1. Comment #59226 by Logicel on July 28, 2007 at 12:06 pm

Classy!!!!

Other Comments by Logicel

2. Comment #59227 by aoratos philos on July 28, 2007 at 12:19 pm

Aye very Smart

Other Comments by aoratos philos

3. Comment #59228 by robotaholic on July 28, 2007 at 12:22 pm

I like them too. I'm glad they're not so obviously atheist that you'd get beaten up by wearing them...since I'm in a red state.

Other Comments by robotaholic

4. Comment #59230 by Logicel on July 28, 2007 at 12:27 pm

The new OUT Campaign website is a joy to behold. I am looking forward to see how the site develops.

Other Comments by Logicel

5. Comment #59231 by Homer is a true GOD on July 28, 2007 at 12:32 pm

I love the idea and the campaign but perhaps a version of the shirt down a couple notches might take people like me off the fence to join the campaign. A version with the A reduced to the size of a quarter with the Dawkins website in smaller script on the back would be nice. I live in a moderate blue state and the present version would not play well even in a blue state let alone a red state. To those with the chutzpah to wear the present version, I tip my hat. I love the website and may logic one day trump fairytales.

Other Comments by Homer is a true GOD

6. Comment #59232 by rodviking on July 28, 2007 at 12:45 pm

I would love to wear one of those (I live in an extremely catholic city in Belgium) but the store won't accept my credit card...oh well.

Regarding the OUT campaign, I would prefer if they had something concrete already for launch. To launch a site/campaign that pretty much says "watch this space for some stuff in the future" is not that appealing, most people will just not remember to return, and you usually just get people's attention once, so it's a bit of a missed opportunity.

Other Comments by rodviking

7. Comment #59236 by coriolan on July 28, 2007 at 1:23 pm

Tried to order one tonight, but the store won't accept my card for some reason?!?

Also, is there any chance of buying those from a UK distributor? Don't want to pay (and more importantly wait! :)) for delivery from USA.

Anyhow, nice work!

Other Comments by coriolan

8. Comment #59239 by cerad on July 28, 2007 at 1:50 pm

I got order #42. So I have the answer, just need the question. Think I'll try for 666 as well.

Other Comments by cerad

9. Comment #59241 by _J_ on July 28, 2007 at 1:54 pm

Well done, hope it goes well.

Don't think I'm going to buy one, though. Where I live, people would just wonder why I was making such a big deal about it. But I expect there are plenty of other places where this might be a worthwhile statement-garment.

Like Homer is a true GOD, I wonder if maybe a more subtle one might be good for some people. One with just a little emblem in the 'shirt pocket' area (sorry - I have no clothes terminology) or on the sleeve.

How long before there's a red plastic OUT Campaign wristband? (You could even stick WWJD? on it - alongside a URL for Dawkins' 'Atheists for Jesus' essay...)

Other Comments by _J_

10. Comment #59244 by CJ22 on July 28, 2007 at 2:05 pm

Where do the proceeds for these items go? To the RDF?

Other Comments by CJ22

11. Comment #59245 by Wrought on July 28, 2007 at 2:06 pm

Just enough of a campaign to sell merchandise advertising the website. Disappointing, but then I guess we are materialists, eh?

Other Comments by Wrought

12. Comment #59246 by fatcitymax on July 28, 2007 at 2:08 pm

It all seems juvenile to me.

Other Comments by fatcitymax

13. Comment #59248 by Anthropomorphic on July 28, 2007 at 2:16 pm

Pretty cool

Other Comments by Anthropomorphic

14. Comment #59249 by maton100 on July 28, 2007 at 2:17 pm

I'm all for it but I don't think one could get away with wearing these shirts in the Southeast. If I wore one to work, for example, I'd be in danger of getting my ass kicked by Chuck Norris or another wingnut Neanderthal.

http://thestubborncurmudgeon.blogspot.com

Other Comments by maton100

15. Comment #59255 by fatcitymax on July 28, 2007 at 2:38 pm

When I meet someone for the first time, I don't want to see their politics, religion (or lack of it), sexual orientation, or ethnicity on display. The T-shirts are in the same category as scarfs, veils, and turbans.

Other Comments by fatcitymax

16. Comment #59256 by Moebius on July 28, 2007 at 2:38 pm

I'm totally in. Can I help sell them from my website, The Primate Diaries?

http://www.primatediaries.blogspot.com

Lots of great discussion (and a good deal of fun) over the God v. Science case of public opinion.

Other Comments by Moebius

17. Comment #59257 by quork on July 28, 2007 at 2:46 pm

I see the T-shirt models don't have their faces in the frame. Perhaps you should look for people who are willing to wear the T-shirt and not afraid to show their faces.

Other Comments by quork

18. Comment #59259 by anotherclinton on July 28, 2007 at 2:50 pm

This seems like a bit much, really. I'd feel kind of ridiculous as a heterosexual white male adopting the social break-in philosophy of persecuted minorities.

Other Comments by anotherclinton

19. Comment #59260 by rodviking on July 28, 2007 at 3:00 pm

"I see the T-shirt models don't have their faces in the frame. Perhaps you should look for people who are willing to wear the T-shirt and not afraid to show their faces."

Those pics are clearly stock blank t-shirt pics on which the site just slapped the art on top, with Photoshop (and didn't do a very good job at that).

Other Comments by rodviking

20. Comment #59261 by Morro on July 28, 2007 at 3:05 pm

This seems like a bit much, really. I'd feel kind of ridiculous as a heterosexual white male adopting the social break-in philosophy of persecuted minorities.

Well said. I might consider buying one, if it weren't so very, very "in your face."

I am afraid that atheists are on the verge of becoming petulant whiners. Stuff like this doesn't help. I find it annoying when people walk around in shirts saying "Jesus saves!" This is just as obnoxious. And the paralleling with the gay "come out" movement? Tacky.

Other Comments by Morro

21. Comment #59263 by Henri Bergson on July 28, 2007 at 3:35 pm

Sad, herd-like behaviour. Very much like Christianity.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

22. Comment #59264 by mjwemdee on July 28, 2007 at 3:53 pm

I'm afraid I have to agree - something in my gut tells me this is a bad move.
a) RD (and the RDF and the website) might be accused of sheer opportunism and venality, which is not the intention of these T-shirts
b) as the campaign website says: we ARE all different. RD has said that trying to get atheists together is like herding cats: so why now design something that smacks of a uniform? Can't we 'come out' (ugh, hate the phrase) purely by using our reason and articulacy?
c) the 'A' logo is not bad in aesthetic terms, but neither is the fish, the cross, the crescent etc etc. Do we really want to follow that herd?

Other Comments by mjwemdee

23. Comment #59265 by thelivingbrian on July 28, 2007 at 4:03 pm

Frankly, I think it looks silly and unattractive. I think the RDF symbol would be much better.
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/7789/rdfed8.jpg

Other Comments by thelivingbrian

24. Comment #59266 by BMMcArdle on July 28, 2007 at 4:19 pm

Lead Balloon

Other Comments by BMMcArdle

25. Comment #59268 by rmercad2 on July 28, 2007 at 4:24 pm

This is not as big a deal as some of the other stuff you guys are saying but the use of the British flag as a symbol for the English language is slightly offensive.

Other Comments by rmercad2

26. Comment #59269 by rmercad2 on July 28, 2007 at 4:29 pm

Also, almost any educated person you ask will tell you that atoms exist and that the earth goes around the earth. With so many people converging on the same ideas, would that make educated people an unthinking heard?

This shit of atheists and herding cats is just that. Ideally, a compelling truth will attract a huge following.

Other Comments by rmercad2

27. Comment #59270 by rmercad2 on July 28, 2007 at 4:30 pm

correction: the earth goes around the sun

Other Comments by rmercad2

28. Comment #59271 by ThomasB on July 28, 2007 at 4:32 pm

The T-shirt thing seems a bit silly. I'd happily wear a shirt with a Darwin motif that sends an affirmative message endorsing science and reason.

But as someone who was never "IN", I appreciate, and respect, that the declarative "OUT" may have greater appeal to those reveling in their recent emancipation.



Other Comments by ThomasB

29. Comment #59272 by bluebird on July 28, 2007 at 4:32 pm

If I had that model's body I'd wear it~~seriously folks~~My first impression is the negative connotation of the 'Scarlet Letter'. Our sons would like them but we nixed the idea for reasons mentioned above.

Other Comments by bluebird

30. Comment #59275 by foxfire on July 28, 2007 at 4:47 pm

Although I don't think it's at all ugly, I would have preferred something a bit more representative, like thelivingbrain's suggestion of the RDF logo (post # 23 above) and/or the Darwin "fish-with-feet" like Anthropomorphic's avatar (Post # 13 above).

Oh well, I ordered one anyway.


edited to add:

@ bluebird (post # 29 above) - maybe that's why I'm not very enthusiatic too. To me, the "scarlet letter" A carries the connotation of being an adultress because of that book. I'll wear the T-shirt around the house and not when I go out because I don't think most people will "get" the message. I can just see a lot of irate questions asking me why I'm promoting adultery....

Other Comments by foxfire

31. Comment #59277 by Russell Blackford on July 28, 2007 at 5:06 pm

What's the negative connotation of the scarlet letter? I would have thought that boldly wearing a scarlet letter on your T-shirt was a way of symbolising your rejection of puritan notions of sexual "sin", such as described in Nathaniel Hawthorne's book, The Scarlet Letter. More generally, it symbolises your rejection of cruel, narrow-minded religious ideas of morality.

I realise that the "A" stands for "atheism", but what I like about it is its broader cultural resonance. You can read it as symbolising "Atheism is not a sin", for example.

Nice design, too.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

32. Comment #59279 by MouthAlmighty on July 28, 2007 at 5:23 pm

"COME out, REACH out, SPEAK out, KEEP out, and STAND out."

I think you missed "SELL out."

Now for fuck sake, CHILL out before you FREAK out.

Other Comments by MouthAlmighty

33. Comment #59281 by Nails on July 28, 2007 at 5:25 pm

Why does it have to be about conforming and being a 'group'?
Don't any of you wear sports shirts that show your support of a team or nation?
All we are doing by buying and wearing these is spreading a message of affiliation, that's all.

Other Comments by Nails

34. Comment #59283 by Henri Bergson on July 28, 2007 at 5:40 pm

Nails,

You only need to show affiliation when you feel threatened. Grouping yourself shows you have no inner strength but only strength in numbers. That's why Christianity appeals to the weak-minded.

With a symbol, and a prophet (RD, like JC), and a 'church' (group), you are now playing into the hands of theists who say that "atheism is a religion."

Individualism, not conformity, is courage.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

35. Comment #59285 by robotaholic on July 28, 2007 at 5:50 pm

You may think it's childish to broadcast your atheism but I do agree with Richard Dawkins that what we need is consciousness raising and this is a good step foreward.

Other Comments by robotaholic

36. Comment #59286 by rmercad2 on July 28, 2007 at 5:51 pm

I am an American.

The out campaign website (at the checkout page if I am not mistaken) has a British flag on which you can click to have the page in English. Aside from it not being necessary (no other language is offered), it is slightly offensive since the audience for this site is, supposedly, an international one. If I was an American "on the fence", after seeing that this website is apparently filled anti-American non-Americans, seeing the British flag as a symbol for the English language could make me go nuts!!! (Sounds stupid but you'd be surprised.)

IF I HAD AN OUNCE OF GRAY MATTER, I WOULD REPLACE THE FLAG WITH THE WORD "ENGLISH", ON WHICH I COULD CLICK ON. Alternatively, if there are no plans to include other languages, I would remove the whole thing.

Also, I made a correction about my "earth around the earth" comment seconds after I submitted it. In any case, unless you were assuming that you were talking to a complete moron (which, for all I know, might be a bad habit of yours), it should not have been difficult to figure out that I meant to say something other than what I said.

Other Comments by rmercad2

37. Comment #59290 by rmercad2 on July 28, 2007 at 6:00 pm

How about commenting on what I actually said.


Other Comments by rmercad2

38. Comment #59293 by Henri Bergson on July 28, 2007 at 6:09 pm

rmercad2,

I'm just saying that there are more important things to get emotional about than the Union Jack representing the English language.

English does come from England (the main country within Britain), and the Union Jack is more commonly known than England's St George's Cross, so it seems the logical indicator.

If you're offended by that I suggest you are a bit soft.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

39. Comment #59294 by rmercad2 on July 28, 2007 at 6:10 pm

I have picked up a lot of biomedical articles with English worst than mine. Yet, particularly when English is not their first language, I do not doubt their intelligence based on their knowledge of the language.

Other Comments by rmercad2

40. Comment #59296 by rmercad2 on July 28, 2007 at 6:12 pm

I apologize for getting a bit edgy. I'm in a bad mood.

Other Comments by rmercad2

41. Comment #59298 by windfall on July 28, 2007 at 6:20 pm

Hmm, tough one. To wear or not to wear...

I thinks it's a pretty cool design. True it could be a good way to invite conversation, but then, I don't ALWAYS want to invite that topic.

I don't know. To be honest this cuts to the very heart of the question of whether or not this movement will be a flash in the pan 10 years from now.

I think for MOST people, the hardest part about 'coming out' cold turkey like this is the idea that many current friends and associates will probably think 'Geez, lighten up' and you'll slowly begin to get a personal sense of the meaning of the word 'anathema'.

I've felt this cold wave from friends on several occasions now. When you try to casually raise the subject (or even if they bring it up!), and you start dropping names: TGD, End of Faith, etc. Or you lightly engage them in argument. The response has been mixed, but several friends have sent the message that this subject is not open for discussion. What do you do then? And don't give me that 'they're not your real friends' line either. It's not that easy.

One friend I've actually pretty much converted I think. But then there's work, etc. This is the hardest thing.

PS. don't correct people's English on web discussion boards; it's lame and gets in the way of the whole point - discussion.

Other Comments by windfall

42. Comment #59300 by Henri Bergson on July 28, 2007 at 6:29 pm

Beth,

The shepherd is the individual, not the sheep. A 'right' only has sense when speaking of contracts.

To be fair, I understand that this minion-making may be needed in the USA with its near theocracy. However, in Europe it is near pointless. But identifying with a group is still a sign of weakness.

Regarding the actual logo – it's awful! It is simply the first capitalised letter of the 'ZAPFINO' font (is it not copyrighted?). At least get a designer to come up with something interesting. Plus it is too similar to the Anarchist symbol.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

43. Comment #59301 by Morro on July 28, 2007 at 6:31 pm

Uh... I think the shirts are a bad idea, but what's with the upset over the union jack for English? Where did English come from? England. You may live in America, but you're speaking a British language. Get over it. This is like getting upset that French is represented by a French flag, and not a Haitian flag. Yes, they speak French in Haiti... but who cares? French is from France, and English is from England.

Can we stay on topic, rather than sniping about web design?

Other Comments by Morro

44. Comment #59302 by ? on July 28, 2007 at 6:34 pm

I don't see anything wrong with the t-shirts.They look nice, and I can't really imagine atheists using them the way religious groups use veils or
turbans. That would actually be quite bizzare
and unrealistic, wouldn't it?

Amusing to contemplate, though, in a Monty Python sketch sort of way! All atheists would wear the t-shirt everywhere all the time. We would also demand an absolute legal right to do this even in
completely inappropriate settings (a restaurant
that requires formal wear, a workplace that
requires a uniform, etc.). All true atheists, when going to the beach or a public swimming pool must wear the shirts over their bathing suit. Known atheists seen in public without it are to be harrassed by angry mobs.

Other Comments by ?

45. Comment #59304 by Morro on July 28, 2007 at 6:40 pm

I don't see anything wrong with the t-shirts.
They look nice, and I can't imagine atheists
using them the way religious groups use veils or
turbans. That would actually be quite bizzare
and unrealistic, wouldn't it?

Absolutely. Your Monty Python vision is amusing. :) My problem with the shirts is that they are another example of the annoying "F you, I'm an atheist" trend I see becoming stronger. I think there's an element of petulant aggression in these sorts of things, whether they say "Christ 4 life" or just have a big "A."

Sports teams are different, because that's all in good fun (usually.) People tend to take their overall worldview more seriously (usually.) ;)

Other Comments by Morro

46. Comment #59305 by pzmyers on July 28, 2007 at 6:42 pm

Identifying with a group is not pointless or a sign of weakness. It is an ordinary human thing to do. A simple common symbol that just says "I don't follow a religion" is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

This is also just a t-shirt. You don't have to wear it. You don't have to wear it all the time.

I don't understand the whiners here at all. The RDF is not asking you to sign over your mortgage to them...they're just providing a t-shirt you can buy if you want, and encouraging people to be bold about their unbelief. If you aren't willing to at least openly admit to being an atheist (in whatever way you want, it doesn't have to be with a red letter A), then this place isn't for you anyway, and your complaints are irrelevant.

Other Comments by pzmyers

47. Comment #59306 by pzmyers on July 28, 2007 at 6:45 pm

Wearing a shirt with a bold A on it is part of an "annoying 'F you, I'm an atheist'" trend? Good grief. How pathetically sensitive are you?

I could see the problem if this were a "punch your priest" campaign, or a "spray graffiti on a church" campaign. It's not. It's simply being upfront about being an atheist.

Some people seem incapable of handling even that minimal amount of self-expression, though.

Other Comments by pzmyers

48. Comment #59308 by Henri Bergson on July 28, 2007 at 6:55 pm

pzmyers,

Identifying with atheists is pointless in Europe as we're not run by theocrats and most of us are secular anyway. Identifying with a group is a common human sign of weakness. It is one of the major reasons for the formation of religions (especially Christianity).

That is why you degrade yourself if you group together in this way: you are mirroring the religious impulse. You may as well wear a cross.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

49. Comment #59310 by eccles on July 28, 2007 at 6:58 pm

I have posted the home page with links on my web site: http://groups.msn.com/MilitantAtheistMaterialists/welcome.msnw

I have urged my bretheren Atheists to support this campaign to help free the USA from Bloody Christianity

Other Comments by eccles

50. Comment #59311 by pzmyers on July 28, 2007 at 7:11 pm

You keep saying it is a sign of weakness. Get over it. We live in communities, we are social animals, working together is one of our strengths.

Unless you're a hermit living in a cave and subsisting on roots and grubs, you are also a member of multiple groups.

Other Comments by pzmyers