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Sunday, April 1, 2007 | Science : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document Postmodernism Disrobed

by Richard Dawkins, Nature

Richard Dawkins' review of Intellectual Impostures by Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont. Profile Books 1998, £9.99. Published in U.S.A. by Picador as Fashionable Nonsense.

Published as 'Postmodernism Disrobed', Nature 394, pp 141-143, 9th July 1998 and, in abbreviated form, in A Devil's Chaplain.



Suppose you are an intellectual impostor with nothing to say, but with strong ambitions to succeed in academic life, collect a coterie of reverent disciples and have students around the world anoint your pages with respectful yellow highlighter. What kind of literary style would you cultivate? Not a lucid one, surely, for clarity would expose your lack of content. The chances are that you would produce something like the following:

We can clearly see that there is no bi-univocal correspondence between linear signifying links or archi-writing, depending on the author, and this multireferential, multi-dimensional machinic catalysis. The symmetry of scale, the transversality, the pathic non-discursive character of their expansion: all these dimensions remove us from the logic of the excluded middle and reinforce us in our dismissal of the ontological binarism we criticised previously.


This is a quotation from the psychoanalyst Félix Guattari, one of many fashionable French 'intellectuals' outed by Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont in their splendid book Intellectual Impostures, which caused a sensation when published in French last year, and which is now released in a completely rewritten and revised English edition. Guattari goes on indefinitely in this vein and offers, in the opinion of Sokal and Bricmont, "the most brilliant mélange of scientific, pseudo-scientific and philosophical jargon that we have ever encountered." Guattari's close collaborator, the late Gilles Deleuze had a similar talent for writing:-

In the first place, singularities-events correspond to heterogeneous series which are organized into a system which is neither stable nor unstable, but rather 'metastable,' endowed with a potential energy wherein the differences between series are distributed . . . In the second place, singularities possess a process of auto-unification, always mobile and displaced to the extent that a paradoxical element traverses the series and makes them resonate, enveloping the corresponding singular points in a single aleatory point and all the emissions, all dice throws, in a single cast.


It calls to mind Peter Medawar's earlier characterisation of a certain type of French intellectual style (note, in passing the contrast offered by Medawar's own elegant and clear prose):

Style has become an object of first importance, and what a style it is! For me it has a prancing, high-stepping quality, full of self-importance; elevated indeed, but in the balletic manner, and stopping from time to time in studied attitudes, as if awaiting an outburst of applause. It has had a deplorable influence on the quality of modern thought . . .


Returning to attack the same targets from another angle, Medawar says:

I could quote evidence of the beginnings of a whispering campaign against the virtues of clarity. A writer on structuralism in the Times Literary Supplement has suggested that thoughts which are confused and tortuous by reason of their profundity are most appropriately expressed in prose that is deliberately unclear. What a preposterously silly idea! I am reminded of an air-raid warden in wartime Oxford who, when bright moonlight seemed to be defeating the spirit of the blackout, exhorted us to wear dark glasses. He, however, was being funny on purpose.


This is from Medawar 1968 Lecture on "Science and Literature", reprinted in Pluto's Republic (Oxford University Press, 1982). Since Medawar's time, the whispering campaign has raised its voice.

Deleuze and Guattari have written and collaborated on books described by the celebrated Michel Foucault as "among the greatest of the great. . . Some day, perhaps, the century will be Deleuzian." Sokal and Bricmont, however, comment that "These texts contain a handful of intelligible sentences — sometimes banal, sometimes erroneous — and we have commented on some of them in the footnotes. For the rest, we leave it to the reader to judge."

But it's tough on the reader. No doubt there exist thoughts so profound that most of us will not understand the language in which they are expressed. And no doubt there is also language designed to be unintelligible in order to conceal an absence of honest thought. But how are we to tell the difference? What if it really takes an expert eye to detect whether the emperor has clothes? In particular, how shall we know whether the modish French 'philosophy', whose disciples and exponents have all but taken over large sections of American academic life, is genuinely profound or the vacuous rhetoric of mountebanks and charlatans?

Sokal and Bricmont are professors of physics at, respectively New York University and the University of Louvain. They have limited their critique to those books that have ventured to invoke concepts from physics and mathematics. Here they know what they are talking about, and their verdict is unequivocal: on Lacan, for example, whose name is revered by many in humanities departments throughout American and British universities, no doubt partly because he simulates a profound understanding of mathematics:

. . . although Lacan uses quite a few key words from the mathematical theory of compactness, he mixes them up arbitrarily and without the slightest regard for their meaning. His 'definition' of compactness is not just false: it is gibberish.


They go on to quote the following remarkable piece of reasoning by Lacan:

Thus, by calculating that signification according to the algebraic method used here, namely:

S (signifier) = s (the statement),
s (signified)
With S = (-1), produces: s = sqrt(-1)


You don't have to be a mathematician to see that this is ridiculous. It recalls the Aldous Huxley character who proved the existence of God by dividing zero into a number, thereby deriving the infinite. In a further piece of reasoning which is entirely typical of the genre, Lacan goes on to conclude that the erectile organ

. . . is equivalent to the sqrt(-1) of the signification produced above, of the jouissance that it restores by the coefficient of its statement to the function of lack of signifier (-1).


We do not need the mathematical expertise of Sokal and Bricmont to assure us that the author of this stuff is a fake. Perhaps he is genuine when he speaks of non-scientific subjects? But a philosopher who is caught equating the erectile organ to the square root of minus one has, for my money, blown his credentials when it comes to things that I don't know anything about.

The feminist 'philosopher' Luce Irigaray is another who is given whole chapter treatment by Sokal and Bricmont. In a passage reminiscent of a notorious feminist description of Newton's Principia (a 'rape manual') Irigaray argues that E=mc2 is a 'sexed equation'. Why? Because 'it privileges the speed of light over other speeds that are vitally necessary to us' (my emphasis of what I am rapidly coming to learn is an in-word). Just as typical of the school of thought under examination is Irigaray's thesis on fluid mechanics. Fluids, you see, have been unfairly neglected. 'Masculine physics' privileges rigid, solid things. Her American expositor Katherine Hayles made the mistake of re-expressing Irigaray's thoughts in (comparatively) clear language. For once, we get a reasonably unobstructed look at the emperor and, yes, he has no clothes:

The privileging of solid over fluid mechanics, and indeed the inability of science to deal with turbulent flow at all, she attributes to the association of fluidity with femininity. Whereas men have sex organs that protrude and become rigid, women have openings that leak menstrual blood and vaginal fluids. . . From this perspective it is no wonder that science has not been able to arrive at a successful model for turbulence. The problem of turbulent flow cannot be solved because the conceptions of fluids (and of women) have been formulated so as necessarily to leave unarticulated remainders.


You don't have to be a physicist to smell out the daffy absurdity of this kind of argument (the tone of it has become all too familiar), but it helps to have Sokal and Bricmont on hand to tell us the real reason why turbulent flow is a hard problem (the Navier-Stokes equations are difficult to solve).

In similar manner, Sokal and Bricmont expose Bruno Latour's confusion of relativity with relativism, Lyotard's 'postmodern science', and the widespread and predictable misuses of Gödel's Theorem, quantum theory and chaos theory. The renowned Jean Baudrillard is only one of many to find chaos theory a useful tool for bamboozling readers. Once again, Sokal and Bricmont help us by analysing the tricks being played. The following sentence, "though constructed from scientific terminology, is meaningless from a scientific point of view":

Perhaps history itself has to be regarded as a chaotic formation, in which acceleration puts an end to linearity and the turbulence created by acceleration deflects history definitively from its end, just as such turbulence distances effects from their causes.


I won't quote any more, for, as Sokal and Bricmont say, Baudrillard's text "continues in a gradual crescendo of nonsense." They again call attention to "the high density of scientific and pseudo-scientific terminology — inserted in sentences that are, as far as we can make out, devoid of meaning." Their summing up of Baudrillard could stand for any of the authors criticised here, and lionised throughout America:

In summary, one finds in Baudrillard's works a profusion of scientific terms, used with total disregard for their meaning and, above all, in a context where they are manifestly irrelevant. Whether or not one interprets them as metaphors, it is hard to see what role they could play, except to give an appearance of profundity to trite observations about sociology or history. Moreover, the scientific terminology is mixed up with a non-scientific vocabulary that is employed with equal sloppiness. When all is said and done, one wonders what would be left of Baudrillard's thought if the verbal veneer covering it were stripped away.


But don't the postmodernists claim only to be 'playing games'? Isn't it the whole point of their philosophy that anything goes, there is no absolute truth, anything written has the same status as anything else, no point of view is privileged? Given their own standards of relative truth, isn't it rather unfair to take them to task for fooling around with word-games, and playing little jokes on readers? Perhaps, but one is then left wondering why their writings are so stupefyingly boring. Shouldn't games at least be entertaining, not po-faced, solemn and pretentious? More tellingly, if they are only joking around, why do they react with such shrieks of dismay when somebody plays a joke at their expense. The genesis of Intellectual Impostures was a brilliant hoax perpetrated by Alan Sokal, and the stunning success of his coup was not greeted with the chuckles of delight that one might have hoped for after such a feat of deconstructive game playing. Apparently, when you've become the establishment, it ceases to be funny when somebody punctures the established bag of wind.

As is now rather well known, in 1996 Sokal submitted to the American journal Social Text a paper called 'Transgressing the Boundaries: towards a transformative hermeneutics of quantum gravity.' From start to finish the paper was nonsense. It was a carefully crafted parody of postmodern metatwaddle. Sokal was inspired to do this by Paul Gross and Normal Levitt's Higher Superstition: the academic left and its quarrels with science (Johns Hopkins, 1994), an important book which deserves to become as well known in Britain as it already is in America. Hardly able to believe what he read in this book, Sokal followed up the references to postmodern literature, and found that Gross and Levitt did not exaggerate. He resolved to do something about it. In Gary Kamiya's words:

Anyone who has spent much time wading through the pious, obscurantist, jargon-filled cant that now passes for 'advanced' thought in the humanities knew it was bound to happen sooner or later: some clever academic, armed with the not-so-secret passwords ('hermeneutics,' 'transgressive,' 'Lacanian,' 'hegemony,' to name but a few) would write a completely bogus paper, submit it to an au courant journal, and have it accepted . . . Sokal's piece uses all the right terms. It cites all the best people. It whacks sinners (white men, the 'real world'), applauds the virtuous (women, general metaphysical lunacy) . . . And it is complete, unadulterated bullshit — a fact that somehow escaped the attention of the high-powered editors of Social Text, who must now be experiencing that queasy sensation that afflicted the Trojans the morning after they pulled that nice big gift horse into their city.


Sokal's paper must have seemed a gift to the editors because this was a physicist saying all the right-on things they wanted to hear, attacking the 'post-Enlightenment hegemony' and such uncool notions as the existence of the real world. They didn't know that Sokal had also crammed his paper with egregious scientific howlers, of a kind that any referee with an undergraduate degree in physics would instantly have detected. It was sent to no such referee. The editors, Andrew Ross and others, were satisfied that its ideology conformed to their own, and were perhaps flattered by references to their own works. This ignominious piece of editing rightly earned them the 1996 Ig Nobel Prize for literature.
Notwithstanding the egg all over their faces, and despite their feminist pretensions, these editors are dominant males in the academic lekking arena. Andrew Ross himself has the boorish, tenured confidence to say things like "I am glad to be rid of English Departments. I hate literature, for one thing, and English departments tend to be full of people who love literature"; and the yahooish complacency to begin a book on 'science studies' with these words: "This book is dedicated to all of the science teachers I never had. It could only have been written without them." He and his fellow 'cultural studies' and 'science studies' barons are not harmless eccentrics at third rate state colleges. Many of them have tenured professorships at some of America's best universities. Men of this kind sit on appointment committees, wielding power over young academics who might secretly aspire to an honest academic career in literary studies or, say, anthropology. I know — because many of them have told me — that there are sincere scholars out there who would speak out if they dared, but who are intimidated into silence. To them, Alan Sokal will appear as a hero, and nobody with a sense of humour or a sense of justice will disagree. It helps, by the way, although it is strictly irrelevant, that his own left wing credentials are impeccable.

In a detailed post-mortem of his famous hoax, submitted to Social Text but predictably rejected by them and published elsewhere, Sokal notes that, in addition to numerous half truths, falsehoods and non-sequiturs, his original article contained some "syntactically correct sentences that have no meaning whatsoever." He regrets that there were not more of the latter: "I tried hard to produce them, but I found that, save for rare bursts of inspiration, I just didn't have the knack." If he were writing his parody today, he'd surely have been helped by a virtuoso piece of computer programming by Andrew Bulhak of Melbourne: the Postmodernism Generator. Every time you visit it, at http://www.cs.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/postmodern, it will spontaneously generate for you, using falutless grammatical principles, a spanking new postmodern discourse, never before seen. I have just been there, and it produced for me a 6,000 word article called "Capitalist theory and the subtextual paradigm of context" by "David I.L.Werther and Rudolf du Garbandier of the Department of English, Cambridge University" (poetic justice there, for it was Cambridge who saw fit to give Jacques Derrida an honorary degree). Here's a typical sentence from this impressively erudite work:

If one examines capitalist theory, one is faced with a choice: either reject neotextual materialism or conclude that society has objective value. If dialectic desituationism holds, we have to choose between Habermasian discourse and the subtextual paradigm of context. It could be said that the subject is contextualised into a textual nationalism that includes truth as a reality. In a sense, the premise of the subtextual paradigm of context states that reality comes from the collective unconscious.


Visit the Postmodernism Generator. It is a literally infinite source of randomly generated syntactically correct nonsense, distinguishable from the real thing only in being more fun to read. You could generate thousands of papers per day, each one unique and ready for publication, complete with numbered endnotes. Manuscripts should be submitted to the 'Editorial Collective' of Social Text, double-spaced and in triplicate.

As for the harder task of reclaiming humanities and social studies departments for genuine scholars, Sokal and Bricmont have joined Gross and Levitt in giving a friendly and sympathetic lead from the world of science. We must hope that it will be followed.

Comments 101 - 150 of 299 |

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101. Comment #29419 by Bonzai on April 2, 2007 at 10:00 pm

 avatarPerhaps we have all missed the point. Academic pomo may actually be a performance art and all the while we are being fooled into taking their works seriously, serious enough to waste time writing on them.

Perhaps the lesson that the "scholars",--artists,-- try to convey is not in the texts they write, but in what they do. They are making the point that they can get away by being total jackases and win praises and adulation for it. This is a very biting social commentary about the world of the high intellectuals.

If that is the case they are certainly genuises. I have to say they put up a good show in the fine satirical tradition of Gogol's Inspector General.

Focault would be amused. I can imagine him gloating in his grave.

This reminds me of a review I read about Andy Warhol. The reviewer said that Warhol was a third rate visual artist. His real art was the way he manipulated and destroyed people around him and he was conscious of it. His projects consisted of systematically turning talented young artists around him into freaks. I don't know if that is fair to Warhol, but seems appropiate for the pomo scholars.

I am not being ironic. I am serious about my theory.

Other Comments by Bonzai

102. Comment #29430 by smurrish on April 2, 2007 at 10:58 pm

Nuclearman,

In essence, you're asking this question: if, at first take, I think that something is complete nonsense, what good is it to take another, deeper look to make sure my assessment isn't incorrect?

There's something to be said for sample size and variety.

Entertain multiple perspectives. Give thought a chance.

Again, personally, I disagree with a lot of postmodernism and think many works are filled with unnecessary jargon and nonsense. Obfuscation is not evidence of higher intelligence, sure. But sometimes there's more to it than that.

Ellen,

Thank you for the information.

Maybe I am incorrect, but I thought that modernism was itself a movement away from Classicism and Enlightenment thinking.

So, the movement in modernism was to look to art and the aesthetic experience for some sort of truth... some new place to find a center... the loss ("Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold") of which (caused by WWI, the great depression, WWII, and the holocaust...considered the great failures of old value systems and ways of thinking) spurred the movement from scientific objectivity to art as a kind of savior. If science and industry could not save us, and in fact made the problem worse, perhaps art could?

Or maybe that was just the rhetoric of one of my teachers. It's been a long time.

Other Comments by smurrish

103. Comment #29431 by WilliamP on April 2, 2007 at 11:06 pm

I have to say that I have read over more than two pages of comments here and I still have little idea of what Postmodernism (PM) is. Some have posted definitions, and then others who claim to know something about PM have said those definitions are wrong. What is it then? Tell us, don't hide behind mystery like religions does.

Those here who claim to understand PM say that Dawkins and others who criticise it here don't understand it. I think, based on their comments, that most people here are trying to understand it. It seems that many who have tried now believe that there is nothing of substance to understand and have stopped trying because they think it is a waste of time.

If the PM side is offended by those of us who supposedly don't understand it making conclusions about it, then try to understand our postion. Above Dawkins asked:

"No doubt there exist thoughts so profound that most of us will not understand the language in which they are expressed. And no doubt there is also language designed to be unintelligible in order to conceal an absence of honest thought. But how are we to tell the difference?"


Yes, how? Dawkins has given an answer, but if the PM people insist that he is wrong, let's hear why. Please, I really would like to know.

If I believe that PM is bull dressed up to make it's proponents look smart, then I would exepct that PM proponents would accuse its critics of not understanding it. When that keeps happening, it doesn't look good for the PM case. Also, if I keep making inquiries into whether or not PM is a bunch of muddle-headed crap, and the only answers that I get about it are muddle-headed crap, then what am I to do than conclude that it is? I honestly would like to know why I'm wrong in thinking this.

Other Comments by WilliamP

104. Comment #29444 by smurrish on April 3, 2007 at 1:04 am

WilliamP,

If you found ellen's post unnecessarily abstruse or hard to understand, then I don't think very much can be done to help you.

Maybe this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

Much of PM is dressed up to make its proponents look smart, but that isn't the whole kit and caboodle.

If your interest in postmodernism is genuine, just take a look around and see for yourself. Maybe take a class? If, however, you feel you are entitled to have the proponents of every field with which you disagree prove themselves to you by your standards, you're going to find the proponents unwilling.

I think the problems with postmodernism are an exaggeration of problems that have existed within philosophy and perhaps academia for a while. Coming to terms, literally, with the subject matter can be very hard, because terminology is often highly nuanced. The problem is worsened by people who spout absolute BS because they've made a career (or practically so) by building an army of straw men.

I remember that even in Existentialism reading some of the works of particular philosophers was very hard. I would have to go over paragraphs again and again to get the nuances of what they were saying correct. When so and so says "being," supposedly a simply word pointing to a simple concept, what exactly does he mean? Many sentences seem to be complete nonsense without the proper frame of mind, without coming to terms with the author.

Sometimes this is because the ideas are highly nuanced. Sometimes it's because the writer isn't very good at saying what he or she has to say. At other times it's because you're being BS'ed.

I got a C+ in Existentialism. I just didn't think spending that much effort on reading something that could have probably been put more simply was worth the effort. It was often painful.

But it would be a mistake for me to say that it was all just a bunch of garbage... even though there is plenty of that in academia.

Other Comments by smurrish

105. Comment #29447 by macronencer on April 3, 2007 at 1:18 am

 avatarYou know something? If Postmodernism had any relevance to my life, I'd continue reading this discussion.

I'm off to make a cup of tea and settle by an open window in the Spring breeze, and read a Science book.

Aaaahhhhh.... that's better. :)

Other Comments by macronencer

106. Comment #29459 by WilliamP on April 3, 2007 at 1:57 am

Ellen, that's more information about Postmodernism than I have ever gotten before when I had asked people about it. That makes some sense, but I don't understand how its unique writing style follows, though. Thanks.

And Smurrish, I'm not trying to hold people to harsh standards, I just expected to find more information in all these comments defending PM. And I also didn't refresh the page for a long time before I posted my last comment and I didn't see Ellen's post.

Other Comments by WilliamP

107. Comment #29464 by Ragnar on April 3, 2007 at 2:16 am

There exists indeed a very real problem that has taken over many in the humanities. It is a movement of pseudointellectual posturing, of passing along plain nonsense as valuable information. A movement of people trying to look smart by acting stupid. Their modus operandi is to produce works as superficially complicated as possible, shielding against the void of reason underneath. Only thing that matters to these people is the perverse respect gained from people who are too naive to see through the smokescreen and conclude that the charlatans posses some sort of superior knowledge beyond their abilities to decipher.

The people defending these actions are pretty much out of weapons when it comes to an honest debate. They could spew their nonsensical jargon but that's not very wise because their opponents might ask them to explain it, so you see little of that. They also could use the same logic that they apparently use to delude themselves into believing that what they're doing is meaningful in some sense, namely the principle that truth is relative and personal. Without the gibberish this would sound pretty childish and idiotic though, because you could indeed back any given claim with this principle. So you see little of this too. They can claim that people are uneducated or stupid (or even that they're on the level of an undergraduate, that epitome of ignorance) and that everyone just has to take their word for it. This argument will of course convince nobody.

What seems to work best for them is the dancing around definitions. They will come up with a multitude of excuses why what you're talking about is not what you're talking about. No concrete defense of anything is ever given, but instead much time is spent on arguing why no defending has to be done. This also works well against the name of the entire (very real) phenomenon I'm talking about here.

You called them postmodernists? Well, they will list every little thing that is considered postmodern, but isn't stricly speaking part of the core problem you're concerned about, and they will concentrate on those.

So, even though we all know this bullshit is very much tied to the postmodernist movement, maybe we should come up with a new term that is very strictly defined as belief in relative truths and the gibberish defense of them. It is easier to build a case against this concept and the people who buy into it. And of course, after established, it can be used as a bludgeon to beat postmodernism itself, too.

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108. Comment #29467 by Bonzai on April 3, 2007 at 2:35 am

 avatarSmurrish,

"Nuanced language" should not be confused with the incomprehensible psychobables such as those cited by Dawkins. One can make a nuanced point on a variety of subjects without resorting to such tortuous verbal gynamistics.

I appreciate Ellen's brief but lucid explanation of some of the context involved. But based on what she tells us these "insights"(if there is any) sure sound rather banal. I just cannot imagine what would be gain by cloaking these rather simple ideas in polysyllable vebal diarrhea.

Take Baudrillard, an acknowledged leading French intellectual star, for example. Ellen explains that his "methodogy" justifies his appropiation of scientific jargons without adhering to their real meanings. But it still begs the question: why did he do it? I cannot see how using obscured technical words from science,--which most of his readers would not have the intuitive grapse on,--in an unapologetically sloppy way helps to clarify nuanced points or evoke the appropiate mental pictures the author tries to convey. I think Dawkins is right that the purpose is to cover up the absence of content and to intimidate the uninitiated.

Perhaps the title of the article is a bit unfortunate as it sidetracks the discussion into the definition of "postmodernism". Dawkins' message can be stated without mentioning the term "Postmordenism" explictly. Whatever you call it, there is a disease that has infected the humanities departments of some of our most prestigeous universities and some top intellectual stars in disciplines such as philosphy and social studies are outright frauds.

Well I just read Ragnar's post. He beats me to it in what my wrote in the last paragraph.

Other Comments by Bonzai

109. Comment #29473 by Jonathan Dore on April 3, 2007 at 3:30 am

Ellen -- I for one greatly appreciate the time you took to spell out an intelligible sketch of what the quoted passages were on about. But doing so confirms my impression that this mode of thought is essentially pointless, uninteresting (because it points out the obvious), and parasitic upon real intellectual achievement. A very sad thing for universities today that it has become entrenched in academic disciplines, such as English and Music, that used to be about the study and analysis of bodies of real work, but are now being assimilated, Borg-like, into branches of this insipid philosophizing -- an obfuscatory froth of commentaries upon other commentaries.

Seems to me that philosophy, which used to encompass the whole of reasoned thought before the introduction of the scientific method, probably still has an essential role only in questions of moral and political thought. (Even logic is probably best thought of now as a branch of mathematics.) Outside those areas, it's hard to see where its continuing relevance lies, except as a historical study of past modes of understanding.

smurrish -- I'm sure Dawkins understands perfectly well that the "modern" in "postmodernism" is a reference to "Modernism" with a capital M. Nothing he wrote suggests he doesn't.

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110. Comment #29476 by Philip1978 on April 3, 2007 at 3:53 am

 avatarIs this one of those "If you think you know post-modernism, you don't know post-modernism" moments?
(Thinking about it, the original quote was about quantum physics and that is incredibly accurate, post-modernism seems to have no accuracy at all asides from its ambiguity!)

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111. Comment #29478 by Jef on April 3, 2007 at 4:03 am

 avatarI would also like to express my thanks to Ellen for her clarifying post, but would also like to add that I share the opinion of Jonathon Dore, (Comment #29473), that the points she has elucidated were, well.. fairly mundane. I simply cannot see the purpose in making so complicated, through the use of obtuse language, ideas which are so ordinary.

There seems to be no real evidence of deeper thinking in any of this, other than a certain creativity, shall we say, in the use of language.

I also liked Smurrish's link to the wiki page for PM, not because it made things any clearer, but because it spent so much of its word count on the view that almost no-one seemed to know what PM was and those that professed to were split as to whether or not it should be considered a field of study at all!

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112. Comment #29489 by puusio on April 3, 2007 at 4:53 am

Someone should start a counter-movement of sorts that encourages people into using the clearest possible language when communicating ideas and warns of the dangers of equating hard-to-understand with deep. After the language becomes clearer, the concepts behind will stand or fall on their own merits.

Especially important would be disseminating this information to new humanities students. People who are already heavily invested in the mumbo-jumbo have too much to lose to admit there might be something not quite right.

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113. Comment #29492 by Dimitar on April 3, 2007 at 5:10 am

September,

I am finding it hard to appreciate your refusal define postmodernism while criticising Dawkins, and others who comment here, of not fully understanding it. How are we to know he is wrong in his judgement, if you don't bother to highlight exactly how he is wrong? As someone who is uneducated in PM (and other areas of philosophy) I would like to know what the basis of your criticism is. To do this you must provide a definition of PM, and highlight exactly how this is misunderstood. Preferably in clear English.

Your refusal to do this is unlikely to render your comments as anything other than a source of mirth.

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114. Comment #29512 by Dr Benway on April 3, 2007 at 7:11 am

 avatarDefinition of post-modernism: objectivity is illusory.

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115. Comment #29518 by Jef on April 3, 2007 at 8:29 am

 avatarRe: Comment #29516 by september

Yet more making noise without any substance again. Frankly, I can't help but be glad you're not a teacher any more, if this was the attitude towards discourse you took into the classroom. I dare say the students are probably better off without you.

I certainly think this discussion would be.

Oh, and when you get time.. do wipe the spittle off your screen, it's unhygienic, if nothing else.

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116. Comment #29521 by puusio on April 3, 2007 at 8:46 am

i know a bit of something, and find dawkins statements unscientific, unacademic, irresponsible, unresearched, and dogmatic.
Just saying it doesn't make it so. Would you care to elaborate? What exactly did Dawkins say on the topic of PM that is not true? And why is it not?

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117. Comment #29524 by Dimitar on April 3, 2007 at 8:53 am

September,
Rather than resorting to invective, just answer the point.

I don't know much about PM, but I can see why the quotes in the above article are twaddle. Therefore if this is not representative of PM, as you suggest, I will need a definition (or examples?) that highlights why you are correct. Otherwise your 'argument' is rendered pointless. So far you have just said that Dawkins et al are wrong, but have not really explained why. I really do not see why this is too much to ask? If they are wrong then explain why they are wrong. To merely state it through the clenched teeth of your diatribe is not enough.

Besides, it is obvious that you won't define it because you can't; not through any inability on your part, but because it is a nebulous concept without any grounding in reality.

PS - you said: "However, with postmodernism, as well as modernism, and the new movement we are in, i know a bit of something, and find dawkins statements unscientific, unacademic, irresponsible, unresearched, and dogmatic. should i give my defintion of postmodernim? theres a reason im not a teacher anymore. should i show my "aces"? some of us arent here to win, nor playing cards"

So what are you here for then? Just to rant about nothing in particular? To disagree but not to explain exactly why you disagree? To share with us the tedious history of your varying sexual identity? It would be good to know, because reading your posts gives no clue whatsoever.

Maybe your posts are actually ironic (or just post modern)? No, that would hint at an intelligence your evident inarticulacy precludes.

Other Comments by Dimitar

118. Comment #29531 by sane1 on April 3, 2007 at 9:56 am

 avatarEllen: Thank you very much for contributing to this discussion. I read your post (to the end), and appreciated it.

September: Your posts started out useless, became tedious and irrelevant, and have turned the corner into annoying. And, no, please do NOT "show us [anymore of] your aces."

Other Comments by sane1

119. Comment #29532 by CakeOrDeath on April 3, 2007 at 9:56 am

I agree with AnnieKM. I sort of had an idea as to the falsity of some of this, but couldn't help to but to try and take it seriously in grad school... those were the worst days of my life :-)
As for defining Postmodernism... I don't know... I keep to the Modernists... we need more Hemingways today than ever before.

Other Comments by CakeOrDeath

120. Comment #29536 by drive1 on April 3, 2007 at 10:33 am

 avatar@ september "dawkins little bit here is folkknowledge of an undergraduate level, that he tries to pass off as more than just that so that all you silly little boys and girls can say, wow postmodernism is garbage, go science!"

The Prof's chair is in the 'Public Understanding of Science' and the strap-line for this very site is 'A Clear-Thinking Oasis'. By necessity his writing is clear and couched in understandable language, so that 'silly little boys' like me can learn and better ourselves. I'm sensible enough to realise that simplification of an idea can distort meaning, but I also appreciate that over-elaboration can obscure.

Now, it may be that PostModernism is expressed in language James Joyce would have appreciated because it's too nuanced and complex to be described in simpler language. But when a champion of plain language and clarity of thought says 'No it isn't', I sit up and take notice.

You've posted several times with what I assume are rebuttals, but all I've learned from your posts is that you've got a chip on your shoulder, and you can't type properly. You tell me .. which source of information would you prefer in my position?

Other Comments by drive1

121. Comment #29537 by Alison on April 3, 2007 at 10:41 am

 avatarTime flies by, or crawls by slowly. The time for argument has long passed. Time is an object moving in relation to us.

We are on time. We are close to Easter. I left at 10 o'clock. Time is a place, and we move in relation to it.

I've used up all my time, but you've got some left. We wasted an afternoon talking about postmodernism. It took too much time to come to a conclusion. Time is a resource.

Already in modern English, we use at least three different metaphorical systems for understanding time, yet have we come to an understanding of time "objectively"? Perhaps time, like many abstract concepts, only becomes understandable through metaphors grounded in our bodily experiences.

Which metaphor is privileged? All have their weaknesses. Time is not a moving object, and we cannot stop it as much as we'd like to. If we really believe time is a place, it's easy to believe you can travel backwards in it. The time is a resource metaphor gives us the unfortunate entailment that it can be stolen, which in America we're reminded of during the Super Bowl week and March Madness spectacle.

So how do we choose which metaphor to use? Which metaphor is privileged? This is the crux of postmodernism as I see it. But, like the metaphors above, extending the entailments of postmodernism out too far yields gibberish. Science (but not objectivism) regains its footing in the presence of intents and purposes. If I want to schedule an appointment with Richard, I would choose Time is a Place and mark down my calendar for 3 o'clock. If I want to make sure I also get my laundry done, I'll invoke Time is a Resource and schedule the appointment to take only one hour. And to express my delight in actually meeting Richard, I'll take Time is a Moving Object and say that our conversation was so good that the time simply flew by.

Other Comments by Alison

122. Comment #29544 by Scifinerdgrl on April 3, 2007 at 11:00 am

My understanding of post-modernism is that it privileges the subjective because everything is subjective and nobody's view is more or less valid than anyone else's. My belief that gravity holds me to the earth is no more valid than that of someone who credits invisible puppet-strings.

Of course, you may disagree. Definitions of post-modernism are like certain body parts. Everyone has one and all of them stink.

Other Comments by Scifinerdgrl

123. Comment #29547 by nine9s on April 3, 2007 at 11:09 am

Jonathan Dore:
Ellen -- I for one greatly appreciate the time you took to spell out an intelligible sketch of what the quoted passages were on about. But doing so confirms my impression that this mode of thought is essentially pointless, uninteresting (because it points out the obvious), and parasitic upon real intellectual achievement.
Bingo. Very well put, Dore.

Since my proposed boycott of september hasn't worked, I'll go ahead and put my two cents in. September, I couldn't care less about your bad childhood, your quotation mark phobia, your hypersensitive feelings, your bizarrely enigmatic "motivation" for being on this forum, or the dick you got cut off. You are a rude, obnoxious, pathetic -- shall I say? -- jackass, and you need to either put up or shut up. You don't need to be profound or learned, you just need to contribute and not waste our time with your abysmal behavior and your boo-hoo story. You've been edited by the moderator several times now, and you still haven't said anything substantive about the subject at hand.

Let's troll this guy's ass and get him/her/it out of here.

Other Comments by nine9s

124. Comment #29550 by fonex_86 on April 3, 2007 at 11:19 am


i love that people think that i MUST give a definition of what postmodernism is, or i else i am either a waste of time, or have no idea what im talking about, or am a postmodernist in disguise.


i love that people think that i MUST give a definition of what a jackass is, or i else i am either a waste of time, or have no idea what im talking about, or am a jackass in disguise.

I hereby second nine9s' definition of jackass: september.

Other Comments by fonex_86

125. Comment #29551 by nine9s on April 3, 2007 at 11:19 am

Alison's point on time metaphors is well taken, but... so what? Why would anyone spend their time parsing metaphors like this rather than, say, solving crossword puzzles or sudoku?

That "time" post read something like a drug trip: Oh my god, Time. Wow. It flies, there's some left, but it's not really a thing. Time is a Resource, and I want to Save some of it. Oh my GOD, man. That's so totally deep.

Let me guess: Postmodernism began in the sixties?

Other Comments by nine9s

126. Comment #29553 by Bonzai on April 3, 2007 at 11:25 am

 avatarThere is no need to argue over the definition of Postmodernism.

It is one of those things that are too loose to give a precise definition. Even if one can list its characteristics it will still be misleading.

A "postmodern" attitude probably makes sense in some context relating to (some aspects of) the human condition or our subjective experience, but it wouldn't be appropiate to extrapolate it to an universial doctrine.

Nietzsche said that we had art so that we didn't die of the truth. In a way it is very "postmodern" and perhaps captures the essence of the postmodern ethos. It is quite evocative and makes some allegorical sense but it becomes aburd if we take it literally and try to apply it in all instances in the way "Postmodernist" philosophers try to apply their "discourse" to all fields of inquiry.This pretension of universal applicability of their "methods" is ironic as pomo is supposedly against methods and against universialism (in passing, someone above said Nietzsche was the father of Postmodernism, that may be, but at least Nietzsche wrote well. Even if he might be bullshiting, there was poetry in his bullshit.Same cannot be said about Derrida and company. Also Nietzsche didn't so much bullshit, he ranted and raved)

The problem is not so much with "postmodern" but with the "-ism" which represents just another attempt of philosophers (and opportunists) to turns minor insights into dogmas and build an industry around them.

Regardless of what the precise definition of postmodernism is (which probably doesn't exist), Dawkins makes valid points about the profusion of pseudo "scholarship" in the humanities and the obvious fraud perpetrated by some of the most respected and adulated "intellectuals" in those "fields". You may use other words for this travasty if you think he unfairly tars all pomo.

Other Comments by Bonzai

127. Comment #29556 by Alison on April 3, 2007 at 11:57 am

 avatarnine9s:

Oh dude, how I totally wished I was actually, like, on some drugs or something when I wrote that. But I wasn't. Rats.

But I hope you didn't miss my real point, which is not so much a defense of postmodernism as it an attempt to explain how extending the entailments of any metaphorical conceptual system too far can yield gibberish. Relativism has some validity; Postmodernism takes it to the extreme and shows it isn't apt in every arena. Is this an earth-shattering revelation, worthy of miles of scholarship? I say no.

More than anything, I hope you didn't miss my jab at metaphysical objectivism. There is no God; there is no God's eye view of the universe.

Bonzai:

You make a better point than I do, and I agree. The profusion of pseudoscholarship grates like the proliferation of pseudoscience, and I love how Richard takes to task these fraudulant heirs to academia. The humanities really do need to return to the human, and especially the human body.

Other Comments by Alison

128. Comment #29557 by Bonzai on April 3, 2007 at 11:58 am

 avatarNine9 wrote:

"Alison's point on time metaphors is well taken, but... so what? Why would anyone spend their time parsing metaphors like this rather than, say, solving crossword puzzles or sudoku?

That "time" post read something like a drug trip: Oh my god, Time. Wow. It flies, there's some left, but it's not really a thing. Time is a Resource, and I want to Save some of it. Oh my GOD, man. That's so totally deep."

Nothing wrong with parsing metaphores as it is a legitimate scholarly past time. Bible scholarship is a respectible pursuit as I am sure even Dawkins would agree.

The problem is that I am not sure these guys are even doing metaphore parsing or writing metaphores. To say that fluid is a metaphore for femininity in fluid dynamics is clearly missing the point as no such metaphorical significance is implied or intended. If the writer tries to use it to create her own metaphore that's fine, but it has nothing to do with scientists not being able to solve the Navier Stoke equations.

A metaphore evokes images and feels that cannot be reproduced with "plain talking". But I don't even know what kind of imageries these people try to evoke with utter gibberish and fragrant misuse of scientific jargons. If you need a 100 page commentary to explain a metaphore it indicates that the metaphore is poorly thought out.

As I said earlier, aside from fraud the only other reason I can come up with for such writing is that it is actually a performance art, a kind sattirical commentary about the intellectual scene.

Cannabis is not to be scoffed at.Some of the best poetry and art work were created during drug trips,but I sure cannot see any high art (no pun intended) in the texts of Derrida and the like. If the intention is to produce art of some kind, all I can say is that philosophy is the last refuge for failed artists.

Other Comments by Bonzai

129. Comment #29559 by Alison on April 3, 2007 at 12:08 pm

 avatarBonzai writes: "Nothing wrong with parsing metaphores as it is a legitimate scholarly past time."

It may turn out to be more than a pastime. I think conceptual metaphors and metaphorical thinking may be a hallmark of human intelligence. We use conceptual metaphor all the time, usually without being aware of it. Metaphor plays a huge role in language and in thought, and some argue that we wouldn't really understand important abstractions without metaphors that relate them back to our embodied experiences.

Another reason to examine metaphors and identify them in our thought processes is that we don't want to mistake our metaphors for literals. Well, unless we want to start passing laws that make it a crime to steal time.

Other Comments by Alison

130. Comment #29562 by puusio on April 3, 2007 at 12:17 pm

Alison:
Time flies by, or crawls by slowly. The time for argument has long passed. Time is an object moving in relation to us.
...
So how do we choose which metaphor to use? Which metaphor is privileged? This is the crux of postmodernism as I see it.
This is just plain idiotic. Words can have different meanings in different contexts, no kidding? Human beings must have been struggling to communicate with each other through the ages until the advent of postmodernism.

Bonzai:
There is no need to argue over the definition of Postmodernism.

It is one of those things that are too loose to give a precise definition. Even if one can list its characteristics it will still be misleading.
So when people use the term "postmodern" in speech, it carries no meaning? Or it means completely different things to different people, rendering any conversation invoking the concept pointless? I don't buy this. There must exist a shared definition, at least some common ground between two people to use a word to convey meaning. More probable is just that if this common ground were spelled out, the definition would sound rather banal and that's why people calling themselves postmodernists reject such a thing.

Other Comments by puusio

131. Comment #29569 by reggiedixon on April 3, 2007 at 12:44 pm

I was explaining this rather pointless discussion to someone today and their brilliant response was "Postmodernism - that's just like playing a game of 'Mornington Crescent' isn't it?"

Other Comments by reggiedixon

132. Comment #29570 by Bonzai on April 3, 2007 at 12:44 pm

 avatarPuusio wrote:

"So when people use the term "postmodern" in speech, it carries no meaning? Or it means completely different things to different people, rendering any conversation invoking the concept pointless? I don't buy this. There must exist a shared definition, at least some common ground between two people to use a word to convey meaning."

Why must there be a clean cut, mathematical definition for every word you use? Just because a mathematical definition is absent it doesn't follow that words are devoid of all meaning. I don't take the "all or nothing" position. Reality is more nuanced and messy than mathematics, unfortunately (sorry if I sound like a postmodernist)Words are ambiguous and admit multiple meanings. They often serve only as triggers in everyday situations.Just ask a lawyer if you don't believe me.

One can list some characteristics of the postmodernist trend but I don't think there is a universial definition that everyone agrees to in the way you use a concept in mathematics, quantum mechanics or evolutionary biology.

But then there certainly exists "discourse" that does not have a shared meaning for everyone participating in it. What are we commenting on on this thread afterall? Seeing their "method" at work I would not expect the "postmodernists" to allow themselves to be pinned down so easily (Perhaps is is also a way to evade the bs meter as "Ragnar" said earlier)

Now do they have a method? Is the universial rejection of methods and freewheeling BS-ing a "method"? Perhaps the logicians can help us out.

Hey, how do you make quotes in this forum? I don't find any button or key??!!

Other Comments by Bonzai

133. Comment #29574 by puusio on April 3, 2007 at 12:58 pm

Bonzai:

I am not saying that there needs to be a "mathematical definition". It should be obvious that when you use a word when talking to someone, you expect that word to mean the same thing to both of you, to the extent of making it possible to get your message through. For any given word, there may or may not be extra nuances not shared, but the bulk of the meaning will be, or the the word is of no use.
Hey, how do you make quotes in this forum? I don't find any button or key??!!
Cut and paste + blockquote tag is how I do it, see the Comment Posting Guidelines link.

Other Comments by puusio

134. Comment #29575 by Bonzai on April 3, 2007 at 1:03 pm

 avatarPuusio,

As I said I think quibbling over what is "Postmodernism" distracts from the main focus of Dawkins' point. If you want to debate with September over definition be my guest. I will take a pass.

Thanks for the tip about quoting.

Other Comments by Bonzai

135. Comment #29578 by puusio on April 3, 2007 at 1:06 pm

My point, I guess, is that although the word "postmodernism" may have been used to mean a host of different things, there are common situations where the term is invoked and the "real" definition can be derived by observing its meaning in these contexts.

Other Comments by puusio

136. Comment #29579 by puusio on April 3, 2007 at 1:09 pm

As I said I think quibbling over what is "Postmodernism" distracts from the main focus of Dawkins' point. If you want to debate with September over definition be my guest.
You're right, of course, and I do think there should exist a word for the thing that we're criticizing here, so as not to have to invoke the term "postmodernism", which sadly is the closest candidate that I know.

Other Comments by puusio

137. Comment #29580 by Bonzai on April 3, 2007 at 1:17 pm

 avatarPuusio,

I gather you can only arrive at an "objective" definition of postmodernism if all self proclaimed postmodernists agree to it. There are certain common tendencies is the best I can put it.

I don't even know if there are precise definitions for most "-isms". Take existentialism for example. If you go by Sarte atheism seems to be an important attribute of an existentialist. But there were religious Catholic and Jewish philosophers who are considered "existentialists" in the literature. Albert Camus is generally described as a major existentialist writer, but he himself bitterly objected to the label. You get the picture.

Other Comments by Bonzai

138. Comment #29620 by irvine-intervention on April 3, 2007 at 4:05 pm

What happens when you combine postmodern philosophy with christianity?

Check this guy out:

http://www.ignite.cd/blogs/Pete/index.cfm

Other Comments by irvine-intervention

139. Comment #29631 by ellen on April 3, 2007 at 5:38 pm

I appreciate those of you who read my post, and in light of a few of the subsequent comments I would like to add a few things:

There are two reasons that insights can seem obvious. The first is that they are actually intrinsically obvious. An example might be something like, "The sun rose this morning." The second reason is that, far from being intrinsically obvious, they have been disseminated to a point where they are incorporated into the popular paradigm.

I think the obviousness of some (though surely not all or even most) of what we are calling postmodern insights are of the latter type. For example, if you had mentioned to Plato, Augustine, any of the Scholastics, Kant, etc. that things have no identity apart from their distinctions from other things (Deleuze's differance), you would have been laughed out of the university. Granted, the idea had certainly been floating around as something unexpressed since before anyone wrote it down, but that's how such things often work. Make if it what you will.

Along a similar line, the influence of this sort of thought is at the very least evidenced by the fact that this discussion even exists. Say of it what you will, but "postmodernism" gets a lot of publicity. I guarantee that, though it's written very rationally/analytically, Quine's Two Dogmas of Empiricism has never received this much attention among the general public. (Funny, since Quine's conclusion in that article could easily be called 'postmodern' by the sound of this discussion.)

With regard to a definition of 'postmodernism', I largely agree with Bonzai's sentiments, and have mentioned before that I think 'postmodernism' is a misguided term that has always been a very loose designation.

I have no defense of the methodology and writing style adopted by the thinkers in question, but I think asking and theorizing about why they choose that way of going about things is little more productive than asking why James Joyce was a novelist and not a painter, when his ideas might have been better expressed through painting (not, by the way, my opinion). The fact is that he was a novelist, and you aren't required to like his novels.

-E.

Other Comments by ellen

140. Comment #29660 by Nuclearman on April 3, 2007 at 11:41 pm

I would like to submit a possible definition for PM that probably is worse than any of the others, and this one is taken from a readily accessible location; namely, the lyrics to Don Henley's song, "They're Not Here, They're Not Coming". To wit:


Well it's a cold, cold, cold, cold cold, cold, cold, cold, post, postmodern world,
No time for heroes, no place for good guys
No room for Rocky the flying squirrel.


Or, alternatively, later on in the song we have:

Well it's a cold, cold, cold, cold cold, cold, cold, cold, post-post modern world,
No authenticity, no sign of soul
The radio won't play George and Merle


Or, finally, it might be:

Well, it's a cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold
Post, postmodern world
No place for sentiment, no room for romance
Bring back the Duke of Earl


Personally, since PM seems to posit that there or no absolutes, and nothing is real, I'll take all 3 of these as a starting point. Hell, at least they rhyme.

Other Comments by Nuclearman

141. Comment #29664 by bruno_burned on April 4, 2007 at 1:16 am

 avatar
puusio: Someone should start a counter-movement of sorts that encourages people into using the clearest possible language when communicating ideas and warns of the dangers of equating hard-to-understand with deep.


Charles Sanders Peirce worked on pragmatism to address the problem of clarity, and was enormously influential in the creation of the modern day scientific method. Personally, I think the most effective scientists are the most accessible - not those that dumb down, of course. But those that, at the least, value parsimony.

irvine-intervention: What happens when you combine postmodern philosophy with christianity?


You think that's bad - check out the Emerging Church of Christianity. I've debated with these folks before. Not only can you not debate them on the truth of God, you can't even debate them on the existence of "truth". Its unbelievably insane.

Other Comments by bruno_burned

142. Comment #29672 by irvine-intervention on April 4, 2007 at 2:26 am

bruno_burned: You think that's bad - check out the Emerging Church of Christianity. I've debated with these folks before. Not only can you not debate them on the truth of God, you can't even debate them on the existence of "truth". Its unbelievably insane.


Yes, they certainly seem to be the slipperiest eels in the river out of eden:)

Other Comments by irvine-intervention

143. Comment #29723 by Fire1974 on April 4, 2007 at 1:00 pm

May I submit this as a definition of Postmodernism?

Postmodernism: An assertion, that through careful examination, it has been observed that current standards of understanding are subjectable to scrutiny by sources of discourse that are readily unavailable to any current interpretation capabilities or relevant corroborative understanding.

Or perhaps this one.

Postmodernism: Assertions generated under direct influence of one's own rectum.

Perhaps Richard Dawkins could regard the latter as a translation into, "clear and meaningful English"

Other Comments by Fire1974

144. Comment #29813 by Russell Blackford on April 5, 2007 at 12:41 am

I don't pretend to understand what post-modernism is. That's partly because of my undoubted intellectual limitations, but also partly because it's not just one thing. In part, it's a reaction to modernity, which largely means 18th century Enlightenment thinking and concepts of "enlightenment" and "progress" in general - and the idea that the world can be understood through reason. In part, it's a reaction to the artistic and literary movement we call Modernism, which is something completely different (Yeats, Joyce, Eliot, Lawrence and their counterparts in other languages, and other arts, were seldom, in any sense, rationalists). In part, it's other things again. All these things may bear some kind of complex family relationship to each other, but there's no single theory.

I like the posts by Bonzai on this thread, which seem to ring true for me in the description of what's going on.

What I really dislike amongst a lot of this stuff is the element of epistemic relativism,or truth relativism, that runs through it - I think that epistemic relativism is pretty crazy. I do wish people would be careful, however, when they throw around the word "relativism" as if it's obvious what it means - it can refer to many different things, including some idiotic positions in epistemology, but also some perfectly respectable and arguable positions in meta-ethics (as well as some vulgar and stupid ones).

Finally, the person whose writing does make me think that there's possibly more substance in at least some of the notorious French writers than I can find there (so far) is Samuel R. Delany, one of the writers whom I most admire. My instincts on this are, however, very different from Delany's: I enjoy Richard Dawkins' writing for its explanatory clarity, and I struggle, myself, to write as clearly as I can, whereas Delany wants to argue for the merit of "difficult" writing.

One day, I'd like to put to the test what Delany has to say in defence of the whole enterprise of difficult French writing. The place where he expresses his views most succinctly and (ironically, perhaps) pretty clearly is an extended written interview that he did with Kenneth James, published in his (i.e. Delany's) book Silent Interviews. It would be fascinating to use this as a kind of guide to what one admirable, lucid intellect finds valuable in Derrida, Lacan, etc. - actually use it as a sort of reading guide. I've never managed to put aside the time to do this, alas.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

145. Comment #29830 by Veronique on April 5, 2007 at 3:57 am

 avatarWow, this has been raging for longer that I thought it would.

Has September been left behind? I sure hope so.

I can't believe that so much oxygen has been devoted to the BS that is perceived, written about (with money made - sob, I bought a couple of these so-called treatises) and marketed as serious works!

Language is a bitch. It can be so manipulated with so many nuances of meaning as to flummox and intrigue the unwary.

I am not as erudite as most of you on this thread. But I used to be an english teacher in a foregone time in my life. I always taught clarity, understanding of etymology and present common usage with specific limitations on that usage. In other words, don't be sloppy.

Post-modernism or pomo as it appears to be called, subverts common usage and ascribes meanings, tortuous to the extreme in interpretation, that are so arcane as to be meaningless, cf. the postmodernism generator - quite hilarious, beautifully constructed and utterly meaningless.

Well! that's post-modernism for you; words upon words, upon words. English is brilliant at supplying the most adept meanings for anything one might want to use to espouse whatever one might want to convey to grapple anyone else to a specific and particular meaning of any particular word.

Maybe this is why post-modernism writings are as wordy as they can are. More words, more undercurrent meanings (English is brilliant at this), more confusion, more feeling that "I must study this, it's very intellectual and I must come up to speed, even if I don't know what it means on my surface reading of this material".

It appears to me that pomo 'meaning', deliberately developed to obfuscate and pretend to erudition, was the raison d'etre for a burgeoning pretend 'intelligentsia' that lived briefly and was then neglected for want of content. Snuffed out, as it were.

So be it. Sleep thee well and forever. Can we please start talking in common language again. Thank you RD for curbing your natural exuberance and somewhat angsty nature by not replying any more to this thread. Well done. I hope to meet you one day in Australia.

Case closed
V

Other Comments by Veronique

146. Comment #30014 by elias001 on April 6, 2007 at 6:45 am

September, can you please stop attacking Dawkins, I am not sure if your jabs are effective because you are being ignored right now by the entire forum, and also, Dawkins never attacked you personally and he has never denigrated your intellegence both on a personal and on an academic level. It goes the same for your diatribe against others on this forum.

Dawkins was making a different point on postmodernism then the one you are reading. YES, READ WHAT I&#12288;AM&#12288;SAYING, YOU&#12288;HAVW MiSREAD HIM 180 DEGREES. AND YES< I AM USING POSTMODERNISTS IDEAS ON READING AND INTERPRETATION ON YOUr ACCUSTATIONS OF DAWKINS.

His point is that academics uses elliptical writing style as a way to mask their poor borrowing of scientific concepts and arguements to make their points. Because a scientist reads these academic writings, their lack of understanding of science shows through and through. Whether these academics has any things of substance to tell the world, that is another matter. According to Dawkins and many others, this type of practices leads to poor scholarsihp, as well as a lack of intellectual integrity. And by no means can this type of practice can or should be considered an honest endeavour for critical inquiry.

I don't need you to tell me what post-moderism is, and may i say that the original intent of the post-modernists movement in academia was not meant itself to be used in such an abusive fashion. I think Nietzche would be shock if he is alive today. September, let me ask you this, have you forgotten what the definition of "critical inquiry" really means, what it meansto make a simple argument using logical reasoning. And do you really think that such kind of writings as criticized by Dawkins, are these writings having any praticial beneficial benefits in helping to emancipate those who have been oppressed by society.

Other Comments by elias001

147. Comment #30015 by gesswatt on April 6, 2007 at 7:27 am

Defining pOMo would be difficult -great topic to begin on April Fools Day. Why is so-called post modernism called "POST" modernism? was perhaps asked comment 29212 by William --
??
The following assertions may not be verifiable, in any sense.

Modernism - an artistic manifesto which began as a reaction to the horrors of World War I, (circa 1905), which to many artists proved "life is s--t"

Post-modernism - an artistic manifesto which began as a reaction to the rise of secular power, (ie Napoleon circa 1800). Postmodernists are informed that the only worthwile philosophy consists in "Buy my S--T!"

Its a sales gimmick.

Other Comments by gesswatt

148. Comment #30022 by kurtdenke on April 6, 2007 at 8:35 am

Postmodernism reminds me very much of Gnosticism. I've spent quite a lot of time with the Nag Hammadi texts, trying to figure out just what the heck those people believed. My conclusion is that they believed that if ideas are so incoherent and ill-formed as to be barely expressible, and if the expression of those ideas is so difficult and obscure that it does a good job of confusing the uninitiated while sounding important--well, that's wisdom. Isn't that what postmodernists believe?

In fact, I think a lot of people believe that. It forms the core of all the "mystery" religions. Outside of the realm of religion, look at the law; when I used to practice law, I knew lawyers who acted as though they believed that a brief wasn't any good if the judge could actually understand it (now, guys like that tend not to do all that well in the profession, for understandable reasons--but the schools do generate a few of 'em). When people get confronted about their religious beliefs and asked to justify them, they often retreat into a sort of "verbal obscurity defense" mode.

There are, of course, ideas that do require a crowd of four-syllable words to describe them well. But the magic of language is that any idea, no matter how pedestrian, can be dressed up in the glorious robes of verbal complexity. I had a law school classmate who was utterly incomprehensible; he asked questions of professors which left them dumbfounded; I'm sure the professors would have had good answers to the questions, if only they could have understood what was asked. I wish I had some transcripts of his little discourses; they were brilliantly awful. So that I wouldn't lose the flavor of it, I decided to commit one of his sentences--a very, very short sentence, as his sentences went--to memory.

He said to the professor: "That pertains to clarification of the context of the question I was about to propose." I didn't know what that meant, and I had to think about it for a while. It means, of course, "I was going to ask you about that." Mind, this was one of the shortest and simplest sentences I ever heard the man speak. I do not think he could have ordered a muffin at the law school lunch cart without at least four dependent clauses.

I think it made him feel smart. And I think that's why the Gnostics did it, and I'm sure that's why the postmodernists do it.

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149. Comment #30045 by peter.evolves on April 6, 2007 at 10:48 am

In comment #29279 JasonG notes postmodernism's presence in musicology. As a composer with a graduate degree, I can only lament the truth of his statement and its mind-numbing effects on musical criticism, (a)historical interpretation (those can be fun from time to time) and theory. There is an immense scrap heap of academic "research" on music that is little more than opaque piffle.

In the spirit of saying very little with too much, on a subject we all hate, here are my po-mo thoughts on intelligent design:

The IDC's hermeneutic, ontological and pseudoscientific discourses, most notably Dembski's, shrouds its beinghood in the postmodern-dillemma-ridden communiques bound within discursive dialectical spaces wherein the heuristics fail to explicate their own obfuscatory methodological frameworks of parametric inflection. The resultant paradox contained within the definitional matrices of both "What is intelligence?" and "What is purpose?" lead, ultimately, to the unbound bind of the Deux ex natura of their Deus ex machina that diminishes the patina of the former's resplendance by transmogrifying the amorphous into that which is hypothesized and therefore forced prostrate beneath the lens of methodological naturalism, a space wherein all is treated to the sharp blade of Occam's Razor. It represents a sub-order of homo sapiens' - between the YEC/OEC/IDC v. Evolutionary Scientists/philosophical materialists - eternal conflict's attenuation through meta-processed non-discrursive function along an illusive hegemonistic timescale not unlike Heidegger's inquisition of the definitional parameters of "is" and thusly "not is." The questions, then, are not, "What are our origins?" or "What are our ends?" but IS "How do we understand non-linear post facto extinction in time schemes disembodied from their semiotic foci?"

I just like to let that one out every once in a while.

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150. Comment #30051 by Bonzai on April 6, 2007 at 11:53 am

 avatarOn second thought perhaps we are all missing the point. Maybe you have to read pomo texts with their method in order to "get it". Here I intentionally leave out what "it" is, because according to their philosophy that is in the eyes of the beholder.

Perhaps the point of pomo writing is not to convey meanings at all. So we all are barking up the wrong tree by lambasting their obscure style and scant content. It may be a kind of attempted creation with words that has gone real bizzare, a bit like some torturing "postmodern" music. Here is an example that may illustrate my point, which is perhaps too profound to put in words. In a concert a violinist came on stage to "play" his violin with power tools. In the end he sawed the violin into pieces. In the process the violin whined and screamed in a way that sounded like skinning a cat alive. Obviously you would be missing the point(if there was any)to write a review saying that it was bad music because it had neither lyricism nor rhythms.

After reading the testimonies of some aficionados of the genre, I get the impression that the purpose of reading Lacan is probably not so much to get meanings, but to indulge in some kind of intellectual acid trip,to be lost in some multidimisonal super Riemannian manifold laid out in a mad jumbo of words. It is a literary version of (post?)modern art. In some sense pomo writings may be a self parody caught in an upward spiral of cascading layers of absurdity like a compact manifold spreading out to the point of infinity. Like in all genres a writer must constantly outdo himself.

It is still a charade in my uneducated opinion, but perhaps not for the reasons that we assume.

P.S. elias001, September is long gone, it is April now and soon it will be warm. Yehe!

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