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Monday, September 17, 2007 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in them?

by Richard Dawkins, The Independent

Reposted from:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/letters/article2970799.ece

[Below is the full, un-edited letter originally sent to The Independent]

Sir: Peter Stanford ("Doubts about Dawkins",14 September) writes that the recent books by Christopher Hitchens and me "deserve a decent response. But how to fashion it?" A decent start would be to read them. Page 1 of The God Delusion would suffice to demonstrate that I don't "caricature all church-goers as simple-minded fundamentalists" (Google: "Affection that I still retain for the Church"). Of course the church-goers that Stanford or I meet socially are not simple-minded fundamentalists. Unfortunately they are heavily outnumbered, especially in the most powerful country on Earth where nearly half the population believes the universe began after the domestication of the dog, and a slightly smaller proportion yearns for a Middle East Armageddon when they'll be raptured out of their clothes and "up" to Heaven. These people have the vote and we all live with the consequences, which are made all the more dangerous by the equally simple-minded fundamentalists of the Islamic world.

The "response" that Stanford recommends, by John Cornwell, does not display a very Christian standard of decency, as Stanford will discover if he Googles "Honest Mistakes or Willful Mendacity". He may have better luck with some of the other thirteen "replies" that have been published, under titles that monotonously permute "Dawkins", "God" and "Delusion", many in jackets that are equally derivative (Google: "The Fleas are Multiplying").

Cornwell's slighting of my reading list is singled out for special praise by Stanford. This is a stock criticism. It assumes that there is a serious subject called Theology, which one must study in depth before one can disbelieve in God. My own stock reply (Would you need to read learned volumes on Leprechology before disbelieving in leprechauns?) is now superseded by P Z Myers' brilliant satire on the Emperor's New Clothes (Google "Courtier's Reply").

Stanford's trump card is his observation that "religion is not primarily about belief, as we understand the word today, but faith." Religion, as he sums it up, "simply isn't about facts." Exactly. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Richard Dawkins
Oxford

[Also see this forum post by Richard, which is a follow-up letter to The Independent highlighting some errors.]

Troll Comments 1 - 17 of 17 | | View the Regular Comment Thread

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1. Comment #70866 by steve99 on September 17, 2007 at 5:28 am

 avatarOh no! Not another 'God does not exist in the Universe' argument. Why can't they see how dumb this is? It is easily countered:

Even if God exists and has no contact with the Universe, and people have a belief that He exists, then this belief is still a form of delusion, as it cannot be based on any evidence, so can be nothing more than co-incidence.

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2. Comment #74006 by Dr Benway on September 27, 2007 at 4:21 am

 avatarsteve99, Let's ask Josh to add a button for "excellent" or something like that. So if something gets flagged trollish, it can be returned to the full thread if someone else thinks it's excellent. There will have to be a majority opinion to keep a post out of the main thread.

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3. Comment #74007 by BillySands on September 27, 2007 at 4:24 am

 avatarWhat's wrong with Steve's post?

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4. Comment #74015 by Quetzalcoatl on September 27, 2007 at 4:44 am

 avatarPerhaps it might be worth being able to see who flags posts as being Trollish? I honestly can't see what's wrong with Steve's post, so maybe the flagging was done out of spite?

Dr Benway- good point. Perhaps you should repeat it on the main thread, so more will see it.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

5. Comment #74020 by steve99 on September 27, 2007 at 4:53 am

 avatarDr Benway... personally, I would be happy even with a button to indicate a 'dumb' post. I have been guilty of many such posts... responding to points not made, or hastily replying before giving things enough thought. It is the implied motive assigned to 'troll' that I don't like.

Other Comments by steve99

6. Comment #74048 by _J_ on September 27, 2007 at 5:58 am

 avatarBrother John

I have nothing substantial to add to the responses already made by other atheists here to your post, which I thought was excellent. In terms of views on living a good life, I agree with you wholeheartedly. The only difference seems to be where we lie on the spectra of 'propensity to believe in god' and 'desire to have things explained rationally, or not at all'. Tomayto, tomahto.

revcort

That was very gracious of you. I certainly appreciate your readiness to reflect on your actions and to apologise for anything there that you find wanting. That's an admirable trait.

If this isn't too cheeky (and I apologise in advance in case it is), do take care not to just hit the 'Reset' button and wash away everything we've been chewing over with an overdose of humility. In terms of the actual discussion (you know, 'Is there a god?' and all that) we still stand in the same place, irrespective of how loveable or rude we've all been. Like the other atheists here, I think that the god who speaks to you is really nothing more than your mind communicating with itself (and don't imagine for a minute that that to believe so is to diminish the experience, by the way!). Now, in our new, all-good-friends-being-nice-to-each-other manner: do you have anything to suggest otherwise?

Don't worry if not, by the way. You're not going to be pounced on and attacked for taking a more moderate 'I accept that there's no evidence but I can't help believing it' line. That's interesting in itself, and something worth us all trying to understand a little better.

I'm aware that I'm essentially inviting you to climb up onto the lab table and expose your guts for scrutiny, so feel free to say 'No, thanks'. But I think that may be where we have to go, if we're going to go anywhere.

Other Comments by _J_

7. Comment #74050 by _J_ on September 27, 2007 at 6:00 am

 avatarUm, why are my comments deflecting to the 'alternative' thread...?

Other Comments by _J_

8. Comment #74052 by Quetzalcoatl on September 27, 2007 at 6:01 am

 avatarIf you're in the alternate thread when you make a post, that's where your comments go. Get ye to the proper thread!

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

9. Comment #74055 by _J_ on September 27, 2007 at 6:04 am

 avatarIf this one ends in the alternative bin as well, I guess I'm a permanent troll now.

Any thoughts on that, anyone?

Can anyone hear me in this scary yellow limbo...?

Other Comments by _J_

10. Comment #74056 by _J_ on September 27, 2007 at 6:05 am

 avatarQuetz - all three of my comments were made in the regular thread. I even deleted and reposted the first one a couple of times.

My posts seem to be automatically rerouting to this place.

Josh, why has thou forsaken me...?

Other Comments by _J_

11. Comment #74071 by _J_ on September 27, 2007 at 6:44 am

 avatarAm I back in the real, blue-grey world, I wonder...?

EDIT - No. Clearly not.

Other Comments by _J_

12. Comment #74073 by Quetzalcoatl on September 27, 2007 at 6:47 am

 avatarI suggest you contact Josh or anyone involved in the technical side of the site directly, and get this rectified. Have your posts on other threads been trolled, or is it just this one?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

13. Comment #74076 by _J_ on September 27, 2007 at 6:53 am

 avatarQ - Seems to be just this thread. I'll go and ask. Cheers.

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14. Comment #74155 by Goatsbane J on September 27, 2007 at 1:23 pm

 avatarTroll me, will you, trotting little goaty bastards? Well, behold the fruits of thy labours. Welcome to my underbridge...

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15. Comment #75043 by _J_ on October 1, 2007 at 12:41 pm

 avatar
Do what you want. Be nice. Get along. Promote peace. I'm ok. You're ok. [singing "I love you just the way you are"] Don't go changin' to try to please me. [end song] We'll all be fine in the end.

Aww, that sounds lovely!

But I guess then we all have to go to the place with the wailing and gnashing of teeth, eh? Jahweh doesn't put much value in getting along nicely, does He?

I know, I know: He only asked Him to accept Him as god, which is a little thing given what He's supposed to have done for us.

But it seems kind of crazy to me that He should go to such effort to create us, and everything, and spend so long giving us directions and smiting folk, and then put together this intricate redemption strategy to rescue us from the sin that He got us into - and then fail completely in the final detail of giving us one good reason to believe that any of it's true. I mean, just one decent bit of evidence that the other 'false' gods haven't got. One way of telling between the ecstasies of the true faithful and the idolators. Just one thing that isn't clearly more likely to be a mistake or a lie.

It's like working 12-hour days for half your life on some massive project, and then forgetting to sign the contract at the end. Funny, funny sort of God.

Just idle musing there, revcort. Doesn't add anything new to what either of us have said, so don't worry about responding.

EDIT: Aw shit. Forgot I was a troll.

Other Comments by _J_

16. Comment #75718 by irate_atheist on October 3, 2007 at 12:58 pm

 avatarI've come on this thread to enjoy temporary respite from the lunatic revcort.

I'm convinced people have been committed to asylums whilst showing fewer symptoms of psychosis than he exhibits here.

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17. Comment #76008 by _J_ on October 4, 2007 at 9:53 am

 avatarrevcort, 1072
He insists that Strobel should have interviewed more skeptics and that the "experts" he interviewed were too biased or corrupted with religiosity to tell the truth. This is about what I expected to see there.

Interesting tactic for a law journalist, isn't it? You might think he'd be used to the idea of there being a prosecution as well as a defence.

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