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Wednesday, June 6, 2007 | Reason : Political | print version Print | Comments |

Document Don't Know Much Biology

by Jerry Coyne, Edge

Thanks to Mark Richards for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/coyne07/coyne07_index.html

Whether he knows it or not, Brownback's forthright declarations, denying any possibility that empirical matters of fact might differ from those assumed by his creed, amount to nothing less than a rejection of the whole institution of science. Who is "we", and where did "our" conviction and certainty come from? Would Brownback believe these "spiritual truths" if he hadn't been taught them as a child, or brought up in the United States instead of China?

According to Brownback, we should reject scientific findings if they conflict with our faith, but accept them if they're compatible. But the scientific evidence says that humans are big-brained, highly conscious apes that began evolving on the African savannah four million years ago. Are we supposed to reject this as "atheistic theology" (an oxymoron if there ever was one)?

DON'T KNOW MUCH BIOLOGY
By Jerry Coyne


jerry

JERRY COYNE is a professor in the department of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago, where he works on diverse areas of evolutionary genetics. He is the author (with H. Allen Orr) of Speciation.

Jerry Coyne's Edge Bio Page




DON'T KNOW MUCH BIOLOGY

Suppose we asked a group of Presidential candidates if they believed in the existence of atoms, and a third of them said "no"? That would be a truly appalling show of scientific illiteracy, would it not? And all the more shocking coming from those who aspire to run a technologically sophisticated nation.

Yet something like this happened a week ago during the Republican presidential debate. When the moderator asked nine candidates to raise their hands if they "didn't believe in evolution," three hands went into the air—those of Senator Sam Brownback, Governor Mike Huckabee, and Representative Tom Tancredo. Although I am a biologist who has found himself battling creationism frequently throughout his professional life, I was still mortified. Because there is just as much evidence for the fact of evolution as there is for the existence of atoms, anyone raising his hand must have been grossly misinformed.

I don't know whether to attribute the show of hands to the candidates' ignorance of the mountain of evidence for evolution, or to a cynical desire to pander to a public that largely rejects evolution (more than half of Americans do). But I do know that it means that our country is in trouble. As science becomes more and more important in dealing with the world's problems, Americans are falling farther and farther behind in scientific literacy. Among citizens of industrialized nations, Americans rank near the bottom in their understanding of math and science. Over half of all Americans don't know that the Earth orbits the Sun once a year, and nearly half think that humans once lived, Flintstone-like, alongside dinosaurs.

Now maybe evolutionary biology isn't going to propel America into the forefront of world science, but creationism (and its gussied-up descendant "Intelligent Design") is not just a campaign against evolution—it's a campaign against science itself and the scientific method. By pretending that evolution is on shaky ground, and asserting that religion can contribute to our understanding of nature, creationists confuse people about the very form and character of scientific evidence. This confusion can only hurt our ability to make rational judgments about important social issues, like global warming, that involve science.

Senator Brownback showed this poisonous mixture of scientific ignorance and religious dogmatism in a May 31 op-ed piece in The New York Times ("What I Think About Evolution"), written to clarify why he raised his hand to dissent from Darwinism. The first thing that's clear is that Brownback displays a fundamental misunderstanding of evolutionary biology. He claims that there is "no one single theory of evolution," citing punctuated equilibrium as an alternative to Darwinism. (He's apparently implying that there might be something dubious about evolution because there's a multiplicity of theories).

Well, he is wrong here for two reasons. First, the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium is no longer widely accepted, and second (as its proponent Stephen Jay Gould repeatedly averred), it was conceived as an expansion of Darwinism, not an alternative to it. There is only one going theory of evolution, and it is this: organisms evolved gradually over time and split into different species, and the main engine of evolutionary change was natural selection. Sure, some details of these processes are unsettled, but there is no argument among biologists about the main claims.

Brownback also presents the familiar creationist misrepresentation of evolution as a chance process, claiming that "man . . . is merely the chance product of random mutations." He doesn't seem to know that while mutations occur by chance, natural selection, which builds complex bodies by saving the most adaptive mutations, emphatically does not. Like all species, man is a product of both chance and lawfulness.

Lifting another claim from the creationist handbook, Brownback limits the ability of evolution to making only "the small changes that take place within a species." That's just false. Yes, evolution makes small changes, but over time they add up to big ones. As the old proverb goes, take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves. The evolution of amphibians from fish, reptiles from amphibians, birds from reptiles, and humans from apelike ancestors—all of these are amply documented in the fossil record. For decades, creationists have lovingly perpetuated this myth, that evolution can make small changes but not big ones, oblivious to the mounting evidence, not just from the fossil record, but from genetics, biogeography, embryology, and geology.

Senator Brownback, along with his two dissenting colleagues, really should be forced to answer a rather more embarrassing question: who is responsible for their being so misinformed? Where did they learn the so-called "problems" with evolution: at their mothers' knees, or in Sunday school? Or perhaps from reading books; and, if so, what books, and who recommended them? Doesn't a public servant have a responsibility to stay informed across a wide spectrum of topics and issues?

Given how Brownback plays fast and loose with the facts, or ignores them altogether, it's fair to ask why the New York Times went along with publishing misleading statements about evolution. Doesn't somebody at the Times keep an eye out for gross errors of fact on the editorial pages? Brownback is surely entitled to say that science can't tell us we should behave, but is he also entitled to misrepresent the central principle of biology? An opinion is an opinion, but it's not a very good one when based on "facts" that just aren't so.

Brownback's misunderstanding of science is more dangerous than his ignorance of evolution, and should be disconcerting to educators and parents hoping to see their children educated properly. He rejects evolution if "it means assenting to an exclusively materialistic, deterministic vision of the world that holds no place for a guiding intelligence." Using that criterion he'd have to reject all of science, including physics and chemistry!

Science simply doesn't deal with hypotheses about a guiding intelligence, or supernatural phenomena like miracles, because science is the search for rational explanations of natural phenomena. We don't reject the supernatural merely because we have an overweening philosophical commitment to materialism; we reject it because entertaining the supernatural has never helped us understand the natural world. Alchemy, faith healing, astrology, creationism—none of these perspectives has advanced our understanding of nature by one iota. So Brownback's proposal to bring faith to the table of science is misguided: "As science continues to explore the details of man's origin, faith can do its part as well." What part? Where are faith's testable predictions or falsifiable hypotheses about human origins?

Brownback's ill-conceived accommodationism between science and faith extends to the notion of truth itself. He accepts the common view that "science seeks to discover the truths about the nature of the created order and how it operates, whereas faith deals with spiritual truths." Nearly all scientists would object to the word "created" in this sentence, but in any case it's doubtful whether any "truth" (in the sense of something that conforms to fact) can be gained through spirituality alone.

Scientific truths are facts agreed on by all observers using scientific methods. The formula for water is H2O, the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second. These are matters that can be verified empirically by any scientist, be she Muslim, Catholic, or Hindu.

But what is "spiritual truth"? It is simply what someone believes to be true, without any need for evidence. One man's spiritual truth is another man's spiritual lie. Jesus may be the son of God to Christians, but not to Muslims. The Inuit creation story begins with a pair of giants who chopped off their daughter's fingers, which became seals, whales, walrus, and salmon. There have been thousands of religions, and thousands of religious "spiritual truths," but many of them conflict with each other, and some of them conflict with science.

Many Americans, for example, have been taught by their religion to believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old. The Inuits are wrong too: whales didn't come from detached digits but from land mammals. And those "spiritual truths" that aren't palpably false are systematically immune to challenge or rational investigation. There is simply no way to find out of them is really "true", just as we can't know which religion, if any, is "true". Is there any need, then, to speak of spiritual truths? Shouldn't we just call them "beliefs based on faith alone?" When "faith does its part," then, what does it contribute to our understanding of the way things are?

Most ominous is Brownback's absolute, dead certainty about the nature of the world and the reason why we're here. (He gets it all from the Bible, of course).

"The unique and special place of each and every person in creation is a fundamental truth that must be safeguarded."

"I firmly believe that each human person, regardless of circumstance, was willed into being and made for a purpose."

". . the process of creation—and indeed life today—is sustained by the hand of God in a manner known fully only to him."


And this:

"While no stone should be left unturned in seeking to discover the nature of man's origins, we can say with conviction that we know with certainty at least part of the outcome. Man was not an accident and reflects an image and likeness unique in the created order. Those aspects of evolutionary theory compatible with this truth are a welcome addition to human knowledge. Aspects of these theories that undermine this truth, however, should be firmly rejected as atheistic theology posing as science."


Whether he knows it or not, Brownback's forthright declarations, denying any possibility that empirical matters of fact might differ from those assumed by his creed, amount to nothing less than a rejection of the whole institution of science. Who is "we", and where did "our" conviction and certainty come from? Would Brownback believe these "spiritual truths" if he hadn't been taught them as a child, or brought up in the United States instead of China?

According to Brownback, we should reject scientific findings if they conflict with our faith, but accept them if they're compatible. But the scientific evidence says that humans are big-brained, highly conscious apes that began evolving on the African savannah four million years ago. Are we supposed to reject this as "atheistic theology" (an oxymoron if there ever was one)? The religious conviction that "man" is unique in ways that really matter is compelling in many ways—surely our language, art, music, and science itself are unique products of life on this planet—but holding our uniqueness to be a dogma immune to scientific analysis is an arrogant, and ultimately foolhardy, declaration of authority.

This attitude has enormous political—and educational—implications. What happens if scientific truth conflicts with a politician's "spiritual truth"? This is not a theoretical problem, but a real one, as we see in debates about stem-cell research, abortion, genetic engineering, and global warming. Ignorance about evolution may be widespread, but it's not nearly as dangerous as dogmatic certainty about the real world based on faith alone.

Comments 1 - 50 of 52 |

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1. Comment #48162 by alovrin on June 6, 2007 at 11:01 pm

 avatarJerry Coyne is really beginning to hit his stride as a writer and advocate of science. This is the second article/talk I have seen by him it is clear and well argued. I look forward to hearing more.

Other Comments by alovrin

2. Comment #48166 by krogercomplete on June 6, 2007 at 11:23 pm

It just makes so much damned sense.

Other Comments by krogercomplete

3. Comment #48171 by Logicel on June 7, 2007 at 12:28 am

 avatarI love this guy.

Other Comments by Logicel

4. Comment #48172 by greg_m on June 7, 2007 at 12:43 am

"The religious conviction that "man" is unique in ways that really matter is compelling in many ways—surely our language, art, music, and science itself are unique products of life on this planet—but holding our uniqueness to be a dogma immune to scientific analysis is an arrogant, and ultimately foolhardy, declaration of authority".


I think this is a really important aspect of the debate. Fundies often say "human life is not special if evolution is true", and I think there are many atheistic people who actually encourage this view. A good example was a dreadful video posted on this website a few weeks ago about humans being 'Just Another Monkey', which tried to dismiss any special value to humans. This is a hideous mindset, deserved of scorn.

To defeat religious waffle we need to celebrate the genuinely unique and valuable traits and achievements of human beings, as well as demand evidence for our beliefs.

Other Comments by greg_m

5. Comment #48175 by Logicel on June 7, 2007 at 12:51 am

 avatargreg_m, That 'monkey' video also leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It undermines the value of monkeys also. The makers of the video, unfortunately, in their earnestness to show how divisive and silly humans can be, left out any allusion to the wonderful achievements done by humanity and its staggering potential to continue to do so.

There are other videos which emphasize how connected humanity is, rather than focusing its sundering into divisive elements. I prefer them.

Other Comments by Logicel

6. Comment #48177 by Logicel on June 7, 2007 at 12:58 am

 avatarSam Cooke song Wonderful World is where Coyne took his wonderful title from, here are the lyrics:

Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took

But I do know that I love you
And I know that if you love me too
What a wonderful world this would be

Don't know much about geography
Don't know much trigonomitry
Don't know much about algebra
Don't know what a slide rule is for

But I do know one and one is two
And if this one could be with you
What a wonderful world this would be

Now I don't claim, to be an A-student
But I'm trying to be
For maybe by being an A-student, baby
I could win your love for me


{repeat first two blocks)

Now in America, if a guy wants to win a gal, he needs to show off his ignorance of science.

Other Comments by Logicel

7. Comment #48206 by pewkatchoo on June 7, 2007 at 3:44 am

 avatarDevastating! Clear, incisive rebuttal of everything that the creationist lobby stands for. Jerry Coyne is right, we should be very worried if our elected representatives have these viewpoints.

If they win, we should weep for the probable passing of mankind.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

8. Comment #48212 by Philip1978 on June 7, 2007 at 4:01 am

 avatarpewkatchoo
Think about what horrors my fellow country folk and I will have to face when the next election happens in England. The party I want to vote for has recently been toying with the creationism in schools stuff and the other party's are either a bunch of bLiars or simply awful. I want to get this guy over to explain a few things, Americans get to see him first, there need is slightly more pressing at the moment!!

Other Comments by Philip1978

9. Comment #48219 by Misha Vargas on June 7, 2007 at 4:45 am

 avatarI don't think the term "atheistic theology" is such an oxymoron.

Atheist is a word that does refer directly to "god".

A lot of "atheists" don't even like to use the word, because it's so specific and doesn't mention all of the silly things they don't believe in.

Still, "atheistic theology" seems a little misleading.

Other Comments by Misha Vargas

10. Comment #48227 by pewkatchoo on June 7, 2007 at 6:03 am

 avatarPhilip
I am a Brit too, Scots to be precise. I have sent emails to my MP about his parties plan, I live in a Tory area, to introduce creationist science in schools and have asked for a full explanation of their position. I have also told him that I am against the establishment of any further faith schools and want to know what his parties stance is on this too.

I agree with you about the other lot, but don't shout about it to loud as we have quite a few people in here who think they are wonderful. Even atheists can be delusional (^8.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

11. Comment #48230 by Philip1978 on June 7, 2007 at 6:33 am

 avatarpewkatchoo, sorry, I don't like to guess countries, I cant hear your accent when you type hehehehe!

I don't want to shout about politics too much, I know what I am up against here and I don't mean to offend in anyway...except of course if its religion, then you lot are all fair game hehehe!!

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12. Comment #48235 by Hip_Priest on June 7, 2007 at 6:42 am

Over half of all Americans don't know that the Earth orbits the Sun once a year


I don't believe that for one second.

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13. Comment #48241 by pewkatchoo on June 7, 2007 at 7:22 am

 avatarPhilip
If you visit my website www.pukiemon.com, you could pretty much work out where I come from. I thought that 'pewkatchoo' was a bit of a giveaway too.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

14. Comment #48242 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 7, 2007 at 7:25 am

 avatar12. Comment #48235 by Hip_Priest on June 7, 2007 at 6:42 am

Over half of all Americans don't know that the Earth orbits the Sun once a year


I don't believe that for one second.


Well I wouldn't go that far, but I do find it fairly astounding. Anyone know where this info comes from, and if it's right?

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

15. Comment #48245 by Philip1978 on June 7, 2007 at 7:32 am

 avatarpewkatchoo I am a simple English lad, you can tell by the vacant look in my picture, some things simply fly past and I don't see them!
Am having trouble accessing your site too, firefox is misbehaving today!

Other Comments by Philip1978

16. Comment #48249 by pewkatchoo on June 7, 2007 at 7:38 am

 avatarBrian try looking here:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/279/5357/1640
Apathy about science and technology seems especially rampant among my fellow Americans, among whom indifference toward scientific understanding is almost considered a badge of honor. A recent National Science Foundation survey showed that less than half of American adults understand that the Earth orbits the sun yearly, only 21 percent can define DNA, and just 9 percent know what a molecule is. Another poll showed that one in seven American adults--roughly 25 million people--could not even locate the United States on an unlabeled world map. NASA administrator Dan Goldin cites a question he received while defending funding for the space agency: "Why are we building meteorological satellites when we have the Weather Channel?"


I cannot vouch for the validity of the statement though.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

17. Comment #48253 by konquererz on June 7, 2007 at 7:43 am

 avatar

Over half of all Americans don't know that the Earth orbits the Sun once a year



I don't believe that for one second.


Christians believe in the ten commandments, yet over 75% of them don't know them. Most Americans can't even say the Pledge of Allegiance or sing America the Beautiful, yet they are very patriotic.

I have met, personally, people who know that we orbit the sun, but don't know that is the reason for our year. I also know people who don't believe the universe is as big as science says it is and believe just like Brownback and Huckabee. Please, don't fool yourself, there is a supreme amount of supreme ignorance floating around in American minds!

But secondly, this article is hard, straight, and dead on accurate. Fabulously put and spoken like a true scholar. Once again I am forced to mourn for our future generations. To bad I can only effect my own three kids education. They really eat science stuff up.

Other Comments by konquererz

18. Comment #48256 by Murray Keedis on June 7, 2007 at 7:49 am

A puny, runt of a museum recently opened in Canada's red-neck province, Alberta. Founded and funded by a chap who toils in oil, this 900 square foot building celebrates the "science" of creationism. It's nowhere near as grand and wearying as the Kentucky Museum of Egregious Lies (or whatever the Hades that edifice to fundamentalist creationist-mongering is called) but it's still bizarre to see a monument of monumental error erected by a man who makes a living off remains of ancient life.

In an article in Canada's national newspaper, the Globe and Mail, a tea-shoppe owner was quoted, offering profound scientific wisdom and analysis, saying that the Earth couldn't be over 4 billion years old – it just couldn't be. No word, other than her absolute and blind abidance in the Word, why she thinks this is so.

This is a wonderful article by Prof. Coyne and I hope to see more scientists coming forward with this brilliant and thoughtful line of reasoning.

I just started reading "The Canon: A Whirligig Tour of the Beautiful Basics of Science" by Natalie Angier. Horrified by rampant illiteracy in science, Angier wrote this book with the hopes of getting people to become acquainted with science and shelf superstitions and unenlightened "opinion". As one scientist said: "Unfortunately, people often regard science…as a matter of opinion. I do or don't like George Bush, I do or don't believe in evolution. It doesn't matter why I don't believe in evolution, it doesn't matter what the evidence is, I just don't believe in it."

Other Comments by Murray Keedis

19. Comment #48263 by Hip_Priest on June 7, 2007 at 8:07 am

An earlier post of mine:
Over half of all Americans don't know that the Earth orbits the Sun once a year


I don't believe that for one second.



http://orgtheory.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/eppure-si-muoveor-does-it/

If this is accurate, then the truth might not be much better.

Other Comments by Hip_Priest

20. Comment #48269 by Jeffersonian-Marxist on June 7, 2007 at 8:53 am

 avatar14. Comment #48242 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on June 7, 2007 at 7:25 am

Well I wouldn't go that far, but I do find it fairly astounding. Anyone know where this info comes from, and if it's right?

Not sure where the info comes from, but as a product of American public education, and seeing the idiocy first hand I wouldn't doubt it. I remember a teacher I had a year ago was telling our class how only some 47% of US students couldn't locate their own country on a map, it was only around 12% who could locate Iraq. One only needs two years of science education to graduate in my state (Colorado) and only three years of mathematics, which helps defog American ignorance of scientific fact. I went through the International Baccalaureate program, so I have a better grasp of reality than most of my peers, but the benightedness doesn't astound me in any way

Other Comments by Jeffersonian-Marxist

21. Comment #48288 by graham513 on June 7, 2007 at 10:33 am

Really well put. Growing Up In The Universe should be required in every teaching institution including the faith based ones. If people can watch that and still think evolution isn't likely, theres no hope for them.

Other Comments by graham513

22. Comment #48424 by jackdavis on June 7, 2007 at 10:53 pm

Excellent article by Dr.Coyne. A few posters didn't believe him when he said half of all Americans don't know the Earth orbits the sun in a year. It's true, however. Lawrence Krauss in the great atheistic magazine Free Inquiry (April/may 2006)says "in a 2001 National Science Foundation survey of scientific literacy, just 50% of American adults knew that the Earth orbits the sun and takes a year to do it."

Fortunately, Brownback has no chance of becoming President.

Other Comments by jackdavis

23. Comment #48464 by neddludd on June 8, 2007 at 3:40 am

For more details on the candidates' faith, the Belief Net is running a series of interviews with them. First, John Edwards.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/213/story_21312_1.html

He comes off like a real wanker.

Then, Dennis Kucinich.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/139/story_13914_1.html

He comes across relatively well by not getting into any pandering.

Subsequent interviews should also be informative.

Other Comments by neddludd

24. Comment #48802 by phasmagigas on June 9, 2007 at 5:12 am

 avatarOf the americans(for eg) who reject evolution you can bet that the majority of them would also fail at describing what it even is (something simple like mutation, selection, accumulating changes). A very small minority would understand the process and still reject it (im not sure which is worse). Of course there are those who accept it and who also cant describe it but as they also accept the use of asprin and (relatively)efficient engines without knowing how they work they are at least being consistent. the average person might not need to know evo theory but part of me thinks that as it explains our origins (and just what is a more fundamental enquiry)so well it is perhaps the most obvious thing we should learn and understand. I dont even remember being taught anything about evolution before being 18 but i do remember singing 'who put the colours in the rainbow?' at school and still know all the words!!!

Other Comments by phasmagigas

25. Comment #48847 by baal on June 9, 2007 at 7:23 am

Dear Misha


I have to disagree with you about your comment that "atheistic theology" is not an oxymoron!

Maybe the best way to explain the contradiction is to use other, equivalent terms.

If "atheism" is equivalent to either "belief that there is no god" or "knowledge that there is no god," then it is the same as "godlessness." And surely "godless theology" is oxymoronic because "theology" is the study of "god" and his/her/its/their relationship(s) to the world (you can look "theology" up in the dictionary if you like). So "atheistic theology" is oxymoronic, too.

Sorry for my rather tortuous explanation - I might as well have been brought up by Jesuits... :)

Other Comments by baal

26. Comment #48869 by Misha Vargas on June 9, 2007 at 9:08 am

 avatarTo baal (I prefer ba'al)

You may have a very good case about this (quite unimportant) issue.

Most definitions of theology do seem to assume a god's existence. I was surprised at that. It seem'd to me that atheism was a very simple form of theology. I feel the term is a bit nonintuitive.

Also the word godless. (Defined in my dictionary as worshiping or recognizing no god) It's almost as if the users of the word are admitting that god is only in your head, and if you don't believe in it, it doesn't exist (for you). Weird word.

Hey, that reminds me of the paradoxasaur!

Other Comments by Misha Vargas

27. Comment #48875 by flyingscot on June 9, 2007 at 9:53 am

 avatarWell, that was a treat! Turning on my PC today and reading Prof. Jerry Coyne's excellent article.
I have spent the last half-hour checking out the links on the thread concerning what Americans believe about the earth's orbit around the sun as I too found that difficult to believe.
After reading the data about these polls I am truly at a loss for words.
Education is the key and young people are being denied access.

Other Comments by flyingscot

28. Comment #48900 by lt_zippy2 on June 9, 2007 at 12:09 pm

With regards to "atheistic theology" just type the word "atheology" into any good search engine and you'll find the subject does indeed exist, as a branch of philosophy.

Wouldn't mind doing a course in that.

Other Comments by lt_zippy2

29. Comment #48918 by AburKadabur on June 9, 2007 at 2:55 pm

America is a failed experiment.

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30. Comment #48926 by krogercomplete on June 9, 2007 at 3:48 pm

America is a failed experiment.


Single tear.

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31. Comment #48927 by Enlightenme.. on June 9, 2007 at 3:58 pm

 avatar#6 Logicel,

"Now in America, if a guy wants to win a gal, he needs to show off his ignorance of science."

That word 'geek' has something to do with this anti-'scientism' thing I reckon.

Everybody knows geeks can't get laid.

America's gonna be up the swannee pretty quick if the delusion gene turns out to be the fittest !

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

32. Comment #48990 by Auld on June 9, 2007 at 11:07 pm

The next time someone tries to sock you with
"Are you a materialist, then?", just reply,

"Are you an immaterialist? Then stop eating."

So tired of that question. Anyone has a better repartee?

Other Comments by Auld

33. Comment #49019 by mpbrockman on June 10, 2007 at 2:54 am

How do I quote on this forum?

Never mind. In response to the idea that America is a failed experiment. I would re-label it an experiment derailed. The writings of Paine, Jefferson, Madison and other founders remain thoughtful, brilliant and relevant. Much like the writer of the article above.

To paraphrase Chesterton on (of all things) Xtianity. Perhaps the democratic ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been hijacked by people ignorant of what that ideal was, proud of their ignorance, and sure that God wants it that way.

Tom Paine would have spit.

Other Comments by mpbrockman

34. Comment #49032 by reggiedixon on June 10, 2007 at 3:46 am

greg_m, logicel - The Monkey video

I think you are mistaken, firstly the video was what I would call "sardonic humour" (I'm British by the way), secondly I firmly believe that it is wrong to act as though we are superior to the other animals in some way.
I would actually characterise it as one of the keystones of religious thought that we are somehow special.

Other Comments by reggiedixon

35. Comment #49057 by Enlightenme.. on June 10, 2007 at 6:03 am

 avatar^ Of course we are special, and it's about time we acted our age.

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36. Comment #49058 by sgr79 on June 10, 2007 at 6:20 am

 avatar1. APPLAUSE for Coyne!!!!!!!!

2. Re: post 16 by pewkatchoo as well as a couple of other posts, the Science article mentioned was published in 1998, so the Free Inquiry mention is more recent (though the surevy is still from 2001). Just something to keep in mind!

However, in the 1998 Science article, there is a great Isaac Asimov quote:

"Increasingly, our leaders must deal with dangers that threaten the entire world, where an understanding of those dangers and the possible solutions depends on a good grasp of science. The ozone layer, the greenhouse effect, acid rain, questions of diet and heredity--all require scientific literacy. Can Americans choose the proper leaders and support the proper programs if they [themselves] are scientifically illiterate?"

Other Comments by sgr79

37. Comment #49061 by BAEOZ on June 10, 2007 at 6:54 am

 avatarpewkatchoo where do I come from? I'm stralian?

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38. Comment #49062 by BAEOZ on June 10, 2007 at 6:56 am

 avatarOh and ignore the dasyurid if you can when giving your answer....

Other Comments by BAEOZ

39. Comment #49064 by BAEOZ on June 10, 2007 at 7:09 am

 avatar
Most Americans can't even say the Pledge of Allegiance or sing America the Beautiful, yet they are very patriotic.

As the Roman guy said, give the masses food and circus and they will do what you will.....

And as for atheist theology. Lack of belief in the study of a god? I'm not blaming anyone here, but we perhaps when someone arrives we may point out that we (in this case I'm speaking for myself and guessing I'm not alone) don't believe that god (or Thor) doesn't exist, simply we have no evidence to the existence of the god of Abraham, or said tooth fairy. I'm not a philosopher, so I may be contradicted, but as I see it, lack of belief isn't positive belief in anything.... Sorry, the lure of Boags Premium, I may be talking rubbish.

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40. Comment #49084 by JDAM on June 10, 2007 at 8:46 am

re: Comment #48918

An experiment in what?

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41. Comment #49087 by JDAM on June 10, 2007 at 8:54 am

re Comment #48927

I could be a model for the guy on the cover of "...FOR DUMMIES", but I have a T shirt that says "Will fix computers for nookie" and barely have time to sleep. You obviously don't know anything about Geeks with Skills...poor guy!

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42. Comment #49180 by Tumara Baap on June 10, 2007 at 11:17 pm

I wouldn't hold it against the Times for publishing the Op-Ed. There's a reason they call it an opinion and don't lump it with the rest of the news. Whereas op-eds are usually published for their worthy insight, it is no less important to glean the thinking behind persons of interest especially when that thinking is royally screwed up. In this case it was just that: "Can you believe this buffoon?" Follow up comments in the Time were mostly critical of Brownback.

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43. Comment #49183 by TIKI AL on June 10, 2007 at 11:38 pm

I believe the case for evolution was made once and for all when 3 living missing links raised their hands on the republican debate stage.

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44. Comment #49220 by Calilasseia on June 11, 2007 at 4:05 am

 avatarTo Jerry Coyne:

If you are reading this, congratulations on a timely and apposite piece. If there is any chance you could come to the UK sometime and knock some sense into some of our politicians, as well as shaming the assorted ignorami in US politics, then this too would be welcome. Bring a VERY large hammer with which to knock the sense into their forebrains. :)

Oh, and to Tiki Al above (#43), hat tip. :)

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45. Comment #49245 by minstrel on June 11, 2007 at 6:15 am

 avatarRegarding comment #31
Everybody knows geeks can't get laid.

This may be true in High School, but it just isn't true when "real life" hits. By the time a stupid teen girl becomes a woman, her hormones have matured to instincts and then she smartens up. Once that happens, the guys with brains have the upper hand.
"Would you like some fries with that?" gets a woman's "spidey-sense" tingling.
"Rhodopseudonomas viridis, a purple bacterium, contains a photosynthetic reaction center that is analogous to photosystem II of green plants." gets her thinking naughty. Especially if you follow that up with, "Your bodacious mammaries are really revving up my reaction center."
Okay... maybe not that last part.

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46. Comment #49266 by gcdavis on June 11, 2007 at 8:08 am

 avatarI agree with alovrin and others about Jerry Coyne, he is a another great voice in the battle against ignorance and hypocrisy.

Another great "male" voice, but where are the prominent women in this debate?

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47. Comment #49276 by blaine on June 11, 2007 at 9:50 am

Wow, this is really well written.

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48. Comment #49297 by RabbitDynamite on June 11, 2007 at 12:26 pm

Does anyone find that the second Brownback quote provides an excellent definition of fundamentalist religious views - "If it disagrees with what I believe, it is wrong."

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49. Comment #49366 by sgr79 on June 11, 2007 at 4:22 pm

 avatar
Does anyone find that the second Brownback quote provides an excellent definition of fundamentalist religious views - "If it disagrees with what I believe, it is wrong."


It certainly provides an excellent characteristic!

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50. Comment #49380 by ThomasB on June 11, 2007 at 5:46 pm

 avatarI too heared the sinister undertones in Brownback's (Holy Ghostwritten) op-ed in which he also posited that "Faith seeks to purify reason..."

When haven't the pious attempted to purify reason, and the reasonable? William of Ockham, Galileo Galilei and Baruch Spinoza would have perfectly understood Brownback's pledge to the faithful for the (continued) purification of science in America.

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