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Thursday, June 21, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document An Inquisition in science's name

by Preston Manning

Reposted from the Globe and Mail, Toronto

Preston Manning imagines what one 17th-century cardinal would tell an eminent atheist

Dear Prof. Dawkins:

I am writing to you as one who was once as convinced as you are that I understood the nature of reality and how it was best interpreted. Like you, I also regarded those who embraced alternative conceptions of reality as dangerously deluded, and did everything in my power to prevent their further propagation.

Unfortunately, in pursuing this course of action, my colleagues and I made a grievous mistake - a mistake that, in the end, seriously discredited ourselves, our conception of reality and the organizations through which we advanced and defended it.

I am writing this letter in the sincere hope of dissuading you, the author of The God Delusion, and your colleagues - scientists and atheists, as I believe you describe yourselves - from repeating our mistake and thereby inadvertently discrediting the methods and institutions of science.

My name is Robert Bellarmine. I was born in Tuscany in 1542 and joined the Jesuit order in 1560. Like you, I became a professor at a leading university. I specialized in theology, then considered "the queen of sciences," much like biology is becoming the queen of sciences in your century. Eventually I was summoned to Rome by the Pope and made a cardinal and archbishop.

The conception of reality to which I, along with the most highly educated people of our time, subscribed was that revealed by faith and scripture as interpreted by the Holy Catholic Church.

We regarded our definition and interpretation of truth as a sacred trust that we were obliged to promote and defend. But notwithstanding our control of higher education, our authority was increasingly challenged by those who claimed there were alternative routes to truth.

Like you, we at first regarded the proponents of these views as deluded and sought to counteract their influence by teaching and persuasion. It was at this point, however, we made our great mistake.

When these delusions continued to spread in number and variety, we felt obliged to take harsher measures. We labelled the deviants "heretics." We established the Office of the Inquisition to hunt them down and expose the fraudulence of their claims, and to sentence them to the most extreme penalties if they refused to recant. We burned their books and then we burned the heretics themselves.

With the passage of time, we no longer confined our pursuit of heresy to the obviously ignorant and deluded. We extended it far and wide - I myself even became involved in the trial for heresy of the eminent astronomer Galileo Galilei.

What was our great mistake? It was to assume that we the church had an absolute monopoly on how truth was to be defined, discovered, and interpreted; to ignore the teaching of the great apostle of our own faith that at best, "we see through a glass darkly" and can only "know in part, and prophesy in part"; to believe that we had the right, not simply to fight perceived error through teaching and persuasion, but also to curtail and deny the freedom and liberties of those whose experience and perceptions differed from our own.

I realize, of course, that you - as a professor and educator - would never personally participate in the suppression of the rights and freedoms of those whom you regard as deluded on these matters, and would rather seek to turn them from the error of their ways by persuasion and education.

But it seems to me that some of your more zealous colleagues and disciples may be less tolerant and prudent than yourself. For example, does not Sam Harris (author of The End of Faith) display disturbing signs of the inquisitorial temperament that would deny freedom of conscience and expression to those whose positions cannot be scientifically tested and validated?

A modern Inquisition conducted in the name of science to root out what you call "the mind virus of religion" would naturally have access to much more subtle and sophisticated technologies than were available to us. Whereas we employed fire (literally), you have access to firewalls and anti-virus software that conceivably could relegate most correspondence and written communications infected with the God virus to the cultural trash bin. I worry, however, that, once unleashed, the Inquisitional temperament will go too far and end up discrediting the very truths and institutions it purports to defend.

And when you suggest "maybe some children need to be protected from [religious] indoctrination by their own parents," I worry you may be straying down the same authoritarian path we once trod.

In Canada, for example, where you are lecturing this week, the most spiritual members of the population are aboriginal peoples. Many profess to believe something "spiritual" resides not only in every human, but also in animals, rocks, and trees - by your lights, an unscientific notion.

But to suggest their children should be taken away from them and re-educated in some sort of scientific residential schools would be to make a grievous mistake - exactly the same mistake we once made.

I conclude by suggesting that the proponents of faith and the proponents of science should agree on at least one vital point: The rights of human beings to freedom of conscience and expression should never again nor in the future be abrogated in the name of either faith or science. Do you agree?

Yours respectfully,

Cardinal Robert Bellarmine
(1542-1621) became a cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church in 1599 and an archbishop in 1602.

Preston Manning is president and CEO of the Manning Centre for Building Democracy.

Comments 1 - 50 of 125 |

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1. Comment #51057 by arildno on June 21, 2007 at 10:08 am

What an ignorant fool.
How DARE he put unevidenced dogma on par with truths carefully found out by evaluating masses of evidence?

The writer is evidently totally ignorant of what science is.

Other Comments by arildno

2. Comment #51059 by krogercomplete on June 21, 2007 at 10:19 am

I conclude by suggesting that the proponents of faith and the proponents of science should agree on at least one vital point: The rights of human beings to freedom of conscience and expression should never again nor in the future be abrogated in the name of either faith or science. Do you agree?


I think we can probably ditch the first part of the article and just keep this last quote.

Other Comments by krogercomplete

3. Comment #51062 by PeterK on June 21, 2007 at 10:29 am

Oh so THIS was the article RD was referring to at the IdeaCity Conference in Toronto on Wednesday, but eventually didn't get around to explaining what it's contents were.

The writer thinks he is being so clever in just basically saying that old and tired tu quoque parallel "You (Dawkins--new atheists, et al..) are no different than the fundamentalists are"

It's really becoming quite pathetic.

Other Comments by PeterK

4. Comment #51063 by OhioAtheist on June 21, 2007 at 10:30 am

 avatarWhat ignorant nonsense. As though Dawkins' and Harris's criticisms of religion were prefacing a Final Solution to the Religious Problem. Articles like these make me wonder why exactly the religious are so insecure. As AC Grayling has pointed out, it is truly remarkable that six books have the religious feeling like they're under genocidal assault.

Cardinal Bellarmine, in any case, needs to crawl back to his primitive, pre-scientific, irrational, benighted, religiously dominated Dark Age.

Other Comments by OhioAtheist

5. Comment #51064 by tieInterceptor on June 21, 2007 at 10:33 am

 avatarthis article brings images to my mind of a cornered faith head trying to write his way out of extinction...

we must be really hitting a nerve.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

6. Comment #51065 by Kervinator on June 21, 2007 at 10:34 am

 avatarFor those who don't know, Preston Manning (who's father, Ernest, was Premier of Alberta for many years) was the original Reform Party of Canada leader, who lost out to Stockwell Day (another religious type) when the party morphed into the Canadian Alliance Party, which then merged with the Conservatives, now the ruling party in Canada, with Stephen Harper as Prime Minister. We are very fortunate that someone so religious never got to rule in Canada (unlike the USA). Comparing science to the inquisition is absolutely ridiculous, laughable and has hurt his reputation (whatever he had left).

Other Comments by Kervinator

7. Comment #51067 by Robert Maynard on June 21, 2007 at 10:45 am

 avatarThere are yawning chasms of silliness here that I'm sure others will pounce on with reliable passion - for my part I think the critical misstep is this:
What was our great mistake? It was to assume that the church had an absolute monopoly on how truth was to be defined
I actually think a bigger problem in their thinking was assuming that 'redemption' could not be facilitated in a way that didn't end in execution. Conversation is all a good idea ever needs to spread - good ideas are contagious. The ideas atheists are criticising are demonstrably bad, because they can barely stand on their own merits.

Our world is driven forward by technology - ideas to alleviate suffering, and ideas to support our ponderous bulk as a species on this planet. If we stop anytime soon we'll die out fairly quickly. Persistent scientific illiteracy in this world can only lead one down a path of economic and intellectual impoverishment and obsolescence.

So if one is intent on looking for a parallel to the 16th century Inquisition in the 21st century, they need look no further then our global marketplace of ideas. Agents in the market that disagree with the highly useful and insightful findings of science, will be dealt with most coldly, by an indifferent market that gorges itself on innovation and discourse.

It's by no means a clever or an insightful parallel - it makes it sound like we must toil against our will in service of these wonderful ideologies of progress, lest we be tortured - when in fact it is a highly rewarding process we as a species are compelled to participate in - but that's what happens when you're stretching a lousy parallel.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

8. Comment #51068 by edge100 on June 21, 2007 at 10:47 am

Thanks Kervinator for telling everyone a little more about Preston Manning; I was about to when I saw your post.

We are indeed fortunate that Preston always showed his true colours, unlike our current bozo PM who will keep it all locked inside until the fateful day he wins a majority (thank Zeus for the Liberal-dominated Senate).

Unfortunately, it would appear that while we Canadians like to think of ourselves as more in tune with reality than our neighbours to the south, things might not be as rosy as one might think (blatent plug alert):

http://propterhoc.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/stupidityclose-to-home/

Other Comments by edge100

9. Comment #51069 by pewkatchoo on June 21, 2007 at 10:50 am

 avatarGreat satire. Where is it from, the Onion?

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

10. Comment #51070 by edge100 on June 21, 2007 at 10:55 am

Great satire. Where is it from, the Onion?


If only...if only.

Other Comments by edge100

11. Comment #51071 by Pete_C on June 21, 2007 at 11:06 am

"Whereas we employed fire (literally), you have access to firewalls and anti-virus software that conceivably could relegate most correspondence and written communications infected with the God virus to the cultural trash bin."

I am imagining Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens gleefully cackling in a command center paneled with giant monitors displaying routes of global communications they are blocking with their FIREWALLS!

Other Comments by Pete_C

12. Comment #51075 by Billb on June 21, 2007 at 11:12 am

This one got me really angry. Theology is not a science, period. To make an arguement against science and the scientific method using theology is absurd. The problem with theology is it had no ground to stand on. That was the mistake Cardinal Bellamine. Biology has a solid ground to stand on, peer review, observation and experiment.Any mistakes in knowledge will be modified.

Other Comments by Billb

13. Comment #51076 by Jack Rawlinson on June 21, 2007 at 11:14 am

 avatarDear Mr Manning,

I am writing to you as one who was once as convinced as you are that I understood the nature of reality and how it was best interpreted. Like you, I also regarded those who embraced alternative conceptions of reality as dangerously deluded, and did everything in my power to prevent their further propagation. I wish therefore to suggest that you are more-or-less like me, that your beliefs are more-or-less like mine, and that the actions likely to result from your beliefs are more-or-less the same as those which resulted from mine.

Yours sincerely

A. Hitler

PS: boy, are you dumb.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

14. Comment #51077 by thirdchimpanzee on June 21, 2007 at 11:20 am

Preston Manning comes from the Canadian "Bible Belt" - Alberta, along with fellow faith-heads Stephen Harper and Stockwell Day.

Its hard to say whether ignorance or politics is at work in the persistent attempts to categorise scientific reasoning as just another belief system. What can be said about his pathetic analogy is that the "truths" being suppressed by the Inquisition were those that might challenge the Church's official delusions. The Church really wasn't interested in any objective truth whatsoever (like the direct observation of another "solar system" orbiting Jupiter), only the maintenance of power and wealth.

That common sense and rationality prevailed in North Western Europe is the reason we're able to communicate on this thread a mere 400 years later. What the Catholic Church was trying to suppress was independent, rational inquiry - the direct opposite of the intent of the contemporary secularists.

I suppose psychologists can better explain why delusional people assume everyone else is equally delusional, but there's a simple test that any honest person might consider.

Imagine a day in a modern economy where you could peer into the activities of everyone in that economy - farmers, physicians, nurses, pilots, petroleum geologists, scientists, automobile workers etc. During the course of their working day they might consult books or the internet to find some answers or insights to their tasks. How many of them will be turning to a Bible, or Quran or other religious text for this purpose? NONE - or at least nobody that deserves to stay in their job.

This is what proponents of the equality of "religious truth" and "scientific truth" want to totally ignore - that in the real world nobody gets their direction for doing non-social work (i.e. work other than counselling others) from religious sources. Today's successful farmer doesn't put seed in the ground and pray for rain - he/she consults weather forecasts, market forecasts and scientific analysis of their soils to decide what to plant and when. In the contest between science and religion - people know where to put their time and money. The religious communities in Canada and the US should be honest enough to acknowledge this reality - and stop trying these facile exercises in equivalence between science and religion.

Other Comments by thirdchimpanzee

15. Comment #51079 by nrvous on June 21, 2007 at 11:30 am

 avatar
I am writing to you as one who was once as convinced as you are that I understood the nature of reality and how it is best interpreted.


Is it just me, or is that the hardest sentence to read in the history of the written word? He certainly doesn't understand the nature of good writing.

Other Comments by nrvous

16. Comment #51080 by jonecc on June 21, 2007 at 11:38 am

There is a real issue with children growing up in religious households. I don't think anyone sensible has suggested perfectly good parents should have their children taken away just because they tell them unprovable metaphysical statements are true, but it is necessary to establish the principle that pluralist education for children is a civil right.

We might also want to consider whether physical modification of a child for non-medical reasons is acceptable.

Other Comments by jonecc

17. Comment #51081 by Donald on June 21, 2007 at 11:40 am

Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (aka Preston Manning): "Unfortunately, in pursuing this course of action, my colleagues and I made a grievous mistake - a mistake that, in the end, seriously discredited ourselves, our conception of reality and the organizations through which we advanced and defended it."

Yep, and you are still doing it.

"I am writing this letter in the sincere hope of dissuading you, the author of The God Delusion, and your colleagues - scientists and atheists, as I believe you describe yourselves - from repeating our mistake.."

Don't worry, old chap, we haven't and we won't. But thanks for acknowledging that RD isn't making your mistake.


And since you are a politician, perhaps this would be a good moment to point out that our dispute with religions and the religious is not only about beliefs. Anyone can believe about in fairies, spirits of rocks and trees, or whatever, if they must. It's about power and who has the right to dictate what is taught to children. You want to implant into children a belief that there is a god, plus a belief that you know what "god" wants us to do, which in turn, gives you and your ilk a power base from which to control and dictate important social and political decisions.

You misunderstand science profoundly if you think that is another belief system on a par with religion. Science is based on enquiry, continually accumulating evidence, and is a living, growing, body of knowledge in a way that "god did it" can never be.

We want to implant into young children a fair-minded summary of what science has established beyond reasonable doubt (earth goes round sun, evolution, etc) and as they get older, encourage a spirit of enquiry that will enable them to adapt to the discoveries and circumstance of the future, instead of shackling them to beliefs and dogma that belong in the graveyard.

Other Comments by Donald

18. Comment #51082 by blueollie on June 21, 2007 at 11:41 am

Ok, I'll attempt to treat this article seriously.

Two huge differences:

1) we aren't attempting to kill anyone or to restrict anyone's right to present their views.

2) our, ok, MY position is this: "I see no evidence for the existance of a deity and I only accept what I have evidence for" and "we don't know all of the answers but are continuing with our search". That is very different from saying "we know the absolute truth".

Why is that so hard to understand?

Other Comments by blueollie

19. Comment #51083 by konquererz on June 21, 2007 at 11:49 am

 avatarBlueollie, I completely agree and was going to write the same thing. Manning fails completely in this analogy to include and remember that the inquisition wasn't about changing peoples mind, and giving them information to make a free decision, it involved killing for not believing! Subtle difference but I think most of us will see it.

As well, since when is it dogma because I don't believe in something I can't see, hear, feel, taste, or touch? There is at least as much evidence of the Christian god as there is for every other god out there in every religion. Nuff said!

Other Comments by konquererz

20. Comment #51084 by mdowe on June 21, 2007 at 11:50 am

 avatarThis is the Preston Manning that once led the Party that has (after some treachery and a name change) become the minority ruling party in Canada? Scary. I'm beginning to worry that we might be a lot closer to a "Bush-North" that I had previously suspected.

Other Comments by mdowe

21. Comment #51085 by Bonzai on June 21, 2007 at 12:07 pm

 avatarOh Presto Manning is as insufferable as ever. I can hear his complaining, whiny voice ringing in my ears. The whole article is one big strawman argument. Where did Dawkins or any "militant atheist" even hint at burning religious people at the stake? Where did they propose that faith heads should be sent to re education camp? Where did they even suggest that religious people should be fired from their jobs?

Attacking ideas is not an "inquisition". Once again the pious are projecting their own mindset onto atheists and atheism.

Manning is a crackpot whose two most prominant faiths are Jesus and the self sustaining "free market". Since being booed off the political stage rather unceremonously he has been a "research fellow" of the Fraser Instititue, a right wing economical think tank notorious for cooking data and sloppy research. Now this semi coherent rant. Does any one know if Manning is a creationist?

P.S. I know this is stupid but boy Manning for some reason always makes me think of eunuchs


Other Comments by Bonzai

22. Comment #51086 by AlanF on June 21, 2007 at 12:10 pm

Preston Manning's complaint is typical of religious people who know their ideas haven't a leg to stand on, but want others to put their faith on a pedestal -- which is precisely what Dawkins is arguing against.

In many years of arguing for rationality on various online forums, I've seen this complaint many times: "You're not allowing me freedom of expression!" This virtually always comes up when arguing with irrational fundamentalists about evolution versus creation, irrational UFOlogists, and so forth. They automatically equate reasoned, devastating criticism with suppression.

Manning is quite wrong when he claims that the Church's biggest mistake was to "was to assume that we the church had an absolute monopoly on how truth was to be defined, discovered, and interpreted." On the contrary, the Church's biggest mistake was to think that it was God's executioner and to kill people who disagreed with its "monopoly on truth". Atheists and the science community are under no such delusions about themselves, and are obviously not able or even inclined to do what the Church did.

Manning concludes by asking Dawkins if he agrees that "the rights of human beings to freedom of conscience and expression should never again nor in the future be abrogated in the name of either faith or science." Obviously, Dawkins and other atheists and members of the science community agree. But it's equally obvious that any religious organization or movement that gains enough political power will indeed do everything it can to abrogate freedom of conscience and expression in the name of its god. The situation here in the U.S. with the abominably religious Bush administration is a case in point. The Catholic Church, despite its pretensions of tolerance, demonstrates regularly that wherever it has political influence, it tries to enforce its religious doctrine on the populace. Mexico is a good example of the latter.

Other Comments by AlanF

23. Comment #51087 by Bookman on June 21, 2007 at 12:14 pm

This idiot was the mentor of the current idiot in the Prime Minister's office, Stephen Harper, and the two hold the same fundamentalist Xtian beliefs. 75% of the MPs on the government benches are evangelical Christians. They have learned to keep quiet about it, through experience, and I don't think they will try anything too crazy unless, or until, they get a majority government. They are both from the province where a Creationist museum just opened up -- a bit ironic considering that Alberta is the home of Albertosaurus and some of the best fossil fields in the world.

Other Comments by Bookman

24. Comment #51088 by Bonzai on June 21, 2007 at 12:25 pm

 avatar
a bit ironic considering that Alberta is the home of Albertosaurus and some of the best fossil fields in the world.


Not at all ironic. It is only fitting that Manning and his disciples should come from the land of the dinosaurs.

Other Comments by Bonzai

25. Comment #51090 by BicycleRepairMan on June 21, 2007 at 12:32 pm

 avatarWhat a moron, whats really sad is that this probably sounds convincing to faith-heads.

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

26. Comment #51091 by Bonzai on June 21, 2007 at 12:33 pm

 avatarPreston Manning wrote as Mr. Hat:

But it seems to me that some of your more zealous colleagues and disciples may be less tolerant and prudent than yourself. For example, does not Sam Harris (author of The End of Faith) display disturbing signs of the inquisitorial temperament that would deny freedom of conscience and expression to those whose positions cannot be scientifically tested and validated?


Freedom of expression means you can say whatever you want but it doesn't require others to listen to your tripes respectifully. If it is garbage that comes out of your mouth it is not a violation of your right to free speech to point that out, and to mercilessly laugh at your stupidity.

Manning and those who think like him basically want stupid speech to be not only protected, but respected and revered as long as it is "religion". What balony.

Other Comments by Bonzai

27. Comment #51092 by thirdchimpanzee on June 21, 2007 at 12:33 pm

I have to say that in over 30 years of living in North America (Canada/USA) I really cannot recall a period like the one we're witnessing where religion is being so publicly challenged, and the likes of Manning and Brownback feel obliged to try and match wits with the unbelievers.

Something is afoot...

Other Comments by thirdchimpanzee

28. Comment #51094 by TIKI AL on June 21, 2007 at 12:36 pm

By his own admission this Manning character has claimed to have communicated with the dead. He could be dangerous and may even be a warlock.

Manning must be dragged to the nearest pond and be tested for flotation/redemption.

I pray to God he swiftly sinks for his own sake.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

29. Comment #51096 by D'Arcy on June 21, 2007 at 12:50 pm

 avatarIt's good to have someone like Manning masquerading as a 16th century cardinal, putting his view against atheism so that he can be answered. "Answered" may be the wrong word because he presents nothing positive, he only warns against being over confident of knowing the "truth". No fear of that, Preston, we admit that there's loads of stuff we don't know ... yet. But as Manning's cardinal probably denied Galileo's sun spots as being real and an example of heresy, he's hardly the best guy to be warning Dawkins of being over confident.

If as other messages have said, Manning is a Catholic, then he's one who believes in the infalibilty of the Pope, whoever the Pope happens to be. So rather than being one who looks at the world sceptically, Manning is one who believes what he is told as long as it comes from the Pope. Sorry mate who are you to question anything that conflicts with what God's representative on Earth has said.

The "truths" of modern science of course change in accordance with the observations. With dark energy, we now have a universe that is falling upwards instead of downwards. Its a new challenge for science but not one that will undermine the scientific method.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

30. Comment #51099 by mmurray on June 21, 2007 at 1:03 pm

 avatarThis is so stupid for so many reasons. Not least of these is that the Inquisition's problem wasn't that it felt it had the only truth but that it felt it had to torture and kill those who disagreed with it. Had they just written books, posted on web sites and appeared on TV an unimaginable toll of human suffering would have been avoided.

I find something deeply offensive about using the Inquisition in this flippant manner. It's an insult to the memories of all the people who suffered and died. Just because it was hundreds of years ago doesn't meant they felt the pain any less at the time. If Bellarmine was alive today he would be in the International Court of Justice in the Hague charged with crimes against humanity not writing letters to Dawkins.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

31. Comment #51101 by Insightful Ape on June 21, 2007 at 1:26 pm

Dear Mr. Manning,
I had a personal encounter with Dawkins. Like you, I did not, and do not, have a positive opinion of him.
During that encounter, I used language that resembled yours closely; in fact, like you, I told him that he could be right or wrong, and he might find out later, but he should not be arrogant.
Today, however, the whole world knows that I was the arrogant, cynical, hypocrite one, not Dawkins.
As a person who has already been there and done that, I would advise you to watch your step, not to repeat my mistakes.

Respectfully yours,
Ted Haggard

Other Comments by Insightful Ape

32. Comment #51102 by Lauregon on June 21, 2007 at 1:26 pm

Many profess to believe something "spiritual" resides not only in every human, but also in animals, rocks, and trees - by your lights, an unscientific notion. - Preston Manning


Perhaps Mr Manning doesn't realize that people who've held such animistic beliefs have been found by believers of his "lights" to be pagans and heathens, and as such, as subjects to be converted to the One True Faith by one evil means or other even worse ones. Or, is Mr Manning suggesting that animism is now part of Christian orthodoxy?

Other Comments by Lauregon

33. Comment #51103 by Duff on June 21, 2007 at 1:30 pm

Through this whole silly letter I'm thinking, "what a maroon, this cartoon from Saskatoon, what a maroon"! Alright, so its Alberta.

Other Comments by Duff

34. Comment #51105 by nancy2001 on June 21, 2007 at 1:33 pm

This article is hogwash.

Other Comments by nancy2001

35. Comment #51106 by justme on June 21, 2007 at 1:40 pm

 avatarI'll give him one compliment: He didn't compare Richard and Sam to either Communists or Nazis.

Other than that, he entirely misses the point, and throws in ideas that nobody has proposed simply to satirize them. Simply dishonest.

Other Comments by justme

36. Comment #51107 by pissinintothewind on June 21, 2007 at 1:40 pm

Outstanding! A true prodigy. Mr Manning is a credit to the religious minded. The use of his imagination goes way beyond the fundamentalist christian norm and exposed like this the similarity between the 16th century roman catholic church and the 21st century Atheist movement is uncanny. As for the next four centuries I predict they will start banging rocks together.

Other Comments by pissinintothewind

37. Comment #51110 by waxwings on June 21, 2007 at 1:59 pm

 avatarCount on the religious apologist to introduce the chilling specter of totalitarianism, torture, and oppression into any critical discussion about religion.

I know of no advocate of reasoned discourse who suggest the sort of things this fellow insinuates, yet I am well familiar with the rich historical precedent of them offered by religion. And I cannot help but notice that the very ideas of violence, totalitarianism and oppression originated not from Dawkins, but the good 'Cardinal'.

Did anyone else detect the threatening tone of this piece? The language, the word choice, the structure all seemed to carry an underlying message, almost a challenge: just try it, atheists, and see what kind of fight you're in for. Let's not pause on the path to violence for a civilized discussion.

What a pity religiosity is so appealing to the aggressive, authoritarian sorts who peer at the world through glasses tinted with intense hostility and distrust for their fellow men.

Other Comments by waxwings

38. Comment #51112 by waxwings on June 21, 2007 at 2:01 pm

 avatarI feel that Prof. Dawkins should respond to this article, personally.

Other Comments by waxwings

39. Comment #51114 by Dr Benway on June 21, 2007 at 2:08 pm

 avatarMr. Manning, does your mother know you play with strawmen? Naughty, naughty!

Seriously, if this guy is retarded, then I'm impressed. If he's as smart as he seems to think he is, then he needs a spanking. It's rude to poop out strawmen in public like this.

Oh, and this little utterly useless history lesson is just awesome: Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621) became a cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church in 1599 and an archbishop in 1602.

Dood must get all the pussy he wants.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

40. Comment #51115 by D'Arcy on June 21, 2007 at 2:18 pm

 avatar
I specialized in theology, then considered "the queen of sciences,"


If theology was the queen of sciences, maybe we should forget about the theology and the monarchy and just keep the sciences.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

41. Comment #51116 by Scott McMeekin on June 21, 2007 at 2:23 pm

 avatarProfound apologies for swinging wildly off topic at a tangent, but there's no time to post to design@richarddawkins.net.

Apparently Christopher Hitchens and his brother (?) will be on Question Time tonight at 10:35pm (21Jun07) on BBC1. Should anyone have the ability to record it and upload it to Youtube (or Josh T. - I dunno if he actually hosts video here), I'm sure the viewing public would appreciate it.

Cheers,

Scott.

PS - I just caught a quick promo for it, so if it turns out to be some other C.H, then sorry! =D

Other Comments by Scott McMeekin

42. Comment #51118 by freestateofmind on June 21, 2007 at 2:31 pm

 avatarThrough the months I have read the plethora of "criticisms" from theists and other supernaturalists. One word keeps popping in my mind as I read these critiques of RD, Harris, Dennett and Hitchens...the L word. No, not that L word, but L for LAME. Every single criticism is lame and screams out, "You nontheists are irritating us with these books against religion. You are voicing what we are scared to admit and don't want to be reminded about."

Other Comments by freestateofmind

43. Comment #51122 by hungover on June 21, 2007 at 2:48 pm

Why I ought to club him and eat his bones.

Other Comments by hungover

44. Comment #51123 by WeeWullie on June 21, 2007 at 2:52 pm

 avatarClearly someone who hasn't learned the REAL lesson from The Inquisition.

Other Comments by WeeWullie

45. Comment #51124 by Lagomort on June 21, 2007 at 2:56 pm

Yeah, the guy is onto us. No one here is about using empirical evidence as a means of figuring out how the world works instead of dogma. We all think we do know, and it is just our ideas against their ideas.

Thank God I can finally admit that...

Other Comments by Lagomort

46. Comment #51125 by ThomasB on June 21, 2007 at 2:57 pm

 avatar"Stupid" was not the first word that came to mind. I think it's crafty and will no doubt appeal to some of the most Catholic of believers.

Bellarmine has apparently not mended his ways as a monumental deceit sustains his missive. The Cardinal writes as though faith has learned its lesson in the 400 years since Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake. From the pool of influential people who presently act or speak "in the name of either faith or science", Bellarmine has chosen to scold a temperate Oxford professor who dares to question religion. The rhetorical coupling of faith and science is a willfully misleading construct because of course science does not share with religion a history of, or tendency towards, abrogating the rights and freedoms of those who see the world differently.

Since Mr. Manning has some sense of the evil of Cardinal Bellarmine's response to heresy (ca 1600 CE), I hope he will take the time to write the present-day leaders who sanction, in the name of faith, the kidnapping and conversion children to soldiers, mutilating the genitals of children, honour killing, flying planes into skyscrapers, and the blowing up the temples and practitioners of rival faiths.

While he's at it, Preston Manning might send a letter to the L'Osservatore Romano sharing his enlightened attitude towards traditional aboriginal beliefs. Only last month Pope Benedict XVI declared that "the proclamation of Jesus and of his Gospel did not at any point involve an alienation of the pre-Columbus cultures, nor was it the imposition of a foreign culture" because indeed the native South Americans were "silently longing" to become Christians when they were conquered.

Here in Canada our people of native ancestry continue to receive compensation payments for the horrendous abuses committed by Christian Brothers in government sponsored residential schools. In Manning's suggestion that now atheists pose some sort of threat towards aboriginal people there lies a very sad irony that is entirely at his expense.

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47. Comment #51128 by _J_ on June 21, 2007 at 3:29 pm

 avatarOFF TOPIC - RE: HITCHENS ON QUESTION TIME

43. Comment #51116 by Scott McMeekin

Apparently Christopher Hitchens and his brother (?) will be on Question Time tonight at 10:35pm (21Jun07) on BBC1.

Thanks for the reminder! I missed the first 10 minutes, in which Christopher Hitchens apparently had a lot to say. They were discussing the Rushdie honour. Hitchens made a couple of excellent points - one, in particular, about the foolishness and moral irresponsibility of viewing all Muslims in terms of their lunatic fringe minority.

On the other hand, Hitchens is a little bit in danger of alienating a lot of people who watch him just through the way he handles himself in debates - he looked sullen, and he sniped and interrupted frequently. (And anyone watching this who also remembers the Mother Theresa book might start to wonder if he just has some grudge against elderly ladies...) He wears his 'couldn't give a damn what you think' attitude well, but sometimes it's less than endearing and could prevent people from actually listening to his arguments. (And it can play into the hands of camera operators, show producers and interviewers who know the entertainment value of creating a good villain.)

However, as I said, he made one or two very strong points as I was watching and was as eloquent and controversial as ever. And I still like him.

Anyway, I've stopped watching before the end, because the show has become frustratingly hooked on a pointless cycle of unedifying speculation (often the way with Question Time) about Gordon Brown's Labour Party recruitment tactics. (Christopher Hitchens, in fact, fell completely silent for a long time and, when prodded, immediately confessed that he had no interest in the subject at all. He and I, both.)

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48. Comment #51130 by wardsie on June 21, 2007 at 3:35 pm

 avatarWell, I don't know guys and gals. I love hearing this kind of trash from pretentious fools who imagine that they have come across an original way to argue their point-of-view.

It all helps to promote the case for reason. And helps improve our abilities to find flaws in other people's arguments.

You know, logical expression wouldn't have sounding boards if everyone wrote like Dawkins and Harris.

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49. Comment #51132 by LeeLeeOne on June 21, 2007 at 3:43 pm

 avatarTo _J_:O"n the other hand, Hitchens is a little bit in danger of alienating a lot of people who watch him just through the way he handles himself in debates - he looked sullen, and he sniped and interrupted frequently."

mmmmmmm, me thinks a bit more "shaking" up is justified.

OUR question (meaning yours, mine, and every other anti-theis) is how will we respond? With support or baking down in fear of not placating the alleged "religious" majority.

Where's OUR voices?

Scream loudly and often! Show what anti-theism and what science have to offer!

Thanks to hitchens, dawkins, harris, darwin, hawkins, etc., (and tongue in cheek to those prominent theists who get our arses a movin')!

Clarity, honesty, no fluff... our teensy, tiny microscopic universe NEEDS MORE anti-theists, not those who attempt to gloss over or feebly attempt to appeal to the masses.

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50. Comment #51134 by Dr Benway on June 21, 2007 at 3:49 pm

 avatarDawkins:

Manning here. Quick summary of my earlier letter, case you missed it.

I say, "I was just like you once..." Very clever of me, for now I may insult you and no one will notice.

Strawman #1: I say you're "doing everything in your power" to oppress and suppress those who disagree with you.

Next I wrinkle my brow in concern for you. I'm like a nice big brother. Nice, but stern.

I give this warning: "Dawkins, you are in danger of discrediting the methods and institutions of science!"

This is probably as scary as it sounds. Look in the mirror, Dawkins. What do you see?

Oh no, it's Godzilla! You make the people want to run! Ahhhh!

But wait, there is more...

Theology (my thing) was once the "queen of sciences." Now read a bunch of amazing facts to know and share.

This is my point: I am like Mothra!

Godzilla thinks he knows so much. But he will learn. Mothra points to the way-back machine. Everyone sees a fuzzy picture of Mothra eating books and heretics. How awful!

Off topic: Mothra name drop "Galileo." Mothra get around.

Back on topic: Watch Mothra acting all smart. But no one loves Mothra. He is not sexy. Godzilla now should be getting the subtle implication of all this. Maybe Godzilla is feeling a little sad.

Good time for Mothra to cleverly flatter Godzilla by saying "Don't let Sam Harris have your Godzilla powers, for he cannot handle them!"

Mothra then change the subject abruptly.

Mothra says some nice things about the aboriginal peoples. Aboriginals are fond of animals, rocks and trees. They are not very sciency, but they are cool. Mothra knows about cool, even though his mom named him "Preston."

Strawman #2: Godzilla only likes science. He wants to take babies away from the poor indians so they don't learn any unscientific ideas. This is not cool!

Strawman #3: So, Godzilla, you stop abrogating everybody's freedom of conscience yet?

Hope this helps!

Fondly,

Preston

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