1. Comment #49368 by USA_Limey on June 11, 2007 at 4:27 pm

I wonder what result you would get if you repeated the same poll in China.

Oh that's right, no one would have time to respond they are all too busy studying math and physics.

Goodbye America!

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2. Comment #49373 by Damien White on June 11, 2007 at 4:54 pm

"Yeah, being a Republican may not be causal, but going to church every week since childhood probably induces brain damage."

Preach it, brother!
A baptist minister once quoted the bible at me in an attempt to deconvince me of my atheism. i'll try to remember the conversation word for word:

Him: And Jesus said unto Thomas, "Blessed are you for you have seen me and believe, but more blessed are those who have not seen me and believe, for their's is the kingdom of heaven."
Me: The kingdom of heaven and a home for the retarded sound awfully similar.

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3. Comment #49374 by boblin on June 11, 2007 at 5:12 pm

Heh - realising the religious brain drain is a threat to the economy - if that doesn't tempt the politicians away from pandering to christian voters, nothing will.

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4. Comment #49381 by TIKI AL on June 11, 2007 at 5:47 pm

Huckabee on Tweety(Chris Matthews/Hardball)today: "I don't think an American family having dinner around their table cares if their president believes in evolution or not."

This one is a real moron, folks. Beware!

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5. Comment #49398 by cal_mertes on June 11, 2007 at 7:53 pm

"Heh - realising the religious brain drain is a threat to the economy - if that doesn't tempt the politicians away from pandering to christian voters, nothing will."

the damage to the economy is secondary to politicians. what counts is votes and contributions.

now businesses may care. OTOH, it is easier to sell junk to the uneducated.

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6. Comment #49400 by waxwings on June 11, 2007 at 7:59 pm

Those results are an embarrassment. I am so ashamed to be an American citizen.

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7. Comment #49401 by BMMcArdle on June 11, 2007 at 8:02 pm

Asking someone if they believe something is a loaded question, suggesting that it is a matter of belief, instead of something that is quite factual. No one would think of asking someone if they believed in electricity or gravity.

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8. Comment #49403 by MIND_REBEL on June 11, 2007 at 8:10 pm

Although, Al Gore is a creationist and Hillary thinks god cares about her husband. One side isn't any better than the other. They're both theistic morons.

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9. Comment #49411 by PeterK on June 11, 2007 at 9:33 pm

Damien--terrific exchange:

Him: And Jesus said unto Thomas, "Blessed are you for you have seen me and believe, but more blessed are those who have not seen me and believe, for their's is the kingdom of heaven."
Me: The kingdom of heaven and a home for the retarded sound awfully similar.

My only worry here is that this will more than likely literally swoosh over all empty the heads of those of 'faith'--and herein lies the problem which frustrates the kahoonies of all us non-believers. And that is arming the masses the tools of how to discern pure nonsense from reality.

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10. Comment #49414 by 5537P06 on June 11, 2007 at 9:57 pm

Huckabee on Tweety(Chris Matthews/Hardball)today: "I don't think an American family having dinner around their table cares if their president believes in evolution or not."

Unfortunately, this survey shows that he is exactly right... That's how we got our current one. We are a nation of morons! So sad...

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11. Comment #49416 by TIKI AL on June 11, 2007 at 10:21 pm

You guys are being too hard on yourselves.
Last time I checked, (2004), there were only 59 million morons in America.

Thank you all for the sane company(it helps), and thanks to Richard for the space to vent.

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12. Comment #49419 by Beachbum on June 11, 2007 at 10:55 pm

"Pandering" Is there a less ingenuous word I could use, even this one seems to carry a hint of sincerity, a concept unknown in political circles.
Unfortunately, I think the comments are reflecting the same mistake the religious idiots make every day, they forget that politicians are professional liars. A weight lifter could not pull the truth from one with a crowbar. One must watch what they do, not what their lips do. Remember Bush Sr.,"Read my lips!". We did. And while we were reading, he stuck it to us.
Our forefathers knew that to have a stable Democracy, education for all was paramount. The politically religious, Capitalist, power mongers running that dump that is DC find an educated electorate inconvenient. They like the 30 second blurb and a power tie. This chart directly reflects the move away from our founding fathers vision for this country. Also don't confuse a country with its government or its people, the United States is and always has been an ideal ( ok, a slightly retarded ideal, at the moment) an ideal well worth saving from the enemies within none-the-less.
Religious education is a very important tactic, not some pundit pounding proverbs, but what religion is 'really is' all religions, superstitions, cults, myths etc. We must fight to escape the residue of the dark ages.
This is not the first time I have felt shame for my countrymen. Thanks for the post.

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13. Comment #49444 by pissinintothewind on June 12, 2007 at 1:44 am

PZ left the word gullible out, it should read ... a nation of gullible uneducated morons. Its the American dream folks, come on people wake up!!

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14. Comment #49447 by kinkazzo on June 12, 2007 at 2:06 am

Hey, I'm not American (actually, I'm an Italo-Australian Jew -- talk about biological soup!) but I really am getting worried about all these Gallups...
If the U.S. are the "greatest nation in the world" and the most powerful after the end of the Soviets, then we're in the dung!
To think we are in the 21st century, and this utterly technologised overproductive capitalist digitized macdonaldized nation has a majority represented by imbecilic creationist Christians makes my hair stand on end while recollecting past disastrous achievements by similarly imbecilic Christians.

But I'm continuously reminded of the hilarious Proof No. 41 (from godlessgeeks.com) quoted by Richard in his THE GOD DELUSION:

"God loves you. How could you be so heartless as not to believe in Him? Therefore God exists."

Great, simply great! I feel better already.

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15. Comment #49448 by Macque on June 12, 2007 at 2:10 am

As an Englishman, I was absolutely stunned when I spent a couple of weeks touring through Kentucky, South Carolina, Ohio and Tennessee. I had no idea just how fundamental and all-pervasive religion was in America. I found it deeply concerning that a country which claimed to be one of the most advanced on the planet was suffering from such medieval levels of social education. I had gone to the so called bible-belt purely on a whim. I befriended many people there and was fortunate enough to be invited to the house of a lady I met there, to meet her family and friends. The topic of religion came up and they seemed shocked that I was an atheist. We discussed religion for awhile and, armed with many RD quotes and a grasp of natural selection, I believe I managed to convince them I wasn't the Antichrist. I may have even convinced them as to the logical grounding of evolution as opposed to creationism.
Hailing from a country where religion is now, especially among so-called Christians, seen as more of a hobby, the fervent belief in god I witnessed in normal people in America was very surprising indeed. This has made me appreciate the work of RD et al much more.
I realise this is somewhat off-topic, but I would like to say kudos to those American atheists who are living under the blanket of dogmatic ignorance and the Bush administration. Don't give up. Education is the only way forward.
As a sidenote I would like to thank those people in Kentucky who invited an atheist into their home despite the ever-present threat of hell fire being rained down upon them.

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16. Comment #49449 by pewkatchoo on June 12, 2007 at 2:15 am

Beachbum said:
"Remember Bush Sr.,"Read my lips!". We did. And while we were reading, he stuck it to us."

Yes, but to be fair he was misquoted. I am sure that what he actually said was "Read my lips! No new faxes."

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17. Comment #49451 by Macque on June 12, 2007 at 2:17 am

I would just like to add that attacking the Bush administration is something we atheist should try to avoid.
Just as RD refuses to debate creationists, we should try to avoid mentioning Bush, as acknowledging his existence will give him credence he would otherwise lack.
If we ignore him, he may go away...

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18. Comment #49460 by steve99 on June 12, 2007 at 2:50 am

Al Gore is a creationist

No, he isn't.

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19. Comment #49467 by Roy_H on June 12, 2007 at 3:15 am

But you know, God sends messages to sinners in all walks of life! ( Talk about a publicity stunt! )
Jail term was a message from God, says Paris Hilton

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070611/ten-entertainment-crime-9700fcb_2.html

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20. Comment #49491 by CJ22 on June 12, 2007 at 5:08 am

"If This Goes On..."
~Robert A. Heinlein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_This_Goes_On

1940!

"Secrecy is the keystone of all tyranny. Not force, but secrecy ... [sic] censorship. When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Other Comments by CJ22

21. Comment #49493 by Dr Benway on June 12, 2007 at 5:46 am

MIND_REBEL:

Al Gore is a creationist

As Dawkins makes a distinction between the Einsteinian God and the God of scripture, so we ought to distinguish poetic creationism from literal creationism.

How to tell the difference: Poetic creationism is vague. No details given regarding when, how, etc. Atheists look stupid when they knee-jerk react to poetic creationism as if it were Biblical creationism.

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22. Comment #49497 by Dr Benway on June 12, 2007 at 6:25 am

From your link, Roy_H:

Hilton told Walters. "My spirit or soul did not like the way I was being seen and that is why I was sent to jail.

Don't listen to your silly, superficial soul, Paris. Go read a book.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

23. Comment #49498 by Quetzalcoatl on June 12, 2007 at 6:47 am

Leave Paris alone! She's in dire straits right now, not being able to moisturise regularly. Poor girl.

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24. Comment #49505 by blueollie on June 12, 2007 at 7:40 am

Since someone brought up Al Gore: he is well known for his concerns about global warming and the enviroment.

There are many right wing folks who are NOT concerned about the enviroment. Why? Because they are convinced that the "second coming" is near; therefore there is no need to worry about what happens in 100-200-300 years from now. No, I am not making this up.

This is changing somewhat
http://www.wie.org/j33/recycle.asp

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25. Comment #49506 by pewkatchoo on June 12, 2007 at 7:41 am

re Paris
I guess that she thinks she was visited by the lord while she was in jail. Note to Paris, just because a prison guard has a very big one does not make him god.

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26. Comment #49510 by RabbitDynamite on June 12, 2007 at 8:01 am

Something to take a little heart in at least:

of the 66% who declared creationism "true", 27% said it was only "probably" true. As I see it, that's 27% that will can be chipped away at as the Behes of the world are laughed off.

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27. Comment #49512 by 3legcat on June 12, 2007 at 8:12 am

How to tell the difference: Poetic creationism is vague. No details given regarding when, how, etc. Atheists look stupid when they knee-jerk react to poetic creationism as if it were Biblical creationism.

i agree, but we rarely encounter the hovinds, usually it brownbacks

is there a difference between liberal creationists like hedges/gore vs brownback/huckabee, really?

al gore says we are the stewards of the creation, while brownback says he knows we were created for a purpose (specifically stating that he did not know when or how)

i don't see the difference, personally. (sure i prefer one man to the other, but i recognize it is for reasons other than their deeply held beliefs)

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28. Comment #49516 by JesusH on June 12, 2007 at 8:33 am

Reposted from the same site :

>On the bright side, the average Republican presidential candidate is more likely to believe in evolution than the average Democratic voter.

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29. Comment #49548 by CJ on June 12, 2007 at 10:56 am

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

The chart that correlates the belief in evolution to church attendance looks to me like a classic mis-juxtaposition of two variables. There is a third factor related to both church attendance and belief in evolution that is not shown but is related to both. What I would like to have seen is the level and nature of the education and specifically the scientific education of the respondents and factored this into the equation.

Why is the chart a problem? Because, in my opinion, it fails to explain what is really happening. If you take the chart at face value if you stopped people attending church they would start to believe in evolution, conversely if you make people go to church they would stop believing in evolution.

While I like the results I really don't think they are much more than numbers for news sound-bite production.

Politicians use statistics in the same way a drunk uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination.

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30. Comment #49597 by ricey on June 12, 2007 at 1:55 pm

RJ's comment: 49548,

I agree with RJ; its not scientific research to (effectively) stand in front of, or outside a church with a clipboard and expect the congregation to state whether or not they beleive in god (or disbelieve in evolution, which to many faith-heads is the same question in reverse) and expect rational answers.

Ask the school kids, then correlate their responses to what's taught in their science class.

We can safely bet that ID students will have a different interpretation of evolution than students taught in a secular science classroom. Obvious, but central to the point.

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31. Comment #49604 by jshuey on June 12, 2007 at 2:28 pm

"Poetic creationism is vague. No details given regarding when, how, etc. Atheists look stupid when they knee-jerk react to poetic creationism as if it were Biblical creationism."

Horse feathers.

Just as ID has been described as "...creationism in a cheap tuxedo", "Poetic" creationism is the original pig in lipstick. Both attack the very essence of science and reason, and one seeming a bit more sophisticated than the other neither negates the potential damage nor excuses the base ignorance.

Other Comments by jshuey

32. Comment #49656 by jayalenik on June 12, 2007 at 7:25 pm

jshuey I agree

moderate christen/muslum/etc = poetic creationlsm
poetic even that rubs me wrong

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33. Comment #49737 by Science Goddess on June 13, 2007 at 7:38 am

To comment 49548:

CJ, what you say about juxtaposition of the variables is true. It's like saying the increase in autism (let' say) can be related to how many BMWs are purchased per year. (just a stupid example).

Having said that, more data is available from the nerds (in a good way) at Marginal Utility:
http://atbozzo.blogspot.com/2007/06/science-and-religion-2006-gss.html

Have fun!

SG

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34. Comment #49765 by rager on June 13, 2007 at 10:24 am

One thing is for sure. We like-minded atheists have got to stop yammering at each other on our blogs for a minute and start doing what Sam, Richard and Christopher are not only trying to do themselves but are imploring us to do--start a new Enlightenment. This will only happen if we find a way to step outside of our chat rooms and start making some real noise. As Hitch says in "god is not Great," "This Enlightenment will not need to depend, like its predecessors, on the heroic breakthroughs of a few gifted and exceptionally courageous people. It is within the compass of the average person."

One way or another, each of us has got to find his or her unique, rational voice and stop being afraid to make it heard. If we don't, this new Enlightenment will never happen and our country will continue to wallow in boneheaded, medieval nonsense. Doesn't the voice of reason and rationality have the right to be heard above the mind-numbing din of religious ignorance? Of course it does! We know that reason always trumps myth. We don't have to allow ourselves to be shushed by all the superstitious bullies who claim that their ever-virtuous faith is always beyond questioning.

A good place to start is a nice little site full of bumper stickers and more: http://rageonapage.com

Vive la Evolution!

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35. Comment #49813 by Nails on June 13, 2007 at 3:44 pm

7. Comment #49401 by BMMcArdle on June 11, 2007 at 8:02 pm

Asking someone if they believe something is a loaded question, suggesting that it is a matter of belief, instead of something that is quite factual. No one would think of asking someone if they believed in electricity or gravity.

But neither electricity or gravity is countered by biblical claims, and that is the problem.
This is why science books don't have stickers put on to tell you it is just a theory, not a fact - only biology books.

Anyway, i clicked on the rageonapage link and decided to look for the antichrist:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-antichrist.html
Total stupidity.
I can't believe that someone with the intelligence to turn on a computer could write such dross.
Examples:
Candidates for the antichrist:

Sun Myung Moon This leader of the Unification Church openly claims to be the Messiah. Moon recently was sent to jail for tax evasion. Jesus, by having a tax collector on His staff, didn't suffer from tax problems. You pick which one was the smarter Messiah.

Yeah, so smart he let himself be caught and tortured....

Barney the Dinosaur Because John, the writer of Revelation, would never have known what a dinosaur looked like, it's logical to assume he would have identified any vision of Barney as one of a dragon. Taking this into consideration, you might find the following Scriptures quite revealing: Revelation 12:3, "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon…,"
Revelation 13:4, "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"
Revelation 20:2, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."

WTF? and how would anyone 2000 years ago have known what a dragon looked like?
How the hell could anyone consider a child's toy to be the bloody antichrist!!!

Bill Gates If the beast needs to be computer literate and financially well-off, then Bill Gates is a good candidate.

So what exactly has Bill done wrong then?
Donated huge amounts (was it $50bn) to charity?
Yeah, real satanic stuff that.
Losers.

Other Comments by Nails

36. Comment #49884 by JemyM on June 14, 2007 at 2:34 am

Nails wrote:
WTF? and how would anyone 2000 years ago have known what a dragon looked like?


My theory is that it was thanks to dinosaur skeletons. People found them and assumed they were dead dragons. That's why the dragon myth is pretty much global.

Other Comments by JemyM

37. Comment #50038 by JRG on June 14, 2007 at 4:27 pm

For those of you taking shots at Paris Hilton, an article by Mr. Hitchens:

http://www.slate.com/id/2168128/nav/ais/

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38. Comment #50290 by IainM on June 16, 2007 at 1:18 pm

pewkatchoo, your comment #49449 gave me belly laugh.

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39. Comment #52120 by stephenray on June 26, 2007 at 8:09 am

In response to Comment #50038 by JRG:

Hitchens is mistaken. Hilton wasn't in jail for a trivial act, she was in jail for disobeying a court order. That's a big no-no in any country with the rule of law. She claims that she didn't realise that the order was still in effect, but that won't cut any ice either. If anyone subject to a court order could escape responsibility by asserting that they were too dumb to understand it, might as well not bother with courts in the first place.

I'm with Hitchens, however, in bemoaning the fact that it's the same nasty media that is glorying in her misery that thrust her in our faces at every opportunity over the last few years, and no doubt will again when she re-emerges.

I'm also with him that, in the end, any thinking person will find themselves talking about Paris Hilton only while simultaneously wondering "Who cares?"

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40. Comment #66681 by hakija on August 30, 2007 at 11:50 pm

I left the Republican Party mainly because of the Christian Right. I was a GOP activist for many years as well, and have watched the gradual takeover of the party by fundamentalists through organizations like "Reclaiming America for Christ". I found myself to be increasingly among unlike minds who loathe science, love Ann Coulter and link evolution to communism and atheism to treason. I'd had it.

I've been a happy Independent since January. Being on the outside looking in to the GOP, I see more clearly the cancer of fundamentalism I once discounted.

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