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Monday, May 15, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Why I Won't Debate Creationists

by Richard Dawkins

For good or ill, the late Stephen Jay Gould had a huge influence on American scientific culture, and on balance the good came out on top. His powerful voice will echo on for a long time. Although he and I disagreed about much, we shared much too, including a spellbound delight in the wonders of the natural world, and a passionate conviction that such wonders deserve nothing less than a purely natural explanation.

Another thing about which we agreed was our refusal to engage in public debates with creationists. Steve had even more reason than me to be irritated by them. They distorted the theory of punctuated equilibrium so that it appeared to support their preposterous (but astonishingly common) belief that there are no intermediates in the fossil record. Gould's reply deserves to be widely known:

"Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists ? whether through design or stupidity, I do not know ? as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups. "


Some time in the 1980s when I was on a visit to the United States, a television station wanted to stage a debate between me and a prominent creationist called, I think, Duane P Gish. I telephoned Stephen Gould for advice. He was friendly and decisive: "Don't do it." The point is not, he said, whether or not you would 'win' the debate. Winning is not what the creationists realistically aspire to. For them, it is sufficient that the debate happens at all. They need the publicity. We don't. To the gullible public which is their natural constituency, it is enough that their man is seen sharing a platform with a real scientist. "There must be something in creationism, or Dr So-and-So would not have agreed to debate it on equal terms." Inevitably, when you turn down the invitation you will be accused of cowardice, or of inability to defend your own beliefs. But that is better than supplying the creationists with what they crave: the oxygen of respectability in the world of real science.

I have followed his advice ever since, and I was reminded of it again in 2001 when I was invited by a third party to take part in a debate with, among several other evolutionists and creationists, the lawyer Phillip Johnson, high priest of the 'Intelligent Design' sect of creationists. I refused, as usual. Johnson then refused too, and his letter (which he copied to me) brought back with a vengeance Steve Gould's words about creationists' real motives. Here is what Johnson said:

"It isn't worth my while to debate every ambitious Darwinist who wants to try his hand at ridiculing the opposition, so my general policy is that Darwinists have to put a significant figure at risk before I will agree to a debate. That means specifically Dawkins or Gould, or someone of like stature and public visibility."


This moved me to write to Gould, reminding him of his advice to me all those years ago. I proposed a joint letter, perhaps to the New York Review of Books, explaining why we don't do debates with creationists, and encouraging other scientists to refuse for the same reason. He enthusiastically agreed, and suggested that I draft a letter and send it to him as a starting point. I did so, but our correspondence was sadly cut short by his last illness. My draft, deprived, alas, of the improvements that he would undoubtedly have wrought, will be published in my forthcoming book of collected essays.

Johnson's motives are similarly betrayed in two further documents. In his 'Wedge of Truth' web site, he reports a debate between his creationist colleague Jonathan Wells (incidentally a long-standing Moonie ) and the Harvard biologist Stephen Palumbi.

http://www.arn.org/docs/pjweekly/pj_weekly_011202.htm

Johnson's triumphalist tone is captured in his headline, "Wells Hits a Home Run at Harvard." But the 'Home Run' turns out to be not a resounding success by Wells in convincing the audience, nor any kind of besting of Professor Palumbi (who told me he agreed to take part, with great reluctance, only because somebody at Harvard had already invited Wells and it was too late to do anything about it ). There is no suggestion that Wells won the debate, nor even any obvious interest in whether he did. No, Wells scored his home run the moment the invitation from Harvard dropped into his mailbox.

The second revealing document is a recently published interview given by Johnson to a religious magazine.

"In October I had a wonderful debate with Nobel laureate physicist Steven Weinberg at the University of Texas. Weinberg, one of the most famous scientists in the world, debates me before an academic audience whenever I come to Austin."


(Look at me, I'm having a debate with one of the big boys. Doesn't that just prove that creationism is being taken seriously in the universities?) Again, it is sufficient that a scientist of Weinberg's stature agrees to take part in a debate with Johnson. The existence of the debate itself is the propaganda victory, not the arguments deployed nor the outcome of the debate.

My own most bizarre invitation, and the most transparently publicity-hungry, is dated August 2002.

"Dear Dr. Dawkins:

. . . Do you really believe in evolutionism? If so, on behalf of Dr. Joseph Mastropaolo I present you with the following challenge. This is the announcement of the Life Science Prize. The rules are like those for a prize sporting event: the winner takes all. The evolutionist contestant puts $10,000 in escrow. This will be matched by a creation scientist for a total of $20,000. If the evolutionist proves evolution is science and creation is religion he wins the $20,000. If the creation scientist proves that creation is science and evolution is religion, then he collects the $20,000. The standards of evidence will be those of science: objectivity, validity, reliability and calibration. The preponderance of the evidence prevails.

Please contact me as soon as possible and we shall begin working out the details for the debate.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Karl Priest


Who, I wondered, was 'Dr Joseph Mastropaolo'? Evidently a personage so grand that somebody else writes his letters for him. Or was Priest/Mastropaolo a Jekyll and Hyde figure, named Mastropaolo but with a fantasy of becoming a priest? For reasons I have already explained, I had not the slightest intention of accepting his (their?) ridiculous challenge, but I thought I might have some fun before ending the correspondence. With hindsight, that might have been a time-wasting mistake.

Although I wondered in passing about 'calibration', I noted that the standards of evidence would be those of science. I therefore made the innocent suggestion that the judging panel should consist of distinguished scientists, to be nominated by the National Academy of Sciences, the Royal Society, and Nobel Prizewinners. Needless to say, I would never have dreamed of troubling these august bodies with such a silly request. If Priest/Mastropaolo had possessed even a grain of intelligence, he could easily have called my bluff. But of course he did not. Instead (this time beginning his letter as plain Mastropaolo but still signing off as Priest) he accused me of trying to rig the judging process, and ended with ringing defiance:

"If your objective is to stack the jury with evolutionists that will vote you the winner no matter what evidence is presented, then count yourself in default on this challenge. Which is it?"


Priest/Mastropaolo won't let it drop, and he goes on challenging me, with increasing belligerence, to accept or 'default'. At one point I told him I might publish the correspondence for amusement, and received the following truculent permission to do so:

"Be sure you publish the following (and you may sign my name): You, Dr. Dawkins are an intellectual coward. You are scared to defend your faith in evolutionism on a level playing field. You have defaulted out of fear."


I promised that I would indeed publish his words (I just have). I reminded him that it was he who refused to submit a scientific question to the judgment of the world's leading scientists, and I added a further constructive suggestion:

". . . science keeps its playing field level by the rather admirable system of anonymous peer-review. If you have evidence that evolution is false, you are entirely at liberty to submit a paper to the Editor of Nature, or Science, or the Journal of Theoretical Biology, or the American Naturalist, or Biological Reviews, or the Quarterly Review of Biology, or any of hundreds of other reputable journals in which ordinary working scientists publish their research. Do not fear that Editors will reject it simply because it opposes evolution. On the contrary, the journal that published a paper which really did discover a fallacy in evolution, or convincing evidence against it, would have the scoop of the century, in scientific terms. Editors would kill to get their hands on it."


This challenge by me has ? of course ? gone unanswered. On my side the correspondence is terminated, although Priest/Mastropaolo went on bombarding me weekly with increasingly raucous accusations of cowardice. He reminds me of the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail who continued, as a stump-waving, blood-spouting torso, to shout "Running away, eh? . . . Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off" at the indifferent back of the opponent who had successively deprived him of all four limbs.

I hope that my recollection of Stephen Gould's wise words will encourage others to refuse all debating invitations from pseudoscientists avid for publicity. Quite a good plan, which I follow myself from time to time, is to recommend that the case for evolution could easily be entrusted to a local undergraduate majoring in biology. Alternatively, I plead a prior engagement: an important forthcoming debate against the Flat Earth Society.

Comments 1 - 48 of 48 |

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1. Comment #4603 by Anonymous on November 4, 2006 at 6:03 pm

Our unpublished 9as far as i know reply):

Editor:

In response to the Dr. Richard Dawkins article defending his debate dodging we have the following comments.

We know why evolutionists are ordered not to debate and why they must not contend for the Life Science Prize. They are eminently unqualified as scientists and would waste their $10,000 entry fee.

Our search of the literature reveals that Dr. Dawkins has never published a peer reviewed article in support of evolution. His late chum, Stephen Gould, did not either. They are peas in a pod, both quack essayists of a 2,500 year old pagan religion that masquerades as science. Neither one of them has ever presented a scintilla of scientific evidence. If you find anywhere on the planet one peer reviewed article in support of evolution published in a science journal with objective, valid, reliable, calibrated data by Richard Dawkins, or any evolutionist, send it to us for a reward. Such evidence is as invisible as the emperor's clothes.

Propagandists like Richard Dawkins are out of touch with reality and hallucinate that
evolution is true. Such hallucinations so withdrawn from reality are the medical dictionary definition of psychosis. Our advice to him to default on the Life Science Prize did not go far enough. For the sake of his endowed chair, he also should seek, at the earliest, psychiatric help. We hope he gets well soon.

Evolutionists have no scientific evidence. None. And that is the reason they do not want to debate. Without evidence, they can't win unless they fix the jury. Given an honest judge or jury, they would make of themselves a laughingstock. They have everything to lose because they could not score a single honest point. Their only rational choice is default.

The game is over. Dr. Dawkins has been found out. The jig is up. Evolution is a zillion
times more impossible than the Blue Fairy, the Witch of the North, Aladdin's genies, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, the Headless Horseman, and the mathematical definition of impossible all put together.

The creationists are asking secular scientists like us to challenge the charlatans. We would rather debate bona fide scientists in scientific meetings. Debating pseudoscientists, like alchemists and evolutionists, is distasteful and unseemly because scientifically they are ciphers.

Every evolutionist, Dr. Dawkins included, brags that evolution is a scientific fact. But as soon as a bona fide scientist says here is $10,000 that says evolution is pure fantasy, then we see the first evidence of evolution. The braggart immediately evolves into a yellow-bellied reptile that slithers away.

Evolutionists of the world, come out of your holes. Evolve into human beings. Defend
your fantasies or be forever branded witless Darwinist propagandists like the authors of the greatest holocausts in human history: Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Signed:
Karl Priest, M.A.
Joseph Mastropaolo, Ph.D.

2. Comment #23707 by RichardPrins on March 2, 2007 at 6:35 am

 avatarMaybe creationists like in the first comment would be so good to show any evidence for their theological theories published in any peer-reviewed journal. I doubt they're capable of doing that since they are already not able to find any scientific work by Gould or Dawkins, but instead have to resort to their usual lies and/or distortions.

Their post also makes clear it makes very little sense to debate them, seeing how they have to resort to labelling people with psychological conditions and other various sorts of name-calling. Perhaps they, like some of their creationist colleagues, bought their titles on the internet or from some bogus religious university to give the appearance of respectability?

Get over yourselves, do some real research and try to get published in a scientific journal, instead of slandering real scientists and science in general in favour of your god-driven hypotheses.

Other Comments by RichardPrins

3. Comment #86069 by Easy Lover on November 8, 2007 at 3:56 am

 avatarThis would be the Jospeh Mastropaolo of the "rocket scientist" fame then? The guy that allowed himself to be described as such becuase he was involved in designing the seats on the space shuttle.

Instead of Ad Hom attacks and the arguement from personal incredulity why don't you post some evidence for your claims? Is it because you don't have any?

[quote]They are peas in a pod, both quack essayists of a 2,500 year old pagan religion that masquerades as science.[/quote]

I thought the "evilutionists" had only been around since the time of Darwin.

Other Comments by Easy Lover

4. Comment #112782 by Thebabelfish on January 18, 2008 at 4:44 am

I can understand the reason for not holding a public debate as these can be rigged against you as well as being used as a tool to get the crazies fame.

However there are many of us at Newsvine.com that write articles concerning your work and up hold your opinions, we are course the logical free thinkers that have not fell fowl to religious indoctrination.

Newsvine is a news community and I am one of it citizens journalist.

Babel Fish
http://silkmesh.newsvine.com

Other Comments by Thebabelfish

5. Comment #199882 by RationalMan16 on June 26, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Karl Priest?

The same Karl Priest who preyed on innocent middle school children by severely distorting the theory of evolution with MATHEMATICS?

http://creationwiki.org/Karl_Priest

This man is a hypocrite. He actually had the gall to call a tenured professor a coward, when in reality the only way he can satisfy his distorted and deluded worldview is by blatantly misrepresenting evolution with a field that doesn't even relate to evolutionary biology, and then by pushing it on children in a MATH class.

What a slimy, subhuman, lowlife schmuck.

Other Comments by RationalMan16

6. Comment #204379 by obscured by clouds on July 4, 2008 at 9:53 pm

 avatarI think this is a great article that most might not have read, since it was posted so long ago.

Other Comments by obscured by clouds

7. Comment #204763 by Szymanowski on July 5, 2008 at 5:52 pm

 avatarYep, that's a great article, and the first comment is suitably amusing!

Other Comments by Szymanowski

8. Comment #259004 by Beyond on October 2, 2008 at 5:52 pm

Creationists are not narrow-minded fundamentalists, backwoods, or rabid religious fanatics.-just world class scientists like Nobel nominee Henry F. Schaefer, the third most cited chemist in the world. James Tour of Rice University's Center for Nanoscale Science and Technology; Fred Figworth, professor of cellular and molecular physiology at Yale. Among us is the director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry, scientists from the Plasma Physics Lab at Princeton, the National Museum of National History at the Smithsonian Institute, the Los Alamos National Lab and the Lawrence Livermore Lab. We include professors from Yale, M.I.T., Tulane, USC, Stanford, Cornell, Princeton and Duke.
After the PBS seven part tele series "evolution" we have spoken out. We as a group have published a two page ad under the banner " A scienctific Dissent From Darwinism". Our statement: We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.
We have published a detailed,151 page critique showing the failure tp present accurately and fairly the scientific problems with the evidence for Darwinian evolution and even systematically ignoring disagreements among evolutionary biologists themselves. Signed and delivered by the top scientists in their field.
There is a reason there is no debate. It not because of media attention, but because the facts can not hold true under todays evaluations.

Other Comments by Beyond

9. Comment #342430 by ConcernedEducator on February 18, 2009 at 12:20 am

 avatarI'm glad I found this site!
I have been corresponding with the great Karl Priest (or is it Joseph Mastropaolo - considering the contents of many of his/their posts, Multiple Personality Disorder cannot be ruled out) and am now dealing with tracking down the evasive coward.

Karl recently decided to invade the NPR(National Public Radio) forums with his religious propaganda. I have since refuted 4 of the claims he made, and asked for a reply each time - of course, none was forthcoming.

I then took the added step of emailing Karl directly twice, as follows:
"Hey Karl - you fled the NPR forums without responding to any questions, so I thought I'd track you down.
I've read your article, and all the related sites, including the Exodus Mandate(it was really funny!).
No hint of any empirical evidence to back any of your claims...where is it at? I would love to see it.
Thanks!"
And the second one:
"Aren't you the same Karl Priest who stalks prominent scientists like Richard Dawkins, and calls them cowards for not debating you directly?
All of my correspondence with you (one way so far) is being archived - your hypocrisy and dishonesty will be available for all to see.
Time will tell who the REAL coward is. ;)"

And still, as of this very moment, not one reply from the prominent "Dr" Priest...I wish I could say I was surprised.

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

10. Comment #342609 by ConcernedEducator on February 18, 2009 at 8:09 am

 avatarUPDATE - latest email (all still unanswered) to Karl Priest:
Hello again Karl,

Creationists should be careful of the comments they make - they can come back to haunt them:

"You, Karl Priest, are an intellectual coward. You are scared to defend your psuedoscience on a level playing field. You have defaulted out of fear." (notice I did not correct the grammatical errors from his original comment)

It's so refreshing when hypocrites are revealed to the world for all to see, and using their own words no less!

Toodles!

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

11. Comment #342622 by severalspeciesof on February 18, 2009 at 8:31 am

 avatarWelcome ConcernedEducator...

Stay with this site and you'll meet all kinds of wack-a-loons...

Myself included... ;-)

Other Comments by severalspeciesof

12. Comment #342629 by CaptainMandate on February 18, 2009 at 8:41 am

 avatarConcernedEducator

looking forward to seeing if you get any responses. having only joined a few months ago i hadn't caught up with this thread but it does serve as a good reminder for me to try not to feed trolls as well!

I shall now scout through and see if I can find similar threads ("why I don't pick knife fights with toddlers", "Why I don't drag race against tortoises" and "Why I still can't get channel 5 on my tumble dryer")

best of luck!

Other Comments by CaptainMandate

13. Comment #342659 by heathen2 on February 18, 2009 at 9:28 am

 avatarYesterday, I came across the middle of a debate between Dan Barker and some religious (one Christian and one Muslim) scientists (?). I think it was entitled "Does God not not exist?" or something to that effect.The audience was stacked with head scarfed ladies who clapped at every attack by the Muslim man, who was very aggressive and continually hurled derision toward a polite and reasonable Dan Barker. I had to stop watching, it just made me angry. In addition to the dismissive comments (by the Muslim man) there was a real tone of threat toward Dan and his team mate. I don't think there is any point debating these people either, they won't hear reason.

Other Comments by heathen2

14. Comment #342668 by severalspeciesof on February 18, 2009 at 9:56 am

 avatarheathen2,

Where did you see the debate? I'd like to give it a look...

Thanks...

[Edit: I think I found it]

Other Comments by severalspeciesof

16. Comment #342748 by ConcernedEducator on February 18, 2009 at 11:31 am

 avatarUPDATE:
Here is the website currently hosting Karl Priest's creationist propaganda:
http://ednews.org/articles/33215/1/DARWIN-IS-DEAD-Leave-Him-in-the-Grave/Page1.html

Since the website is billed as an Education site, I alerted the moderator that a Creationist was using the site to promote a religious agenda.

His reply?
"Considering the massive one-sided views in many publications a true variety should be welcome but as always some simple minded people have to finger point and grip." - Jimmy Kilpatrick

One sided views? Simple minded people?
Unsupported claims and baseless insults...the hallmark of the Creationist.

I've since sent correspondence requesting that ednews.org change the deceptive "educational" name of their site.

Notice the last comment(and the Editor's Note that was added, complete with insults) - and feel free to leave your own!

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

17. Comment #342862 by heathen2 on February 18, 2009 at 2:43 pm

 avatarseveralspeciesof,

Sorry I was gone for awhile. Yes, this is the debate. I started in the middle, part 3/4 when they are at the debate tables. I couldn't go back to it, it was too difficult. What did you think of it?

Other Comments by heathen2

18. Comment #342972 by ConcernedEducator on February 18, 2009 at 5:26 pm

 avatarUPDATE: Karl finally replies!

Hey ConcernedEducator:
At least I am man enough to sign my name.
If you have any science--go for the $10K LSP. A lot of cowards are listed at the Life Science Prize website. Maybe all of you can evolve some courage--or honesty.
Otherwise, do not contact me again.
Karl Prieset
----------------------------------------
Wow! It would appear Karl has changed his last name...interesting.

Anyway, my reply:
Dear Karl,

THANK YOU!!!! For bringing up the Life Science prize!

Here's the deal - I'm going to go ahead and agree with everything you have to say against evolutionary theory...all of it, consider it thrown out.

Now it's PUT UP OR SHUT UP time - present your empirical evidence for the alternate theory you've been claiming as fact.

Anything less will be considered yet another evasion attempt by a spineless charlatan.

Thank you.

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

19. Comment #343008 by ConcernedEducator on February 18, 2009 at 6:02 pm

 avatarUPDATE - I finally took the time (30 minutes of my life I will never get back) to check out the Life Science Prize, and in light of new "revelations" have sent another email to Karl:

Karl - don't disregard my last email - but I'd like to go ahead and accept the LSP (and the prize money)

According to the terms of this challenge, the evolutionist and creationist each put $10,000 in escrow; they present their evidence in a courthouse to a mutually agreeable trial court judge; the judge decides which side has the science and which is religion; the side declared science wins, the side declared religion loses.
-----------------------
This challenge has already been met, Karl old chap!
And I already have $10,000 in escrow. ;)
(oh and you don't get to PICK YOUR OWN JUDGE in a trial, how silly!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District
Conclusion of the trial:
The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board's ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents. [...]
The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy. With that said, we do not question that many of the leading advocates of ID have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors. Nor do we controvert that ID should continue to be studied, debated, and discussed. As stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom.
---------------------
Now, are you going to arrange for the payment of my $10,000 - or can we add "lying" to the already infamous title "creationist"?

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

20. Comment #343046 by ConcernedEducator on February 18, 2009 at 7:46 pm

 avatarFINAL UPDATE:
As predicted, no admissal of responsibility...and not one shred of evidence in Mr. Priest(or is it Prieset?)'s final reply to me:
"Dear Coward:
Goodbye.
Karl Priest"

No evidence, no rebuttal to my successful completion of the LSP "challenge" - and he's blocked any further correspondence.

THIS is the guy calling Dawkins and others cowards? What's next, the leader of the KKK calling human rights advocates racists?

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

21. Comment #343053 by Daedalus5 on February 18, 2009 at 8:08 pm

 avatarWhy does a kineseologist think he knows more about biology than the man who revolutionized our understanding of the gene? or for that matter the entire National Academy of Science.

Im confused, but dosent he study joints? not even the brain, an obviously trial and error endeavor, but ligaments and tendons.

If thats the best creationists can do, even their god is not impressed.

Other Comments by Daedalus5

22. Comment #343071 by Daedalus5 on February 18, 2009 at 8:32 pm

 avatarheres another point.

From the list of "debate dogers":

89. Dr. George V. Coyne, S.J. Director of the Vatican Observatory
96. Monsignor Gianfranco Basti, Director, Vatican Project on Science, Theology and Ontological Quest (STOQ).

right, challenge the Vatican on knowledge of the Scriptures vs. evolution.

Also:

99.Brahama D. Sharma, Ph.D.,C.Chem.,FRSC(life). Life fellow (chemistry) of the Royal Society. He corresponded on behalf of the Royal Society and confirmed that none of them had any scientific evidence in support of evolution in spite of the fact that the Royal Society stated publicly on 11 April 2006 that evolution is “recognized as the best explanation for the development of life on Earth from its beginnings and for the diversity of species" and that it is "rightly taught as an essential part of biology and science courses in schools, colleges and universities across the world." Evidently, the Royal Society is an ethically incompetent mouthpiece for worldwide evolutionist propaganda.

and:

12. Dr. Eugenie Scott. Executive Director of the National Center for Science Education, misnamed National Center for Anti-Science Evolution Indoctrination

14. Dr. Richard Dawkins. Oxford University, Professor of Public Understanding of Science. Possibly the world's foremost propagandist for evolution possesses not one iota of scientific evidence.


Wow. Slander and outright lies in a list read predominately by "ignant people" made by god in 6 days.
"looks like he rushed it!"-Bill Hicks

Other Comments by Daedalus5

23. Comment #343077 by Daedalus5 on February 18, 2009 at 8:39 pm

 avataroh shit...

they challenged the POPE!

143. Professor Joseph Alois Ratzinger, made the public statement that, “This clash (with evolution) is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.” He was unable to send one iota of scientific proof of evolution and of course would not contend for the unlimited Life Science Prizes.

And at the end of it all claim they beat evolution in 4.6 years. Does anyone remember reading that evolution was disproven? "Just because you claim it dosent make it so."

Other Comments by Daedalus5

24. Comment #343397 by ConcernedEducator on February 19, 2009 at 10:15 am

 avatarFor anyone following, here was my last reply before I realized Karl had permanently fled the debate:
------------------------------
Um, Karl? Calling someone a coward is fine and all, but doing it while you run away?

It looks like Dr. Dawkins' analogy of the Black Knight from Monty Python was spot on!

If your intent was anything BUT humor, you've failed (again).
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
Karl Priest
(reason: 550 theinsectman IS NOT ACCEPTING MAIL FROM THIS SENDER)

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

25. Comment #343415 by Tezcatlipoca on February 19, 2009 at 10:49 am

 avatarHere's a post from Phyrangula where the Discovery Institute, and the rest of these IDiots in my opinion, get pwnd by Prof.Gotelli from the Univ. of Vermont

How to respond to requests to debate creationists

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/how_to_respond_to_requests_to.php

It was Gotelli's response was written in reply to a request by a Dr Klinghoffer, from The Discovery Institute, for a debate. It could as just as well by written by Karl Priest or any of the rest.

Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca

26. Comment #343433 by ConcernedEducator on February 19, 2009 at 11:21 am

 avatarTo answer any possible future questions about my choice of avatar:
Karl Priest, the creationist, lists his public email address as THEINSECTMAN@aol.com

I raise ducks, and know one simple fact about them; they eat insects for breakfast. :)

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

27. Comment #343500 by ConcernedEducator on February 19, 2009 at 1:18 pm

 avatarAs a finalè, I'd like to propose why, at some point, these creationists WILL need to be put in their place, debate forum or otherwise.

To ignore them and ridicule them, as much as they deserve it, only leads to things like this:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/washington_state_kook_wants_a.php

They must be confronted and stopped...as crazy as it sounds, all that measure needs to pass is 241,153 registered voters to sign it...and I don't want to gamble on whether or not there are that many creationists in Washington State!

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

28. Comment #343537 by ConcernedEducator on February 19, 2009 at 2:03 pm

 avatarAnother reason not to ignore the Creationists...their scathing attacks in the aftermath.

Not that anyone in a professional field would give them credence, but here's a reply from a everyday US citizen after finding out Professor Gotelli refused the latest debate challenge from the Discovery Institute:
"Gotelli, I am sure your students are proud that you chickened out to debate the evil creationists.

By the way, I don't recall historians refusing to debate holocaust deniers......

Must be something particular to darwinism!"

And there is the problem. As a wise man once said "For evil to flourish, all good men need do is nothing"

These people aren't going away, and ignoring them only emboldens their cause.

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

29. Comment #343548 by heathen2 on February 19, 2009 at 2:19 pm

 avatarI understand the need on the part of scientists to do something about the creationists. I don't think debates with atheists work for the reasons that Dawkins explained in the article and also because there is no getting through to them (as evidenced by the Dan Barker debate referenced above by severalspeciesof). Probably most effective may be when religious scientists (such as Kenneth Miller) debate the creationists. I do feel the urgency though, since our educational system is affected.

Other Comments by heathen2

30. Comment #343559 by ConcernedEducator on February 19, 2009 at 2:50 pm

 avatar"I don't think debates with atheists work"
--------------------
Did you read my posts with the transcript between me and Karl Priest? I exposed his fraud and sent him scurrying...yeah, he was still flinging insults, but he fled nonetheless.

THIS is what we need to start doing. Every time an evolutionary biologist, professor, etc. refuses to debate these clowns, they gain public support ("hey, would you look at that? Dawkins backed down from a creationism debate...again! What's he so afraid of? Why is he hiding?").

Just confront them, exact admission of no evidence/valid platform from them, and "kick their ass to the curb" so to speak.

Plus, it gives you a warm, tingly feeling inside!

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31. Comment #344233 by ConcernedEducator on February 20, 2009 at 6:33 pm

 avatarBREAKING NEWS: NPR (National Public Radio) has just given a legitimate platform to a member of the Discovery Institute, Michael Egnor. No, I am NOT kidding!!!!!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100867217

Still think ignoring the creationists is the correct course of action?

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

32. Comment #344235 by Eshto on February 20, 2009 at 6:44 pm

 avatar
Without this designer, the brain would be just a meat computer made up of brain cells, he says.


Isn't it?

the mind in some circumstances can exist without a functioning brain.


Or is it the other way around?

Other Comments by Eshto

33. Comment #344243 by ConcernedEducator on February 20, 2009 at 7:15 pm

 avatarIf I could combat these creationist clowns and scratch out a living wage doing so, I'd commit myself full-time to fighting this blight on our society.

Know anyone hiring? ;)

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

34. Comment #344247 by steveroot on February 20, 2009 at 7:35 pm

 avatar31. Comment
#344233 by ConcernedEducator on February 20, 2009 at 6:33 pm

BREAKING NEWS: NPR (National Public Radio) has just given a legitimate platform to a member of the Discovery Institute, Michael Egnor. No, I am NOT kidding!!!!!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100867217

From the transcript:
Egnor counters, "Whether it's the DNA code or the mind that understands the DNA code, both require an explanation that transcends what we know of matter."
Operative words: "what we KNOW".

I heard this on the radio while riding the train home. It didn't sound to me like such a plug for Egnor's point of view; they had Steven Novella balancing him out pretty much. Egnor brought up the "near-death" experiences in support of his belief in a "not entirely material" mind. I think the neurologist pwns the neurosurgeon here. If the way the brain works to produce "mind" is understood, it might be less necessary to cut it.
Ste5e

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35. Comment #344249 by ConcernedEducator on February 20, 2009 at 7:44 pm

 avatarSteveroot, you misunderstand.

As Dr. Richard Dawkins and Professor Gotelli have said, it's not who wins the debate, the very fact that a creationist was given implicated legitimacy by being included on this forum is a victory for the creationists. So the creationist got "pwnd" - how much do you want to wager that they'll use the publicity from this to become even more brazen in their attacks.

I submit that my previous suggestion for handling these clowns is the best answer.

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36. Comment #344251 by steveroot on February 20, 2009 at 8:04 pm

 avatar
26. Comment #343433 by ConcernedEducator on February 19, 2009 at 11:21 am

Karl Priest, the creationist, lists his public email address as THEINSECTMAN@aol.com

But christianity is the In Sect, Man! ;-)

So the creationist got "pwnd" - how much do you want to wager that they'll use the publicity from this to become even more brazen in their attacks.

OTOH, as Christopher Hitchens said, sometimes things just need to be "underlined". I think it's good to get this stuff on NPR; the creationist (he denied being such, just that he believes we have souls that are created by god. Ha.) isn't likely to be taken as seriously in that market as on, say, the right-wing talk shows. But as you seem to have energy and motivation to be more pro-active, I'd say "go for it"! :-)
Ste5e

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37. Comment #344257 by ConcernedEducator on February 20, 2009 at 8:51 pm

 avatarThanks for the endorsement Steve.

Now all I need is to find a freethinking philanthropist willing to fund my "Crusade"(pun intended).

I hereby issue this Claim:
Fund my "Crusade" and give me 2-3 months maximum, and I will scour the online community of this plague.

RAWR!

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

38. Comment #344260 by Bonzai on February 20, 2009 at 9:18 pm

 avatarKeep in mind that 'winning' a live public debate is not just about who has the best arguments and the most factual evidence. It is also about theatrics, rhetorics, the ability to think on your feet and being able to package your arguments into neat soundbites. Public debates are more about putting on a good performance than carrying on an informed discussion.

These factors work against us. The format of public debates makes it difficult to present nuanced arguments. While the other side can easily get away by throwing out a lot of half truths and plain falsehoods to make an impresion and create confusions, it may be difficult to disset and refute them throughly within the constraints of the debate.

Remember too they have nothing to lose. All they need is to sow some doubts and confusions and score a few cheap rhetorical points to 'win'. A moment of hesitation, a fleeting sign of confusion, a non sequitur unanswered, a half dangled argument.. any small slip up on our side would make the creationist looks good enough to brag about 'victory'.

So, in addition to what Richard said, I would say that don't do live debate with the creationists unless you are a good orator and have the confidence to nail them dead with one blow.

EDIT: Of course I am talking about evolutionists with a public profile here, not someone like me. The creationists wouldn't really care to debate me.

Other Comments by Bonzai

39. Comment #344264 by ConcernedEducator on February 20, 2009 at 9:42 pm

 avatarComment #344260 by Bonzai
So, in addition to what Richard said, I would say that don't do live debate with the creationists unless you are a good orator and have the confidence to nail them dead with one blow.
------------
How about 2 blows? Go up and start with Comment # 9

I just did the same thing to Egnor on the NPR forums. ;)

Two down, a couple thousand to go!

My oration skills may not be up to the standards of my hero, Sir Ian McKellen...but I can emulate Avery Franklin Brooks so well it sometimes fools my colleagues!



REMINDER - Here is the website currently hosting Karl Priest's creationist propaganda:
http://ednews.org/articles/33215/1/DARWIN-IS-DEAD-Leave-Him-in-the-Grave/Page1.html

Note Comment #32 - and let the moderators of a site billed as an EDUCATION WEBSITE know that hosting creationist propaganda is destroying their credibility - assuming they had any to begin with.

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

40. Comment #344265 by Bonzai on February 20, 2009 at 9:45 pm

 avatarCE

A forum is not live debate. Moreover, with due respect, you probably are not famous enough so Karl Priest may not want to waste time with you anyway. :-) Remember they do this for the publicity.

EDIT: I think biologists can definitely debate creationists in print or on forums, but I doubt that the high profile creationists would be interested in such debates.

Other Comments by Bonzai

41. Comment #344270 by ConcernedEducator on February 20, 2009 at 10:16 pm

 avatarA forum is not live debate.
-----------
Neither are our exchanges here...and considering a live debate doesn't have the exposure potential that an online forum does...nor does it automatically save a written record of the debate for all to see, I actually prefer forums.

All the moreso now that I know creationist hacks do NOT like them, probably for the same reasons.


"Moreover, with due respect, you probably are not famous so Karl Priest may not want to waste time with you anyway."
-----------------
(disregarding that Karl already "wasted" time with me, and isn't famous either)
TOO BAD! For far too long have the creationists set the precedents; "we'll only debate someone who couldn't possibly be expected to waste their time"...I'm not famous, this is true. If that is the only excuse Karl can conjure for fleeing from me with his tail between his legs...well, it speaks volumes.


"I doubt that the high profile creationists would be interested in such debates. "
-------------------
PERFECT! I'll direct my challenges to the highest profile creationists(except Kent Hovind, he and his wife are in prison for tax evasion.) Let them back down then, publicly, like Karl did...online for all to see. Isn't this EXACTLY what they were doing to Dawkins and others?

In other words, keep up the pressure until they "righteously" decide to ignore you(like Karl did to me - see Comment# 24)...thereby destroying any credibility gained by bashing prominent scientists who do the same to them.


As Dawkins himself said (jokingly, I know!)
"Quite a good plan, which I follow myself from time to time, is to recommend that the case for evolution could easily be entrusted to a local undergraduate majoring in biology."

I'm local (in a planetary sense), and while I did not major in biology (Computer Science), and probably do not grasp all of the nuances of allele frequencies at a genetic locus in a population, I am more than capable of handling myself in the field of evolutionary biology at a post-graduate level.

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

42. Comment #344312 by ConcernedEducator on February 21, 2009 at 1:28 am

 avatarHey ConcernedEducator:
At least I am man enough to sign my name.

Karl Prieset
--------------------------------------
To anyone who didn't catch it, the creationist's name is NOT Karl Prieset, it's Karl Priest!

Unless he actually changed his last name from Priest to Prieset?

If not...an admission of being "not man enough" to debate me directly is all he's provided.

Thanks Karl!

EDIT: Picking on a typo seem "low"? Have you SEEN the extremes the creationists will go to?

Of course we have...some of it has even infected THIS forum.

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

43. Comment #344617 by ConcernedEducator on February 21, 2009 at 12:38 pm

 avatarSomber update: NPR has just released(and by just released I mean uploaded within the last few hours) a brand new headline article on their main page titled "Christian Filmmakers Creating An Industry Of Faith" - and yes, once again the title is deceptive
...guess who their "former teen idol" guest speaker is? Oooohhh yeah, I AM NOT KIDDING....KIRK CAMERON!!!
Any news media network with a shred of journalistic integrity would have HAD to put "creationist" in the title when dealing with ol' Kirk...google his videos if you are unfamilar...feel free to laugh loud and long(and often).
Two Pro-Creationist articles from NPR - IN ONE DAY!! Forgive my incredulity, I wouldn't have believed it if my best friend told me; I'd think she was tricking me. I had to see this firsthand.

Now I almost wish I didn't.

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

44. Comment #345101 by ConcernedEducator on February 22, 2009 at 11:02 pm

 avatar"... But that is better than supplying the creationists with what they crave: the oxygen of respectability in the world of real science." Richard Dawkins
--------------------------------
This is, sadly, mistaken - They never cared about real science; what the creationists crave (and are now getting) is the oxygen of respectability with the LAITY - they turn any debate into a rant designed to evoke the emotions of the general audience.

Just wait for the flood of "alternates to evolution" Christian movies coming out in the next few months. Scary stuff.

I still insist that my methodology deals with the clowns in a direct and lasting manner.

EDIT: Looking at the comments, it appears I am talking to myself. Brilliant!

Other Comments by ConcernedEducator

45. Comment #345732 by mrobrian on February 24, 2009 at 8:37 am

In response to the comment that Stephen Jay Gould, a member of the National Academy of Sciences, has never published a peer-reviewed paper on evolution.
And this is not all.

"Cope's Rule as Psychological artefact." Nature 385 (Jan. 1997): 199-200.
"Tempo and mode in the macroevolutionary reconstruction of Darwinism." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States 91 (July 1994): 6764-71.
"A developmental constraint in Cerion, with comments on the definition and interpretation of constraint in evolution." Evolution 43 (May 1989): 516-39.
(With Niles Eldredge)."Punctuated equilibrium prevails: Ordovician paleontology." Nature 332 (March. 1988): 211-12.
"On Replacing the Idea of Progress with an Operational Notion of Directionality." In: M. H. Nitecki, ed., Evolutionary Progress. Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1988. Pp. 319-38.
(With Niles Eldredge). "Punctuated Equilibrium at the Third Stage." Systematic Zoology 35 (1986): 143-48.
"Evolution and Systematics Of Cerion (Mollusca: Pulmonata) On New Providence Island : A Radical Revision." Bulletin Of The American Museum Of Natural History 182 (Feb 1986): 389-490
(With R. C. Lewontin). "The Spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian Paradigm: A Critique of the Adaptationist Programme." Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B 205 (1979): 581-98.
"Morton's Ranking of Races by Cranial Capacity." Science 200 (1978): 503-509.
(With Niles Eldredge). "Punctuated Equilibria: The Tempo and Mode of Evolution Reconsidered." Paleobiology 3 (1977): 115-51.
(With Niles Eldridge). "Punctuated Equilibria: An Alternative to Phyletic Gradualism." In: Thomas J. M. Shopf, ed., Models in Paleobiology. San Francisco: Freeman, Cooper and Co., 1972. Pp. 82-115.
"An Evolutionary Microcosm: Pleistocene and Recent History of the Land Snail P. (Poecilozonites) in Bermuda." Bulletin of the Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University 138 (1969): 407-531.
"Pleistocene and Recent History of the Subgenus Poecilozonites (Poecilozonites) (Gastropoda: Pulmonata) in Bermuda: An Evolutionary Microcosm." Ph.D. diss., Columbia Univ., 1967.

Other Comments by mrobrian

46. Comment #419190 by Majesty on September 26, 2009 at 1:26 pm

Someone above (comment #8, by Beyond) claims that 'one of us creationists' is a Yale scientist named 'Fred Figworth'.
Funny, I looked up his name, and the only websites his name appears on, are hundreds of creationist websites. So, I thought maybe Figworth was a work of fiction. Well, he is, but there IS a Yale-professor called 'Fred Sigworth'. Funny enough, all these creationists with their so-called scientific evidence can't even spell the names of the people who they claim are on their side. They just repeat their fictional babble.
I was not the only one looking up Mr Figworth. The person on this site can write it nicer than I can: http://home.tiac.net/~cri_c/editorials/edit059.html

Other Comments by Majesty

47. Comment #422789 by Jekamixwa2212 on October 10, 2009 at 12:11 am

Being 15 years old and trying to focus hard enough to either choose a religion that means something to me, or become an agnostic and go with evolution, my choice has just been pushed somewhat more towards the side of Dawkin's belief.
I can now say I've never seen someone so hell bent on trying to debate against an extremely famous evolutionist such as Dawkins. This Karl Priest is a self-righteous screwball, who not anyone should have to prove anything too. I've never felt so happy insulting such a "Believer." Thank you for showing me even a grown scientist can act like a 10 year old. You're a fool Mr. Mastropaolo.




Edit: ConcernedEducator I agree with every single comment you've posted. In my later years i'd be glad to donate any extra money to prove any idiotic creationist like Karl wrong.

Other Comments by Jekamixwa2212

48. Comment #422819 by Goldy on October 10, 2009 at 7:17 am

 avatarComment #422789 by Jekamixwa2212
Evolution is not a belief system, it is a theory, backed by evidence, of how things have become what they are today from earlier forms.
Religion is a method of extracting money in vast quantities from gullible people.
See the difference?

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