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Ancient boy's skeleton sparks evolution debate
by CNN
Thanks to Blaine Simpson for the link.
Reposted from:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/02/06/kenya.fossildebate.ap/index.html
NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) -- Deep in the dusty, unlit corridors of Kenya's national museum, locked away in a plain-looking cabinet, is one of mankind's oldest relics: Turkana Boy, as he is known, the most complete skeleton of a prehistoric human ever found.
But his first public display later this year is at the heart of a growing storm -- one pitting scientists against Kenya's powerful and popular evangelical Christian movement. The debate over evolution vs. creationism -- once largely confined to the United States -- has arrived in a country known as the cradle of mankind.
"I did not evolve from Turkana Boy or anything like it," says Bishop Boniface Adoyo, head of Kenya's 35 evangelical denominations, which he claims have 10 million followers. "These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."
He's calling on his flock to boycott the exhibition and has demanded the museum relegate the fossil collection to a back room -- along with some kind of notice saying evolution is not a fact but merely one of a number of theories.
Against him is one of the planet's best-known fossil hunters, Richard Leakey, whose team unearthed the bones at Nariokotome in West Turkana, in the desolate, far northern reaches of Kenya in 1984.
"Whether the bishop likes it or not, Turkana Boy is a distant relation of his," Leakey, who founded the museum's prehistory department, told The Associated Press. "The bishop is descended from the apes and these fossils tell how he evolved."
Among the 160,000 fossils due to go on display is an imprint of a lizard left in sedimentary rock, dating back 200 million years, at a time when the Earth's continents were only beginning to separate.
Dinosaur fossils and a bone from an early human ancestor, dating back 7 million years, will also be on show along with the bones of short-necked giraffes and elephants whose tusks protrude from their lower jaws.
They provide the clearest and unrivaled record yet of evolution and the origins of man, say scientists.
But the highlight will be the 5-foot-3 Turkana Boy, who died at age 12 and whose skeleton had been preserved in marshland before its discovery.
It will form the center stage of the exhibition to be launched in July following a $10.5 million renovation of the National Museums of Kenya, financed by the European Union. The EU says it has no concerns over the displays and that the museum was free to exhibit what it wished.
Followers of creationism believe in the literal truth of the Genesis account in the Bible that God created the world in six days. Bishop Adoyo believes the world was created 12,000 years ago, with man appearing 6,000 years later. He says each biblical day was equivalent to 1,000 Earth years.
Adoyo's evangelical coalition is the only religious group voicing concern about the exhibition.
Leakey fears the ideological spat may provoke an attack on the priceless collection, one largely found during the 1920s by his paleontologist parents, Louis and Mary Leakey, who passed their fossil-hunting traditions on to him.
The museum, which attracts around 100,000 visitors a year, is taking no chances.
Turkana Boy will be displayed in a private room, with limited access and behind a glass screen with 24-hour closed-circuit TV. Security guards will be at the entrance.
"There are issues about the security," said Dr. Emma Mbua, the head of paleontology at the museum. "These fossils are irreplaceable and we wouldn't want anything to happen to them."
Insurance coverage could run into millions of dollars, she added.
Mbua, a Protestant, is a little taken aback at the controversy but has no problems reconciling her own faith to the scientific evidence.
"Evolution is a fact," adds Mbua, who has run the department for the last five years.
"Turkana Boy is our jewel," she said. "For the first time, we will be taking him out of the strong room and showing our heritage to the world."
Reposted from:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/02/06/kenya.fossildebate.ap/index.html
Story Highlights:
• Kenya's national museum to display 160,000 fossils
• Turkana Boy, most complete prehistoric human ever found, to be shown
• Kenyan evangelicals upset that the exhibit contradicts Bible
NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) -- Deep in the dusty, unlit corridors of Kenya's national museum, locked away in a plain-looking cabinet, is one of mankind's oldest relics: Turkana Boy, as he is known, the most complete skeleton of a prehistoric human ever found.But his first public display later this year is at the heart of a growing storm -- one pitting scientists against Kenya's powerful and popular evangelical Christian movement. The debate over evolution vs. creationism -- once largely confined to the United States -- has arrived in a country known as the cradle of mankind.
"I did not evolve from Turkana Boy or anything like it," says Bishop Boniface Adoyo, head of Kenya's 35 evangelical denominations, which he claims have 10 million followers. "These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."
He's calling on his flock to boycott the exhibition and has demanded the museum relegate the fossil collection to a back room -- along with some kind of notice saying evolution is not a fact but merely one of a number of theories.
Against him is one of the planet's best-known fossil hunters, Richard Leakey, whose team unearthed the bones at Nariokotome in West Turkana, in the desolate, far northern reaches of Kenya in 1984.
"Whether the bishop likes it or not, Turkana Boy is a distant relation of his," Leakey, who founded the museum's prehistory department, told The Associated Press. "The bishop is descended from the apes and these fossils tell how he evolved."
Among the 160,000 fossils due to go on display is an imprint of a lizard left in sedimentary rock, dating back 200 million years, at a time when the Earth's continents were only beginning to separate.
Dinosaur fossils and a bone from an early human ancestor, dating back 7 million years, will also be on show along with the bones of short-necked giraffes and elephants whose tusks protrude from their lower jaws.
They provide the clearest and unrivaled record yet of evolution and the origins of man, say scientists.
But the highlight will be the 5-foot-3 Turkana Boy, who died at age 12 and whose skeleton had been preserved in marshland before its discovery.
It will form the center stage of the exhibition to be launched in July following a $10.5 million renovation of the National Museums of Kenya, financed by the European Union. The EU says it has no concerns over the displays and that the museum was free to exhibit what it wished.
Followers of creationism believe in the literal truth of the Genesis account in the Bible that God created the world in six days. Bishop Adoyo believes the world was created 12,000 years ago, with man appearing 6,000 years later. He says each biblical day was equivalent to 1,000 Earth years.
Adoyo's evangelical coalition is the only religious group voicing concern about the exhibition.
Leakey fears the ideological spat may provoke an attack on the priceless collection, one largely found during the 1920s by his paleontologist parents, Louis and Mary Leakey, who passed their fossil-hunting traditions on to him.
The museum, which attracts around 100,000 visitors a year, is taking no chances.
Turkana Boy will be displayed in a private room, with limited access and behind a glass screen with 24-hour closed-circuit TV. Security guards will be at the entrance.
"There are issues about the security," said Dr. Emma Mbua, the head of paleontology at the museum. "These fossils are irreplaceable and we wouldn't want anything to happen to them."
Insurance coverage could run into millions of dollars, she added.
Mbua, a Protestant, is a little taken aback at the controversy but has no problems reconciling her own faith to the scientific evidence.
"Evolution is a fact," adds Mbua, who has run the department for the last five years.
"Turkana Boy is our jewel," she said. "For the first time, we will be taking him out of the strong room and showing our heritage to the world."
Comments 1 - 49 of 49 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #21100 by MIND_REBEL on February 7, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Religion has almost completely destroyed Africa. So many of their problems would be reversed if they'd just listen to reason. Just plain old sad. Other Comments by MIND_REBEL
3. Comment #21101 by linck on February 7, 2007 at 2:59 pm
"These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."Yes, silly views aka facts are really spoiling any fun.
It is so sad that such great artifacts of mankind have to be displayed under security.
Just another variant of burning book. If already different opinions are worth destroying than facts are obvious ever more dangerous.
Other Comments by linck
4. Comment #21105 by Ilovelucy on February 7, 2007 at 3:12 pm
I don't see this pettiness as a problem. A new generation will get the opportunity to see a true wonder, a far more important artefact of human history than anything in the British Museum. Try telling a child not to do something, they'll do the opposite. Tell a child that the fascinating creature on view isn't an ancestor, the child will make up their own mind one day. Other Comments by Ilovelucy
5. Comment #21107 by ligfietser on February 7, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Oh crap, there's reality back again. Let us pray! Other Comments by ligfietser
6. Comment #21114 by kaiserkriss on February 7, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Bishop Boniface proves that like at the local cesspool, sh*t does rise to the top. It is a crime against humanity that narrow minded people command so much respect to the extent that he and his ilk have a following of 10 million people.
By asking for a boycott of the exhihition he is denying people the opportunity to see the evidence to make up their own minds. Typical middle ages theist reaction: "Keep the masses dumb and uneducated, we know what's best for them". This is so selfish and arrogant and sickening!!!
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
7. Comment #21115 by TheEnd on February 7, 2007 at 3:27 pm
I'd be very curious to know precisely how Bishop Adoyo came to the conclusion that each biblical day was equivalent to 1,000 Earth years. I'm sure he has reasons and I would like to know them because I couldn't, in my wildest dreams, come up with a good enough line of BS to support that one. - TheEndOther Comments by TheEnd
8. Comment #21121 by Duff on February 7, 2007 at 4:33 pm
God is not going to be pleased by this skeleton. Skeletons are anathema to God. God doesn't like to see his great truths disproved by these inconvenient, paltry, pesky, pedestrian skeletons. It's time for a moratorium on skeletons. "No more skeletons," says God.Other Comments by Duff
9. Comment #21138 by Russell Blackford on February 7, 2007 at 5:39 pm
The growing power of extreme, unreconstructed forms of Christianity in the developing world is a real concern. I hope that things will look at bit different when and if nations in places like sub-Saharan Africa become more prosperous economically.Other Comments by Russell Blackford
10. Comment #21140 by savroD on February 7, 2007 at 5:50 pm
I watched the original Planet of the Apes movie the other weekend. I think it's preety obvious that the bishop has not evolved at all. Funny thing, mentally, he's more closely related to Turkana Boy than he realizes! Other Comments by savroD
11. Comment #21144 by Zaphod on February 7, 2007 at 6:01 pm
"160,000 fossils are wrong" shouts closed minded priest."My fictional book is actually true because I say it is" shouts delusional idiot.
Other Comments by Zaphod
12. Comment #21145 by BaronOchs on February 7, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Turkana Boy will be displayed in a private room, with limited access and behind a glass screen with 24-hour closed-circuit TV. Security guards will be at the entrance.
How sad, how pitifully sad that that must be the case.
Other Comments by BaronOchs
13. Comment #21155 by M31 on February 7, 2007 at 7:40 pm
I like this quote:"Whether the bishop likes it or not, Turkana Boy is a distant relation of his," Leakey, who founded the museum's prehistory department, told The Associated Press. "The bishop is descended from the apes and these fossils tell how he evolved."
Other Comments by M31
14. Comment #21160 by k1mgy on February 7, 2007 at 8:02 pm
>>He's calling on his flock to boycott the exhibition and has demanded the museum relegate the fossil collection to a back room -- along with some kind of notice saying evolution is not a fact but merely one of a number of theories.<<Words on a page often evoke instantaneous visual images for me. These brought back the video I saw some years ago of the Taliban in Afghanistan blowing up the giant Buddha sculptures of Bamiyan. The pair were around 1500 years old and were destroyed because they represented "graven images". I am fond of Buddhism and particularly respectful of this more peaceful of all the religions (if it can even be classified as such), so seeing these relics destroyed at the hands of ignorance was overwhelming.
The Taliban had a direct way of wiping out any contrary evidence. Would Bishop Adoyo, if he had his way, do the same to these old bones?
If the evidence is overwhelming, destroy it. If those who argue soundly and rationally are undeniable, attack them personally. These are the tactics of the deluded.
Shoving the evidence into a back room only works for a while. It has a way of coming back.
Other Comments by k1mgy
15. Comment #21161 by miketenor on February 7, 2007 at 8:09 pm
What a shame to have a fossil record, what a pity to be part of a living planet in an infinite universe. A fairytale description of divinity is all alot of people will accept for themselves. Surely ignorance or arrogance are much better words than faith for the majority of them.Other Comments by miketenor
16. Comment #21162 by mmurray on February 7, 2007 at 8:20 pm
In the interview with Alistair McGrath two news items down he says"The real issue is that the heartland of Christianity these days isn't western Europe at all; it's places like Latin America and Africa."
Guess we know what he means now.
Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
17. Comment #21167 by freestateofmind on February 7, 2007 at 8:53 pm
It's settled: Intelligent Design Trumps Evolution. At least that's what Mr. Pat Boone has to say. He writes for that far right news mag NewsMax. Pat, stick to your singing.Here is the link:http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/1/30/92330.shtml
Other Comments by freestateofmind
18. Comment #21168 by Chayanov on February 7, 2007 at 8:57 pm
The religious have always preferred to live in comfortable ignorance than to have to deal with uncomfortable facts. It is a trait all religions share.Other Comments by Chayanov
19. Comment #21182 by Roy_H on February 7, 2007 at 10:32 pm
"These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."I wish it was! The worst thing we ever did to Africa was take our religion with our flags.
Other Comments by Roy_H
20. Comment #21184 by pwagner on February 7, 2007 at 11:11 pm
This Creationist movement should easily be seen as comical based on the overwhelming evidence for Evolution. Nice to see others with the same viewpoints. I wonder why the fundies are not on Dawkins site posting to these articles. :-)Other Comments by pwagner
21. Comment #21190 by scottishgeologist on February 8, 2007 at 12:47 am
These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."Wonderful! Just keep pressing home the attack.
Brings to mind a couple of quotes: First TH Huxleys "Tragedy of science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly FACT"
Or, another Huxley (Aldous)
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." ~ Aldous Huxley
"But facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed." ~ Robert Burns, A Dream (1786)
Burns, my countryman, of course had a very incisive way of viewing religion. His "Holy Willies Prayer" (just google for it) should be mandetory in all classrooms)When Burns was alive, Scotland was little more than a theocracy.
Or, Stephen Jay Gould:
"Facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away while scientists debate rival theories for explaining them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air pending the outcome."
Other Comments by scottishgeologist
22. Comment #21193 by Mrs Trellis on February 8, 2007 at 1:02 am
Quote Mind Rebel:'Religion has almost completely destroyed Africa. So many of their problems would be reversed if they'd just listen to reason.'
Yeah, I guess they must just be stupid, eh? Nothing to do with the pitiful state of public education throughout the continent, of course, they just ought to listen to reason, dammit! (<- sarcasm)
Quote RoyH:
'"These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."
I wish it was! The worst thing we ever did to Africa was take our religion with our flags.'
Indigenous African beliefs are no more reasonable than Islam or Christianity, unfortunately. They offer mostly the same prejudices (homosexuality is wrong, women are immoral and unreasonable and are there to serve their husbands, our ethnic group is inherently superior to yours etc), a spectacular dose of superstition and magical thinking, and a belief in witchcraft which enforces unilateral social obligations, undermines free enterprise, and serves to limit development throughout the continent.
The cure is education education education. Only no one has the cash.
Other Comments by Mrs Trellis
23. Comment #21194 by dom9inic on February 8, 2007 at 1:39 am
I would be very concerned about the security of these fossils. As someone else pointed out, it is not beyond those who wish to see an end to any other world view than their own to destroy such treasures.I wonder what the response would be.
Other Comments by dom9inic
24. Comment #21196 by Martin on February 8, 2007 at 2:01 am
Followers of creationism believe in the literal truth of the Genesis account in the Bible that God created the world in six days. Bishop Adoyo believes the world was created 12,000 years ago, with man appearing 6,000 years later. He says each biblical day was equivalent to 1,000 Earth years.
Which literal text? Genesis 1 or Genesis 2? They contradict, but Adoyo cherrypicks Genesis 1, and then changes 1 day into 1,000 years! How dare he!
Other Comments by Martin
25. Comment #21197 by Martin on February 8, 2007 at 2:05 am
Comment #21144 by Zaphod:
"My fictional book is actually true because I say it is" shouts delusional idiot.
How about:
"My fictional book is actually true because my fictional book tells me it is" shouts delusional idiot.
(This is the circular reasoning we often see.)
Other Comments by Martin
26. Comment #21208 by ICONIC FREEDOM on February 8, 2007 at 3:31 am
"Religion has almost completely destroyed Africa. So many of their problems would be reversed if they'd just listen to reason. Just plain old sad."Actually, perhaps this is evolution's way of natural selection. If these idiots believe as they do and they continue to die off as a result of AIDS and other health problems that are not being addressed because of god and faith, then it really does look like natural selection to me.
Even ignorance is nature's way of eliminating those unfit for society.
Other Comments by ICONIC FREEDOM
27. Comment #21216 by Ewan D on February 8, 2007 at 4:11 am
Bad taste, scooternyc. Sloppy work.Other Comments by Ewan D
28. Comment #21218 by Pantore on February 8, 2007 at 4:20 am
"Religion has almost completely destroyed Africa. So many of their problems would be reversed if they'd just listen to reason. Just plain old sad."Actually religion played a small part in the 'rape of Africa'
Multinational Corporations with bad politics did a large part of 'raping' Africa, it's a fact go check it out.
Other Comments by Pantore
29. Comment #21221 by Mrs Trellis on February 8, 2007 at 4:45 am
Scooternyc:
"Actually, perhaps this is evolution's way of natural selection. If these idiots believe as they do and they continue to die off as a result of AIDS and other health problems that are not being addressed because of god and faith, then it really does look like natural selection to me.
Even ignorance is nature's way of eliminating those unfit for society."
Some sort of Final Solution to get rid of the stupid black people? Knowledge and ignorance and religious affiliation are not passed on genetically, and are therefore COMPLETELY and utterly untouched by natural selection. Go read a book or two.
Other Comments by Mrs Trellis
30. Comment #21227 by BushYakker on February 8, 2007 at 4:54 am
"Actually religion played a small part in the 'rape of Africa'"Actually the rape continues.
Uganda is awash with 'End Time' evangelists. The country is stuggling to move forward because the zealot theists (usually American) are telling the common uneducated folk that the world is about to end.
Religion has been, is, and always will be, the biggest ever threat to the proper scientific education of the masses.
Other Comments by BushYakker
31. Comment #21237 by Ivar on February 8, 2007 at 7:08 am
@#21167 by freestateofmindWhile that was quite entertaining, and embarrassingly untrue, I found this little gem between all the blunt lies.
quote:
"If humans want to prove some theory, no matter how farfetched and self-serving, they will inevitably find some "evidence" that they can wedge into their theory."
This made me laugh, there still has to be found one piece of evidence supporting the exisitence of (a) God.
Other Comments by Ivar
32. Comment #21244 by blaine on February 8, 2007 at 7:59 am
I hated the link to this article on CNN's home page: "Ancient boy's skeleton sparks evolution debate". I sadly clicked to it, expecting another unfortunate article highlighting disagreements about evolution among scientists, which are always taken as evidence against evolution by those who happily misunderstand the scope and implications of the disputes.I was pleasantly surprised by CNN's objective perspective, specifically using meaningful quotes from Leakey the younger, and giving a sensible voice the "last word".
I also very much like that the subject matter itself makes it clear to the un-brainwashed that Adoyo isn't pushing an alternative hypothesis or anything else which anybody could consider fair, but just wants to hide physical evidence which he can't account for.
I loved Leakey's quote, but I'm really grateful to Adoyo for cheering me up:
These sorts of silly views are killing our faith.
Cheer up, Atheists: this enemy admits that his side is losing.
Other Comments by blaine
33. Comment #21246 by wednesdayguevara on February 8, 2007 at 8:21 am
Scooternyc wrote:"Actually, perhaps this is evolution's way of natural selection. If these idiots believe as they do and they continue to die off as a result of AIDS and other health problems that are not being addressed because of god and faith, then it really does look like natural selection to me.
Even ignorance is nature's way of eliminating those unfit for society."
You should know that the AIDS epidemic in Africa is due to the (to use Sam Harris's phrase) genocidally stupid behavior of the Catholic church, and not to natural selection. In many areas of Africa, the only information the people have access to is that disseminated by the church. They are kept ignorant by the religious whack jobs, not killed off by natural selection because they are "unfit for society."
Please think before you post. Ordinarily you seem like a smart fellow, but that statement was about as ridiculous as statements come.
Other Comments by wednesdayguevara
34. Comment #21257 by j s bach on February 8, 2007 at 9:37 am
This Adoyo man is barely out of his Animism nappies. It's the likes of him that has the Archbishop of Canterbury by the short and curlies and is dragging the Anglican Church back into the Dark Ages. Other Comments by j s bach
35. Comment #21347 by ketandev on February 8, 2007 at 9:15 pm
As no religion existed during the existence of the Turkana Boy, I'd say he was an atheist.An atheist who probably lived in a cave and played drums on his wife's head, but smart enough not to be deluded.
The Bishop is right in saying he did not evolve from the Turkana boy, as evolving from an atheist would only produce something more intelligent than an atheist can ever imagine.
The Bishop has therefore DEvolved from the Turkana Boy.
How - you might ask, does one devolve from a potential ancestor?
Simple. Introduce them to religion.
Other Comments by ketandev
36. Comment #21351 by ArtlessFrank on February 8, 2007 at 9:42 pm
I was amazed at a recent conference I attended when a missionary got up and spoke about his work in Africa. He trumpeted with great zeal about how the Africans, particularly children who have been given food and shelter, are "just so passionate for God".Well, it's not really surprising when you consider that these kids had nothing, then mysterious white men appeared out of nowhere and gave them food and shelter. "Why are you doing this?", the child will ask, to which the missionary will reply, "Jesus sent me, he told me to help you."
Of course these people, who have no education or experience outside of their own villages to speak of, will be "passionate for God", they want the food to keep coming!
Missionaries do good work over there in terms of giving kids a chance, but their methods raise serious concerns about the world view they implant into the coming generations of Africa. I don't think they are given the chance to take a rational point of view
Other Comments by ArtlessFrank
37. Comment #21353 by DavidJMH on February 8, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen,Evolution is not and cannot be suspended simply to pander to the overly PC sensibilities of the liberal atheist left. The influence of the Catholic church in Africa and elsewhere is part of evolution and if people are so dumb as to follow nonsensical edicts and perverted sexual practices to their own detriment, then they will be part of the natural selection process.
The negro community in the USA are in denial about the transmission of HIV/AIDS, so it is hardly surprising that Africa suffers the way it does. So many of you seem to still be blaming the colonial white man for the woes of the undeveloped and aboriginal peoples of this planet; nothing could be further from the truth. These peoples would be in poor straits regardless of any outside influence because they are for the most part, ignorant, lazy, selfish and dumb, and that is evolution whether you like it or not.
By the way, before you all get bent out of shape, I spent 13 years as a pilot for a non-religious flying doctors service in Africa, that tried desperately to change attitudes towards desease and health care through treatment and education. For the most part it was a waste of time and money because these people simply are incapable of controlling their base instincts. It will take centuries of evolution for them to change that is if they haven't become extinct by then.
Other Comments by DavidJMH
38. Comment #21419 by DavidMcC on February 9, 2007 at 6:01 am
So you've gone from one extreme to the other, then DavidJMH? Other Comments by DavidMcC
39. Comment #21420 by Ewan D on February 9, 2007 at 6:02 am
David, Given the fact there's more genetic variation within races than between them, phrases like 'they are for the most part, ignorant, lazy, selfish and dumb' to describe some inherent racial characteristic, is bullshit.Other Comments by Ewan D
40. Comment #21441 by wednesdayguevara on February 9, 2007 at 7:40 am
David JMH:Personal responsibility is, of course, an issue. If you had said something like, "Hey, it's not only the church's fault. There comes a time when people need to stand up and take responsibility for their own actions," then you would have made a very good point. But you didn't say anything like that, did you? Instead, you played the "Darkies are dumb" card, and tried to legitimize your position by invoking evolution.
So now we must choose. Is an entire continent of people (and apparently those descended from people of said continent) as you say, "for the most part ignorant, lazy, selfish, and dumb," and "incapable of controlling their base instincts"? Or are you just a raging bigot?
Other Comments by wednesdayguevara
41. Comment #21488 by happinessiseasy on February 9, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Followers of creationism believe in the literal truth of the Genesis account in the Bible that God created the world in six days.It bothers me that the AP would say "that God created the world" instead of "that a god created" or "that their god created." It shows a slight religious bias.
Other Comments by happinessiseasy
42. Comment #21506 by slucid1 on February 9, 2007 at 3:05 pm
"I'd be very curious to know precisely how Bishop Adoyo came to the conclusion that each biblical day was equivalent to 1,000 Earth years. I'm sure he has reasons and I would like to know them because I couldn't, in my wildest dreams, come up with a good enough line of BS to support that one. - TheEnd"I remember back in my Jehovah's Witness days (before I was kicked out of that incredibly dangerous cult), that there was a scripture used by them regarding this, that said something along the lines of "a thousand years in Jehovah's eyes are as a day".
I don't remember the exact quote, but it went something along those lines. That's how the JWs get around the literal 7 days of Genesis.
Other Comments by slucid1
43. Comment #21521 by DavidJMH on February 9, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen,Scooternyc is right and the bigotry lies with those who choose to try rewrite truth to suit their own ignorance. The aboriginal peoples of this planet are an evolutionary anachronism whether one wishes to accept that or not. I know it is unfashionable to say so but it is nevertheless the case. This fact has nothing to do with racial or colour prejudice; all that is required for those of you who think you know differently, is go and work in darkest Africa for a year or two, especially if you are an American negro.
The Christian missionaries have since the middle of the nineteenth century all made the same error in thinking they can uplift the African into the modern era simply with belief and medicine. The end result is more ignorance and bigotry like the nonsense illuminated in the article above. You can take the African out of the bush but you cannot take the bush out of the African; that is something that only evolution can do. If that offends you then go and see for yourself.
Other Comments by DavidJMH
44. Comment #21524 by timothygmd on February 9, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Here we have an interesting thread....DavidJMH and Scooternyc have challenged a "political correctness" with assertions that many would consider racist. More, they have raised the ugly head of eugenics. Darwinians usually don't like their treasured science misused to advocate inhumanity to our fellow humans.
In my opinion, scooternyc was motivated by dislike of religion (which I share) but confused the results of adverse nongenetic behavior with darwinian natural selection.
DavidJMH believes that the endemic social problems of aboriginal peoples are evidence of an evolutionary distinction between a modern us and an anachronistic "them". I believe he is wrong. Although the groups are distinct, the species is human. We're all "us".
The wonderful thing about science is that it bows to neither political correctness nor racism. I look forward to reading this discussion.
Other Comments by timothygmd
45. Comment #21566 by Clappers on February 10, 2007 at 12:18 am
"He says each biblical day was equivalent to 1,000 Earth years."Since a day is defined as the time it takes for the earth to revolve in relation to the sun, do you think it might have been a little hot for those parts facing the sun.
Other Comments by Clappers
46. Comment #21583 by wednesdayguevara on February 10, 2007 at 2:33 am
Why is not believing that black people are less than human called being "politically correct"? Is it because that's the phrase bigots hurl about when they are called on their racism?I'm not a scientist. I'm not even all that smart. I do know that people are throwing around a lot of rather nasty ideas and not providing any evidence whatsoever to back up their claims. Are the African people (and those descended from) not quite as evolved as others? If you claim so, the onus is on you to prove it. And, "I was there, man," doesn't cut it. This is a very serious scientific claim, and you're going to have to gather a lot of data. I suggest you get started right away. Chop, chop.
Other Comments by wednesdayguevara
47. Comment #21615 by Nuclearman on February 10, 2007 at 6:23 am
Comment #21193 by Mrs. Trellis states,
The cure is education education education. Only no one has the cash.
in reference to educating the masses of Africa.
Really? What's the present tally for the cash spent thus far by the USA and UK on dropping bombs on innocents in Iraq? Must be getting close to a trillion dollars by now, I should think.
How many could have been educated with the money spent per day dropping bombs on the people of Iraq?
The colonial powers had the cash at one point to invade Africa, carve it up into colonies, and rape the land of its resources.
I'm not the least bit convinced that the cash isn't there. The reality is, us "luckies" in the 1st world nations are sloth to use it to lift the lot of our brethren.
Other Comments by Nuclearman
48. Comment #21773 by Mrs Trellis on February 11, 2007 at 4:01 am
DavidJMH"The aboriginal peoples of this planet are an evolutionary anachronism [blah blah blah blah blah blah blah] If that offends you then go and see for yourself."
Hi, David. I'm here, in West Africa, right now. What I see when I look around me are firstly a lot of very poor un-educated black people who are trying to make ends meet, and secondly a lot of stupid white people who don't understand how to help them. People think that throwing money at Africa is the solution; it's part of the solution, but it has to be money spent intelligently. Missionaries and medicine aren't enough, as you point out.
Development work in third world countries is basically memetic engineering. Since the memetic background (meme pool) in Africa is so different to that in Europe or America, what works in developed countries is not guaranteed to work here.
Blinkered people who persistently try techniques which work in developed countries find that they persistently fail in developing countries, and the lesson they take home is that it is the Africans' fault for being congenitally stupid. People with a little more insight appreciate that they first have to have an understanding of the cultural milieu they are trying to influence before understanding how they can educate a population into healthier habits.
Oh, and I think you need to brush up on your understanding of the word 'evolution'. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Nuclearman:
"I'm not the least bit convinced that the cash isn't there. The reality is, us "luckies" in the 1st world nations are sloth to use it to lift the lot of our brethren."
Hear hear. Further qualification: I actually meant that no one in Africa who's willing to spend lots of cash on education has the cash.
Other Comments by Mrs Trellis
49. Comment #22080 by wednesdayguevara on February 12, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Thank you, Mrs. Trellis. You are awesome.Other Comments by wednesdayguevara
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1. Comment #21099 by kmccardle on February 7, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Upset that the evidence contradicts the Bible? I'd be upset too if there was proof I was delusional.Other Comments by kmccardle