Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Sunday, February 25, 2007 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document Faith

by Guardian Unlimited

Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2021337,00.html

Britain's new cultural divide is not between Christian and Muslim, Hindu and Jew. It is between those who have faith and those who do not. Stuart Jeffries reports on the vicious and uncompromising battle between believers and non-believers

protest
Protesters from different faiths join to oppose proposed new regulations on gay adoption. Photograph: Martin Godwin

The American journalist HL Mencken once wrote: "We must accept the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." In Britain today, such wry tolerance is diminishing. Today, it's the religious on one side, and the secular on the other. Britain is dividing into intolerant camps who revel in expressing contempt for each other's most dearly held beliefs.

"We are witnessing a social phenomenon that is about fundamentalism," says Colin Slee, the Dean of Southwark. "Atheists like the Richard Dawkins of this world are just as fundamentalist as the people setting off bombs on the tube, the hardline settlers on the West Bank and the anti-gay bigots of the Church of England. Most of them would regard each other as destined to fry in hell.

"You have a triangle with fundamentalist secularists in one corner, fundamentalist faith people in another, and then the intelligent, thinking liberals of Anglicanism, Roman Catholicism, baptism, methodism, other faiths - and, indeed, thinking atheists - in the other corner. " says Slee. Why does he think the other two groups are so vociferous? "When there was a cold war, we knew who the enemy was. Now it could be anybody. From this feeling of vulnerability comes hysteria."

"We live together but we don't know each other," says Tariq Ramadan, the Muslim scholar and senior research fellow at St Antony's College, Oxford. "And this is something not just true of secularists, but of people of faith. I moved to Britain shortly after the July 7 2005 bombings in London and since then things have changed radically. Everyone treats the perceived 'other' as a threat."

Or so one might be forgiven for thinking if one listens to the most vocal of dogmatic believers and non-believers.

For example, Richard Dawkins, the British scientist and chair for the public understanding of science at Oxford University, whose perhaps timely insistence on the hideousness of the other fellow's wife and fatuousness of his offspring made his book, The God Delusion, sell 180,000 in hardback - a figure that rivals sales of Jordan's memoirs, thus demonstrating what an appetite there is for unapologetically militant atheism. This is the man so voguishly intemperate that when speaking to the Times recently about Nadia Eweida, the British Airways worker whose employer refused to allow her to wear a Christian cross openly to work, said: "I saw a picture of this woman. She had one of the most stupid faces I've ever seen."

Before The God Delusion was published, Dawkins wrote about something called Gerin oil that was poisoning human society. "Gerin oil (or Geriniol, to give it its scientific name) is a powerful drug that acts directly on the central nervous system to produce a range of characteristic symptoms, often of an antisocial or self-damaging nature. If administered chronically in childhood, Gerin oil can permanently modify the brain to produce adult disorders, including dangerous delusions that have proved very hard to treat. The four doomed flights of September 11 were, in a very real sense, Gerin oil trips: all 19 of the hijackers were high on the drug at the time." Gerin oil, of course, was an anagram of religion. His bestseller charged that God was a "psychotic delinquent", invented by mad, deluded people.

The backlash against Dawkins' abusiveness, as well as his arguments, has started. Oxford theologian Alister McGrath has just published The Dawkins Delusion?. He argues: "We need to treat those who disagree with us with intellectual respect, rather than dismissing them - as Dawkins does - as liars, knaves and charlatans. Many atheists have been disturbed by Dawkins' crude stereotypes and seemingly pathological hostility towards religion. In fact, The God Delusion might turn out to be a monumental own goal - persuading people that atheism is just as intolerant as the worst that religion can offer."

It is worth noting that The God Delusion included an appendix entitled "a partial list of addresses, for individuals needing support in escaping from religion". In this Dawkins offers a similar service to the National Secular Society whose certificate of de-baptism is downloadable from www.secularism.org.uk. "Liberate yourself from the Original Mumbo-Jumbo that liberated you from the Original Sin you never had," urges the site.

Dawkins and the National Secular Society, though, are no match for Christopher Hitchens in their hostility to religion. His new book, God Is Not Great: the Case Against Religion, is to be published by Atlantic Books in May. Its first chapter, drolly entitled Putting it Mildly, concludes: "As I write these words and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything." (Hitchens' italics.)

John Gray, professor of European Thought at the London School of Economics, whose book Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia will be published later this year, detects parallels between dogmatic believers and dogmatic unbelievers such as Hitchens and Dawkins. "It is not just in the rigidity of their unbelief that atheists mimic dogmatic believers. It is in their fixation on belief itself."

Gray argues that this fixation misses the point of religions: "The core of most religions is not doctrinal. In non-western traditions and even some strands of western monotheism, the spiritual life is not a matter of subscribing to a set of propositions. Its heart is in practice, in ritual, observance and (sometimes) mystical experience . . . When they dissect arguments for the existence of God, atheists parody the rationalistic theologies of western Christianity."

The intolerance for people of faith, though, might not seem to be the preserve of only angry atheists such as Dawkins and Hitchens. Instead, there is a widespread fear that religion is being treated as a problem to British society, best solved by airbrushing it from the public sphere. British Airways' insistence that employee Nadia Eweida remove her Christian cross, and Jack Straw's plea to Muslim women constituents to remove their veils at his surgery, have helped bring a sense of mutual persecution to many people of different faiths (including yarmulke-wearing Jews and turban-wearing Sikhs) - and a sense of solidarity. Many people of faith share a concern that Britain may be following secularist France, where 2004 reforms meant that "conspicuous religious symbols" could not be worn in public places, such as schools.

One particularly fraught current issue creating inter-faith solidarity is gay adoptions. Many Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims and Jews last month united against the government's sexual orientation regulations that would mean all adoption agencies could not discriminate against gay couples in placing children with adoptive parents.

Catholic leaders warned that their seven adoption agencies could not breach Vatican guidelines against allowing gay couples to adopt. Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, supported the Catholics' stand, as did the Federation of Synagogues. And, of course, the issue of homosexuality is also dividing the Anglican communion. For evangelical groups such as Reform, the C of E is polarising into two churches, one "submitting to God's revelation", the other "shaped primarily by western secular culture". Again, western secular culture - if not of Dawkins' stamp - is seen as the worm in the apple, corrupting not just British society but the church itself. By contrast, for liberals in the church, whose number includes many gay vicars, the evangelicals' hostility to homosexuality seems unChristian, as does their stance on gay adoption.

The gay adoption issue also outraged many non-believers, among them philosopher AC Grayling, author of Life, Sex and Ideas: The Good Life without God. "These groups are trying to be exempt from the effort to be a fair society, and we are faced with the threat of a possible return to the dark ages. We are trying to keep a pluralistic society, and elements in the Christian church and other religions are trying to destroy it."

Why this departure from tolerant, if nicely ironic, Menckenism? Why the increasing division of Britain into shrill camps shouting unedifyingly at each other? One thing is certain: we've been here before. In 1860, one year after the publication of Darwin's On the Origin of Species, the Bishop of Oxford, Samuel Wilberforce, and TH Huxley, the naturalist described as "Darwin's bulldog", went toe-to-toe at Oxford's Natural History Museum. According to a contemporary report in McMillan's magazine, "The bishop turned to his antagonist with smiling insolence. He begged to know, was it through his grandfather or his grandmother that he claimed his descent from a monkey? Huxley rose to reply ... He [said he] was not ashamed to have a monkey for his ancestor; but he would be ashamed to be connected with a man who used great gifts to obscure the truth ... One lady fainted and had to be carried out."

"At that time the church was feeling very threatened and uncomfortable with non-religious society," says Hanne Stinson, executive director of the British Humanist Association. "There is a parallel with today - the church is feeling very threatened." Hence, perhaps, the nature of a dispute at Exeter University where the Christian Union was banned from using student union facilities after the Students' Guild charged that the CU was breaking equal opportunities policy by asking members to sign up to a list of beliefs that were discriminatory against non-Christians and gay people. The CU accused the guild of threatening its right to freedom of expression by imposing the ban: as in the gay adoption issue, anti-discrimination policy was running up against religious conviction. The Exeter ban has been repeated at other universities, prompting the Archbishop of Canterbury to argue that the bans threaten "the integrity of the whole educational process".

But today everyone is feeling threatened. Not just religious groups, but also pressure groups seeking to represent those without faith (who Stinson, citing last December's Ipsos Mori poll, suggests amount to 36% of Britons). Slee argues that low (below 7%) church attendance is a result of Christians being revolted by "the church presenting itself as narrow and non-inclusive".

In any event, the British Humanist Association campaigns against the existence of religious privileges in public life. Its symbolic struggle is BBC Radio 4's Thought for the Day slot, which the BHA argues unfairly excludes humanists and other non-faith people. But Radio 4 isn't the chief culprit: "We believe that the church having privileged access to government is not good," says Stinson. "The government has had this whole thing about giving a voice to religion, which was connected to the aim of building links with minority groups. But religions have become more and more dominating . It does connect to the whole multiculturalism debate because the government is funding faith schools in order to bind British minority ethnic groups to British society. But in so doing they are paying for people to be indoctrinated, to put it bluntly."

The role of religion in education raises a terrifying spectre for Grayling. "People who cherish tolerant argument are fighting back against the teaching of creationism in schools." Last November the Guardian revealed that 59 British schools were using teaching materials promoting a creationist alternative to Darwinian evolution, called intelligent design. At the same time Dawkins, nicknamed "Darwin's rottweiler", announced he was setting up a charity that will subsidise books, pamphlets and DVDs attacking the "educational scandal" of theories such as creationism while promoting rational and scientific thought.

Atheists such as Dawkins and Grayling fear that Britain may become more like the US, where creationism has more than a foothold. "In the US, two and half million people are educated at home because their parents don't want them exposed to Darwinian thinking," says Grayling. "Instead, they are often exposed to fundamentalist educational literature such as the A Beka books that maintain the world was created in 6,000 BC and that tyrannosaurus rex was a vegetarian. These developments worry intelligent people when the faith school issue comes up."

Indeed, only last week such intelligent people were worrying when the Tory leader, David Cameron, said he would be sending his daughter to a Church of England primary school instead of one of the many non-faith state schools in his area.

Children's author Philip Pullman argues that atheism should be taught in schools. "What I fear and deplore in the 'faith school' camp is their desire to close argument down and put some things beyond question or debate. It's vital to get clear in young minds what is a faith position and what is not, so that, for instance, they won't be taken in by religious people claiming that science is a faith position no different in kind from Christianity. Science is not a matter of faith, and too many people are being allowed to get away with claiming that it is."

Others argue that faith schools should be abolished and religion have no role in public life. Such is the Dawkins-Hitchens position. Why such hatred for religion and the proselytisation for its removal from the public sphere? One answer comes from Rabbi Julia Neuberger: "I think they're so angry about Muslims being so strident," she says. "And then they become angry about the Church of England wading into the issue of gays and adoption."

Neuberger is to take on Hitchens, Dawkins and Grayling when she speaks at a debate against the motion We'd Be Better Off Without Religion next month. The debate has been moved to a bigger venue. "What I find really distasteful is not just the tone of their rhetoric, but their lack of doubt," she says. "No scientific method says that there is no doubt. If you don't accept there's doubt in all things, you're being intellectually dishonest. "

This is a thought taken up by Azzim Tamimi, director of the Institute of Islamic Political Thought. "I refer to secular fundamentalism. The problem is that these people believe that they have the absolute truth. That means you have no room to talk to others so you end up having a physical fight. They want to close the door and ignore religion, but this will provoke a violent religiosity. If someone seeks to deny my existence, I will fight to assert it."

Tamimi's words also resonate with what the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, said last November: "The aggressive secularists pervert and abuse any notion of diversity for the sake of promoting a narrow agenda." They also parallel the chilling remarks of Richard Chartres, Bishop of London: "If you exile religious communities to the margins, then they will start to speak the words of fire among consenting adults, and the threat to public order and the public arena, I think, will grow and grow."

Another reason for secularist rage at people of faith, one might think, is exasperation on the part of militant atheists that religion has not died out as they hoped. "It has taken centuries and centuries to wrestle away from the churches the levers of power," says Grayling.

Tamimi contends that this was not quite what happened. Rather, he suggests that Christians were complicit in their marginalisation from power. "Christians did that to themselves - they allowed religion to move to the private sphere. That would be intolerable for Muslims." Why? "Partly because secularism doesn't mean the same for Muslims from the Middle East. The story of secularism in the Middle East is not one of democracy, as we are always told it was in the west. Instead, it is associated with tyranny - with Ataturk in Turkey, for instance. Islam is compatible with democracy, but not with this secular fundamentalism we are witnessing."

Grayling contends that during the late 20th century, Islam became more militant and assertive and this has changed British society radically. "In Britain we have seen Muslims burn Salman Rushdie's book. And to an extent other religions wanted to get a bit of the action - hence the protests against Jerry Springer: the Opera." When Stewart Lee, one of the writers of Jerry Springer, was interviewed amid protests against the allegedly blasphemous work being screened on TV, he suggested that Islamic culture had been more careful in protecting itself than Christian culture: "In the west, Christianity relinquished the right to be protective of its icons the day Virgin Mary snow globes were put up for sale at the Vatican. But in Islamic culture it is very different. To use a corporate image, Islam has always been a lot more conscientious about protecting its brand." Now other religions are becoming more publicly conscientious.

One example of this growing conscientiousness is a recent paper for the new public theology think-tank Theos, in which Nick Spencer concluded that in the 21st century, liberal humanism would face a challenge from an "old man" - God. "The feeble and slightly embarrassing old man who had been pacing about the house quietly mumbling to himself suddenly wanted to participate in family conversation and, what's more, to be taken seriously." Indeed, in Britain's ethically repellent consumerist society, even some atheists might consider it would be good to hear from the old man again, if only to provide a moral framework beyond shopping.

The refrain of Christians like Spencer is that unless religion is a part of public-policy debates, then society will be impoverished. Last November the Archbishop of Canterbury gave a lecture in which he distinguished between programmatic and procedural secularism. The former meant that in the public domain, everybody had to silence their fundamental convictions and debate in a value-free atmosphere of public neutrality. For Williams, this was a hopeless way of carrying on public discourse in a bewildering society that embraced not only many faiths but many anti-faith positions, and in which real disputes over very different values needed to take place. Better was procedural secularism, which promised that different groups could at least converse with each other in public discussions over sensitive questions of value and policy. This would involve, said Williams, "a crowded and argumentative public square that acknowledges the authority of a legal mediator or broker whose job it is to balance and manage real difference".

It is an idea similar to one set out by Yahya Birt, research fellow at The Islamic Foundation. "One form of secularism suggests that religion should be kept in the private sphere. That's Dawkins' position. Another form, expressed by philosophers suc has Isaiah Berlin and John Gray, is to do with establishing a modus vivendi. It accepts that you come to the public debate with baggage that will inform your arguments. In this, the government tries to find common ground and the best possible consensus, which can only work if we share enough to behave civilly. Of course, there will be real clashes over issues such as gay adoption, but it's not clear to me that that's a problem per se."

What should such a public square be like? It might not be Menckian, but it could be based on respectful understanding of others' most cherished beliefs, argues Spencer: "We should be more willing to treat other value systems as coherent, reasonable and even valuable rather than as primitive or grotesque mutations of liberal humanism to which every sane person adheres." It is, at least, a hope, albeit one, given our current climate, in which it would be foolish to place too much faith.

Troll Comments 1 - 5 of 5 | | View the Regular Comment Thread

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

1. Comment #23023 by stpetes on February 25, 2007 at 11:49 pm

And so the atheist response to this well written and thoughtful article (an article I do not agree with) which accuses atheism of fundamentalism, intolerance and dogmatism is to declare it wrong by being fundamentalist, intolerant and dogmatic! Nice one guys!

"It cannot be done through reason, as the core of the dogma is faith, and that is beyond reason."

Who says? (the trouble is that you are so dogmatic that you think you are the only ones who are reasonable).


"My believes are utterly open to attack as they are based on reason."

Yes - I think we got the point. Your beliefs are based on reason. Anyone who disagrees with your 'beleifs' is by definition unreasonable.

"There is no such thing as a fundamentalist atheist, because unlike Slee, an atheist can be persuaded to change their mind. All I need to become a believer is sufficient evidence."

Yep _ I notice a lot of atheists changing their mind (of course, silly me, I forgot that you alone have the truth and therefore there is no need to change your mind). On the other hand I also know many religious people who often change their minds.

"We do not tolerate bullshit: we fight it. Unlike civil disobedience (which we decry), we (Canadians) do so within in the law: but, we also do so in as nasty a way we can. If we can make the nutbars out as nutbars, we do so."

Those who disagree with you are defacto bullshit nutters whom you need to be nasty about.

"O.K. Hands up all those who have met an atheist suicide bomber?" - One of the more inane atheist myths/comments. Hands up who has ever met a religious suicide bomber. No-one here? Does not mean they do not exist. For your information the majority of suicide bombings in the last few years have been done by the secular Tamil Tigers. In the 20th Century Stalin encouraged his troops to committ suicide in the name of atheism. BUt hey, why let facts get in the way of your fundamentalist atheist belief?!

"I'd love to see a negative article on Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, or militant atheism in general that doesn't resort to lies, strawmen, and misrepresentations."

No you wouldn't. And in your eyes that would be impossible. Because if anyone disagrees with your faith then by definition they must be resorting to lies, strawmen and misrepresentation. There have been numerous articles which have ripped TGD to shreds. But the believers still keep the faith.

"It would make it easier for me to believe that people who "disagree with me" aren't profoundly dishonest."

Nope. You have a psycological need to believe and that is a powerful motivating force for you to consider everyone who disagrees with you as 'profoundly dishonest'.

"But there is apparently something left that we still need to challenge (nutbars always have their day). Apparently. And that would be? Something like, well, it just feels good to me? C'mon. I am a past-parent (my son is now 22) and we dealt with this when he was about 4. If you encounter any one older that is still so confused, I recommend false sympathy and sight-lines to a fast exit. You really have a life to live and better things to do."

Good one! Anyone who disagrees with you has the emotional and mental maturity of a four year old. Don't bother talking to them.

"You're unlikely to get that because generally what RD writes is true."

Once again a circular arguement.

"If TGD is an example of militant atheism, then it does not say "God does not exist" it says "God almost certainhly does not exist"."

Pathetic. And ignorant. When TGD says 'GOd almost certainly does not exist' it is a rhetorical device and a scientific necessity (because in absolute terms all science has to be theorhetically provisional). Dawkins places belief in God on a par with belief in the tooth fairy. He believes in neither. Don't play word games.

"Atheism by its nature is not truly militant imo in that atheists dont usually demand anything that a theist shouldnt also agree with - such as freedom of (And from) religion, separation of church and state, etc."

Let me see. Religion should be banned in public. Parents should not be allowed to teach their children religion (it is worse than sexual abuse according to TGD). Yep atheists are rational peaceful creatures who have no demands!

"I'm not sure its a good idea for folks to call themselves "militant aheists" as it suggests an extremism that few atheists have."

But the trouble is that under the guise of 'moderate' atheism the extremists flourish!

Other Comments by stpetes

2. Comment #23152 by BaronOchs on February 26, 2007 at 2:31 pm

 avatarI'm not sure what your point is here? If you want to challenge a specific point just post and people can respond in a civil manner.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

3. Comment #23228 by stpetes on February 27, 2007 at 2:54 am

Sadly I will not be able to respond to the substantive points in the various posts as once again I have been banned as a Troll. I will have to leave this by making the following points -

1) I have never sought to hide my name so those such as Billy who congratulate themselves as some kind of cyber detectives need to overcome their conspiracy theory paranoias. The only reason I used a different sign on was that I was banned.

2) I am astonished at being labelled a troll. My opinions are genuine and I have not posted a great deal. The fact that my opinions seem to rouse such vitriol is not a reason to ban myself but rather to have a look at those who post otherwise. Even in this thread I have been told I have a face that only a jackboot could love, stupid, a stench etc. You even have ridiculous comments about my motivation (Billy for example seems to know publishers who give 50% to their authors - please introduce me!)

When I came on to this website it was to respond to criticism of my article on The God Delusion. I was astonished at the response. The last thing I expected was to find this website behaving like that of an extremist fundamentalist religious group. But that is the way it is. Josh admirably puts up different articles (pro-and anti) but the responses are always the same - and indeed usually incredibly boring. Most threads invole atheists congratulating themselves on how wise and wonderful they are, whilst mocking everyone else as de facto stupid. At first I considered this behaviour to be the kind of stupid behaviour that ones gets on most Message boards and I thought it was unfair to blame Richard Dawkins for the excesses of his own disciples. But then I realised that this is his website and he does both read and control what goes on - so the responsibility does lie with him. It says a great deal about his so called rational intelligent approach that posts which are critical of his position are removed (or trolled) for being offensive whilst those which swear, insult, abuse and denigrate are left.

The worst aspect about this, and the saddest thing (though not for me) is that your reactions and actions have provided undeniable proof of the fact that you are acting as fundamentalists - which however you redefine it means simply an inability to question, think or even assume that you might be wrong. You all know there is no God and that anyone who thinks otherwise is either dishonest or stupid.

Let me also say this. You missed a great opportunity. Like most religious people I have often had doubts and questions. I accept completely that if the evidence was there I would have to change my position. If you had been able to present a reasonable defence of atheism then who knows, you may have caused me to doubt and change my mind. Instead you have provided more than ample justification for the Bible's teaching about human beings and more than ample proof that atheism is a faith position, based not upon empirical evidence, but upon numerous others factors including personal experience, feeling, prejudice, irrationality and hatred.

If anyone wishes to continue the discussion then please feel free to e-mail or read the rest of the articles at www.freechurch.org

I would like to say it's been fun. But I'm not supposed to lie. It has however been enlightening, disturbing and sad.

David Robertson david.robertson@freechurch.org

Other Comments by stpetes

4. Comment #23233 by BillySands on February 27, 2007 at 3:31 am

 avatarhey dave, no one said you were hiding your identity. Go to the page where I reference your change of name and it clearly gives your reasons.Sounds paranoid dave. I can see where you get your bizzarre ability to misinterpret the bible though.
It is actally something called memory and not detective work.
If you dont know why you are labelled a troll, then there is no hope for you. I feel it is sad that I have to tell someone older than me that insulting people does not endear you to them.
Remember this little unprovoked gem of yours?
Thanks Evolved and others for bringing my attention to this. And thanks for the e-mail address. I have just written to Channel 4 as you suggested and congratulated them on producing such a fair, thoughtful and balanced programme. I also warned them that the atheist fundamentalists who inhabit this particular area of cyberspace were being encouraged to write in and complain.

It's amusing to watch how you fundamentalist atheists react whenever your faith is attacked. You really should let me write your posts for you. It's the usual comments - Straw men - AD hominem - Hitler was not an atheist - and my personal favourite 'Communism is not atheistic' (a bit like arguing Christianity is not theistic). And I also love 'atheism is not a dogmatic belief system'. Yeah like this website just oozes non dogmatism, rationalism and tolerance.

You can find it here if you have forgotten http://richarddawkins.net/articleTrollComments,442,The-Trouble-with-Atheism,Rod-Liddle-Channel-4,page1
Strange that when I posted it on your website that you removed it several times and you threatened to ban me. That is fundie double standards in practice. Take the log out of your own eye and make yourself right with jesus (sad that i have to tell you how to live as a christian really. Maybe you prefer the old testament though, That allows you to rape hot virgins and marry them so that you can do it again and again and again (deut 22:28-29). I think that is disgusting, but that is the law of your god and you will defend it. For "fundies", atheists seem to have higher moral standards than you. No wonder the first 2 millenia were called the failed christian millenia

Boo hoo, we are labelled fundies by Dave. We just care about the truth and are passionate about it, and if being intolerant of idiotic comments from people who are not interested in debate - people who "know" they alone are right- makes me a fundie, then I am guilty. There is a big difference that you cant get through your thick skull though, and that is i think you should have the right to practice your superstition. However, your bile says that you should stine people who tell you to worship another god, and some of the comments on your site are down right hatefull of others of the same religion. Do you really think your "te quoque is actually a defense of any position? You are a RETARD I have had many discussions with christians that I can respect, but you are just a nasty narrow minded idiot that thankfully turns people away from your claims.

Tell me, why did you say homosexuality was wrong again - Fundie!

And I was actually talking £2.50 for all sales - including the ones from your wife to make you feel good

PS How's the family? they become atheists yet?
PPS when you do come back on site with another name, it would be helpful to put your own name in the text, so folk know not to waste their time on you

Other Comments by BillySands

5. Comment #23235 by BaronOchs on February 27, 2007 at 3:43 am

 avatarIn this case I will agree a peculiarly high level of bitterness has been present in some threads.

Other Comments by BaronOchs
Reload Comments | Back to Top

Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password: