Monday, July 16, 2007 | Reason : Political | print version

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Fears Grow Over 'Mega Mosque'

by Daily Express

Reposted from:
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/13553/Fears-growing-over-

car

GORDON Brown is under pressure to block a �75million "mega mosque", amid claims one of the suspected Glasgow Airport bombers belongs to the radical Islamic group behind it.

More than 200,000 people have signed a Downing Street petition calling on the Prime Minister to intervene over plans for the mosque near the Olympics site in east London.

It is being funded by the fundamentalist Tablighi Jamaat sect. One member of the sect is said to be Kafeel Ahmed, who was engulfed in flames when a Jeep laden with gas canisters crashed into a Glasgow Airport building two weeks ago.

The 27-year-old from Bangalore is fighting for his life in hospital after suffering 90 per cent burns.

He is said to have taken up the teachings of Tablighi Jamaat after he was asked to leave his local mosque which he had tried to convert to what he called a purer form of Islam.

The 7/7 suicide bombers Moham med Siddique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer attended the European headquarters of Tablighi Jamaat at Dews bury, West Yorkshire.

The sect's plans for a huge mosque just a mile from the main Olympics stadium have caused much concern.
Local Tory councillor Alan Craig said: "It will be a horrendous security nightmare if they are allowed to build?this large mosque so close to the Olympics.

"They have a growing and ominous track record as further young men follow Tablighi teaching about Islam and then go on to plan horrendous atrocities."

The Newham councillor accused the sect of radicalising and dehumanising young Muslims and said: "The dangerous truth about Tablighi Jamaat is coming out.

"We must watch the gap between what they say and what they do."

The centre-right think tank Civitas has also raised concerns about the mosque which will hold 12,000 people — four times as many as Britain's largest Christian building, Liver pool's Anglican cathedral.

It said: "Are we sure, as a nation, that we want by far the largest place of worship in our land to be sponsored by an organisation which holds views directly opposed to our democracy and a religion which, in many parts of the world, denies essential freedoms?"

Tablighi Jamaat, funded by millions of pounds sent from zealots in Saudi Arabia, has hired public relations company, Indigo, to deflect criticism from its mosque project.

An Indigo spokesman said yesterday the group was aware of reports linking Kafeel Ahmed to its religious teachings but could not say whether he was a worshipper or not because "we do not have membership cards".

He said that Tablighi Jamaat was a peace-loving mainstream religious group with 80 million followers around the world, many in India and Saudi Arabia.

RELATED: Petition to Abolish plans to build a �100 million mega Mosque
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ScrapMegaMosque/

Posted: Monday, July 16, 2007 | Permalink

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1. Comment #56599 by Nails on July 16, 2007 at 1:59 pm

As long as the plans include plenty of fire extinguishers I can't see a problem.
And if anyone wants to douse themselves in petrol you can just hit them over the head with it....
Seriously, scary news.
I hope it is blocked, if only on the grounds that non-muslims (I suspect) will not be allowed antry.

Other Comments by Nails

2. Comment #56600 by Henri Bergson on July 16, 2007 at 2:02 pm

This mosque must be prevented.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

3. Comment #56602 by weavehole on July 16, 2007 at 2:08 pm

Surely we can just create a large eruv around it like what those nice young boys in Borehamwood are doing. If my calculations are correct we'll only need 3/4 mile of wire and about 450 poles to erect it.

My mate Aleksy will even help put it up at half the cost of your average eruv constructor. There you go, everyone's a winner, especially if we put a bingo hall up next door.

Now, what could we call it?

Other Comments by weavehole

4. Comment #56609 by CJ22 on July 16, 2007 at 2:21 pm

Hmm, I'm not so sure. There's something to be said for keeping all your bad eggs in one basket. At least we'll know where they are. I wonder if the security forces think that a mega-mosque is a bad idea?

Other Comments by CJ22

5. Comment #56616 by Vinelectric on July 16, 2007 at 2:46 pm

It is obvious that the situation for muslims in the west is really touch and go, for various reasons. Agitating the all too volatile situation is the least we need for the moment. The mosque can wait. There are already enough one's out there. The money can be used to start some usefull charity project that would benefit all Britons .

Other Comments by Vinelectric

6. Comment #56618 by Osiris on July 16, 2007 at 3:02 pm

Do you think the plans will include storage rooms for essential religious objects such as AK47`s and grenade launchers as in the Red Mosque ?.

Other Comments by Osiris

7. Comment #56620 by Jonathan Dore on July 16, 2007 at 3:17 pm

Sadly, the full wording of this petition is as follows:

We the Christian population of this great country England would like the proposed plan to build a Mega Mosque in East London Scrapped. This will only cause terrible violence and suffering and more money should go into the NHS.

Oh dear.

Other Comments by Jonathan Dore

8. Comment #56621 by serrano on July 16, 2007 at 3:18 pm

I predict that IF they try something at the Olympics the damage will be minimal but the retaliation will be severe. You can't just go and attack the Olympics using a giant heavily-observed mosque as part of your strategy. Then when you try, you'll have over 200 countries pissed off at you. Maybe it'll even get the whole world in the Team America World Police state of mind. Yee-haw!

Other Comments by serrano

9. Comment #56625 by tieInterceptor on July 16, 2007 at 3:59 pm

Oh my...
Everyday I'm getting more worried about the Muslims and their slowly but surely growth in our society (shall I remind that Muslim is not a race?) I know it sounds topical.
I started my active Atheism a while ago, learning the details of the Bible as it's closer to what I know so I can make informed opinions, but for the last few years with the world terrorist climate, and looking on the news, youtube videos and www.skepticsannotatedbible.com , I sort of shifted my attention 50% to Islam, and learned about the history and teachings of the Quran... and its not pretty... Islam is not only a religion, it is a way of life that controls every aspect of its followers, and to my opinion for the worst, very worst... just the fact of prayer five times a day should ring alarm bells to anyone with a free mind. In interferes too much to be compatible with our free society, it is only tolerant wile it has to be, just by peer pressure.

Saw this today, It kinda depressed me. Wafa Sultan on Danish tv

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Negt6IzxPTo

I agree, with her that there is no such thing as moderate Muslims. There is only people of Muslims culture... the ones we consider moderate, in reality should not call themselves Muslims, since the Quran is very clear about what makes a Muslim.
And the moderates clearly do not pass the test.

This is why I think that building Mosques is not a good idea, the people are not bad... but the ideas behind the religion are way too corrosive... I could post quoted examples for shock effect... but this is not youtube comments, I know you guys know, or at least can check the http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com if you wish.

good night,

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

10. Comment #56649 by Theocrapcy on July 16, 2007 at 6:40 pm

The bigger the mosque the greater the belief, why of course it all starts to make sense.

Sounds like Taliban Disney, they could sell tickets and have a terrorist ghost ride. Stripper virgins in the comedy tent for the adults.

Other Comments by Theocrapcy

11. Comment #56651 by Big T on July 16, 2007 at 6:49 pm

Being an American, I should probably keep my nose out of this one. And, since I've been accused of anti-Muslim bigotry on this site, I should probably keep out of this one. But, what the heck, here's an idea: why not approach the Saudi rulers and propose the following: Muslims can build all the mosques they please in Western countries, all we ask in return is thatatheists be allowed to set up centers for teaching atheism in Mecca and Medina and all over Saudi Arabia. Wonder what their reply would be?

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12. Comment #56654 by Goldy on July 16, 2007 at 6:58 pm

Big T, the answer would probably be the same if a request to build a church was asked...

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13. Comment #56655 by Morro on July 16, 2007 at 7:13 pm

Don't justify government oppression by pointing out that your enemy does it too. We are BETTER than them, specifically because we have more freedom than they do.

As a libertarian, I simply can't support government intervention into a privately funded institution. If they do something wrong, nail them to the wall. Have the citizens protest its building. But an actual government injunction is a separate matter.

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14. Comment #56662 by Dagor Bragollach on July 16, 2007 at 9:16 pm

I think that people have to accept the fact that moslems are a significant part in our modern western societies.
Today we have basically two options:

1.) We can try to integrate muslims in our societies
2.) We can isolate them

My opinion is that they will only adopt our western values if we actually integrate them and an important factor is to allow them to practice their religion openly in the middle of us.
It may take a few generations but i believe that if we can make them feel at home in their new countries they eventually will adopt a lot of the culture (incl ahteism).
If we isolate them it is propably the safest way to homegrow some terrorists.
If the sect the article is talking about wants to overthrow the state and is against the constitution they should be banned, if not then let them build their mosque.

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15. Comment #56664 by Theocrapcy on July 16, 2007 at 9:35 pm

@Dagor Bragollach
"My opinion is that they will only adopt our western values if we actually integrate them and an important factor is to allow them to practice their religion openly in the middle of us."

How is a massive mosque a sign of integration? If anything it is proof they are and want to be different. There are plenty of mosques around already to house mosque-goers. To them it is nothing but a place to go, for the fundie crackpots a massive mosque is a sign of Islamis imperialism - one step closer toward a Moslem world power.

What's the obsession with big houses of worship with these religeous freaks? Isn't believing enough? If MacDonalds decided toi build a massive restaurant they would get shot down in flames, yet we give free reign to god freaks to build the most insane structures - not only that but mosques are horrible ugly things that loonies scream from the tops of.

No thanks.

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16. Comment #56690 by Tobbe on July 17, 2007 at 12:47 am

Would be interesting to know how many billions of dollars the Saudis use each year to spread their perverted ideology around the world.

Other Comments by Tobbe

17. Comment #56693 by scottishgeologist on July 17, 2007 at 1:10 am

Osiris

This sort of thing has already happened (according to this any way):

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/islam/story/0,,651748,00.html

"AK-47 training held at London Mosque"

Old story I know

Anyway, let them build their mosque, only 2 (reasonable IMO) conditions apply:

1) It has to be built in Saudi Arabia
2) All those who want to attend have to emigrate.

Otherwise, STFU.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

18. Comment #56694 by pewkatchoo on July 17, 2007 at 1:16 am

CJ22
Sorry but you are barking up the wrong tree there. Keeping all your eggs in one basket would require closing all the other mosques spread around the country and moving all the muslims to London. While we are busy focussing on one huge megaplex in London, all sorts of nasty stuff would be being planned elsewhere.

If the intelligence community are saying otherwise then they will have proved to me beyond doubt that they could not find their backsides with the aid of GPS and a route map.

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19. Comment #56696 by pewkatchoo on July 17, 2007 at 1:20 am

Jonathon Dore
I agree that the wording of the petition is terrible, it was obviously started by a religious person without the ability to produce a well thought out premise (quelle surprise there). However, I still signed it because it is the only game in town at the moment. Of course, I could have started my own petition for atheists only, but that would have been used by the politicos to diffuse the original petition.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

20. Comment #56697 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 17, 2007 at 1:21 am

The Mosque needs to be stopped. Hasn't everyone already seen the "undercover Mosque" documentary? Does anyone doubt what will be preached in the megamosque?

And so Europe's transformation into Eurabia contiues...

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

21. Comment #56700 by Corylus on July 17, 2007 at 1:30 am

Interestingly, alot of the local muslims realise that this is one BAD plan.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article651161.ece

I believe this was tried by the Saudis for the Greek Olympics too.

Sigh.

Other Comments by Corylus

22. Comment #56701 by Blue Powder Monkey on July 17, 2007 at 1:31 am

Can anybody direct me to a reliable source of information about the actual plans for this mosque? Ken Livingstone's site (http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_release.jsp?releaseid=11471) seems to raise questions about the scale of the planned building and seems to suggest that there may be a hint of BNP unpleasantness behind the propagation of the petitions.

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23. Comment #56702 by CJ22 on July 17, 2007 at 1:36 am

"And so Europe's transformation into Eurabia contiues..."

Yeah, they got us right where we want them. I'm scared...

UNITED KINGDOM
Total population: 58.8 million
Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%)

Other Comments by CJ22

24. Comment #56703 by jesus_christ_himself on July 17, 2007 at 1:39 am

I wish people wouldn't post articles from the Daily Express on this site. It is a nasty, spiteful, hateful little rag that makes the Daily Mail look reasonable.

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25. Comment #56704 by Russell Blackford on July 17, 2007 at 1:46 am

I don't see how this can legitimately be stopped. Well, it could be if there would also be grounds to stop a US-style Christian mega-church in that particular spot, e.g. traffic congestion. But not simply on the ground that it is Muslim.

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26. Comment #56708 by tieInterceptor on July 17, 2007 at 2:13 am

'I don't see how this can legitimately be stopped.. But not simply on the ground that it is Muslim.'

what about in the grounds that the teachings of the Quran are considered hate speech by anyone who cares to look?

let's call a spade a spade shall we? I was looking at the news this morning, and I zapped over the 25 or so religious channels that come free (whatever you want them or not) with sky TV,
I went to Islam TV, there was today at 8:30 am, a video of animals and flowers and rivers, with chanting from the Quran on Arabic as the soundtrack, with English subtitles...
it took me less than 2 min to see hate speech, even if it sounds biased from me, I'm not lying.. the chant keep going about fighting people who do not believe, talked about giving 1/5 of the booty to God after conquering them, that unbelievers are blind and stupid and will burn in hell... it was so in your face that I could not believe it.

Imagine the same, but it was a channel called Nationalism TV, or Racism TV, it would never be left alone,

religion gets a free pass, and it disgust me.

Integration with that message its an impossibility, .. it will never work, if anyone integrates like Sam Harris says, 'it is because many Muslims do not take the Quran that seriously' and as he says, 'that is a good thing'

Change the message first, integrate later.

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27. Comment #56711 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 17, 2007 at 2:18 am

CJ22...

It's called birth rates. Muslim birth rates are high, all over 3, while European birth rates are collapsing.

Worse still, this means that the discrepancy among young people, i.e. the ones that make the only decent soldiers. Think this is unimportant? Take a good look at what happened in Lebanon. An increase in young male Muslims is bad news, especially when we consider that the European welfare state keeps so many of them on the dole because of our economic paralysis. Look at France. Basic law of humanity: unemployed young men with nothing to do but hang around, get radicalised. It doesn't matter with what - they do.

And the instant that the number of young males reaches something like parity, or even close to it, watch out. Seven kinds of hell will break out.

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28. Comment #56717 by BillySands on July 17, 2007 at 3:26 am

I see the petition was a christian one - how tolerant of them

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29. Comment #56723 by Crazymalc on July 17, 2007 at 3:56 am

Meh. This is kinda complicated. I dunno if I agree with the idea that you can't build a mosque as a place of worship. This is stomping on people's rights to freedom of religion.

If it is, of course, a base for terrorism then hell yes ban it.

I doubt very many people at all would oppose a church being built.

I personally would not like to see it built, just like I hate places like the Crystal Catherdral with a passion. But people have the right to spend money on their religion if they want.

I guess the reason this is what Hitchens et. all mean when the say religion poisons everything

Other Comments by Crazymalc

30. Comment #56725 by Myryama on July 17, 2007 at 4:04 am

If you follow the link to the petition on the No.10 website, you find this message:

"The e�petition asking the Prime Minister to 'Abolish plans to build a �100 million mega Mosque' is still ongoing. This is a response from the Government in advance of the closing date.

Under planning legislation, local planning authorities are responsible for the day to day control of development in their area. In doing so they are required to take into account all material considerations including the views of interested persons and particularly local communities.

With respect to the proposal associated with a site near the Olympic development in Newham, we understand from Newham Council that there is no current planning permission or application for a mosque and Newham Council do not expect a planning application in the near future.

The Government believes that where controversial issues such as this arise, all involved should ensure that discussions are conducted in a manner that respects the views of all sections of our communities and in a way that does not raise tensions in local areas."

They may still be planning it, of course, and they may yet submit a planning application, but there should be plenty of time to object.

Other Comments by Myryama

31. Comment #56774 by GoatBoy36 on July 17, 2007 at 7:08 am

Fanusi,

Can I just say that I have sent in several new posts (inc. what will probably be my final one just now) on the thread started by Christopher Hitchens's article about the car bomb in London targetting women; the thread seems to have quietened right down, but I thought you might get a kick out of reading what I've said there.

yours,

gb.

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

32. Comment #56783 by Rtambree on July 17, 2007 at 7:50 am

I don't know on what grounds you could single out this one place of worship when there are hundreds of others.

Hate speech? Perhaps, but you'd have to be consistent and dismantle all Abrahamic places of worship as they overlap in their hate speech. At the very least, you could withdraw government funding, tax exemptions, to Church of England parishes, faith schools, etc.

Architectural aesthetics? Local government planning? Perhaps.

Christian country? Certainly not - that would be hypocritical of atheists to sign a petition in the name of a Christian country.

Evidence of a base of terrorism? Sure, but show us the evidence.

Threat? Not really credible at this stage. Atheists would be a laughing stock if we started quaking in our boots every time the Daily Express or some Murdoch outlet ran some fearmongering piece. It reminds me of that cartoon skit in Bowling for Columbine where the white folk are constantly scared.

The war of ideas to make society irreligious won't be won by top-down draconian goverment interventions. Even Hitchens supports the Voltaire-notion of free speech. Often these actions end up radicalising the enemy further as they feel persecuted.

Other Comments by Rtambree

33. Comment #56787 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 17, 2007 at 8:17 am

GoatBoy, thanks for the note. I was amused to see, reading your quotations of Xenocratic's comments, that I apparently now have a 'brigade'. But there's not much to be gained from that debate. For reasons outlined, I have no intention in helping with Xenocratic's autofellatio and the rest, such as Jiten, refuse to deal with my points.

Rtambree, when it comes to stopping the spread of Islam, well, here I will agree with what Churchill said: "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would find myself siding with Satan". Same principle. I am more than happy to make common cause with Christians against what Kipling accurately described as "a crazed and driven foe".

>>Hate speech? Perhaps, but you'd have to be consistent and dismantle all Abrahamic places of worship as they overlap in their hate speech<<

Okay, this is _bullshit_. I don't like Christianity much; actually, I don't like it at all. But to pretend that what is preached in, say, the Church of England or a Pentecostal church in a sleepy WASP town in America, is even _remotely_ comparable with the hate-saturated propaganda of the Mosques is beyond ridiculous. It is down right pathological.

And if you want proof of what goes on in those Mosques, take an hour to watch the 'Undercover Mosque' documentary.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

34. Comment #56788 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 17, 2007 at 8:19 am

And I would urge everyone living in Britain to sign that petition. Because otherwise... And here's a little thing: 100 million of taxpayer pounds to build a Mosque? Gimme a break.

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35. Comment #56798 by Jiten on July 17, 2007 at 9:16 am

I don't know on what grounds we can prevent this from happening.Perhaps only on planning issues such as parking and traffic consequences.

Certainly not on grounds that it'll be likely that hate speech will be espoused there.How can the authorities know that? And anyway there are already plenty of mosques.It's not as if they're lacking in places where they can brainwash and radicalise young men.

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36. Comment #56805 by 3legcat on July 17, 2007 at 10:16 am

maybe Bechtel/Parsons Brinckerhoff will get the contract

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37. Comment #56819 by Vinelectric on July 17, 2007 at 12:07 pm

That's right Fanusi, let's stop Islam right in its tracks. I just can't take anymore of it. I'm so so angry. Huff Puff.

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38. Comment #56995 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 18, 2007 at 4:42 am

Vinelectric, have you bothered to examine what is preached in these Mosques? Or what the Qur'an actually teaches? Or what the Sira say? Or what Islamic jurisprudence says? Or what the Hadith say? Or the charter of HAMAS? Or the constitution of Hizb ut-Tahrir? Or Sayyid Qutb's "Milestones"? Or the writings of Hassan al-Banna?

Didn't think so. Because, you see, if you had, like myself, actually taken alook at at least some of this stuff, watched hatred being stuffed down the throats of children aged four, seen women being stoned to death while "Allahu Ackbar" screeches through the air - well, then you might understand my rage. But of course, you prefer to sit around and make idiotic comments. Much like Bill Maher's audience:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cmToGmw2DDw

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

39. Comment #57138 by MarkHW42 on July 18, 2007 at 11:10 am

I must say I'm fairly uncomfortable with Richard Dawkins' site promoting this petition.

Firstly, it's from the Daily Express. That should set alarm bells ringing from the off. I'm only surprised they didn't work Princess Diana in there somehow. ("Diana's Ghost Warns Against Mosque" maybe?)

Secondly, it appears the petition itself was started by the author of this charming little far-right blog:

http://english-rose-uk.blogspot.com/

I doubt her motives for protesting against this mosque have anything to do with atheism. Anybody feel the need to sign up for her "Equal Rights For Whites" petition?

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40. Comment #57144 by fonex_86 on July 18, 2007 at 11:41 am

People, as a citizen of a country in which Islam is a majority, I can back Fanusi's claims regarding what muslims are being taught by their imams, mullahs and the sort in your "friendly neigborhood mosque". And forget about "Undercover Mosque" -- there's nothing undercover about it where I am right now. They preach the crap at the top of their lungs, backed by several megaphones droning their prayers in everyone's ears 5 times a day.

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41. Comment #57189 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 18, 2007 at 1:59 pm

MarkHW42 - this is the unpleasant shape of things to come. I refer you to Sam Harris on The Death of Liberalism. Here is what he says:

>>The same failure of liberalism is evident in Western Europe, where the dogma of multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists. <<

And he goes on to say:

>>To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It does not bode well for the future of civilization. <<

Let me concretize that for a minute. I live in Britain. Now, I loathe the BNP - at least I don, when I'm not laughing at them. I disagree with every one of their p.o.v. - except one. Islam. They're right about this: there is no compromise, no quarter with people who preach the vicious nonsense of Islamic totalitarianism. It is going to be us or them.

And for this reason - if push comes to shove, if there's going to be a whip, I'd rather it is in the hands of the BNP than in those of Islam, not for any high-minded moral principles, but simply because I know I could manage under that system, whereas I wouldn't last five seconds under Islam. And this isn't something I can say just 'cause I'm white and half-british. Ask yourself for a minute what the fate of Hindus and Sikhs under Islam. And the BNP has been trying to reach out to Hindu and Sikh radicals.

To repeat what Sam Harris has said: This doesn't bode well for the future of civilisation.

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42. Comment #57204 by MarkHW42 on July 18, 2007 at 2:34 pm

Fanusi:

Your comments concern me. If there's going to be a whip, I'll do my utmost to remove that whip from whoever is holding it, be they Islamic extremists or BNP thugs.

The vast majority of the people using this mosque will be decent, law-abiding people, who just happen to be believe in a fairly ridiculous fairy story.

The prospect of the BNP holding a whip doesn't bode well for the future of civilisation either.

Other Comments by MarkHW42

43. Comment #57330 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 19, 2007 at 12:39 am

MarkHW42, I don't disagree. I do not want to bow to anyone. But life often doesn't give you nice choices. And with mainstream politicians refusing to deal with this threat, they may leave us with a choice between bad and unthinkably ghastly.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

44. Comment #57416 by david hartley on July 19, 2007 at 9:11 am

wise words in comment 24

it makes me very uneasy seeing articles from this paper printed on here considering its usual 'anti immigrant' rabble rousing...there is an agenda here which is not do with atheism.

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45. Comment #57611 by Mafathew on July 20, 2007 at 7:30 am

The first government response to this petition was posted on the 18th of May. This response (summed up in my own words) said "there is no reason to sign this petition as the entire suggestion is a lie".

I can't believe that people continued to sign up to it without reading all the information contained on the page which in matter of seconds would have told them there was no need to do so.

I'm sad to say that I added to the tally of petition signers. I'm glad to say that you will only find me listed if you search the full list of names for a name containing these words (not necessarily in this order) - "hoax", "this", "you", "is", "morons", "a".

I'd like to think that some people saw my entry on the list before they signed up and thought better of doing so. I doubt it very much though. It made me feel better at least.

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46. Comment #65208 by blowfishpasta on August 23, 2007 at 7:30 am

Please tell me where it says that we have to be as intolerant as believers, I guess that underneath it all we are all the same. I never thought that I would be hearing these type of views here, you know, mosque =ak and all that. Some people believe some silly doodoo and I suppose the others do to.

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