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Monday, July 23, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document In defense of dangerous ideas

by Steven Pinker

Reposted from:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/469317,CST-CONT-danger15.article

Thanks to Andy Thomson for sending this in.

In every age, taboo questions raise our blood pressure and threaten moral panic. But we cannot be afraid to answer them.

Do women, on average, have a different profile of aptitudes and emotions than men?

Were the events in the Bible fictitious -- not just the miracles, but those involving kings and empires?

Has the state of the environment improved in the last 50 years?

Do most victims of sexual abuse suffer no lifelong damage?

Did Native Americans engage in genocide and despoil the landscape?

Do men have an innate tendency to rape?

Did the crime rate go down in the 1990s because two decades earlier poor women aborted children who would have been prone to violence?

Are suicide terrorists well-educated, mentally healthy and morally driven?

Would the incidence of rape go down if prostitution were legalized?

Do African-American men have higher levels of testosterone, on average, than white men?

Is morality just a product of the evolution of our brains, with no inherent reality?

Would society be better off if heroin and cocaine were legalized?

Is homosexuality the symptom of an infectious disease?

Would it be consistent with our moral principles to give parents the option of euthanizing newborns with birth defects that would consign them to a life of pain and disability?

Do parents have any effect on the character or intelligence of their children?

Have religions killed a greater proportion of people than Nazism?

Would damage from terrorism be reduced if the police could torture suspects in special circumstances?

Would Africa have a better chance of rising out of poverty if it hosted more polluting industries or accepted Europe's nuclear waste?

Is the average intelligence of Western nations declining because duller people are having more children than smarter people?

Would unwanted children be better off if there were a market in adoption rights, with babies going to the highest bidder?

Would lives be saved if we instituted a free market in organs for transplantation?

Should people have the right to clone themselves, or enhance the genetic traits of their children?

Perhaps you can feel your blood pressure rise as you read these questions. Perhaps you are appalled that people can so much as think such things. Perhaps you think less of me for bringing them up. These are dangerous ideas -- ideas that are denounced not because they are self-evidently false, nor because they advocate harmful action, but because they are thought to corrode the prevailing moral order.

Think about it

By "dangerous ideas" I don't have in mind harmful technologies, like those behind weapons of mass destruction, or evil ideologies, like those of racist, fascist or other fanatical cults. I have in mind statements of fact or policy that are defended with evidence and argument by serious scientists and thinkers but which are felt to challenge the collective decency of an age. The ideas listed above, and the moral panic that each one of them has incited during the past quarter century, are examples. Writers who have raised ideas like these have been vilified, censored, fired, threatened and in some cases physically assaulted.

Every era has its dangerous ideas. For millennia, the monotheistic religions have persecuted countless heresies, together with nuisances from science such as geocentrism, biblical archeology, and the theory of evolution. We can be thankful that the punishments have changed from torture and mutilation to the canceling of grants and the writing of vituperative reviews. But intellectual intimidation, whether by sword or by pen, inevitably shapes the ideas that are taken seriously in a given era, and the rear-view mirror of history presents us with a warning.

Time and again, people have invested factual claims with ethical implications that today look ludicrous. The fear that the structure of our solar system has grave moral consequences is a venerable example, and the foisting of "intelligent design" on biology students is a contemporary one. These travesties should lead us to ask whether the contemporary intellectual mainstream might be entertaining similar moral delusions. Are we enraged by our own infidels and heretics whom history may some day vindicate?

Unsettling possibilities

Dangerous ideas are likely to confront us at an increasing rate and we are ill equipped to deal with them. When done right, science (together with other truth-seeking institutions, such as history and journalism) characterizes the world as it is, without regard to whose feelings get hurt. Science in particular has always been a source of heresy, and today the galloping advances in touchy areas like genetics, evolution and the environment sciences are bound to throw unsettling possibilities at us. Moreover, the rise of globalization and the Internet are allowing heretics to find one another and work around the barriers of traditional media and academic journals. I also suspect that a change in generational sensibilities will hasten the process. The term "political correctness" captures the 1960s conception of moral rectitude that we baby boomers brought with us as we took over academia, journalism and government. In my experience, today's students -- black and white, male and female -- are bewildered by the idea, common among their parents, that certain scientific opinions are immoral or certain questions too hot to handle.

What makes an idea "dangerous"? One factor is an imaginable train of events in which acceptance of the idea could lead to an outcome recognized as harmful. In religious societies, the fear is that if people ever stopped believing in the literal truth of the Bible they would also stop believing in the authority of its moral commandments. That is, if today people dismiss the part about God creating the Earth in six days, tomorrow they'll dismiss the part about "Thou shalt not kill." In progressive circles, the fear is that if people ever were to acknowledge any differences between races, sexes or individuals, they would feel justified in discrimination or oppression. Other dangerous ideas set off fears that people will neglect or abuse their children, become indifferent to the environment, devalue human life, accept violence and prematurely resign themselves to social problems that could be solved with sufficient commitment and optimism.

All these outcomes, needless to say, would be deplorable. But none of them actually follows from the supposedly dangerous idea. Even if it turns out, for instance, that groups of people are different in their averages, the overlap is certainly so great that it would be irrational and unfair to discriminate against individuals on that basis. Likewise, even if it turns out that parents don't have the power to shape their children's personalities, it would be wrong on grounds of simple human decency to abuse or neglect one's children. And if currently popular ideas about how to improve the environment are shown to be ineffective, it only highlights the need to know what would be effective.

Another contributor to the perception of dangerousness is the intellectual blinkers that humans tend to don when they split into factions. People have a nasty habit of clustering in coalitions, professing certain beliefs as badges of their commitment to the coalition and treating rival coalitions as intellectually unfit and morally depraved. Debates between members of the coalitions can make things even worse, because when the other side fails to capitulate to one's devastating arguments, it only proves they are immune to reason. In this regard, it's disconcerting to see the two institutions that ought to have the greatest stake in ascertaining the truth -- academia and government -- often blinkered by morally tinged ideologies. One ideology is that humans are blank slates and that social problems can be handled only through government programs that especially redress the perfidy of European males. Its opposite number is that morality inheres in patriotism and Christian faith and that social problems may be handled only by government policies that punish the sins of individual evildoers. New ideas, nuanced ideas, hybrid ideas -- and sometimes dangerous ideas -- often have trouble getting a hearing against these group-bonding convictions.

The conviction that honest opinions can be dangerous may even arise from a feature of human nature. Philip Tetlock and Alan Fiske have argued that certain human relationships are constituted on a basis of unshakeable convictions. We love our children and parents, are faithful to our spouses, stand by our friends, contribute to our communities, and are loyal to our coalitions not because we continually question and evaluate the merits of these commitments but because we feel them in our bones. A person who spends too much time pondering whether logic and fact really justify a commitment to one of these relationships is seen as just not "getting it." Decent people don't carefully weigh the advantages and disadvantages of selling their children or selling out their friends or their spouses or their colleagues or their country. They reject these possibilities outright; they "don't go there." So the taboo on questioning sacred values make sense in the context of personal relationships. It makes far less sense in the context of discovering how the world works or running a country.

Explore all relevant ideas

Should we treat some ideas as dangerous? Let's exclude outright lies, deceptive propaganda, incendiary conspiracy theories from malevolent crackpots and technological recipes for wanton destruction. Consider only ideas about the truth of empirical claims or the effectiveness of policies that, if they turned out to be true, would require a significant rethinking of our moral sensibilities. And consider ideas that, if they turn out to be false, could lead to harm if people believed them to be true. In either case, we don't know whether they are true or false a priori, so only by examining and debating them can we find out. Finally, let's assume that we're not talking about burning people at the stake or cutting out their tongues but about discouraging their research and giving their ideas as little publicity as possible. There is a good case for exploring all ideas relevant to our current concerns, no matter where they lead. The idea that ideas should be discouraged a priori is inherently self-refuting. Indeed, it is the ultimate arrogance, as it assumes that one can be so certain about the goodness and truth of one's own ideas that one is entitled to discourage other people's opinions from even being examined.

Also, it's hard to imagine any aspect of public life where ignorance or delusion is better than an awareness of the truth, even an unpleasant one. Only children and madmen engage in "magical thinking," the fallacy that good things can come true by believing in them or bad things will disappear by ignoring them or wishing them away. Rational adults want to know the truth, because any action based on false premises will not have the effects they desire. Worse, logicians tell us that a system of ideas containing a contradiction can be used to deduce any statement whatsoever, no matter how absurd. Since ideas are connected to other ideas, sometimes in circuitous and unpredictable ways, choosing to believe something that may not be true, or even maintaining walls of ignorance around some topic, can corrupt all of intellectual life, proliferating error far and wide. In our everyday lives, would we want to be lied to, or kept in the dark by paternalistic "protectors," when it comes to our health or finances or even the weather? In public life, imagine someone saying that we should not do research into global warming or energy shortages because if it found that they were serious the consequences for the economy would be extremely unpleasant. Today's leaders who tacitly take this position are rightly condemned by intellectually responsible people. But why should other unpleasant ideas be treated differently?

There is another argument against treating ideas as dangerous. Many of our moral and political policies are designed to preempt what we know to be the worst features of human nature. The checks and balances in a democracy, for instance, were invented in explicit recognition of the fact that human leaders will always be tempted to arrogate power to themselves. Likewise, our sensitivity to racism comes from an awareness that groups of humans, left to their own devices, are apt to discriminate and oppress other groups, often in ugly ways. History also tells us that a desire to enforce dogma and suppress heretics is a recurring human weakness, one that has led to recurring waves of gruesome oppression and violence. A recognition that there is a bit of Torquemada in everyone should make us wary of any attempt to enforce a consensus or demonize those who challenge it.

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant," according to Justice Louis Brandeis' famous case for freedom of thought and expression. If an idea really is false, only by examining it openly can we determine that it is false. At that point we will be in a better position to convince others that it is false than if we had let it fester in private, since our very avoidance of the issue serves as a tacit acknowledgment that it may be true. And if an idea is true, we had better accommodate our moral sensibilities to it, since no good can come from sanctifying a delusion. This might even be easier than the ideaphobes fear. The moral order did not collapse when the Earth was shown not to be at the center of the solar system, and so it will survive other revisions of our understanding of how the world works.

Dangerous to air dangerous ideas?

In the best Talmudic tradition of arguing a position as forcefully as possible and then switching sides, let me now present the case for discouraging certain lines of intellectual inquiry. Two of the contributors to this volume (Gopnik and Hillis) offer as their "dangerous idea" the exact opposite of Gilbert's: They say that it's a dangerous idea for thinkers to air their dangerous ideas. How might such an argument play out?

First, one can remind people that we are all responsible for the foreseeable consequences of our actions, and that includes the consequences of our public statements. Freedom of inquiry may be an important value, according to this argument, but it is not an absolute value, one that overrides all others. We know that the world is full of malevolent and callous people who will use any pretext to justify their bigotry or destructiveness. We must expect that they will seize on the broaching of a topic that seems in sympathy with their beliefs as a vindication of their agenda.

Not only can the imprimatur of scientific debate add legitimacy to toxic ideas, but the mere act of making an idea common knowledge can change its effects. Individuals, for instance, may harbor a private opinion on differences between genders or among ethnic groups but keep it to themselves because of its opprobrium. But once the opinion is aired in public, they may be emboldened to act on their prejudice -- not just because it has been publicly ratified but because they must anticipate that everyone else will act on the information. Some people, for example, might discriminate against the members of an ethnic group despite having no pejorative opinion about them, in the expectation that their customers or colleagues will have such opinions and that defying them would be costly. And then there are the effects of these debates on the confidence of the members of the stigmatized groups themselves.

Of course, academics can warn against these abuses, but the qualifications and nitpicking they do for a living may not catch up with the simpler formulations that run on swifter legs. Even if they did, their qualifications might be lost on the masses. We shouldn't count on ordinary people to engage in the clear thinking -- some would say the hair-splitting -- that would be needed to accept a dangerous idea but not its terrible consequence. Our overriding precept, in intellectual life as in medicine, should be "First, do no harm."

We must be especially suspicious when the danger in a dangerous idea is to someone other than its advocate. Scientists, scholars and writers are members of a privileged elite. They may have an interest in promulgating ideas that justify their privileges, that blame or make light of society's victims, or that earn them attention for cleverness and iconoclasm. Even if one has little sympathy for the cynical Marxist argument that ideas are always advanced to serve the interest of the ruling class, the ordinary skepticism of a tough-minded intellectual should make one wary of "dangerous" hypotheses that are no skin off the nose of their hypothesizers.

(The mind-set that leads us to blind review, open debate and statements of possible conflicts of interest.)

But don't the demands of rationality always compel us to seek the complete truth? Not necessarily. Rational agents often choose to be ignorant. They may decide not to be in a position where they can receive a threat or be exposed to a sensitive secret. They may choose to avoid being asked an incriminating question, where one answer is damaging, another is dishonest and a failure to answer is grounds for the questioner to assume the worst (hence the Fifth Amendment protection against being forced to testify against oneself). Scientists test drugs in double-blind studies in which they keep themselves from knowing who got the drug and who got the placebo, and they referee manuscripts anonymously for the same reason. Many people rationally choose not to know the gender of their unborn child, or whether they carry a gene for Huntington's disease, or whether their nominal father is genetically related to them. Perhaps a similar logic would call for keeping socially harmful information out of the public sphere.

Intolerance of unpopular ideas

As for restrictions on inquiry, every scientist already lives with them. They accede, for example, to the decisions of committees for the protection of human subjects and to policies on the confidentiality of personal information. In 1975, biologists imposed a moratorium on research on recombinant DNA pending the development of safeguards against the release of dangerous microorganisms. The notion that intellectuals have carte blanche in conducting their inquiry is a myth.

Though I am more sympathetic to the argument that important ideas be aired than to the argument that they should sometimes be suppressed, I think it is a debate we need to have. Whether we like it or not, science has a habit of turning up discomfiting thoughts, and the Internet has a habit of blowing their cover.

Tragically, there are few signs that the debates will happen in the place where we might most expect it: academia. Though academics owe the extraordinary perquisite of tenure to the ideal of encouraging free inquiry and the evaluation of unpopular ideas, all too often academics are the first to try to quash them. The most famous recent example is the outburst of fury and disinformation that resulted when Harvard president Lawrence Summers gave a measured analysis of the multiple causes of women's underrepresentation in science and math departments in elite universities and tentatively broached the possibility that discrimination and hidden barriers were not the only cause.

But intolerance of unpopular ideas among academics is an old story. Books like Morton Hunt's The New Know-Nothings and Alan Kors and Harvey Silverglate's The Shadow University have depressingly shown that universities cannot be counted on to defend the rights of their own heretics and that it's often the court system or the press that has to drag them into policies of tolerance. In government, the intolerance is even more frightening, because the ideas considered there are not just matters of intellectual sport but have immediate and sweeping consequences. Chris Mooney, in The Republican War on Science, joins Hunt in showing how corrupt and demagogic legislators are increasingly stifling research findings they find inconvenient to their interests.

Steven Pinker is professor in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University. His new book, The Stuff of Thought, will be out in September.

Tell us what you think

This essay was first posted at Edge (www.edge.org) and is reprinted with permission. It is the Preface to the book 'What Is Your Dangerous Idea?: Today's Leading Thinkers on the Unthinkable,' published by HarperCollins. Write to controversy@suntimes.com.

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1. Comment #58109 by steve99 on July 23, 2007 at 2:17 pm

 avatar
Is homosexuality the symptom of an infectious disease?


I really wish he had not included this one. It is dumb. He would have to postulate an infectious disease that had precisely the same symptoms in all great ape species, in most mammals, even in birds.

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2. Comment #58111 by Quetzalcoatl on July 23, 2007 at 2:28 pm

 avatar
Is homosexuality the symptom of an infectious disease?


No, you pillock. That's just stupid.

Sometimes dangerous ideas are easily answered.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

3. Comment #58113 by Smith on July 23, 2007 at 2:35 pm

 avatarsteve99 wrote:
He would have to postulate an infectious disease that had precisely the same symptoms in all great ape species, in most mammals, even in birds.


Maybe Pinker didn't mean to ask: Is homosexuality the symptom of an infectious disease that in fact is the only cause for homosexuality?

Other Comments by Smith

4. Comment #58114 by Dr Benway on July 23, 2007 at 2:39 pm

 avatarOr it may be the case that homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is the consequence of several developmental factors, and in some cases, infection alters at least one of those factors in such a way that homosexuality is more likely. This mechanism would not require a "gay bug" causing gayness across species. Just some immune response altering something like testosterone levels at a crucial developmental moment.

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5. Comment #58115 by DV82XL on July 23, 2007 at 2:42 pm

It's a valid 'dangerous idea' because it is outside the norm, it doesn't need to be right.

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6. Comment #58116 by Quetzalcoatl on July 23, 2007 at 2:42 pm

 avatarI thought one of the postulated mechanisms for homosexuality was males who have parts of the brain linked to desires and attractions that have developed in a more female way. Sorry for that terrible sentence, but the hour is late and I only half remember it. It's very unlikely that you could raise someone who's gay to be straight, and vice versa. That's why these fundamentalist "We can make you straight for $1000" camps can never work.

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7. Comment #58117 by Quetzalcoatl on July 23, 2007 at 2:48 pm

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Or it may be the case that homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is the consequence of several developmental factors, and in some cases, infection alters at least one of those factors in such a way that homosexuality is more likely. This mechanism would not require a "gay bug" causing gayness across species. Just some immune response altering something like testosterone levels at a crucial developmental moment.


It's an interesting idea, but surely by now somebody would have spotted a correlation?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

8. Comment #58119 by baal on July 23, 2007 at 2:49 pm

...OK, apart from the seemingly ridiculous question about homosexuality, what do you think of the article? :-)

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9. Comment #58120 by Smith on July 23, 2007 at 2:54 pm

 avatarCan we ask: Is heterosexuality the symptom of an infectious meme?

The answer is probably yes, just looking at all those high-profile closet-gay pastors and republicans being haunted by that sodomy meme.

Other Comments by Smith

10. Comment #58122 by Dr Benway on July 23, 2007 at 2:55 pm

 avatar
It's an interesting idea, but surely by now somebody would have spotted a correlation?
Hehehe. Welcome to the fascinating realm of neuropsychiatry, where the graphs are so fuzzy, we must hide them from the physicists lest they beat the living shit out of us.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

11. Comment #58123 by Quetzalcoatl on July 23, 2007 at 3:00 pm

 avatarAh, quantum graphs, I've heard of them. Like electrons where you can only see vector or position, not both, with these graphs you can only see one axis at a time, and they tend to change when you're not looking!

On a more serious note, I would have thought it would be difficult to prove a correlation, given that genes can have multiple functions according to how they're expressed. Or am I just talking out of my arse, Dr?

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12. Comment #58125 by gr8hands on July 23, 2007 at 3:06 pm

His "dangerous to air dangerous ideas" section is weak, but only because the arguments themselves are weak, and it is clear that he doesn't really believe in them.

However, he is right in that it should be debated -- which, of course, defeats the purpose of not airing dangerous ideas.

Other Comments by gr8hands

13. Comment #58128 by Dr Benway on July 23, 2007 at 3:19 pm

 avatar
I would have thought it would be difficult to prove a correlation....
Yes, because the correlation between any proposed cause and its effect is so low in the behavioral sciences. It's a muddle that's going take a long time to sort.

Example: If one identical twin is schizophrenic, there's about a 40% chance the other twin will be schizophrenic. What's accounting for the 60% who don't get schizophrenia, in spite of having all the same genes? Dunno.

You can publish in medicine even if your study might be the result of chance 1/20 times. For comparison, they don't let the physicists publish unless they've got results that couldn't happen by chance 1/10,000.

Physicists predict things using quantum mechanics, and get results matching to within 1/100,000. That's 100% correlation, from where I'm sitting. Behavioral science will never be that good.

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14. Comment #58133 by Mushroom on July 23, 2007 at 3:38 pm

Excellent article. Airing dangerous ideas in public is extremely difficult to do sensitively, but it's gotta be done.

It's nitpicking a bit, but this line was silly.
logicians tell us that a system of ideas containing a contradiction can be used to deduce any statement whatsoever, no matter how absurd

That's only true because "x implies y" in logic is defined to be always true when x is false, so e.g. "the pope shits in the woods" implies "the bible is true" is a true proposition. All this means is that logical "implies" doesn't capture the meaning of implication in normal English, as Pinker surely knows.

As for the homosexuality question, I don't think it's ridiculous on its face. As others have pointed out, an affirmative answer wouldn't rule out other causes of homosexuality. Wikipedia can't be considered a reliable source for such a controversial topic, but it has an interesting discussion if you're interested

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_theory_of_homosexuality

Other Comments by Mushroom

15. Comment #58140 by NMcC on July 23, 2007 at 4:20 pm

I'm not a big fan of Pinker having once heard him say that, when he was younger, he viewed the police as oppressors as he believed people were basically good and needed no coercion from the state authorities to behave well. This idealism of his, however, was shattered when the police in Toronto (I think it was there) went on strike for a day and loads of people used the opportunity to loot shops. Pinker was, apparently, amazed at the fact that poor people would take things from shops whenever the fear of arrest was removed, but he neglected to see any significance in the fact that rich people didn't feel the need to do likewise.

Now, he hands us this gem:

"Even if one has little sympathy for the cynical Marxist argument that ideas are always advanced to serve the interest of the ruling class...."

Really? This is a (cynical) 'Marxist' idea is it? It's the first I've heard of it. How on earth did the whole body of socialist ideas (most of which were in existence before Marx knew about them) get promulgated then, through mind reading?

What Pinker means to say, I presume, is that the ideas of the ruling class, according to Marx, are the generally accepted ideas of a particular epoch since the class that has the material means of production at its disposal tends to have the major means of mental production at its disposal as well.

But that is nothing like what Pinker is here claiming.

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16. Comment #58141 by Damien White on July 23, 2007 at 4:21 pm

Some years ago in Britain Enoch Powell was pilloried for asking questions about the validity of Asian immigration into the UK. Today, it seems to be a dangerous idea to even acknowledge that he may have been proven right.

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17. Comment #58144 by JohnF on July 23, 2007 at 4:32 pm

 avatar". Comment #58109 by steve99 on July 23, 2007 at 2:17 pm

Is homosexuality the symptom of an infectious disease?



I really wish he had not included this one. It is dumb. He would have to postulate an infectious disease that had precisely the same symptoms in all great ape species, in most mammals, even in birds.
"

The whole article went right over your head, back to the shallow end for you.

Other Comments by JohnF

18. Comment #58150 by jonecc on July 23, 2007 at 5:17 pm

Enoch Powell was a spiteful bigot, and has not been proven right. He argued that different races would be unable to live together without descending into a state of permanent conflict, and the history of the last twenty years shows him to have been dead wrong.

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19. Comment #58161 by steve99 on July 23, 2007 at 6:34 pm

 avatar
The whole article went right over your head, back to the shallow end for you.


It seems my comment went over *your* head. The point of the article was to list statements that *may* be right, but are perhaps not discussed because they are too controversial.

Suggesting that homosexuality could be caused by a disease, when it arises in so many forms in so many species, is extremely poor science, so including it seriously diminishes quality of an otherwise interesting article.

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20. Comment #58164 by Dr Benway on July 23, 2007 at 7:03 pm

 avatar
Suggesting that homosexuality could be caused by a disease...
Well the question is badly worded, as it suggests homosexuality is a disease. I'd have preferred, "Might infection or immune reaction during development contribute to human sexual orientation?"

I know of no data to suggest this might be the case, BTW.

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21. Comment #58165 by steve99 on July 23, 2007 at 7:10 pm

 avatar
"Might infection or immune reaction during development contribute to human sexual orientation?"

"Might infection or immune reaction during development contribute to human sexual orientation?"
Very unlikely, I would have thought. Frequencies of homosexuality seem to be pretty constant throughout history and cultures. An infection is unlikely to be so regular.

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22. Comment #58166 by Dr Benway on July 23, 2007 at 7:36 pm

 avatarI think twin studies for homosexuality have concordance rates of about 40-50%. So the environment is chipping in for about half the cause.

What are environmental factors? Oh, gosh. Let's see. Off the top:
- Birth trauma
- Toxins
- Nutrition
- Infection
- Education
- SES
- Travel
- Stress
- Peer pressure
- Religion
- Oops! Nearly forgot about mom.

Infection early in life is an environmental factor on the table for stuff like sexual orientation, OCD, Tourette's, language delays, mathematical ability, schizophrenia, kitchen sink, etc.

How to get around your excellent point re: rates being constant over time and place:
- infectious agent accounts for only 10% of the environmental contribution
- prevalence of infectious agent is relatively constant
- effect on sexuality only noted if infectious agent hits at specific moment in development
- sixteen different infectious agents may have the same effect on sexuality

Lots of ways that a genuine causal factor can get buried in noisy data.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

23. Comment #58167 by VinceMcD on July 23, 2007 at 7:42 pm

 avatarI don't think the point is to debate the "dangerous ideas" here; however the author raises a great point.

I believe that discussions about these topics need be happen no matter how outlandish. It first serves to debunk those ideas based in horse shit, secondly it will educate and expose others to reason so that we understand why an idea is crap, and not just dogmatically regurgitating what we heard on a sound bite or the moron next door told us.

Idealistic tangent: if more people practiced this type of discourse we may just make some headway and open a few minds.
[taps shoes together 3 times and hopes]

Other Comments by VinceMcD

24. Comment #58175 by Fire1974 on July 23, 2007 at 9:33 pm

A dangerous idea might be, "Are people of Eurasian decent intellectually superior to other ethnicities, given that Eurasians were the first to develop written language and farming, as well as conquer four other continents ect.?"

The wrong way to answer this question is to immediately brandish it as elitist racism (even though it is).

The right way would be how Jared Diamond investigates it scientifically, (read Guns, Germs and Steel). He discovers that geography and natural recourses have everything to do with it and not the organisms(us) themselves. Hence there is no evidence for a racial/ethnic precursor to greater intelligence.

The point Pinker is making is that we should REALLY answer these questions and not let reactionary thinking hinder science and inquiry.

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25. Comment #58176 by Damien White on July 23, 2007 at 9:55 pm

jonecc, as it was not my intention to start an argument, but rather to point out a 'dangerous idea' which might be worthy of discussion on an atheist's forum, i'll perhaps word my comment a little better.
Enoch Powell suggested that a large amount of Asian immigration into Britain might not be a good idea as it would bring two cultures into close proximity, and that the inability of those cultures to adapt to each other would cause tensions and violence.
And this is precisely what has occurred. Islamic fundamentalists are now killing people. How was Enoch wrong?

Other Comments by Damien White

26. Comment #58177 by Russell Blackford on July 23, 2007 at 9:55 pm

What's not clear to me is how much the questions listed match the actual "dangerous ideas" in the book.

More generally, Pinker is clearly right except for one odd thing. It's news to me that baby boomers are more PC than Generations X and Y. That seems to be Pinker's anecdotal experience, but it doesn't really match mine.

I think that the degree to which intellectuals are willing to entertain non-PC dangerous ideas has more to do with factors other than age, and if anything my Gen X friends and acquaintances strike me as more PC than my boomer ones. After all, boomers grew up during or shortly after the 1960s sexual revolution, which was not a PC time; PC, with its big streak of puritanism, is as much a reaction against the sexual revolution as a continuation of it. Not sure about Gen Y, but a lot of teenagers and twenty-somethings seem to be at least as close-minded as their parents. I don't really see the contrast that Pinker does between PC boomers (like him and me, presumably) and their bemused Gen Y kids or students.

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27. Comment #58179 by logical on July 23, 2007 at 11:29 pm

 avatarYes, each of the abovementioned ideas is dangerous, because each can be used as justification (and some are put this way).
There are ideas (or better connections between facts) which should be worded very carefully.
Causal explanation is not the same as justification!!!
The example to put homosexuality as "infectious disease" is a good one, because if people who want sex with people of their own gender can detect early in their lives that this is so and live these relationships they have no children by accident and probably only a small number of wanted ones. The outcome of a description in the usual (oldfashioned?) hereditary way is clear - and the conclusion that there are so many because the religions have enforced heterosexual lifestyles without any birth control for so long is easy to see. Using the concept of "infection" turns this around to promote censorship and/or invokes the use of the penal law system.
(Apply the effect to rapists...)

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28. Comment #58181 by alovrin on July 23, 2007 at 11:49 pm

 avatarI get his point about not being afraid to ask difficult questions.
But about 60% of these questions are just plain silly, and often badly worded.
My blood pressure doesnt go up, but my eyes roll in a derisive manner.

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29. Comment #58184 by sbooder on July 23, 2007 at 11:54 pm

 avatarI think some of you better read the article again because you seem to have missed the point.

The questions at the beginning of the article are not the authors stand point, but devices meant to illustrate the premise of the article.

Take the Homosexual question (which you all seem to have picked on). The author is not saying that homosexuality is caused by disease, but rather if someone comes up with the question is homosexuality caused by disease should it be dismissed just because our knee jerk reaction is governed by a moral sense of outrage at the very question its self, or should we give air and time to address the question, no matter how abhorrent we might think it to be; on the bases that addressing the question may; no matter how ugly it may be, found to be true ( and no I am not saying it is true), but should we ignore questions just because we do not like them?

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30. Comment #58188 by pewkatchoo on July 24, 2007 at 12:34 am

 avatarjonecc
Enoch Powell was a spiteful bigot, and has not been proven right. He argued that different races would be unable to live together without descending into a state of permanent conflict, and the history of the last twenty years shows him to have been dead wrong.

Really. I think that this article also went straight over your head. Powell aired a dangerous idea and was pilloried for it. So much so that the actual problems that did eventually arise were not even considered. I would postulate that Powell was probably half-right, but the reaction against what he said made it impossible to challenge the wisdom of uncontrolled immigration without being labelled racist. The major problems, of course, have arisen not because of skin colour but because of religious and cultural differences. So Powell was sort of right. The problem is that because it was a politician saying it, and not a respected "social scientist" (I don't normally use quotes to denote significance) his ideas were totally rejected without any honest enquiry. We might have saved ourselves a lot of grief if we had at least taken it a bit more seriously.

Just because you don't like the messenger or the message does not necessarilly invalidate it.

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31. Comment #58190 by steve99 on July 24, 2007 at 1:13 am

 avatar
The author is not saying that homosexuality is caused by disease, but rather if someone comes up with the question is homosexuality caused by disease


The problem is that, no matter what the context, this question stands out as one that can pretty easily be answered: to a reasonable degree of certainty - no!

The others are far from easy to answer. That was the power of the other questions - are we refusing to answer them out of how we feel about the questions?

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32. Comment #58192 by sbooder on July 24, 2007 at 1:28 am

 avatarThis is probably on the place of this discussion to prevail but I will say this and maybe start a new topic on this point alone.

Powell was only correct by default. His Rivers of Blood speech; which is what I think jonecc is referring to, was based on a purely race bases and not religion.

The late 80's and early 90's started to prove Powell wrong, with the growth in the youth ideal of a multi cultured society, where fashion comedy and music were the social desires of the young.

But then in the late 90,s and into the 21st Century; Islamic Jihaad reared its ugly head, this changed the whole social landscape in Britain and has brought about segregation to an extent that has not been seen since the early 1900's when in cities like Liverpool and Newcastle; Protestant and Catholic divides brought about pitch battles on the streets on St Patrick's Day each year by Irish immigrants. This however was harder to recognise before the event because they were of the same race. The problem today is more explosive because Islamic believers be them Jihaad or not are predominantly of Asian extraction, and the sorry fact is; we tent to work on a visual bases and not one based on knowledge or understanding.

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33. Comment #58193 by sbooder on July 24, 2007 at 1:30 am

 avatarsteve99
"The problem is that, no matter what the context, this question stands out as one that can pretty easily be answered: to a reasonable degree of certainty - no!"

On what evidence is that statement based?

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34. Comment #58194 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 1:45 am

 avatarAdmittedly, Enoch Powell was well before my time. The main thing I know about him is "The Rivers of Blood" speech for which he quite rightly got pilloried. Wasn't he a Fascist anyway?

The "dangerous ideas" are only dangerous in the sense that they go against the prevailing view. In that regard, they should be discussed. The difficulty is in differentiating between discussable ideas and ideas that are just stupid, unreasonable and/or bigoted.

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35. Comment #58195 by nickthelight on July 24, 2007 at 1:52 am

 avatarWhy are so many people disturbed by Mr Pinkers remarks regarding homosexuality? Such reactions kind of prove his point.

Also; since there is no evolutionary advantage to homosexuality, and in fact it is a great disadvangate if your a gene, why is it not an abnormality? This in itself has nothing to do with our social perceptions of homosexuals.

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36. Comment #58196 by phil rimmer on July 24, 2007 at 1:57 am

 avatarSteve,

Why not propose an alternative question regarding homosexuality by way of illustration? Something repellant but feasible. Those of us annoyed by Pinker's lack of quality control can mentally cut and paste your proposal? :)

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37. Comment #58198 by Bonzai on July 24, 2007 at 2:17 am

 avatarWell of course all ideas, no matter how outrageous, should be discussed and raised. The citizens of our great republic are fair minded people swayed only by logic and science and our media always do a good job in presenting complex arguments and ideas.

Even though I am an able body, white, heterosexual male tenured professor of an ivey league university, I can empathize with minority, women,the disabled and gays. I am a liberal. There is no such thing as racist and homophobic topic. This is just knee jerk PC-ism. I have faith in my fellow citizens that all ideas can be discussed with academic objectivity. I assure you that no one should worry about social consequences based on my experience. You see, I raise diffcult issues with my students all the time in my philosophy classes. Last week we discussed whether evolution demanded that the disabled be euthanized, it was an stimulating and fun debate.

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38. Comment #58199 by phil rimmer on July 24, 2007 at 2:18 am

 avatar28. Comment #58181 by alovrin

I agree that many of Pinker's questions are not as well formulated or even as transgressive as they could be. I issue a challenge to all to produce better questions to illustrate Pinker's thesis.

Some of Pinker's questions are only transgressive because of their phrasing (presuming one outcome rather than its converse, for instance).

I think it would be a useful excercise as I think a lot of the meat of the discussion to be had centres on what are valid questions in the first place and what is transgressive and to whom.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

39. Comment #58202 by phil rimmer on July 24, 2007 at 2:25 am

 avatar
Last week we were discussing whether evolution demanded that the disabled be euthanized, it was an stimulating and fun debate.


But should you get a research grant to follow it up?

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40. Comment #58203 by steve99 on July 24, 2007 at 2:29 am

 avatar
Why not propose an alternative question regarding homosexuality by way of illustration? Something repellant but feasible.


Good suggestion. How about this:

"Homosexuality, though natural, should be banned because it spreads disease so effectively"

I don't believe if myself, as I am gay, but I think it is a far better question.

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41. Comment #58204 by sbooder on July 24, 2007 at 2:30 am

 avatar"37. Comment #58198 by Bonzai on July 24, 2007 at 2:17 am"

Mr Bonzai,
Hear hear!

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42. Comment #58207 by pewkatchoo on July 24, 2007 at 2:51 am

 avatarSteve99
Why did you add the codicil 'though natural'? It is surely superfluous in the context of its purpose and really only reflects your own particular bias. You have to be careful with these things. Also, the statement should be phrased as a question.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

43. Comment #58210 by sbooder on July 24, 2007 at 3:03 am

 avatar"Homosexuality, though natural, should be banned because it spreads disease so effectively"


That Sir is a loaded question.

If I play devils advocate here for a second.

If anyone takes up an argument, they first have to agree on the question to be argued.

So if I agree to argue the point I would be agreeing to argue the point with the phrase "though natural" which would leave me as the arguer nowhere to go, because soon as I said yes that is correct Homosexuality, though natural, should be banned because it spreads disease so effectively, your reply will be, is not heterosexuality natural and is it not just as effective at spreading disease.

In the real world (and let me state this is in no way my own proclivity) is it true that most of the homophobic arguments are based on its unnaturalness, and therefore are you not immediately loading the question to suit your own ends.

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44. Comment #58211 by pewkatchoo on July 24, 2007 at 3:06 am

 avatarsbooder
"That Sir is a loaded question."

That is exactly what it is not. It is a statement not a question.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

45. Comment #58212 by sbooder on July 24, 2007 at 3:11 am

 avatarsemantics.

any statement that has opposing views is automatically a question.

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46. Comment #58213 by phil rimmer on July 24, 2007 at 3:26 am

 avatarSo, perhaps..

"Should homosexual acts be made illegal because they spread disease so effectively?"?

Banning homosexuality isn't feasible unless we want to bundle them with Bonzai's disabled and euthanize them all....

This question has all sorts of sneaky aspects related to heterosexual behaviour, issues of fidelity and marriage etc. etc.

Or, how about...

"Should people with gratuitously obscene surnames be made to change them by deedpole?" :)

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47. Comment #58224 by MagratGarlick on July 24, 2007 at 4:13 am

"Last week we discussed whether evolution demanded that the disabled be euthanized, it was an stimulating and fun debate"


I think this sums up the whole problem with this 'dangerous ideas' business that people seem to be missing. The statement above employs the naturalistic fallacy. The question it asks can be immediately amswered, "No of course not, you idiot, evolution doesn't 'demand' anything because it is descriptive, not normative".

Most of these 'dangerous questions' contain normative, subjective, value-driven assumptions. Without those value driven assumptions, the sensible answer to most of them would be "What difference does it make one way or the other?"

Other Comments by MagratGarlick

48. Comment #58227 by MagratGarlick on July 24, 2007 at 4:21 am

-The "dangerous ideas" are only dangerous in the sense that they go against the prevailing view.-


Actually, most of these 'ideas' ARE the prevailing view. Like the one about men and women being inherently different. That is actually something that most people accept without question. The REALLY dangerous idea is the theory that all the 'obvious' differences between male and female humans can be attributed to socialisation.

Until we have a sample of male and female humans who have not been subjected to any differences in their upbringing whatsoever, an experiment which is not only unethical but impossible, we will never know.

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49. Comment #58232 by Frying Pantheist on July 24, 2007 at 4:41 am

 avatar[quote="mushroom"]It's nitpicking a bit, but this line was silly.

logicians tell us that a system of ideas containing a contradiction can be used to deduce any statement whatsoever, no matter how absurd


That's only true because "x implies y" in logic is defined to be always true when x is false, so e.g. "the pope shits in the woods" implies "the bible is true" is a true proposition. All this means is that logical "implies" doesn't capture the meaning of implication in normal English, as Pinker surely knows.[/quote]

You don't need to use "implies" in this counter-intuitive sense (Indeed it doesn't work, since "X -> Y" does not imply Y), suppose we start off with

(1) X = TRUE,
(2) NOT X = TRUE

and we want to prove that Y is true. Y is logically equivalent to:

(3) (Y OR X) AND (Y OR NOT X).

But from (1) and (2) we know that each of the OR statements contains a true proposition and so (3) is equivalent to

(4) (Y OR TRUE) AND (Y OR TRUE).

An OR statement is true if either of the propositions is true, an AND statement is true if both are true and so (4), and hence Y, is equivalent to

(5) TRUE AND TRUE,
(6) TRUE.

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50. Comment #58238 by Major Bloodnok on July 24, 2007 at 5:22 am

 avatar
Do African-American men have higher levels of testosterone, on average, than white men?

Why does this question contrast "African-American" with "white"? What does the use of "African-American say about the author's inbuilt assumptions/world view?

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