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Wednesday, March 28, 2007 | Reason : Astronomy | print version Print | Comments |

Document Stephen Hawking Says Universe Created from Nothing

by Slashdot

Thanks to James Pycroft for the link.

Reposted from:

http://science.slashdot.org/science/07/03/14/172226.shtml

"Speaking to a sold out crowd at the Berkeley Physics Oppenheimer Lecture, Hawking said yesterday that he now believes the universe spontaneously popped into existence from nothing. He said more work is needed to prove this but we have time because 'Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.' There is also a Webcast available (Realplayer or Real Alternative required)."


hawkingTRANSCRIPT: Origins of the universe: Stephen Hawking's J. Robert Oppenheimer Lecture

BERKELEYThe is the text of the J. Robert Oppenheimer Lecture in Physics, delivered March 13, 2007, by Stephen Hawking, the Lucasian professor of mathematics at Cambridge University. Hawking spoke at Zellerbach Hall on the campus of the University of California, Berkeley.

Can you hear me?

According to the Boshongo people of central Africa, in the beginning there was only darkness, water, and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomach ache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals. The leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and, finally man.

This creation myth, like many others, tries to answer the questions we all ask. Why are we here? Where did we come from? The answer generally given, was that humans were of comparatively recent origin, because it must have been obvious, even at early times, that the human race was improving in knowledge and technology. So it can't have been around that long, or it would have progressed even more. For example, according to Bishop Usher, the Book of Genesis placed the creation of the world at 9 in the morning, on October the 27th, 4,004 BC. On the other hand, the physical surroundings, like mountains and rivers, change very little in a human life time. They were therefore thought to be a constant background, and either to have existed for ever as an empty landscape, or to have been created at the same time as the humans.

Not everyone however, was happy with the idea that the universe had a beginning. For example, Aristotle, the most famous of the Greek philosophers, believed the universe had existed for ever. Something eternal, is more perfect than something created. He suggested the reason we see progress, was that floods, or other natural disasters, had repeatedly set civilization back to the beginning. The motivation for believing in an eternal universe, was the desire to avoid invoking divine intervention, to create the universe, and set it going. Conversely, those who believed the universe had a beginning, used it as an argument for the existence of God, as the first cause, or prime mover of the universe.

If one believed that the universe had a beginning, the obvious question was, What happened before the beginning? What was God doing before He made the world? Was He preparing Hell for people who asked such questions? The problem of whether or not the universe had a beginning, was a great concern to the German philosopher, Immanuel Kant. He felt there were logical contradictions, or Antimonies, either way. If the universe had a beginning, why did it wait an infinite time before it began? He called that the thesis. On the other hand, if the universe had existed for ever, why did it take an infinite time to reach the present stage? He called that the anti thesis. Both the thesis, and the anti thesis, depended on Kant's assumption, along with almost everyone else, that time was Absolute. That is to say, it went from the infinite past, to the infinite future, independently of any universe that might or might not exist in this background.

This is still the picture in the mind of many scientists today. However in 1915, Einstein introduced his revolutionary General Theory of Relativity. In this, space and time were no longer Absolute, no longer a fixed background to events. Instead, they were dynamical quantities that were shaped by the matter and energy in the universe. They were defined only within the universe, so it made no sense to talk of a time before the universe began. It would be like asking for a point south of the South Pole. It is not defined.

If the universe was essentially unchanging in time, as was generally assumed before the 1920s, there would be no reason that time should not be defined arbitrarily far back. Any so-called beginning of the universe, would be artificial, in the sense that one could extend the history back to earlier times. Thus it might be that the universe was created last year, but with all the memories and physical evidence, to look like it was much older. This raises deep philosophical questions about the meaning of existence. I shall deal with these by adopting what is called, the positivist approach. In this, the idea is that we interpret the input from our senses in terms of a model we make of the world. One can not ask whether the model represents reality, only whether it works. A model is a good model, if first it interprets a wide range of observations, in terms of a simple and elegant model. And second, if the model makes definite predictions that can be tested, and possibly falsified, by observation.

In terms of the positivist approach, one can compare two models of the universe. One in which the universe was created last year, and one in which the universe existed much longer. The model in which the universe existed for longer than a year, can explain things like identical twins, that have a common cause more than a year ago. On the other hand, the model in which the universe was created last year, can not explain such events. So the first model is better. One can not ask whether the universe really existed before a year ago, or just appeared to. In the positivist approach, they are the same.

In an unchanging universe, there would be no natural starting point. The situation changed radically however, when Edwin Hubble began to make observations with the hundred inch telescope on Mount Wilson, in the 1920s.

Hubble found that stars are not uniformly distributed throughout space, but are gathered together in vast collections called galaxies.

By measuring the light from galaxies, Hubble could determine their velocities. He was expecting that as many galaxies would be moving towards us, as were moving away. This is what one would have in a universe that was unchanging with time. But to his surprise, Hubble found that nearly all the galaxies were moving away from us. Moreover, the further galaxies were from us, the faster they were moving away. The universe was not unchanging with time, as everyone had thought previously. It was expanding. The distance between distant galaxies, was increasing with time.

The expansion of the universe, was one of the most important intellectual discoveries of the 20th century, or of any century. It transformed the debate about whether the universe had a beginning. If galaxies are moving apart now, they must have been closer together in the past. If their speed had been constant, they would all have been on top of one another, about 15 billion years ago. Was this, the beginning of the universe.

Many scientists were still unhappy with the universe having a beginning, because it seemed to imply that physics broke down. One would have to invoke an outside agency, which for convenience, one can call God, to determine how the universe began. They therefore advanced theories in which the universe was expanding at the present time, but didn't have a beginning. One was the Steady State theory, proposed by Bondi, Gold, and Hoyle in 1948.

In the Steady State theory, as galaxies moved apart, the idea was that new galaxies would form from matter that was supposed to be continually being created throughout space. The universe would have existed for ever, and would have looked the same at all times. This last property had the great virtue, from a positivist point of view, of being a definite prediction, that could be tested by observation. The Cambridge radio astronomy group, under Martin Ryle, did a survey of weak radio sources in the early 1960s. These were distributed fairly uniformly across the sky, indicating that most of the sources, lay outside our galaxy. The weaker sources would be further away, on average.

The Steady State theory predicted the shape of the graph of the number of sources, against source Strength. But the observations showed more faint sources than predicted, indicating that the density sources was higher in the past. This was contrary to the basic assumption of the Steady State theory, that everything was constant in time. For this, and other reasons, the Steady State theory was abandoned.

Another attempt to avoid the universe having a beginning, was the suggestion that there was a previous contracting phase, but because of rotation and local irregularities, the matter would not all fall to the same point. Instead, different parts of the matter would miss each other, and the universe would expand again, with the density remaining finite. Two Russians, Lifshitz and Khalatnikov, actually claimed to have proved that a general contraction without exact symmetry, would always lead to a bounce, with the density remaining finite. This result was very convenient for Marxist Leninist dialectical materialism, because it avoided awkward questions about the creation of the universe. It therefore became an article of faith for Soviet scientists.

When Lifshitz and Khalatnikov published their claim, I was a 21—year-old research student, looking for something to complete my PhD thesis. I didn't believe their so-called proof, and set out with Roger Penrose to develop new mathematical techniques to study the question. We showed that the universe couldn't bounce. If Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is correct, there will be a singularity, a point of infinite density and space-time curvature, where time has a beginning.

Observational evidence to confirm the idea that the universe had a very dense beginning, came in October 1965, a few months after my first singularity result, with the discovery of a faint background of microwaves throughout space. These microwaves are the same as those in your microwave oven, but very much less powerful. They would heat your pizza only to minus 271 point 3 degrees centigrade, not much good for defrosting the pizza, let alone cooking it. You can actually observe these microwaves yourself. Set your television to an empty channel. A few percent of the snow you see on the screen, will be caused by this background of microwaves. The only reasonable interpretation of the background, is that it is radiation left over from an early very hot and dense state. As the universe expanded, the radiation would have cooled until it is just the faint remnant we observe today.

Although the singularity theorems of Penrose and myself, predicted that the universe had a beginning, they didn't say how it had begun. The equations of General Relativity would break down at the singularity. Thus Einstein's theory can not predict how the universe will begin, but only how it will evolve once it has begun. There are two attitudes one can take to the results of Penrose and myself. One is to that God chose how the universe began for reasons we could not understand. This was the view of Pope John Paul. At a conference on cosmology in the Vatican, the Pope told the delegates that it was OK to study the universe after it began. but they should not inquire into the beginning itself, because that was the moment of creation, and the work of God. I was glad he didn't realize I had presented a paper at the conference, suggesting how the universe began. I didn't fancy the thought of being handed over to the Inquisition, like Galileo.

The other interpretation of our results, which is favored by most scientists, is that it indicates that the General Theory of Relativity, breaks down in the very strong gravitational fields in the early universe. It has to be replaced by a more complete theory.. One would expect this anyway, because General Relativity does not take account of the small scale structure of matter, which is governed by quantum theory. This does not matter normally, because the scale of the universe, is enormous compared to the microscopic scales of quantum theory. But when the universe is the Planck size, a billion trillion trillionth of a centimeter, the two scales are the same, and quantum theory has to be taken into account.

In order to understand the Origin of the universe, we need to combine the General Theory of Relativity, with quantum theory. The best way of doing so, seems to be to use Feynman's idea of a sum over histories. Richard Feynman was a colorful character, who played the bongo drums in a strip joint in Pasadena, and was a brilliant physicist at the California Institute of Technology. He proposed that a system got from a state A, to a state B, by every possible path or history.

Each path or history, has a certain amplitude or intensity, and the probability of the system going from A- to B, is given by adding up the amplitudes for each path. There will be a history in which the moon is made of blue cheese, but the amplitude is low, which is bad news for mice.

The probability for a state of the universe at the present time, is given by adding up the amplitudes for all the histories that end with that state. But how did the histories start. This is the Origin question in another guise. Does it require a Creator to decree how the universe began. Or is the initial state of the universe, determined by a law of science.

In fact, this question would arise even if the histories of the universe went back to the infinite past. But it is more immediate if the universe began only 15 billion years ago. The problem of what happens at the beginning of time, is a bit like the question of what happened at the edge of the world, when people thought the world was flat. Is the world a flat plate, with the sea pouring over the edge. I have tested this experimentally. I have been round the world, and I have not fallen off.

As we all know, the problem of what happens at the edge of the world, was solved when people realized that the world was not a flat plate, but a curved surface. Time however, seemed to be different. It appeared to be separate from space, and to be like a model railway track. If it had a beginning, there would have to be someone to set the trains going.

Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, unified time and space as space-time, but time was still different from space, and was like a corridor, which either had a beginning and end, or went on for ever. However, when one combines General Relativity with Quantum Theory, Jim Hartle and I, realized that time can behave like another direction in space under extreme conditions. This means one can get rid of the problem of time having a beginning, in a similar way in which we got rid of the edge of the world. Suppose the beginning of the universe, was like the south pole of the Earth , with degrees of latitude, playing the role of time. The universe would start as a point at the South Pole. As one moves north, the circles of constant latitude, representing the size of the universe, would expand. To ask what happened before the beginning of the universe, would become a meaningless question, because there is nothing south of the South Pole.

Time, as measured in degrees of latitude, would have a beginning at the South Pole, but the South Pole is much like any other point, at least so I have been told. I have been to Antarctica, but not to the South Pole.

The same laws of Nature hold at the South Pole, as in other places. This would remove the age-old objection to the universe having a beginning, that it would be a place where the normal laws broke down. The beginning of the universe, would be governed by the laws of science.

The picture Jim Hartle and I developed, of the spontaneous quantum creation of the universe, would be a bit like the formation of bubbles of steam in boiling water.
The idea is that the most probable histories of the universe, would be like the surfaces of the bubbles. Many small bubbles would appear, and then disappear again. These would correspond to mini universes that would expand, but would collapse again while still of microscopic size. They are possible alternative universes, but they are not of much interest since they do not last long enough to develop galaxies and stars, let alone intelligent life. A few of the little bubbles, however, with grow to a certain size at which they are safe from recollapse. They will continue to expand at an ever increasing rate, and will form the bubbles we see. They will correspond to universes that would start off expanding at an ever increasing rate. This is called inflation, like the way prices go up every year.

The world record for inflation, was in Germany after the First World War. Prices rose by a factor of ten million in a period of 18 months. But that was nothing compared to inflation in the early universe. The universe expanded by a factor of million trillion trillion in a tiny fraction of a second. Unlike inflation in prices, inflation in the early universe was a very good thing. It produced a very large, and uniform universe, just as we observe. However, it would not be completely uniform. In the sum over histories, histories that are very slightly irregular, will have almost as high probabilities as the completely uniform and regular history.. The theory therefore predicts that the early universe is likely to be slightly non-uniform. These irregularities would produce small variations in the intensity of the microwave background from different directions. The microwave background has been observed by the Map satellite, and was found to have exactly the kind of variations predicted. So we know we are on the right lines.

The irregularities in the early universe, will mean that some regions will have slightly higher density than others. The gravitational attraction of the extra density, will slow the expansion of the region, and can eventually cause the region to collapse to form galaxies and stars. So look well at the map of the microwave sky. It is the blue print for all the structure in the universe. We are the product of quantum fluctuations in the very early universe. God really does play dice.

We have made tremendous progress in cosmology in the last hundred years. The General Theory of Relativity, and the discovery of the expansion of the universe, shattered the old picture of an ever existing, and ever lasting universe. Instead, general relativity predicted that the universe, and time itself, would begin in the big bang. It also predicted that time would come to an end in black holes. The discovery of the cosmic microwave background, and observations of black holes, support these conclusions. This is a profound change in our picture of the universe, and of reality itself.

Although the General Theory of Relativity, predicted that the universe must have come from a period of high curvature in the past, it could not predict how the universe would emerge from the big bang. Thus general relativity on its own, can not answer the central question in cosmology, Why is the universe, the way it is. However, if general relativity is combined with quantum theory, it may be possible to predict how the universe would start. It would initially expand at an ever increasing rate. During this so called inflationary period, the marriage of the two theories predicted that small fluctuations would develop, and lead to the formation of galaxies, stars, and all the other structure in the universe. This is confirmed by observations of small non uniformities in the cosmic microwave background, with exactly the predicted properties. So it seems we are on our way to understanding the origin of the universe, though much more work will be needed. A new window on the very early universe, will be opened when we can detect gravitational waves by accurately measuring the distances between space craft. Gravitational waves propagate freely to us from earliest times, unimpeded by any intervening material. By contrast, light is scattered many times by free electrons. The scattering goes on until the electrons freeze out, after 300,000 years.

Despite having had some great successes, not everything is solved. We do not yet have a good theoretical understanding, of the observations that the expansion of the universe, is accelerating again, after a long period of slowing down. Without such an understanding, we can not be sure of the future of the universe. Will it continue to expand forever? Is inflation a law of Nature? Or will the universe eventually collapse again? New observational results, and theoretical advances, are coming in rapidly. Cosmology is a very exciting and active subject. We are getting close to answering the age old questions. Why are we here? Where did we come from?

Thank you for listening to me.

Comments 51 - 83 of 83 |

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51. Comment #28258 by Druid on March 28, 2007 at 2:40 pm

 avatarHe says "universe exists because general relativity and quantum forced it to exist."-something like that- "if I'm right universe is self contained and governed by science."
What is wrong with it? He does not refer to a divine creation throughout. I think it must be the situation in the universe; self contained and self sufficed.
And Yorker, what is that mistake that you mentioned in your first comment?

Other Comments by Druid

52. Comment #28293 by fatcitymax on March 28, 2007 at 4:21 pm

Forget about nothing, mass, and energy. All is geometry.

Other Comments by fatcitymax

53. Comment #28296 by Spinoza on March 28, 2007 at 4:37 pm

 avatarYorker, I think you completely misunderstood everything I said...

Since you decided to pick nits, I'll admit that I should not have said "before anyone else" about Leibniz's calculating machine... that was a mis-speak about a totally irrelevant point.

Your entire post consisted of attacking irrelevancies and attacking me personally... which is bad form, it's people like you who make us atheists look like idiots. (this is not an ad hominem since I'm not invalidating anything you said be saying it, I'm just stating a fact).

You made the assumption that my use of the word "retarded" was directed at PEOPLE... when the LANGUAGE I used (which you apparently have trouble understanding) clearly shows that I intended it to be directed toward the ARTICLE.

As for my comments about quantum physicists, it's a purely logical point. If QM tells you something illogical, then something is wrong. Creation Ex-nihilo is illogical. Therefore if QM implies creation ex-nihilo then something is wrong with QM.

That's all I meant...

And you are clearly the one who is disturbed by my comments, otherwise you would not have made it an issue in the first place... I stand by what I said, and if I were actually mistaken you'd address the issue, rather than insulting me... but whatever man... I'm gonna let it go now.. you can reply if you like.. but try not to ad hominem so obviously...

Other Comments by Spinoza

54. Comment #28305 by Barnacle on March 28, 2007 at 5:17 pm

 avatarSpinoza, many things, for example many implications of what we find in quantum mechanics, seem amazingly 'illogical' or counter-intuitive - yet they are demonstrated to be true through experiment. That you don't understand or cannot comprehend something does not make it incorrect.

Other Comments by Barnacle

55. Comment #28318 by Shuggy on March 28, 2007 at 5:58 pm

 avatarYorker wrote:
It is my understanding that the IQ scale does not go higher than 170

IQ is just mental age over chronological age x 100, so if a 10 year old can solve problems like an (average) 18 year old, they have an IQ of 180. But as someone wise one said, "Intelligence is what intelligence tests measure", and what intelligence tests measure is the ability to solve problems, usually on paper, hence two-dimensional, at speed.

Other Comments by Shuggy

56. Comment #28319 by ao9news on March 28, 2007 at 6:02 pm

Mark R:

I don't know why you read The Universe in a Nutshell before A Brief History of Time, or if you read History of Time at all, but it is by far the better book. I couldn't even finish reading Nutshell because of the mess of it being printed like a text book with all the drawings and charts. I had the same feeling while reading America: the Book but that is a comedy book, and the textbook layout is part of the joke.

I also like Dawkins's writing of course. There is room for both. I am more fascinated by cosmology and extreme physics, though. Brian Greene's books especially were great for me, much better than Hawking's. I would say that The Fabric of the Cosmos is the most fascinating of those types of books that I've read. It is like A Brief History of Time on crack (there's even Simpsons references).

Other Comments by ao9news

57. Comment #28343 by kcjerith on March 28, 2007 at 8:41 pm

While I love hawking I remember seeing a program on discover (i think)and a survey taken of his fellow physicist Hawking is not even consider to be in the top 20 of his profession. Of course I suppose that could mean

I think labeling the top ten "smartest" people is a bit subjective and feels a bit like public masturbation, however having said that let me throw some names out there

Descartes-no, not for his work in philosophy, but for his work in mathematics.

Karl Friedrich Gauss- mathematician, who at the age of 22 formulated the fundamental Theorem of Algebra

Carl Sagan-Maybe, maybe not, but he least deserves some attention (in my opinion, for what it is worth :) ).

Locke-though Kant is probably a better chocie.

Robert Nozick- Wrote, Anarchy, State, and Utopia. Perhaps one of the most brilliant books every written on the subject of philosophy.

Murray Rothbard- Another brilliant modern philosophy.


Just thought I would throw these names out, of course they tend to reflect my values/likes (though not always, i stink at math!) I think these people have merit.

A little depressing our list lacks women, have to think on that front a little, not like there aren't enough good choices out there.

Other Comments by kcjerith

58. Comment #28345 by kcjerith on March 28, 2007 at 8:48 pm

A correction, or maybe a clarification, just wanting to be accurate.

Ok, my old algebra text book says Gauss formulated the fundamental Theorem of Algebra, however Wikipedia says he just offered several proofs of it. However he still boast a long list of achievements no matter what.

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59. Comment #28425 by Jamesh on March 29, 2007 at 6:56 am

Whenever a scientist uses words that are an abandonment of cause and effect, then I dismiss them. Hawkins was dismissed long ago.

It is actually impossible for nothingness to exist or have ever existed. Nothingness can neither be caused or be a cause. If something is not a cause then it does not exist. It is as simple as that.

Taking this a little step further this truth also then means that that which is fundamental is causal by its very nature. Science has shown us the physical emptiness of things, just as philosophers did centuries before that. That there is no fundamental matter does not mean that there does not exist fundamental forces that create, and in fact are, all things and effects.

The real universe, rather than the limited scientific one presented to us, must be considered to be the totally of all there is, in which case it can have no outside, even an outside of nothingness.

Other Comments by Jamesh

60. Comment #28427 by Yorker on March 29, 2007 at 7:01 am

57. Comment #28343 by kcjerith

Yes, quite a few of his peers think Hawking is overrated, that, and his obstinate battle with Susskind, was what prompted me to make the original comment. The list idea is not something I support either, it's too likely to be biased. That's why I had to avoid listing the accomplishments of Sir Roger Penrose - it would have been too long.

Other Comments by Yorker

61. Comment #28434 by Yorker on March 29, 2007 at 7:20 am

Spinoza,

If, as you say, you were referring to the article being retarded, perhaps you should have said so, then of course I wouldn't have attacked you. But the reality is that I made a simple comment, a few others did, then you commented; your first words being "This is retarded", I think I can be forgiven for assuming you meant one of the previous commenters. Had you said "This article is retarded", you would have heard nothing from me!

Clearly, it's important to strive for accuracy in language usage, mistaken meanings have caused fatalities! Without aiming at you directly, I'm becoming increasingly aware that the evident drop in educational standards especially in the use of English is beginning to be troublesome. How can it be that a youngster can graduate from university and yet be unable to write simple sentences free of glaring spelling and grammatical errors? Such persons do exist, I come across them almost daily, in my era, every graduate could write reasonably well, no matter what their chosen speciality. We have a serious educational problem here, it's even worse in the USA.

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62. Comment #28441 by Yorker on March 29, 2007 at 7:48 am

55. Comment #28318 by Shuggy

Don't want to belabour the IQ thing, but a quick Google reveals that many testing organisations use a limit of 170 for tests. It seems to depend on who does the testing.

Other Comments by Yorker

63. Comment #28443 by sane1 on March 29, 2007 at 8:03 am

 avatarLoved the southpole analogy for the beginning of time, spreading out as lines of latitude. It has a beginning AND there is nothing "before it" or "south of it." Why not?

And if you don't find the current scientific explanation(s) compelling, why on earth would you fall back to religion?, to quote RD.

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64. Comment #28458 by Shane McKee on March 29, 2007 at 9:00 am

 avatarGetting from numbers to the universe? Easy! Right, think of this: if you set up a really big computer to simulate part of the universe (the part that includes your brain), and run it for a while, the simulated brain will experience a "universe" that is the construct within the computer.

This can be represented as an iterative mathematical equation: State[t+1]=Operator(State[t])

If you turn the computer off, what happens? Well, from *your* point of view, the brain has died. But what about from *its* point of view?

Consider you jot down the State on a piece of paper, then switch off the computer. Now, you work out the value of State[t+1] in your head, or using pencil and paper again. Do that for a few iterations. Now program that all back into the computer - the "virtual brain" will not notice that *anything* has changed. From *its* point of view, everything is funky.

Now think of this: the "virtual universe" is just a *number* - a mathematical state - acted upon by an iterative equation - pure mathematics. Yet *within* that system, there is a consciousness which perceives the whole state as being the sum total of its universe. Yet, from *its* perspective, the laws of physics that pertain to its universe etc all apply and work perfectly.

It might ask: "how did my universe pop into being?" Well, we could say that it's just a mathematical abstraction, and doesn't really "exist" in any *real* sense - but to the Virtual Brain, it *does* exist (and we have no contact with it).

From *our* viewpoint, did we "create" a number or an equation, or just "discover" them from mathematical "truth"?

Bottom line: from *outside* our universe, it is just a platonic mathematical abstraction. It doesn't "actually exist". We see it as existing simply because we're in it. There are infinite numbers of other universes that will differ in the original State[0] or in the Operator, but they all "exist" in that they are mathematical, and don't need a host system to realise them *from the point of view of any entities within them*.

Implications? There may actually be NO time zero for our universe - the "seed value" for our universe may be arbitrarily large (and "random"), and what we see as the consequences of the Big Bang are just the settling down of that original number, much like what happens when you seed Conway's Game of Life with a random board.

OK, it may be wrong, but it *is* an explanation for why there is Anything At All, and why the Goldilocks problem is not such a problem. All possible universes "exist", but unless you are *in* it, it's just a mathematical abstraction.

Sorry that's long-winded, but I'll try to trim it down for my Nobel speech (assuming that Hofstadter and Dennet don't beat me to it).

;-)

Other Comments by Shane McKee

65. Comment #28472 by Rtambree on March 29, 2007 at 10:14 am

 avatar64. Comment #28458 by Shane McKee

I will nominate you for a Nobel, but first where does the computer come from that's doing the simulating? Is the computer a simulation in another universe? Can a computer simulate itself into existence and then form a time warp to fix things up chronologically so no laws are violated? (my head hurts).

Is this an application of Occam's Razor in a multiverse, Neo? What's more likely? That we're in an easy-to-run simulation, or in an actual difficult-to-create rare reality?

I'll take the red pill.

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66. Comment #28499 by Fedler on March 29, 2007 at 12:36 pm

 avatarRe: Comment #28319 by ao9news

I, too, liked Brian Greene's Fabric of the Cosmos. The references to The Simpsons were highly entertaining, especially regarding Bart and Lisa running to the Kwik-E Mart via time travel.

Plus, I e-mailed Prof. Greene at Columbia University to thank him for his book, and he actually replied to me. That floated my boat.

Other Comments by Fedler

67. Comment #28510 by Shane McKee on March 29, 2007 at 1:56 pm

 avatarHi Rtambree,

Oops, I think I was a little less than clear. The point is that you don't *need* a computer to do the simulating - all it does is allow us to access that universe.

Let's think of another "universe", where the initial State (State[0]) is the number 3. The Operator is 2*x.

So, State[t+1]=2*State[t]

Now, we hardly need a computer to tell us that the number 3 "exists", nor do we need a computer to realise the operator 2*x. That "universe" can be said to "exist" independently - albeit purely as a mathematical abstraction (from our viewpoint). We can program it into a computer if we want, and gain access to that universe. In changing any of the parameters (State or Operator), we are shifting to another "universe".

It's a bit like the "gene space" or "biomorph space" that Richard mentions in TSG, CMI & TBW. There is "maths space" which is the set of all possible equations and seed values (and subsequent values too, of course).

Well, if this is the case for "3" and "2*x", why should it not be the case for "12341456213624562456345" and "((x^34/x!)/2.35)e^7" - no reason at all. Or for any of the Life "universes" (which I am suggesting are *true* universes).

The point is that the computer itself is redundant - it is just a way for our universe to peek into another perfectly valid universe in "maths space", and see how it evolves. But the ones that we can view on our computers are very simple ones - many (most) are going to be Vastly Complicated, and probably won't result in any interesting substructures arising (like planets, life, and sentient beings).

All I am saying is that the Operator is probably very complicated (there is no reason for it to be *really* simple, other than the fact that the State at t+1 is quite similar, on a macroscopic scale anyway, to the State at t), and the seed value (which can be a multidimensional vector quantity, a real matrix or whatever) is probably pretty complex too.

But that's OK, because we don't need any external hosting system - from *our* viewpoint, it's all working itself out by itself.

Yeah, it makes my head hurt too, but although it's hard to grasp, it's entirely logical, and does away with any need for a First Cause.

If you think about it, the whole "First Cause" argument is "everything that has a beginning has a cause". This is obviously not the case for mathematical sequences, such as the Fibonacci sequence - it just has a State and an Operator. And away you go.

In fact, the more drunk I get (yes, I'm on the Jack Daniels and Coke tonight), the more sense it makes, and the more inevitable it seems. Cripes!

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68. Comment #28514 by Rtambree on March 29, 2007 at 2:12 pm

 avatarThanks for clearing up that little mystery about the universe - we can all move onto more important matters such as do ice cubes or crushed ice go better with Jack Daniels and Coke? Next time you're caught philandering, you can say "No wait, I can explain everything".

No doubt, Alister McGrath will now write a clear and concise rebuttal called 'The Shane Delusion'.

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69. Comment #28517 by Shane McKee on March 29, 2007 at 2:28 pm

 avatarYep, bring it on ;-)

(Indeed, apologies for the length of that last one - no, I'm talking about the *post*, not philandering).

I'm a whole-cubes man for my J&C.

Anyway, the next time some theist comes up to you and says that "everything that has a beginning has a cause", just point 'em in the direction of the Fibonacci sequence and the nearest pub...

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70. Comment #28560 by Chris Davis on March 29, 2007 at 7:26 pm

 avatarRegardless of Penrose's excellent work on various subjects, I'm afraid he's still bound for Purgatory for suggesting that AI will never succeed. And adducing quantum effects in microtubules to explain why neurons are magic and thus impossible to duplicate. Fie, etc.

CD

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71. Comment #28574 by Jamesh on March 29, 2007 at 10:22 pm

Brain Green is like a little school girl sucking up to teachers. He does not have a mind of his own. If he did he would realise that 90% of his books are just total rubbish.

I regard him as a major sinner against rational thought. He promotes a mental abandonment of cause and effect.

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72. Comment #28580 by Shane McKee on March 30, 2007 at 1:07 am

 avatarI agree re Penrose. Very smart dude, but all that quantum microtubule stuff is just silly. We "compute the incomputable" because we have zillions of neurons, massively interconnected. Quite how it all works and hangs together is not entirely clear, but we do know some of the details and general principles, which give us every reason to suppose that we are *not* dealing with the quantum here. Invoking microtubules (at this stage anyway) is like invoking the GOP (Great Omnipotent Pixie) to explain the universe - totally redundant.

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73. Comment #28596 by Rtambree on March 30, 2007 at 4:13 am

 avatarComment #28580 by Shane McKee on March 30, 2007 at 1:07 am

>I agree re Penrose. Very smart dude, but all that quantum microtubule stuff is just silly.

It's just a 20 year old idea. He's not really pushing it as Gospel these days. Nothing wrong with scientists thinking outside the square, especially with regard to consciousness. It's probably wrong, but it's falsifiable, provocative and kept the neurologists honest. I'm following Christof Koch's NCC and Ramachandran's research as more fruitful and illuminating, but progress has been excrutiatingly slow. We know what Active Galactic Nuclei are across the universe and even can analyse atmospheres of planets orbiting other stars, but we know little about what's inside our own coconuts.

As for AI, progress after 50+ years is not encouraging. Minute nematode worms are more intelligent than the most advanced supercomputers.

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74. Comment #28651 by roach on March 30, 2007 at 8:48 am

Rtambree said: "As for AI, progress after 50+ years is not encouraging. Minute nematode worms are more intelligent than the most advanced supercomputers."

Could you elaborate a little? I've heard a vastly differing opinion. I suppose it has to do with the definition of intelligent.

As for the multiverse or bubbles, I hope it's true.

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75. Comment #28658 by Yorker on March 30, 2007 at 9:27 am

73. Comment #28596 by Rtambree

"As for AI, progress after 50+ years is not encouraging"

I think you're being kind here! Even if we could make an intelligent aware computer, I would fight against it. Thankfully that's a long way off. Let's look briefly at what computers are.

They're just a bunch of switches, lots of them, but still just switches. When unpowered they "know" nothing and can do nothing, when powered up the only difference is that software is loaded that "tell" the bunch of switches how to be a computer. Computer memory is nothing more than a means of storing the current setting of switches and/or software instructions. The I/O devices, drives, screens etc. are a way to allow humans to see what the switches are doing and to store switchable settings when the computer is "killed" by removing its power. Despite appearances to the contrary, computers know only two things 1 or 0, true or false, all else is entirely a human construct.

Perhaps we'll develope quantum computers using entangled particles or even a biologically based methodology, but still they'll be simple, unaware machines. If the day ever arrives when we allow computers to become aware, I don't want to be here; luckily, I won't see that day.

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76. Comment #28673 by Richard Dawkins on March 30, 2007 at 11:04 am

 avatarLook carefully at Hawking's article. As far as I can see, he doesn't actually say a single word about the universe coming from nothing. That may be what he meant but, as so often happens, the HEADLINE (presumablly written by somebody at slashdot) is the sole source of the controversy -- in this case the word 'nothing'. Unless I am mistaken, Hawking's own title was quite different.

That word 'nothing' has scared up a fair bit of puzzlement among our Commenters. But whereas most of these were honestly perplexed, one correspondent, 'Wee Flea' tried to turn it to his advantage: tried to turn it into a debating point in his favour as a religious creationist. This is not surprising, as 'Wee Flea' is really the Rev David Robertson, author of The Dawkins Letters (one of the five flea books which keep entertaining us as they are announced one after the other: http://richarddawkins.net/article,807,The-Fifth-Flea,James-A-Beverly ).

In Comment #28147 Wee Flea said, "Creation ex nihilio! Brilliant. Now where have I heard that one before?" Of course he means the book of Genesis. He totally fails to grasp the argument that I have called the Ultimate 747 argument (The God Delusion, Chapter 4). Look at it this way. The brilliant success of Darwin's idea in biology raises our consciousness to the power of scientific cranes more generally, and emphasizes, by contrast, the impotence of skyhooks such as gods. Like all cranes, evolution by natural selection progresses from small and simple beginnings to grand and complex ends. Darwin comprehensively explains life, starting at the origin of life 4 billion years ago. Before the origin of life, we need different cranes, in the domain of chemistry, then before that interstellar nuclear physics, then before that cosmology. Chemists and physicists have been brilliantly successful in pushing things back to within a small fraction of a second of the big bang. But there still remains the question of what happened during that fraction of a second, and the question of why there is something rather than nothing. These questions are deeply mysterious, but physicists are making progress towards their solution, for example with the theory of cosmic inflation which, if it is valid, is another superb crane. But we still need a crane for the very beginning of the universe itself.

Now, suppose that Stephen Hawking really could show that the universe came from nothing (perhaps by a reversal of the process whereby matter and animatter annihilate each other to make nothing). Wouldn't that be the perfect crane? Wouldn't that be an atheist's dream? Yet Wee Flea seems to think that creation from nothing could only mean creation by God.

And this is where the Ultimate 747 comes in. If you allow yourself to postulate a big, intelligent, creative God at the beginning . . . Oh, for goodness' sake, I can't bear to spell it out yet again, it is all in Chapter 4 of The God Delusion. I just wanted to call attention here to the irony. When I first saw the headline above the Hawking lecture. "Stephen Hawking says Universe Created from Nothing" I immediately thought, "Great, how exciting, we are finally getting close to a completely godless explanation of everything." Wee Flea apparently leapt to the opposite conclusion. As it happens, both of us may have leapt unnecessarily, because the headline doesn't seem to represent what Hawking actually said. Whether Hawking meant it or not, I am hoping that one of these days he, or somebody like him, really will show that the universe flared into existence from nothing, or at least from something exceedingly simple, and inflated and evolved into what we see today, by wholly explicable and comprehensible processes.

Richard

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77. Comment #28685 by Fedler on March 30, 2007 at 11:50 am

 avatarProfessor Dawkins,

Thanks for clarifying. I admit when I read through the text I didn't see where Hawking said that either, but I figured I had missed it in some of the technical jargon and analogies and didn't give it a second thought. I need to trust my own instincts better :).

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78. Comment #28712 by sane1 on March 30, 2007 at 1:05 pm

 avatarProfessor:

As for Wee Flea, he needs to look at Hawking's talk more closely. Hawking did not say anything like the universe sprung from nothing due to an outside "force" a la Genesis He said there was no time before it, and nothing existed before it, which would also mean that there was no god there to "create it from nothing."

Or perhaps Wee Flea is telling us that god is "nothing" too - which I would accept.

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79. Comment #28736 by Shane McKee on March 30, 2007 at 2:36 pm

 avatarI think Hawking's speech is pretty much similar to what he was saying in a Brief History of Time (all those years ago), and so far so good. But he doesn't go far enough.

If we play with the "universe as a mathematical abstraction" idea, then we can recognise that from the point of view of a glider zipping along the board in Conway's Game of Life is an inhabitant of *its* universe, which it will perceive as "real", and *we* will be the mathematical abstractions. Quantum mechanics/General relativity apply to *our* universe, but they need not apply to all (such as any of the Life universes).

People get *so* stressed out about this word "exist", as if there is something final and objective about it. We need to get over that. The universe only "exists" if you happen to be inside it; otherwise, it's just a complicated iterative equation. State and Operator. No computer required; no pixie required. [and pixies fall foul of the Ultimate 747 Gambit anyway]

The job of physics will be to find out the initial State and the Operator. It may take a while (good grief, that sounds optimistic!) In the meantime, even if this is currently unprovable, it consigns the First Cause argument firmly to the trash can.

But even if we had no answer to the First Cause Argument, why plug the gap with a pixie?? What a cop-out!

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80. Comment #28880 by Spinoza on March 31, 2007 at 12:58 pm

 avatarYorker, criticism accepted. However, I feel I should deign to point point that judging the literacy of someone on the Internet based on a "comment" is probably not a good idea. Especially since it wasn't a literacy issue, but an ambiguity issue, one that was in part your fault since it should have been clear that when I used "this" I was speaking in general, whereas if I had said "that" I would have meant the directly preceding post (yours).

Oh, and as for the debate about IQ, I feel I should also clear that one up. IQ is NOT mental age divided by life age, multiplied by 100. It hasn't been for a long time. Now it is simply an artificial bell curve based on percentile.

The reason IQ tests are not built to measure beyond 170 is that an IQ of 160 is in the 99.99th percentile (.01% of the world's population). Einstein's IQ was 160.

In fact, percentile IQs are generally lower than the old (Mental/Life)*100 scores...

Goethe's IQ of 210 is an estimate (and probably wrong)... but the man was certainly beyond brilliant if you know anything about him. :) (He was also an atheist!)

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81. Comment #28907 by Jimill on March 31, 2007 at 2:51 pm

 avatarOh no!! This sounds like fuel for the Intelligent Design fire!!!

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82. Comment #28916 by Snaffle on March 31, 2007 at 3:04 pm

 avatarHi all - my first post. I was a little concerned that Spinoza and Yorker were headed for a flame-war, but I'm glad to see an intelligent resolution; good on both of you.
I think one of the problems in all this discussion of Hawking's purported statement that the universe "came from nothing" lies in implicit assumptions about time.
I am by no means a physicist, so my ideas are, at best, vague and non-mathematical on this topic, but references to "cause and effect" are inherently temporal - they depend upon the idea of time itself. To apply this thinking to a supposed "before" of the Big-Bang implicitly involves the idea of Absolute Time (that is, time that exists outside of the events under discussion) - something which I understand Einstein did away with.
We're struggling with something quite outside the conditions for which our intellects evolved. Kip Thorne, in his book "Black Holes and Time Warps" makes the point that we cannot experience Space-Time directly because we do not operate at relativistic speeds in our daily life, instead we experience it as a separation of 3d space + time. When we try to think about such things visuo-spatially, it's not surprising that we essentially can't; we need the abstractions of mathematics to be able to manipulate these ideas, and it's all bound to seem quite counter-intuitive. This, I think, is where Spinoza's objections come to grief; the "Argument from Personal Incredulity" is not a valid objection, merely a statement of human limitation.
These concepts are something that my wife and I call a "Gonk": an idea that, no matter how you try to run it through your mind, just produces nasty grinding-gears noises and an error signal. It's fun to try, though, isn't it? And it says a lot about the flexibility of human intellect that we DO try. :-)

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83. Comment #28947 by Rtambree on March 31, 2007 at 7:20 pm

 avatar82. Comment #28916 by Snaffle

Good post. Yes, perhaps the right question is not "why can't we understand quantum mechanics, relativity, etc" but the question should be...

"How can a savannah ape (98% chimp) comprehend and achieve as much as we do?": moonwalking & ISS, understanding our own origins through phylogeneitic trees, probes to the outer planets, internet connectivity & mobile telecommunciations, fMRI & PET imaging, microprocessors, exploring deep sea vents, navigating virtual worlds, listening to worldwide podcasts & any music on a coin-sized mp3 player, etc

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