at 11:43 am

---My response would depend entirely on whether I have evidence that God exists. It would not depend on my observations of the positive or negative effects that belief in God has in society. Pretending that something exists just so we can all benefit is, in a word, a delusion. This is the sense in which duty and responsibility are mystical. They do not actually exist.---

I have pretty good evidence that people in a society will be happier if nobody in that society commits arson or murder or theft. That's why people collectively agree to prohibit such things. I'm not "pretending" anything by saying that. Nobody is saying "responsibility" is some mystical thing floating out in space. It's a descriptive term for a range of behaviors which we consider beneficial. Nobody wants their neighbor to arbitrarily jump the fence and kill them, so it is considered "responsible" if you (and everyone else) agree not to do it. You're trading off your ability to do whatever you like whenever you like for the benefits of living cooperatively with other people. When you ruin everyone else's fun by committing murder, you're "irresponsible". You're making your own life more problematic and difficult by pissing off the people around you - people from which you would normally receive cooperative benefits. I fail to see any connection with mysticism here.



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121. Comment #15191 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 12:21 pm

 avatarI would be interested in engaging Dawkins himself in some of these debates.

Well, you may want to have some more arrows in your quiver beyond your current rather slender bolt, no matter how elaborate your bow.

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122. Comment #15193 by Binx Bolling on December 29, 2006 at 12:35 pm

Kingasaurus wrote:

I have pretty good evidence that people in a society will be happier if nobody in that society commits arson or murder or theft.

There are many legitimate, non-mystical, motives for altruism, compassion, and adherence to rules. There are also many legitimate, non-mystical, motives for doing the opposite.

For example, suppose I am Josef Stalin and I want to take power in Soviet Russia because doing so confers many benefits on me. I see an opportunity to eliminate my political opponents and seize power. Should I take it? Once I have power, should I ruthlessly purge my enemies and do whatever else it takes to maintain control? Since I am Josef Stalin, the answer is yes. You want to call my actions immoral and irresponsible because they hurt many more people (hundreds of millions) than they help (me). If I were you, I might say the same thing. But I am Josef Stalin. If I cared about other people the way you do, I would not be in power. I understand your attempts to stop me. But I have arranged things so that I do not have to worry about what you or anyone else thinks.

How do you respond to Josef Stalin? Is he being irrational? Can you give him any rational, non-mystical, reasons to change his behavior?

We come full circle back to the argument that John Cornwell made in his article. Atheistic ideology, when taken to its logical conclusions, does lead straight to Stalin. Nietszche knew it. Dostoyevsky knew it. Stalin knew it. Solzhenitsyn knows it. Dawkins should know it.

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123. Comment #15226 by seals on December 29, 2006 at 6:29 pm

 avatar I am not arguing for the existence of god. I am saying that god's non-existence has some wonderful, liberating consequences that RD and his disciples are afraid to accept. Or, just maybe, RD is smart enough to understand, but, cunningly won't admit this publicly. He, after all, makes his own choices and seeks his own fulfillment. Perhaps I have underestimated this clever fellow after all. (comment 87)

Dostoyevski and Nietzsche both understood that "If there is no God, all things are permitted." Dostoyevski concluded that there must be a God. Nietzsche concluded that all things are permitted. Dawkins pretends the dilemma does not exist. (comment 81)



In my garbled message, this is what i think i meant to say - There is no dilemma because no-one gets to decide whether there is a god or not. RD came via evidence based reasoning to the inescapable conclusion that there almost certainly is no god. The possible consequences of this conclusion, such as whether we have a nihilistic attitude or see opportunities for boundless hedonism, just follow on automatically for those thus inclined. The alternative that we continue to believe (or pretend to believe) in a god that almost certainly does not exist, to avoid the consequences of not believing, is like the tail wagging the dog and simply not an option.

RD has not disproved the existence of god although he has demonstrated pretty convincingly that there is not a shred of acceptable scientific evidence, but actually i feel that a miss is as good as a mile. Like that other guy says, we don't know what we dont know.

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124. Comment #15269 by G Bile on December 30, 2006 at 5:01 am

Binx Bolling talks about 'morality' and his penchant to 'burn' things. At one point he says (comment #85):
*Suppose I have considered all possible outcomes and still decide to take the risk and burn the neighbor's house down. We take risks all the time. If I get away with it I win.*
What if he had said:
*Suppose I have considered all possible outcomes and still decide to take the risk and burn a pile of wood in my fireplace. We take risks all the time. If I get away with it I win.*
So his penchant is not 'burning things', but 'hurting other people and causing them misery'. Many of us would regard this as immoral.
Of course 'morality' is an abstract thing and does not 'exist'. What exists is behavior of a person that he himself would say is led by moral considerations he has.
Now it could well be that Binx Bollings neighbor's house is a house where 'crack' is sold, so burning the joint might not be a bad thing.
Does immorality now become morality ? What we feel to be moral or immoral, beautiful or ugly, etc. is personal and varying. It could not be otherwise in my opinion.
With regard to BB's 'house burning urge': If you don't know how this fits in your own 'immoral-moral' scale, try this: before you start burning a neighbor's house, first burn your own house and see how you like that. It is from these 'thought experiments' that we develop rules about what we will do, or not do.
The quote above ends with *If I get away with it I win.* This is a strange remark. First I don't understand what 'win' means in this sentence. Is there a contest going on? But more importantly: You will never get away with it ! Unless you develop complete amnesia, you will always remember what you did. Now you could say, theoretically, that this remembrance will not bother you, but you cannot be sure about this unless you have acted, otherwise you are back to non-exsistent abstract morality.

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125. Comment #15328 by Orion on December 30, 2006 at 12:04 pm

Binx: '"Either God exists or s/he doesn't."

Either evil exists or it doesn't (regardless of the difficulty in discerning which state is true).'

No, that is not so. I think you missed my point. Evil's existence is a philosophical debate, quite distinct from the existence of a deity.

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126. Comment #15332 by John Phillips on December 30, 2006 at 1:04 pm

Binx Bolling: "In your readings, just watch out for the sleight of hand these guys use when discussing a biological basis for morality. They love to present lots of plausible theories about how altruism emerged from evolution. Then they wave their hands and magically produce statements that depend upon a leap of faith. None of them squarely faces the moral abyss that beckons them."

No sleight of hand or leap of faith is necessary as cooperative altruism, i.e. the selfish gene, has been observed in other primates and even in other species, especially but not exclusively social animals. Thus it appears that the evolutionary impetus to what humans might regard as the source of our morality, i.e. The Selfish Gene again, is not limited to only humans and is a survival strategy that has value to many species. If such behaviour is observed in other species, what price morality from religion, as I doubt if there is a church of the bonobo, the gorilla pope or the monkeyhamed to give them their moral compass.

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127. Comment #15342 by Ian Armer on December 30, 2006 at 1:51 pm

Cornwell is an idiot and he makes his 'God' sound an even bigger idiot. That's some going!

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128. Comment #15348 by goddogit on December 30, 2006 at 3:22 pm

I hope I am not pointing out the too-obvious.

Threads that runs over about three pages seem to have a recurring feature: a puffed up theist (occasionally pretending otherwise) digging up everything and the kitchen sink to draw two or three reasonable people - evidently with as much spare time as the vain, the nutty, or, as in this thread with the interminably pretentious Binx B., the self-impressed - into fruitless and quickly very dull discussion until the offensive theist disappears, going elsewhere to repeat their gremlin routine (does anyone really thin Binx B. gives a shit about the discussion? Does anyone believe interesting insights will follow from his philosophical spaghetti? Might as well talk to an "honest" YEC).

In allowing us to see example of just how blindly dishonest religion's apologists can be, this serves a sort of purpose, especially to the newbies. It is very, very tiresome for those of us who have seen it hundreds of times, however.

May interesting discussion take place on what happens in our real lives, apart from the parlour game of lies that too often is philosophy and always is any supernatural religion

Oh, and farewell for a quite long time to this and all "comments" sections. I have a resolution to withhold my opinions as much as possible, and will only be offering experiences. Pray I may find the strength to do so.

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129. Comment #15440 by Binx Bolling on December 31, 2006 at 10:37 am

Johns Phillips wrote:
No sleight of hand or leap of faith is necessary as cooperative altruism, i.e. the selfish gene, has been observed in other primates and even in other species, especially but not exclusively social animals.

The leap of faith does not concern the origins of our altruism. That clearly derives from our selfish genes. The leap of faith I referred to was the jump RD and others make from describing the origins of our altruism to assigning some kind of binding duty to that altruism, using such judgmental language as "right," "wrong," "good," and "evil."

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130. Comment #15441 by Binx Bolling on December 31, 2006 at 10:43 am

Orion wrote:
I think you missed my point. Evil's existence is a philosophical debate, quite distinct from the existence of a deity.

I don't see the difference. How are they distinct? Both the existence of a deity and the existence of evil are philosophical and scientific questions. This is an important point and I would like to understand what you mean.

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131. Comment #15459 by Binx Bolling on December 31, 2006 at 1:53 pm

G Bile wrote:
The quote above ends with *If I get away with it I win.* This is a strange remark. First I don't understand what 'win' means in this sentence. Is there a contest going on? But more importantly: You will never get away with it ! Unless you develop complete amnesia, you will always remember what you did.

Kim Jong-il, leader of North Korea, is a winner. He gets away with a lot. He remembers most of what he does. He does not care. Is Kim Jong-il being irrational?

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132. Comment #15514 by Jonathan Dore on December 31, 2006 at 11:31 pm

Binx Bolling comment 110: "Once I have made the leap that burning down someone's house is desirable, why should I feel obligated to allow the same freedom to others? When the alpha-male chimp threatens, punishes, and dominates the other chimps, we don't (or shouldn't) wring our hands about how he really is undermining the cooperative social contract among the apes. I would not want to live under similar social rules as the chimps. But I have no problem with being the alpha-male."

No one's asking you to "allow the same freedom" to others, since you didn't seek permission from your previous victim; you simply went ahead. In the situation I am positing your neighbours burn down your house whether you want them to or not. Are you happy about it, or do you object? If you object, on what basis? The most fundamental moral basis available to any of us is "I wouldn't do it to you", but you've just deprived yourself of that position by actually burning your neighbour's house.

"I guess you could summarize my whole point by saying that reciprocity is not logically necessary. Any proofs for the logical necessity of reciprocity are like proofs for god's existence, i.e., based on unfalsifiable, mystical, or supernatural premises, and therefore, most probably false."

Not at all, since what I'm suggesting is not the external existence of a *thing*, but of an agreed framework of social exchange that our genetic heritage predisposes us to favour. You seem to think that a sense of "ought", to be valid, must somehow be dependent on some reified force that compels compliance -- and so without God, moral standards fall. That is simply a category mistake: God and morals are not the same kind of thing at all. God is clearly imagined to be personal, self-sufficient, and existing independent of humanity, whereas morals are concepts, not personalities, are malleable over time as human societies change, and exist only as a product of those societies.

So "proofs" for morals (your term, not mine) are completely different from "proofs" for God, since for morals the evidence is there for all to see in human behaviour. You have a fascination with chimps, but why do you imagine that human behaviour must follow theirs? Three or four million years of divergence separate us from a common ancestor with chimps, and the direction of that divergence can be seen, for instance, in the fact that pair bonding has become almost universal in human societies, as opposed to kinship groups based on alpha males (your favourite avatar) and harems. That means that most human males have a chance to breed, unlike most males of most other large mammals. That observation is suggestive that a basic sense of egalitarianism is pretty fundamental to humans, as thus is the value placed on fairness, and thus the felt necessity of reciprocity as a general principle in human relations. No mysticism. No supernaturalism. Just the interactions of human beings moulded by their environment.

As for why chimp behaviour does not attract moral censure, while humans' does, surely the reason is obvious: human consciousness is an emergent property, the product of brains of sufficient complexity to make them capable of rational, abstract thought and an advanced capability for imagination and empathy. That makes us morally responsible for our actions in a way chimps cannot be. The most telling aspect of your repeated references to chimps is not that you regard them as being indistinguishable from humans, but that you think of humans as having no greater capabilities than chimps.

"Any moral philosophy worthy of the name should help me decide how I myself ought to act. Otherwise, what's the point? The existence of a biologically based moral sense says nothing about how I ought to make my own personal choices."

It does to me. Are you unable to perform an action unless it is an order? Then you're a slave. Your biologically based moral sense tells you how, in the general terms of human societies, you should act. To seek some greater authority for the action is not to look deeper into the abyss, but to look in the wrong direction. Our human nature is all we have.

"Nietzsche was a much deeper thinker than RD. He understood the implications of what he wrote, in their full, tragic glory. If anything, RD is the adolescent in this story."

Hmmm. So Nietzsche's reaction to the absence of an authority figure for morality is "I can do whatever I like and no-one can punish me, so I choose to do what I want." Dawkins's reaction is "I can do whatever I like and no-one will punish me, but since I don't want to live in a society in which people act without regard for others I will choose to act towards others in the way I'd like them to act towards me, which seems to be the best bet for getting others to do the same." Which of those two statements strikes you as being more adolescent?

"A nice big fire now and then would suit me well. I am not arguing that all social norms should be abolished, just that they don't apply to me. I don't really care that if everyone thought like this, society would break down because there is no way that everyone will think like this. People are too wedded to their myths. So I am safe."

Please, get some professional help.

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133. Comment #15525 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 1, 2007 at 3:48 am

I'd just like to wish everybody in here a happy new year - and especially to Professor Dawkins, whose latest work The God Delusion is a truly brilliant work! I am thoroughly enjoying this book and would like to congratulate the Professor for a fine work. A work so good, that Theists seem attracted to this website in order to blub at Atheists about how we are wrong and how evil Richard is! HA HA HA!

I'm on chapter 5 of TGD and I'd like to point something out here: John Cornwell a.k.a 'God' needs to read the TGD again. Because if anybody needs his consciousness raising - it is John Cornwell.

If I were to impersonate God, it'd go something along these lines:

"Hi Professor Dawkins! I no I don't actually exist, but I love your new work! In particular, I like the part about raising consciousness. I found your philosophy, concerning feminism inspiring. You see, I think I've been a naughty non-existent God, for the past 6,000 years - erm - sorry, 4.5 Billion years, (Time goes so fast for me, I kind of forgot how old I am!), you see, I've made a few mistakes. First, I should have read TGD in the future and then gone back in time and re-wrote scripture. See, I created Homosexuals, but condemned them. That was wrong of me. See, I created women, but treated them as 2nd class sub-servants, when infact, I should have viewed them as equals - yes, infact I shouldn't have said women should not be allowed to talk in church. I said slavery was okay, but I shouldn't have. I shouldn't have allowed the beating of slaves. See, I said murder was wrong, but at other times, I said it was okay. That was wrong of me. See, I allowed people to be beaten to death for collecting sticks on Sunday, when actually, it was probably wrong of me to allow it. See, I designed lethal diseases and allowed catastrophes such as 9/11, Tsunamis, Volcanic eruptions, Crusades, Inquistions, witch-hunts and the dark-ages to take place without bothering to intervene. I am sorry I am so lazy. I was busy, stuck on level-10 of the latest playstation game. See, I am omnipotent, but I get bored, even though I don't exist. That's why I created Flu, Cancer, Heart-disease, Progeria, Leprosy, Parkinsons, Dementia and all the other lovely diseases upon Earth - because when you get them and suffer, it entertains me. Sorry to be so cruel, but I can't help myself. Much like when you Humans drown ants as kids. I find it funny."

"So in conclusion, Richard, your work is great! It has raised my conscience a bit. But I think I shall hide away for the next 13.7 Billion years, until I've dealt with my shame. Sorry for the confusion."

Hmmm. Not too different from B. Bolling's postings. I wonder, no, B.Bolling couldn't be Asana in disuise again, could it? Or that other loon who was Asana in disguise? I could well be wrong here, but I do get the same kind of feeling from the postings of B.Bolling.

"Oh! By the way professor! God here again. Sorry. I've made an evil caricature named SATAN. He is currently busy on Earth, disguised as John Cornwell. I think he works for the Times or something. He is quite unwell. Don't for one instance believe his writings in the Times. I didn't write them. Mind you, I don't exist, so it makes no difference."

HA HA HA HA! Have a great 2007. ESPECIALLY Professor Dawkins and his hard-working assistant Josh. Oh DEAR! I HAVEN'T upset Theists have I? Too bad. You lot upset us Atheists with your contradictory, no-evidence-for-a-Supernatural Deity or any of the ludicrous claims you make. The Bible is better than the Viz for a laugh though. In a strange kinda-way. The Moral's upheld by Theists; you should be ashamed of yourselves, you really should. I wonder how much of the Old and New Testaments have actually been read, by Theists? I was a 'Christian' - then I read the Bible. How could I not have seen how DELUDED I was?

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134. Comment #15535 by John Phillips on January 1, 2007 at 6:07 am

Binx Bolling said "The leap of faith does not concern the origins of our altruism. That clearly derives from our selfish genes. The leap of faith I referred to was the jump RD and others make from describing the origins of our altruism to assigning some kind of binding duty to that altruism, using such judgmental language as "right," "wrong," "good," and "evil.""

But RD doesn't, at least not in that sense, all he does is to explain why cooperative altruism evolved, it is our moral judgement based on our ability for abstract thought and a need to explain our world and our actions that attributes good, bad etc. to them. However, from an evolutionary sense one could say that a certain trait or behaviour is good or bad from the standpoint that 'good' behaviour promotes the survival of the species while the 'bad' doesn't, with no need to invoke morality at all.

Though the fact that what may be considered both morally good and evolutionary good is largely the same should not be considered too much of a coincidence for the simple reason that if cooperative altruism is of benefit for the survival of the species then it would be obvious through natural selection for the behaviour to be both self selecting and self reinforcing. If you then link that with humans ability for abstract thought and a need for answers to everything it is not much of a stretch to see us rationalising the evolutionary good behaviour as morally good behaviour and so for bad behaviour.

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135. Comment #15545 by Binx Bolling on January 1, 2007 at 7:47 am

John Phillips wrote:
the fact that what may be considered both morally good and evolutionary good is largely the same should not be considered too much of a coincidence

I agree that many people will translate their innate behavioral instincts, what you refer to as evolutionary good, into moral concepts. This is understandable, predictable, and normal. Many people will enforce behavioral standards on themselves and others because of a sense of right and wrong. No problem there.

Once we understand where our moral sense comes from, is it ever rational to reject it? It's all well and good to talk about self selecting and self reinforcing behaviors. But when I am faced with a choice to benefit myself by breaking the rules or benefit the group by following the rules, what should I do? This kind of choice happens all the time. RD's moral logic depends upon me agreeing that I "should" follow my innate instincts for cooperative altruism. This is only rational when following those instincts actually does benefit me. That is far from always true.

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136. Comment #15647 by Binx Bolling on January 1, 2007 at 8:16 pm

Jonathan Dore wrote:
In the situation I am positing your neighbours burn down your house whether you want them to or not. Are you happy about it, or do you object? If you object, on what basis? The most fundamental moral basis available to any of us is "I wouldn't do it to you", but you've just deprived yourself of that position by actually burning your neighbour's house.

Of course I would seek to punish whoever burned down my house on the basis that I like my house and burning it down is illegal. I would publicly condemn arson as an abomination against all standards of decent conduct. If asked, I would deny ever having intentions to do something similar. In a word, I would lie. This would be perfectly rational.

what I'm suggesting is not the external existence of a *thing*, but of an agreed framework of social exchange that our genetic heritage predisposes us to favour. You seem to think that a sense of "ought", to be valid, must somehow be dependent on some reified force that compels compliance

Close, but not quite. Any real "ought" must appeal to something supernatural, literally outside of nature. It need not compel compliance. How do you propose we get from "is" to "ought"? RD does it by pointing to biological origins (all "is"), magically waving his hands, and pulling an "ought" out of a hat. The only tools science gives us are tools for exploring what is, not what ought to be.

Are you unable to perform an action unless it is an order? Then you're a slave. Your biologically based moral sense tells you how, in the general terms of human societies, you should act.

Who is the slave: the one who feels obligated to follow biological instincts or the one who knows he is at liberty to ignore them? The false choice you are offering is between slavery to an imagined god or slavery to biological destiny. The real choice is between slavery to supernatural myths (god, morality, whatever), or total freedom from the supernatural.

Dawkins's reaction is "I can do whatever I like and no-one will punish me, but since I don't want to live in a society in which people act without regard for others I will choose to act towards others in the way I'd like them to act towards me, which seems to be the best bet for getting others to do the same."

I do not deny that RD personally may be acting very rationally. He is quite smart and is likely able to know what the consequences of his actions will be. He likes to follow Jesus' Golden Rule. So he acts nice. Good for him. Where the dishonesty comes in (not necessarily irrational dishonesty) is when he implies that everyone is like Richard Dawkins and that we must all rely on the nice-instinct to guide our actions so that we can all get along. Many, many people are better off personally when they sometimes do not follow their purported nice-instincts.

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137. Comment #15727 by Kingasaurus on January 2, 2007 at 9:42 am

Well, color me surprised.

Who knew that hideous, mass-murdering dictators only appeared after a few people decided there was no god to tell them how to behave?

I'm thankful that we only had benevolent, non-exploitative forms of government before people discovered atheism and its implications.

I'm still struggling to find the distinction between Stalin, who did whatever he liked because he supposedly feared no supernatural moral judge, and any of the horrible autocratic Czars who preceded him - who did whatever THEY liked because they were convinced that God himself and his natural order wanted them on the throne. Absolute dictatorial power was their god-given right, no? The idea of an absolute, transcendent moral principle and a supernatural being to enforce it didn't seem to control the societally destructive whims of these rulers. If everyone back then believed in God, why weren't these people more "moral" than Stalin?

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138. Comment #15733 by Binx Bolling on January 2, 2007 at 10:31 am

Kingsaurus wrote:
I'm thankful that we only had benevolent, non-exploitative forms of government before people discovered atheism and its implications.

I am not trying to blame atheism or religion for atrocities. I am saying Kim Jong-il and Stalin may have acted perfectly rationally. Therefore, there is no point in "blaming" them for anything. There is no point in "blaming" the burglar who steals your car stereo. There is no point in "blaming" the pedophile next door. All these people may be acting perfectly rationally. Moral culpability is fiction. RD loves blaming people.

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139. Comment #15739 by Kingasaurus on January 2, 2007 at 11:55 am

Look, you're the one claiming there can't be any "ought" without a supernatural referent. If people routinely abuse and take advantage of others whether they adhere to supernatural beliefs or not, I'm not sure what practical difference it makes.

What's the difference between "There's no god watching me so I can feel free to kill you" and "God told me he wants me to kill you?"

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140. Comment #15754 by Binx Bolling on January 2, 2007 at 1:47 pm

Kingsaurus wrote:
What's the difference between "There's no god watching me so I can feel free to kill you" and "God told me he wants me to kill you?"

I would restate the question slightly more generally: What's the difference between "There's nothing supernatural so I can feel free to kill you" and "God told me he wants me to kill you?"

The first statement is true. The second is false.

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141. Comment #15756 by macronencer on January 2, 2007 at 3:04 pm

 avatarProfessor Dawkins, thank you for posting that review of The Ancestor's Tale, it made good reading. I laughed out loud, though, at the final statements:

...I have just one serious quarrel with the book, which is the difficulty of reading it in bed. I note that at nearly 4kg it is a whole kilogram heavier than my hardback F N Robinson edition of The Works of Chaucer, which has twice as many pages and is printed on high-quality paper.


I've had exactly the same problem! :)

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142. Comment #15760 by Kingasaurus on January 2, 2007 at 3:51 pm

----The first statement is true. The second is false.----

There seems to be little practical difference between the two points of view with regards to a small percentage of the population engaging in highly destructive behavior which is widely influential.

If that's the case, then the supernatural referent which would supposedly underpin morality doesn't seem to make much practical difference. If sociopaths will do what they do regardless of their religious opinions, why have a bug up your ass about the whole business?

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143. Comment #15763 by Binx Bolling on January 2, 2007 at 5:10 pm

Kingsaurus wrote:
There seems to be little practical difference between the two points of view

Very true. Rejecting god, accepting god, rejecting morality, accepting morality all seem to be irrelevant to "sociopaths." But I do not really care about the outcome of my beliefs. I only really care about the truth value of my beliefs. If you could stop 90% of the violence in the world by convincing most people to believe something that is not true, would you do it (assuming it were in your power to do so)? Would you believe it yourself? That's basically the situation you are in. You are saying that the only way we can all get along is if we all believe a little bullshit, or at least not question it too much.

If sociopaths will do what they do regardless of their religious opinions, why have a bug up your ass about the whole business?

The sociopathic examples are just a form of argument called "reductio ad Hitleram." To me, the only really interesting non-sociopathic case is my self (or in your case, your self), because when talking about our selves, the examples, while much more prosaic, have much higher stakes. If you like following rules, or even if you like the deluded feeling that following rules is good (whatever that is), by all means follow the rules. That is a perfectly rational thing to do. It seems strange to say that preferring to be deluded can be rational. But I am assuming that, to some extent, yours is a choice freely made. If I, on the other hand, prefer to ignore the rules when it suits me, that is a perfectly rational thing to do. All I am suggesting is that you consider whether you may not want to break the rules some time. I would not suggest mass murdering or raping or pillaging. If you have not already mastered the art of getting away with these things, you are likely to regret the consequences. Try to identify a situation in which you can commit a small transgression that no one will notice, perhaps stealing something from the office. Deliberately choose to commit the act and then just do it. Notice how it makes you feel. Did you like it? How did it feel to deliberately reject a moral precept? If it gave you pleasure, consider doing something like that again. But be careful. Habits can make you lazy. You might get caught if you do it too often.

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144. Comment #15876 by seals on January 3, 2007 at 12:57 pm

 avatarWell, on the face of it, there doesn't seem to be much hope for planet Earth either, in this situation. Either earthly life is all just a rehearsal for the afterlife, no problems with climate change there. End of the world - do not dismay. Or death is complete annihilation, for the individual and all species eventually, we cannot see outside ourselves - once again no need to protect the planet.

(Devils advocate!)

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