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Sunday, July 1, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document The new age of ignorance

by Tim Adams

Reposted from the Sunday Observer:
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/visualart/story/0,,2115681,00.html

We take our young children to science museums, then as they get older we stop. In spite of threats like global warming and avian flu, most adults have very little understanding of how the world works. So, 50 years on from CP Snow's famous 'Two Cultures' essay, is the old divide between arts and sciences deeper than ever?

Here we ask a celebrity panel to answer some basic scientific questions

It is an immutable law of nature that acute embarrassment can make a few short seconds last pretty much for ever. The longest two minutes of my life occurred in the company of James Watson, one half of the famous double act who discovered the double helix. I was interviewing Watson, then in his late seventies, at his lab in Cold Spring Harbor on Long Island. At one point, I referred blithely to the 'perfect simplicity' of his and Francis Crick's findings about the code of life.

Watson is a mischievous, famously prickly man and that phrase seemed to get under his skin. He raised an eyebrow. He sat back. He thought he would have some fun. Seeing as it was all so perfectly simple, he suggested, maybe I could briefly run through my understanding of DNA base pairing, say, or chromosome mapping.

What followed - a tangled, stuttering stream of consciousness reflecting distant O-level biology and recent half-understanding of Watson's brilliant books, punctuated with words like 'replication' and 'mutation' and meaning nothing much - gave new resonance to the notion of floundering.

Watson, resisting the temptation to laugh, correct or comment, simply moved on, having categorically established our respective levels of evolution. I can still cringe now at the brief pause that concluded my ill-judged aside on the significance of the genome.

Given that science informs so much of our culture, and so many of us have such patchy knowledge, it is surprising that such embarrassments are not routine. It's half a century since CP Snow put forward the idea of the 'Two Cultures', the intractable divide between the sciences and the humanities, first in an article in the New Statesman, then in a lecture series at Cambridge and finally in a book. Back then, Snow, who was both a novelist and a physicist, used to employ a test at dinner parties to demonstrate his argument.

'A good many times,' he suggested, 'I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice, I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold; it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: have you ever read a work of Shakespeare's?'

Fifty years on, and exponential scientific advance later, it seems unlikely that the response of dinner guests would be much different. I was reminded of Snow's test when reading the new book by Natalie Angier, science editor of the New York Times. Angier's book is called The Canon, and subtitled 'A Whirligig Tour of the Beautiful Basics of Science'. It is not a long book and it contains, as the title suggests, a breathless Baedeker of the fundamental scientific knowledge Angier believes is the minimum requirement of an educated person.

In many places, I found myself cringeing all over again. I've read a fair amount of popular science, tried to follow the technical arguments that underpin debates about global warming, say, or bird flu, listened religiously to Melvyn Bragg's In Our Time, but still I discovered large black holes in my elementary understanding of how our world works. Angier divides her book into basic disciplines - biology, chemistry, geology, physics and so on - and each chapter offers an animated essay on the current established thinking.

The result is the kind of science book you wish someone had placed in front of you at school - full of aphorisms that help everything fall into place. For geology: 'This is what our world is about: there is heat inside and it wants to get out.' For physics: 'Almost everything we've come to understand about the universe we have learned by studying light.' Along the way there are all sorts of facts that stick: 'You would have to fly on a commercial aircraft every day for 18,000 years before your chances of being in a crash exceeded 50 per cent', for example; or, if you imagined the history of our planet as a single 75-year human life span: 'The first ape did not arrive until May or June of the final year... and Neil Armstrong muddied up the Moon at 20 seconds to midnight.'

Angier also gives as clear an insight as I have read of CP Snow's culture-dividing Second Law of Thermodynamics, the law of entropy, the one that states that in any system inefficiency is inevitable and eventually overwhelming. 'Entropy,' Angier writes, 'is like a taxi passing you on a rainy night with its NOT IN SERVICE lights ablaze, or a chair in a museum with a rope draped from arm to arm, or a teenager.'

Entropy, unusable energy, leads to the law that states that everything in time must wear out, become chaotic, die. 'The darkest readings of the Second Law suggest that even the universe has a morphine drip in its vein,' Angier suggests, 'a slow smothering of all spangle, all spiral, all possibility.' No wonder CP Snow thought we should know about it.

For all of its infectious analogies and charged curiosity, the most telling fact about Angier's book is that it seems to have been written out of sheer desperation. It is something of a cry from the wilderness; impassioned, overwrought in places. It is written in the voice of someone who has spent her whole award-winning career evangelising about this amazing stuff and is facing up to the fact that most people have not even begun to 'get' any of it.

Angier's tipping point, the reason she came to write the book, was a decision made by her sister. When the second of her two children turned 13 the sister decided that it was time to let their membership lapse in two familiar family haunts: the science museum and the zoo. They were, the implication went, ready to put away childish things, ready to go to the theatre and the art gallery, places where there was none of this 'mad pinball pinging from one hands-on science exhibit to the next, pounding on knobs to make artificial earthquakes'. They had grown out of science.

Angier believes this idea - that science is something for kids - still pervades much of our thinking, and characterises the presentation of science in culture. Part of it is the notion that argues science is just a bunch of facts with no overarching coherence. Just as bad are the media, which insist on ghettoising science and serving it up as cliches: scientists as boffins, with permanent bad-hair days; science as controversy, always set up for polarised clashes with religion.

'Science is rather a state of mind,' Angier argues and, as such, it should inform everything. 'It is a way of viewing the world, of facing reality square on but taking nothing for granted.' It would be hard to argue that this state of mind was advancing across the globe. We no longer make and mend, so we no longer know how anything works.

One of Angier's interviewees, Andrew Knoll, a professor of natural history at Harvard's earth and planetary sciences department, suggests that 'the average American adult today knows less about biology than the average 10-year-old living in the Amazon, or the average American of 200 years ago'. I spoke to Angier to find out why she thought that this might be the case.

To some extent, she suggested, that was a political question. 'Here in the US we have had the last seven years of this administration which has made everything about the two-cultures divide seem worse.' But it is not just that. 'Newspapers are getting rid of all their science pages; they are jettisoning all their science staff. The feeling is people don't want to read it.'

The implications of this, and the resultant general scientific illiteracy, she believes, are possibly catastrophic. Forty-two per cent of Americans in a recent survey said they believed that humans had been on Earth since the beginning of time. 'A geophysicist friend suggests we are at a critical crossroads just like the start of the Renaissance,' Angier says, 'where you couldn't just leave reading and writing to the kings and priests anymore. Ordinary people have to keep up. In the world we live in, the new economy, you have to become scientifically literate or you will fall quickly from view.'

It is, apparently, not just America that does not want to hear this news. Foreign rights to Angier's book have been snapped up in auctions by publishers across Asia and Eastern Europe, 'countries that see themselves as the economic future', but she has not, for example, sold her book in the UK, a place, we might remember, where 20 per cent of people still believe that the Sun revolves around Earth. 'I tend to see that as a tiny little sign that some of these more aggressive competitive nations are more aware of what the future looks like,' Angier suggests.

She believes this persistent apathy in matters of science in America and Britain comes in part from a lack of interest in what the future might hold. 'In the 1960s, we had the space race, we had these world fairs and the whole idea of the future was very exciting. Science was something they wanted to be involved in.' You could hope that the apocalyptic panic that attends climate change, the front pages of floodwaters rising, might have a similar effect. 'Whatever you think of him, Al Gore has been great for science,' she says.

Angier's initiation into the 'beautiful basics' was brought about by a professor at the University of Michigan, who taught a 'physics of music' class. The walls between the two cultures came tumbling down every week. 'There were kids from the engineering and physics departments and then there were kids from the music departments. I was just in there on my own. But the way he brought us together was an extraordinary thing,' she recalls. 'Both groups were kind of ecstatic; this guy would get standing ovations at the end of every lecture. So I guess I saw that bridging that gap might be something to strive for in life in terms of engaging people.'

This kind of engagement, a sense of a bigger picture in science, its poetry and mystery, is no doubt all too rare. In a 2005 survey of British teenagers at school conducted by the exam board OCR, more than half said they thought science classes were 'boring', 'confusing' and 'difficult'. Just 7 per cent believed that scientists were 'cool' and when asked to pick out a famous scientist from a list including Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, a fair few chose Christopher Columbus.

Some of this Angier believes has to do with the way science is taught - 'I go through these science books for kids and they are so dull compared to the novels that children read... I think that you have to make it an epic journey, a narrative with heroes and villains, molecules engaging in this struggle for life.' A lot of it, however, is cultural, she believes. Numbers of students still studying science at 18 are falling in Britain and America, perhaps because we are becoming generally less motivated to address difficulty.

As a culture, we allow ourselves too many excuses. 'Western parents are quite comfortable saying their children have a predilection for art or for writing or whatever, and allow them just to pursue that. In the Asian education system, if you are not good at something, it's because you are lazy and you just have to work harder at it. Just because things are hard does not mean they are not worth doing.'

That idea of difficulty, I suggest, cannot really be helped in the States in particular, when all of the presidential candidates of one party stand up in televised debate and say they believe in 'intelligent design' and suggest that the world could well have been created by a bearded God a few thousand years ago. Angier laughs, somewhat bleakly.

'I see all that as a macho kind of posturing. It's like, I can believe the impossible: look, I can lift a tree! It is a Republican initiation ritual, like having a hook pulled through your cheek and not flinching.' But no, she concedes, it doesn't help much.

Some people would suggest that Natalie Angier's enlightenment utopia, in which everyone might one day agree on the fundamentals of the universe, the beautiful basics, is a false ideal; the mass has always believed in mumbo-jumbo. One of these people is John Brockman. Brockman has probably done more than anyone to break down CP Snow's cultural divide. He is the PT Barnum of popular science, a great huckster of ideas. In the Sixties, he hung out with John Cage and Andy Warhol, got an MBA and then made his first fortune selling psychedelia to corporations, turning on marketing executives with 'multikinetic happenings' and showing them how their profits could levitate.

These days, he acts as literary agent for many of the world's greatest minds, including Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Steven Pinker, and achieves for some of them the kind of publishing advances that it takes great mathematicians to compute. It is Brockman who invented the publishing market for quarks and quantum theory and black holes in the 1990s, and it is he who is behind the current boom in atheism. The universe may be infinite, but Brockman takes 15 per cent of it.

He also runs a kind of global online Royal Society called Edge. Edge promotes what he calls the Third Culture, a marriage of physics and philosophy, astronomy and art. The name itself derives from a phrase of CP Snow's outlining his personal hope for the future. Brockman, when launching his Third Culture in 1991, had significant ambition for the project, much of which has been realised. 'The Third Culture consists of those scientists and other thinkers in the empirical world who, through their work and expository writing, are taking the place of the traditional intellectual in rendering visible the deeper meanings of our lives, redefining who and what we are,' he suggested, grandly.

Though Brockman borrowed Snow's phrase, he did not employ it in the same way: Snow had hoped for a kind of detente between the rival mindsets; Brockman perceived a third way. 'Literary intellectuals are not communicating with scientists,' he suggested. 'Scientists are communicating directly with the general public. Traditional intellectual media played a vertical game; journalists wrote up and professors wrote down. Today, Third Culture thinkers tend to avoid the middleman and endeavour to express their deepest thoughts in a manner accessible to the intelligent reading public.'

Brockman's cross-fertilising club, the most rarefied of chatrooms, has its premises on his website www.edge.org. Eavesdropping is fun. Ian McEwan, one of the few novelists who has contributed to Edge's ongoing debates, suggests that the project is not so far removed from the 'old Enlightenment dream of a unified body of knowledge, when biologists and economists draw on each other's concepts and molecular biologists stray into the poorly defended territory of chemists and physicists'.

Brockman is at the hub of this conversation. When I phone him, he is waiting for a call from maverick geneticist Craig Venter about an invention that will 'put new operating mechanisms into genes' and radically change our idea of life; earlier, he has been speaking to George Smoot, the Nobel-winning astrophysicist who first identified the background radiation of the Big Bang and thereby invented cosmology.

From where he is sitting, the Two Cultures no longer applies, the Third Culture has long-since prevailed.

'Basically, in terms of whatever war has been going on, I think it has finished,' he says. 'I don't characterise it by saying we've won. I think everybody has won. We are living in a profound science culture and the big events that are affecting people's lives are scientific ones.'

What about Natalie Angier's anxiety that these ideas have not trickled down, that, if anything, scientific thought seems to be on the retreat?

'Since when have the masses of people had any ideas anyway?' Brockman asks. 'It is always a certain percentage of people who do the thinking for everybody else. What is changing,' he argues, contrary to Angier's perception, 'is that the media people, who used to have no thoughts of science, now sit up. Science makes the news.'

I wonder why there are still so few literary contributors to Edge, which has remained a predominantly scientific and philosophical forum. Is there not some evidence there that the divide persists?

Brockman explains how Edge evolved out of a group called the Reality Club that held actual meetings with scientists, artists, architects, musicians. Ten of the leading novelists in America were invited to participate. Not one accepted.

'We are talking about Vonnegut, Updike, Mailer, John Irving,' Brockman says. 'Ian McEwan is one of the first writers to jump feet-first into the world of science and embraced it wholeheartedly. But we still have never had a novelist come to one of these events. Neither have we had a major business person. Maybe getting up in front of a group of Nobel-winning scientists to talk might be intimidating for these people. Maybe they are too busy.'

Brockman's optimism is infectious, and, at his elite level, the battle may have been won, but further down the food chain, the forces of reason are still compromised by the culture.

When I had recovered a little of my composure with James Watson, back in Cold Spring Harbor, I asked him how he thought the climate of scientific research had changed since he made his fateful discovery of the structure of life in 1953. As ever, he came at the question from an unusual angle. He doubted, he said, that in today's world, he and Francis Crick would ever have had their Eureka moment.

'I recently went to my staircase at Clare College, Cambridge and there were women there!' he said, with an enormous measure of retrospective sexual frustration. 'There have been a lot of convincing studies recently about the loss of productivity in the Western male. It may be that entertainment culture now is so engaging that it keeps people satisfied. We didn't have that. Science was much more fun than listening to the radio. When you are 16 or 17 and in that inherently semi-lonely period when you are deciding whether to be an intellectual, many now don't bother.'

Watson raised an eyebrow, fixed me again with a look. 'What you have instead are characters out of Nick Hornby's very funny books, who channel their intellect in pop culture. The hopeless male.'

As James Watson knows perhaps more clearly than anyone alive, biology works in mysterious ways.

For the complementary article in the Guardian, go to:

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1367,The-Panel,Tim-Adams

Comments 1 - 32 of 32 |

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1. Comment #53389 by Graeme on July 1, 2007 at 7:41 am

"but she has not, for example, sold her book in the UK, a place, we might remember, where 20 per cent of people still believe that the Sun revolves around Earth."

Anyone know where this little statistic came from?

I dont think I've ever met ANYONE who thought that.... maybe I should get out more.

Other Comments by Graeme

2. Comment #53395 by Mango on July 1, 2007 at 8:23 am

 avatarBrockman, "Since when have the masses of people had any ideas anyway? It is always a certain percentage of people who do the thinking for everybody else."

I cringe at his elitist attitude, and I also cringe in my agreement with it.

Other Comments by Mango

3. Comment #53397 by TemporaryAura on July 1, 2007 at 8:34 am

 avatar
Margaret Meade said
"Never doubt that a group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has"

How do we turn off the italics???
Thanx

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4. Comment #53399 by phil rimmer on July 1, 2007 at 8:55 am

 avatar

Should be OK now.

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5. Comment #53400 by phil rimmer on July 1, 2007 at 8:57 am

 avatarComment Posting Guidelines shows how to turn stuff on and off.

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6. Comment #53429 by evolver23 on July 1, 2007 at 12:25 pm

'There have been a lot of convincing studies recently about the loss of productivity in the Western male. It may be that entertainment culture now is so engaging that it keeps people satisfied. We didn't have that. Science was much more fun than listening to the radio. When you are 16 or 17 and in that inherently semi-lonely period when you are deciding whether to be an intellectual, many now don't bother.'

Does this scare the shit out of anyone else? I'm reminded of Neil Postman's "Amusing Ourselves To Death."

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7. Comment #53455 by rodch on July 1, 2007 at 2:04 pm

'George Smoot, the Nobel-winning astrophysicist who first identified the background radiation of the Big Bang and thereby invented cosmology.'

I guess that Prof. Smoot would be surprised to learn this.
His own Smoot Group website presents a more balanced picture:

http://aether.lbl.gov/cmb.html

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8. Comment #53456 by Nails on July 1, 2007 at 2:05 pm

 avatarMy 13 year old son thinks his x-box is much more interesting than science, though he does understand the basics of evolution.
Maths and physics drown him, but we are working on it....
in that sense, I guess he has an advantage over many of his peers...

Other Comments by Nails

9. Comment #53481 by jonecc on July 1, 2007 at 3:49 pm

The article implied that the Angier book hasn't been released in the UK. I've just ordered it from Amazon UK, and there was no indication of any problem.

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10. Comment #53516 by BT Murtagh on July 1, 2007 at 9:19 pm

 avatarFrankly, those analogies for the Second Law of Thermodynamics seem designed to make the matter less clear in the mind, not more...

Oh, subtle!!!

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

11. Comment #53565 by blueollie on July 2, 2007 at 4:27 am

Fact: science is interesting, but it is HARD! Learning anything at all about it requires time and effort and some capability; you can't learn about evolution by reading a book just before bedtime when those eyes are getting heavy... ;-)

And yes, only a handful truly understand; this is indeed the age of the professional scientist.

And frankly, we all have different talents. Not everyone can build a house from scratch, rebuild an automobile motor, do carpentry (I've ruined a door or two trying to "do it myself" ;-) ) or other activities which also take time and effort to learn.

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12. Comment #53582 by Rtambree on July 2, 2007 at 5:44 am

 avatar16. Comment #53598 by Rtambree on July 2, 2007 at 7:11 am

It's astonishing that Robert Winston and Susan Greenfield, two prominent face-of-science public intellectuals didn't get the answers to some basic questions.

Everyone expects the poet and journalists to be clueless, but well-known science celebrities? Winston & Greenfield should tender their resignations.

The artsy-humanities types will respond "but you don't need to know how old the Earth is". Which is correct, but you don't need to know which poet/painter/composer, etc completed what work of art either.

In the end it's about status - it's currently considered geek-ish or boffinish (negative characteristics) to know things about the real world, whereas you are "cultured" and "sophisticated" (postiive characteristics) if you can quote the fashionable playwrights.

Since humanities-types with arts degrees are the gatekeepers to the media that sets the agenda for what is "cool" and what is "uncool", naturally attributes which make them look good are elevated and vice versa.

It's entirely arbitrary if science is interesting to people - it depends on what the prevailing culture is and what gets you status. Some cultures (the Victorian gentleman) played a high value on learning about the world. Life under Soviet Russia made mathematics and chess-playing desirable.

At the moment, it's the anti-intellectual mainstream American media that dominates western culture, and naturally you get the corresponding decline in interest in science (i.e. your status, income, ability to "score" is reduced).

It doesn't have to be like this. Sure, the maths of advanced theorectical physics is beyond many people, but basic concepts such as humans' relation to the cosmos, age of the Earth, anthropology, genes, etc is within the ability of every normal human.

And it doesn't have to be either science / or arts. I'm sure a lot more scientists such as Dawkins, Sagan, Weinberg, etc know about literature, music, theatre, classics, etc than the other way around.

Other Comments by Rtambree

13. Comment #53648 by gordon on July 2, 2007 at 11:54 am

 avatarRtambree,

I am a painter. As far back as I can remember, I have drawn, sketched, doodled, jotted and painted. I tend to see everything as a 'picture', even scientific concepts or abstract thought. The work I produce as results of this cognitive process, despite being conceived in an abstract ferment, end as figurative works. To take an abstract thought and attempt to correlate it with our physical situation, explore, explain it and represent the results in a work of art, or science, or philosophy seems to be much more worthy than to continue to prolong it as an abstraction or as conceptual. If I had therefore to list 'painting' influences, I would probably list Stanley Spencer, Vermeer, Hogarth, Daumier, Giotto, Fuselli, Holman–Hunt, Leonardo Da Vinci, Joseph Wright of Derby, Schiele, Munch, Bruegel, Rembrandt and Otto Dix, although an appreciation of every influence would be difficult to list (and probably very boring as this list is already becoming). This list is only the 'painterly' influences, which is only a very small part of why or what I paint. Influences include, music, science, politics, philosophy, living, breathing, family, pets, seeing plants grow, watching birds sing and feed, fear of this or that, all recorded, stored and interpreted within an incredible piece of software (or not so incredible as the case may be), the human brain. To quote one source is simplistic and limiting. The trouble with listing influences is that it's usually a method of neatly placing you into a package and then moving on. That's a shame because I really don't see any contemporary painters with whom I would feel comfortable or even remotely related. I much prefer the discourse with science and philosophy to that of art alone. Why the separation? It wasn't always thus. A fascination and burning curiosity with life around us is surely one shared by science, philosophy and art in all their categories as a means of rational enquiry? I don't align myself with any artistic groups and I rarely meet other painters. Maybe science is the new Art. It seems to be the only thing left that speaks truthfully of awe and wonder. We will never have the complete picture but at least we can see clearer with each revealed truth. This also has the added dimension, with each new discovery, of shifting the horizon and the perspective with which we view it. I also love the fact that science will open itself to scrutiny and subject every theory to rigorous debate and innumerable tests. If a flaw can be found then it will be exposed or explained. This doesn't happen over night in all cases, some hypotheses' carry on for a very long time until new facts expose them as fallacious, but each piece of ignorance is seen as a challenge to science, not as a failure or as a reason not to look further. As others study science and religion, I paint Alter pieces in a traditional style. Alter pieces to an atheistic world view, my way of understanding the universe. If I'd had the ability I would have liked to have been a biologist. As it is, my strengths are elsewhere. Don't confuse the celebrity culture of art in the media with other avenues. Art and science are brothers from the same womb, viewed from the same source, the human brain.

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14. Comment #53651 by gordon on July 2, 2007 at 12:01 pm

 avatarPS, I also paint Altar pieces

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15. Comment #53657 by Rtambree on July 2, 2007 at 12:21 pm

 avatar14. Comment #53651 by gordon

PS, I also paint Altar pieces

Yes, you mentioned that in your previous post.

Why the separation? I think CP Snow's Two Cultures reaction stems largely from the Bloomsbury Group that appointed themselves as intellectuals. The Victorian novel was the medium of public discourse in ideas.

We need to separate out the idea of art-as-truth from art-as-beauty. There's nothing from with the latter. Good art is a trigger mechanism for dopamine, oxytocin or whatever neurotransmitters are responsible for giving you the nice aesthetic experience when viewing/listening to/or reading. It's what desserts are for the taste buds - there are fine desserts and cheap desserts, but the sugars and fats have give the pleasurable sensations are understood.

The problem comes when artists, and art proponents see art as truth. The only understanding of the universe one can extract from art is the understanding of cognitive biases in the brain: e.g. anthropocentrism, over-attribution of agency, the recounting and embellishing of narratives... all governed by aesthetic rules, both innate and cultural. No artist ever discovered any deep universal truths - they are always wrong, just like most scientists throughout history have been wrong... such as the Ptolemaic or orthodox Copernican models, Freudian psychoanalysis, Newtonian physics in relation to the orbit of Mercury, Lamarck, etc.

If most scientists get things wrong, what chance do artists have?

Let the artists stick to the production of eye and ear candy, and let the scientists continue understanding the universe, but one activity shouldn't be confused with the other.

Other Comments by Rtambree

16. Comment #53664 by gordon on July 2, 2007 at 12:49 pm

 avatarEye candy? Why does art have to be beautiful. Do we just have to paint pretty flowers in a vase? No artist ever discovered any deep universal truths? Leonardo Da Vinci? There is no separation between art and science, only in those who try and create one? We all look at life and try to understand our position. We all add a small brick to the monolithic wall of human understanding. We all operate with the same materials. Only an idiot will declare himself as an artist who sees the truth, the same type of idiot who as a scientist declares himself the one and only word. Your view of art seems to limit itself to the forms seen on the South Bank Show or on Tony Hart. Maybe you like Damien Hirst as he uses a lot of formaldehyde? Is the Hitch's view on religion a faux pas because he is not a scientist. Science is a world view, not a subject. What was discovered by great scientists in the past is now known and understood by schoolchildren. Does this make them poor examples? If you go to look at art just for dessert my friend, you are missing the main course. Your knowledge of art is as bad as the examples of those in the survey whose knowledge of science was poor. Basic concepts such as humans' relation to the cosmos, age of the Earth, anthropology, genes, etc is within the ability of every normal human. It is also the subject of much art. And I do know how old the earth is. I read it up!

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17. Comment #53671 by Rtambree on July 2, 2007 at 1:13 pm

 avatar>Eye candy? Why does art have to be beautiful.

It doesn't. To continue the food analogy, not all desserts are sweet - some can be bitter or sour. Then again art critics can label the grotesque, tortured subjects in Francis Bacon's paintings as "beautiful", so it's all subjective. Artists are very good at stringing together words to spin art to a "higher, transcendent" plane.

My gripe with artists is their pretension of undercovering deep truths about the cosmos.

>Only an idiot will declare himself as an artist who sees the truth,

Then, we're of one mind, Gordon, and there is no dispute between us. CP Snow's point about the Bloomsbury Group and other elite artists were that they were the self-appointed intellectuals of the day and the only ones qualified to make pronouncement of the issues of the day, when we now see, so much of their elitism, eugenics, and advocating whatever psychology fads around at the time, was wrong.

We can have a dicussion about shock art, schlock art, celebrity-driven art, highbrow versus middlebrow versus lowbrow art, modernism versus classicism, representational versus abstract, dissonant versus tonality, etc, and in the end it'll be your subjective preference (filtered through your genome, neurons, and culture/upbringing) versus mine (ditto).

I put it to you there is no independent verfication about what constitutes a good work of art versus a bad work of art - indeed, there is no objective reference about what constitutes ANY work of art in the first place. It's all so subjective. One can argue all one likes - lots of clever literary phrases with big words and "-isms" and quoting all the great art critics and theorists, but it's all rhetoric. One person's late Beethoven string quartet is another person's Kylie Minogue. Yes, it's pluralism at best, and relativism at worst.

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18. Comment #53674 by gordon on July 2, 2007 at 1:37 pm

 avatarMy point is that a seeking and rational world view is not exclusive to 'scientists'. There are many scientists who believe in God or even a particular faith with all the rules and regulations therein. I do not but am willing to be proved wrong if the evidence arises. I also cannot distinguish between thinking as an artist to that of thinking as of a scientist or philosopher. Where is the dividing line? I agree that most art on high visibility public view is eye candy or media induced but they tend not to pass the test of time. That is because we live in a capitalist society where everything is value assessed for it's immediate worth. Things get sorted over time to their actual worth, not its monetary value. I don't think there is such a thing as a good piece as against a bad piece in the same manner as there is not good science or bad science. There is just science. You could of course criticise technique but this only relates to what the canvas or piece looks like. In some art there is actually content. This is missing from the celebrity works who attempt to add it with great post modernist proclamations. I remember a girl in the sculpture department when I was at college, hanging some soiled tampons up on a line for her final show (this was twenty years before Tracey Emin remember) and posting a big long explanation on the wall for the visitor. After reading the impenetrable text I still didn't have a clue as to what the work was about but she got a first anyway. Like Tracey Emin's piles of junk, although stirring a surge of initial interest, it seems like intellectual popcorn, candy floss for the mind; go home and you forget it. This is only the contemporary celebrity stuff. Others carry on in pursuit of greater goals and understanding. Is it any different to a scientist working quietly to a greater understanding of the truth?

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19. Comment #53705 by Rtambree on July 2, 2007 at 6:21 pm

 avatarA good discussion, Gordon. Thank you.

>My point is that a seeking and rational world view is not exclusive to 'scientists'

No, it's not. But scientists are in the best position to do the breakthroughs in understanding, and then, and only then, can artists, etc join them in accepting the new knowledge. My point is that no artist ever discovered a genuine truth themselves through art.

> I also cannot distinguish between thinking as an artist to that of thinking as of a scientist or philosopher.

I can. An artist seeks to express his feelings - a response to the world. A scientist deliberate tries to negate his feelings (e.g. double blind).

>Where is the dividing line?

The dividing line is between emotional response (broad definition of beauty) and truth. In this sense, beauty is not necessarily truth.

The test of time:

On the surface, your criteria of the "test of time" as distinguishing between high quality and low quality art seems like a reasonable one. But there are still all sorts of arbitrary means by which a work can achieve LONG term fame - it can be stolen, or controverisal, or appear in a film, or fetch a record price, or the love life of the artist was controversial, or the artist was charismatic, or his earlier works were popular so his later trash survived beyond its merit, or the artwork was oft parodied, etc thus achieving a critical threshold where it has its own momentum in the meme-o-sphere. This can apply equally to "trashy" or "highbrow" art. There's no objective means to distinguish the difference.

Yes, I agree with your comments on postmodern rationalisations and descriptions for contemporary art. The obfuscation is proportional to how vacuous it is.

Understanding? I don't see how art (doing it or viewing it) can lead to any understanding about the universe? Solving dark energy? Relationships between species? Answering the great metaphysical questions?

Art is generated by intuition, which is an exceedingly poor tool in understanding the universe. If we guess, we will almost always be wrong. If we "feel" the answer is such and such, we will almost always be wrong.

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20. Comment #53750 by gordon on July 3, 2007 at 2:47 am

 avatarMorning Rtambree,

Not sure I agree with your point about scientists being in the best position to do the breakthroughs. Scientists prove and peer review the breakthroughs. Many others come up with a hypothesis. A hypothesis can be an illumination before the hard work of proof and can come from many a source. As a great fan of Douglas Adams I can see the stretch of his imagination as visionary but I never saw his work peer reviewed or classed as science. His art form was literature; his love was science, the result science fiction. I hear emotional cries from Stephen Hawking to P Z Myers and Carl Sagan, often before 'proof' is available. A work that is viable should prompt enquiry, not merely record. We have photography to record. It should prompt debate, not merely record a past or immediate event. Intuition is much undervalued as a starting point. I'm sure Einstein and Newton knew its worth. A Hawking hypothesis on the universe are not yet provable, more intuition than fact as we understand it now. He 'feels' his way forward. Scientists do not always make the breakthroughs but they do prove them. Beauty is certainly not truth but there is beauty in truth. The point is, one has to look for truth with whatever tool we have at our disposal. Our cognisance prompts enquiry, not acceptance, at an astounding range of levels. Art should pose questions. Science seeks to answer. Unfortunately most people see the 'use' of science and not the science itself. Science, like art, is swamped by its value in monetary terms at the hands of industrial manipulators. I am not making a judgement on this but the original article makes great play of the cultural visibility of the arts as oppose to science. Scientists need to raise their game in terms of presentation. This can, and often is, broached by art as a bedfellow of science. Observation is an ally of both, intuition is a great fuel.

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21. Comment #53765 by Rtambree on July 3, 2007 at 4:29 am

 avatarNo argument - asking questions is fine - anyone can and should ask questions. Bertrand Russsell famously reduced philosophy to speculation about what we don't know. I've no problem with artists, writers, philosophers, asking questions, so long as they don't pretend to get answers from their art or philosophy, because the history of ideas suggests that they'll just about always be wrong, without "having a look empiricially" - which is science. Even Copernicus was wrong - the planets don't travel in circular orbits in uniform motion. He didn't do experiments.

>the cultural visibility of the arts as oppose to science. Scientists need to raise their game in terms of presentation.

Yes, this is an interesting debate - is it a presentation problem, a medium problem, or do humans have to lift their game in coming up to meet the facts rather than have the latest research nestled in a text-box between Paris Hilton's legs.

Obviously, the cultural tautology of having arts graduates in the media will reinforce arts-related topics as ones you hear about. These arts issues will become "important" and the public will improve their social standing if they get plugged into who painted what, who composed what, who wrote what, etc.

Scientists spend all their time cocooned in their laboratries rather than writing for mainstream journals. On top of that, the research usually requires mathematical ability to comprehend, and it almost always dehumanises aspects that people cherish - e.g. heliocentrism, Darwinism having chimps 99% human, neurology undermining free will, etc.

So it's three things: 1. the disccomforting message of science (de-anthropocentrism), 2. the intellectual difficulty of science (maths and other counter-intuitive aspects), and the lack of being able to distribute the message (i.e. most media run by arts graduates).

In the end, being scientifically-literate as opposed to the arts-literate gets you less breeding opportunities - basic evolutionary psychology unfortunately. Look at what we pay our celebrities in the media, and what we pay our scientists.

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22. Comment #53771 by logical on July 3, 2007 at 4:55 am

 avatarI am sorry, but C.P.Snow is outdated.
What is now, is not two cultures but some learning against organized dumbth.
And the question is, will we (and if it´s because of RD´s English accent only) be able to free enough people from the heavy hand (being taught lifelong obedience) of such organizations like the vatican and its copies (televangelists, the military and corporations in economy)???
After all, organizations can have person status in US law!
Living beings´ rights against rights corporations incorporate, could also be a way to put the question.

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23. Comment #53776 by rokort on July 3, 2007 at 5:27 am

 avatarRtambree and Gordon,

first of all, my apologies to butt in, but I seriously enjoy your argumenting and feel tempted to react.

I "know" virtually nothing about art and some about science, but do have a remark/question related to your conversation. Excuses in advance when it sounds silly or when i'm missing either ones' point.

Scientists have found that in certain paintings by Vincent van Gogh and Jackson Pollock the pattern of their brush strokes (Van Gogh; turbulence/chaos) or "dripping" (Pollock; fractals) can be explained with mathematical rigor. This rigor can beconsidered nature's way of ordering energy. Amazingly enough, these complex patterns as chaos or fractals are perceived as beauty in our minds. So Van Gogh and Pollock make beauty – which is "understood" by a wide audience (like how EH Gombrich eloquently explains in his "Story of Art" why some art can be considered universal beauty), and scientists now might have discovered why. What we don't fully understand yet (if I'm correct) is what neurological processes make us think "beauty" when we see "chaos".

My question, I guess: now who knows what beauty is best: someone who makes it, or someone who understands what biochemical processes lead to the cognition of beauty? Rtambree, though an artist might not know why, he/she can make beauty, so does know how. Is this less valuable then when the artist doesn't know what it exactly is in our brain that makes us smile and awe at the sight of it? Is subjective understanding worth less? Isn't art just another language to transmit truth? And I say this as a scientist that doesn't think science necessarily makes truth, but enlightens us about the how.

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24. Comment #53784 by gordon on July 3, 2007 at 6:11 am

 avatarRtrambree,

We all have to lift our game. The starting pay for scientists is absolutely pathetic. The media is run, not by arts graduates (although I don't dispute this could be the case) but by barons who dictate the programme for financial gain, The art market is run as a closed loop in a similar manner, one is invited in only if one is seen as a potential sales boost. This is just the state of things, its no use bemoaning the fact. These are the ground rules within which we have to operate. As for Paris Hilton, she lives in a parallel universe I think. If I had a small pittance of her cash I could get large amounts of work finished, but that's filed under tough shit. I agree most scientists operate within their own cocoons and we need more elucidation by such people as Dawkins, Dennet et all. Reductionism can be depressing if taken to its extreme but my view of humanity and our place in the universe has been brightened by my reading from science, not dulled. I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone can believe in any religion, especially after my time in the Middle East, but they do and we have to work within those parameters. I agree that artists and philosophers should not parade a set of answers, but I do think we can help set the questions and illuminate the answers when found.

PS, I don't think Richard had his breeding opportunities reduced by his science.

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25. Comment #53786 by gordon on July 3, 2007 at 6:20 am

 avatarrokort,

Art is a language like any other. It can state the truth or it can be held to facilitate spectacular lies. This is why it cannot be judged in present terms of reference. It can record or merely titillate the senses, or, when at its greatest it can illuminate and question. The direction and use is down to the artist but not necessarily under the artist's control. My argument is that the arts and science in their basic forms are symbiotic in the quest for human understanding.

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26. Comment #53791 by Dr Benway on July 3, 2007 at 6:56 am

 avatarrokort:
Art is a language like any other. It can state the truth or it can be held to facilitate spectacular lies.
Agreed. Bad art kills people. Particularly bad acting, I think.

Dawkins is married to an actor, isn't he? Wonder if she'd back me up on this.

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27. Comment #53829 by Red Foot Oakie on July 3, 2007 at 12:35 pm

 avatarAn interesting article. I'm very worried about the general scientific ignorance that seems to be on display in the US. Of course, I couldn't tell you the second law of thermodynamics- outside of the fact that it has something to do with energy... maybe energy transfers.

But, at least I'm in the ballpark. At least I know there IS a second law of thermodynamics.

On the other hand, I do think that the observation about "science being for kids" is accurate. And I have a suspicion as to why so many people are happy leaving science behind in their lives.

For example, the actual day-to-day useful bit of biology for most people boils down to this: Wash your hands. Brush your teeth. If you get a cut, clean it up and then cover it up.

You don't really need to know the intermediate steps from bacteria to humans- you just need to know that you need to keep the bacteria OUT.

AND, a hundred or so years after the germ theory of desiese came out, we've come up with lots of great, easy ways to keep the bacteria out that don't rely on you knowing much about what's going on in the microscopic world of your cut fingertip.

It seems that's the way these things evolve. A bunch of science/research is done, something is produced, and then that idea/product is refined and made idiot-proof.

My computer is a great example. So is my car. They are both remarkably complicated objects that took lots of people lots of work to get into their current state. I only have to remember a few basics about them to operate them. I don't need to know much about electronics, or chemistry, or even physics (...although I'd prefer to think that drivers have a decent grasp of physics).

So, I wonder if the "tipping" point is more about people not even realizing that chemistry and electronics and physics is what makes your car and computer "go". Something a lot of people probably don't think about until things stop working- and then they usually just get another one.

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28. Comment #53832 by gordon on July 3, 2007 at 12:43 pm

 avatarOuch, I think our debate just ended!

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29. Comment #53836 by Rtambree on July 3, 2007 at 1:08 pm

 avatarGordon...

RE: Breeding opportunities.

You picked a superstar of science. If you compare average with average of each field, then you'd get a different result.

In any case, in modern society, you need to distinguish between proximate and primary motivations for breeding. Most men, even low status ones, can breed with someone, but why do men compete to get the more desirable partners? Male income seems inversely proportional to female dress size. Humans are an unusual species in that females also compete with each other to get better males, rather than just sitting back and choosing from a host of suitors, like most other animals. It's probably something to do with the large investment needed to raise a human from birth to independence.

If science literacy got you desirability points (income, status, etc) I think our brains/culture are sufficiently plastic so that the impediments of de-anthropocentrism and intellectual difficulty inherent to science would be overcome. We'd all jump through whatever hoops we had to. The desire for status trumps everything else and can manifest itself in many different ways (strength, bloodline, fame, wealth, beauty, intelligence, power, hunting prowess, generosity, humour, health, etc).

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30. Comment #53837 by gordon on July 3, 2007 at 1:18 pm

 avatarRtambree

Just had a bottle of wine with my wife so i'll answer tomorrow.

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31. Comment #53847 by Goldy on July 3, 2007 at 2:25 pm

 avatarRed Foot Okie, when you say
"For example, the actual day-to-day useful bit of biology for most people boils down to this: Wash your hands. Brush your teeth. If you get a cut, clean it up and then cover it up.

You don't really need to know the intermediate steps from bacteria to humans- you just need to know that you need to keep the bacteria OUT."
I'm not so sure. In China, it seems antibiotics are given for colds. Had a bit of a time convincing my wife that antibiotics were useless for viral infections. Had she known a smidge more biology, she would have known that.

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32. Comment #53878 by Red Foot Oakie on July 3, 2007 at 10:13 pm

 avatarGoldy:

I'm not saying that a strong knowledge of science isn't better than a weak one. I'm just saying that, really, we're pretty much a "plug-and-play" species. We actually do pretty well just knowing the high points.

And, generally, we treat viruses the same way as bacteria- we try our best to avoid them or situations where they are likely to be transferred. Prevention is generally easier and cheaper than treatment.

Plus, isn't the medical community in China more at fault in your scenario than your wife?

On a slightly related note, while most people don't think of all the chemistry, phsyics, and electrical engineering that goes on when they drive a car, I've noticed that the religeous are ALWAYS bringing up thier gods. Had a good day? the gods get credit. A bad one? The gods may help. That food that you bought with the money you earned at your job, and was grown/transported/etc by a small army of people? Better thank the gods who provided it before you eat it.

Kind of creepy, if you ask me. But also pretty effective at keeping the cult in the front of people's minds.

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