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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Teresa, Bright and Dark

by Christopher Hitchens, Newsweek

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20497111/site/newsweek/

Aug. 29, 2007 - … The publication of Mother Teresa's letters, concerning her personal crisis of faith, can be seen either as an act of considerable honesty or of extraordinary cynicism (or perhaps both of the above). These scrawled, desperate documents came to light as part of the investigation into her suitability for sainthood; an investigation conducted by Father Brian Kolodiejchuk, the Canadian priest who is the editor of this volume. And they were actually first published in the fall of 2002, by the Zenit news agency—a Vatican-based outlet associated with a militant Catholic right-wing group known as the Legion of Christ. So, which is the more striking: that the faithful should bravely confront the fact that one of their heroines all but lost her own faith, or that the Church should have gone on deploying, as an icon of favorable publicity, a confused old lady who it knew had for all practical purposes ceased to believe?

Crises of faith, or "dark nights of the soul" as they were termed by St. John of the Cross, are not a new idea to Roman Catholics. St. Therese of Lisieux, the 19th-century French Carmelite who was the namesake of Mother Teresa, seems to have died while enduring an experience of spiritual night that she likened to a dark tunnel. Making the best of it, many confessors and theologians have even argued that such tests are actually a kind of confirmation or vindication. The Rev. Joseph Neuner, one of those to whom Mother Teresa turned in her own agony, enjoined her to believe that her ordeal gave her a share in the Passion of Christ, and that His absence was in a way a "sure sign" of his "hidden presence" in her life. This slightly convenient diagnosis seems to have cheered her up, if only temporarily. (Here might be the place to declare my interest, and to state that at the invitation of the Vatican, I testified against the beatification and canonization of Mother Teresa, as well as to confess that I tend to believe that the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence.)

Moreover, this was no mere temporary visitation of doubt. Here are some of the things that she told her various advisers. "For me, the silence and the emptiness is so great, that I look and do not see,—Listen and do not hear—the tongue moves but does not speak." "Such deep longing for God—and … repulsed—empty—no faith—no love—no zeal.—[The saving of] Souls holds no attraction—Heaven means nothing." "What do I labor for? If there be no God—there can be no soul—if there is no Soul then Jesus—You also are not true." Like an old-fashioned Morse signal, the cryptic and dot-dash punctuation somehow serves to emphasize and amplify the distress.

It is no small thing for a Catholic to feel no "presence" whatever, "neither in her heart nor in the eucharist," as Father Kolodiejchuk has phrased it. The sacrament of the mass is not to be undergone in a wrong frame of mind, and there are hints here and there that Mother Teresa was afraid she was endangering her soul. She felt that she should not even be thinking such things: "So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them—because of the blasphemy—If there be God—please forgive me—When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven—there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul.—I am told God loves me—and yet the reality of darkness and coldness and emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. Did I make a mistake in surrendering blindly to the Call of the Sacred Heart?" That last question in particular must have been an annihilating difficult one to face.

Now, it might seem glib of me to say that this is all rather unsurprising, and that it is the inevitable result of a dogma that asks people to believe impossible things and then makes them feel abject and guilty when their innate reason rebels. The case of Mother Teresa, who could not force herself into accepting the facile cure-all of "faith," is that of a fairly simple woman struggling to be honest with herself, while also—this is important—striving to be an example to others. And I believe I have a possible explanation for the crisis. It derives from something that Lord Macaulay said, when reviewing Leopold von Ranke's "History of the Popes." The Roman Catholic Church, he wrote, "thoroughly understands what no other Church has ever understood, how to deal with enthusiasts" [my italics]. Wise bishops have long known to beware of the fanatical and the overzealous. After being lectured on doctrinal matters by the ultraconservative convert Evelyn Waugh, the pope is said to have concluded the audience by murmuring, "Yes, Mr. Waugh. I am a Catholic, too." When Mother Teresa first rebelled against the quiet life of the Loreto Sisters in 1946, and sought permission from her superiors to start a new order—The Missionaries of Charity—she was at first turned down and told to stay in her allotted place of humility. The local archbishop, a man named Ferdinand Perier, then found he had a true believer on his hands: a woman hungry for humility and yet fantastically immodest. ("Come Be My Light," the slightly sickly subtitle of this book, is what Mother Teresa claims, not that she said to Jesus, but that He said to her.) Only after she had wearied the diocese with demands that her ambition be referred to the Vatican did she finally, after two years of pleading and cajoling, get her way. And then, two months after she started her own show in Calcutta in 1948, the demons checked in and, in effect, never quite checked out again. She got what she wanted, and found it a crushing disappointment.

It seems, therefore, that all the things that made Mother Teresa famous—the endless hard toil, the bitter austerity, the ostentatious religious orthodoxy—were only part of an effort to still the misery within. Again, the timeline would seem to support this interpretation. After 10 years of gnawing doubt, she reported a brief remission on the death of Pope Pius XII in the fall of 1958. Praying for him at a requiem mass, she found herself relieved of "the long darkness … that strange suffering." The respite only lasted for five weeks and then she was back "in the tunnel" once more. Soon after came the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, which at a gathering of India's Catholics in Bombay she violently opposed, saying that what was wanted was not new thinking but more work and more faith. What could be a clearer indication of a deep need to suppress all doubt, both in herself and others?

Not many years later, she became a world-class celebrity with the film (and book) about her: "Something Beautiful for God," authored by the worldly English eccentric Malcolm Muggeridge. After that, her star power was so intense that the Church forgot Macaulay's wisdom and gave up any attempt to discipline her apparently enthusiastic fundamentalism. If Santayana was right to define fanaticism as "redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim," then Mother Teresa's international crusade against divorce, abortion and contraception was the tribute that doubt paid to certainty: a strenuous and almost hysterical effort to drown out the awful fear of "absence." One strongly suspects that, like not a few overpromoted figures, she suffered from more self-hatred the more she was overpraised. (After receiving one of many international prizes, she wrote: "This means nothing to me, because I don't have Him.")

Not perhaps to push my analysis too far, but it could also explain some of the things that alarmed even her defenders: the accepting of stolen money from the Duvalier dictatorship in Haiti, for example, or the compromises she made with the tyrannical Indira Gandhi or the shady Charles Keating of savings-and-loan notoriety. Who cares about ignoble surrenders to the things of this impure world if they will fuel the endless drive to abolish misgiving through overwork? The same goes for the alarming doctrinal excesses. Every Catholic is supposed to regard abortion as an abomination (and, if it matters, I concur). But surely it takes someone both insecure and fanatical to exceed the official teaching and to tell the Nobel Prize audience, as she did, that abortion is the greatest threat to world peace?

Toward the end of her days, we have been informed by Archbishop D'Souza of Calcutta, her troubled and sleepless condition gave rise to such concern that she was subjected to an exorcism. According to this same clerical authority, the medieval banishment of the demons allowed her a good night's sleep before her death. One is glad to learn of it, and to know that she found a sort of peace. But since then, she has been posthumously exploited for having worked a medical "miracle" from beyond the grave: an episode which (to put it mildly) no respectable Bengali physician can confirm. I say it as calmly as I can—the Church should have had the elementary decency to let the earth lie lightly on this troubled and miserable lady, and not to invoke her long anguish to recruit the credulous to a blind faith in which she herself had long ceased to believe.

Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair and the author of "The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice." His most recent book is "God Is Not Great."

Comments 1 - 50 of 128 |

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1. Comment #66285 by sane1 on August 29, 2007 at 3:29 pm

 avatarHow frickin credulous do you need to be to consider this Teresa story as more evidence of the existence of jesus, etc???

I feel sory for the flock, and it looks like hitchens has discovered a tender spot for M Teresa too.

Other Comments by sane1

2. Comment #66286 by AnthSynthasome on August 29, 2007 at 3:31 pm

 avatarDare I say, no one could have made a better Devil's Advocate for Mama Teresa than Hitch; his argument cuts like a knife.

Other Comments by AnthSynthasome

3. Comment #66289 by dazzjazz on August 29, 2007 at 3:41 pm

 avatarDid I read this correctly - is Hitch anti-abortion?

Other Comments by dazzjazz

4. Comment #66294 by pete on August 29, 2007 at 3:52 pm

 avatardazzjazz wrote: "Did I read this correctly - is Hitch anti-abortion?"

It's hard to tell conclusively from this article. Still, I would be inclined to think that Hitch is libertarian enough to think that, as horrible as abortion is, government involvement in womens' reproductive affairs is far worse.

Either way, I'd love to hear more of his thoughts on abortion.

Other Comments by pete

5. Comment #66297 by robotaholic on August 29, 2007 at 4:09 pm

 avatarNice read except for one thing....being educated about the catholoc orthodoxy with priests, fathers, popes, orders, etc... makes me icky inside.

Also, about Theresa, I'd just let her and her controversy die down...who cares she was catholic, who cares she lost her faith or w/e, just let the old lady alone...everytime someone famous dies, it's like vulture time from all the talking heads...just let this one alone for goodness sake.

Oh and I declare myself a saint too...will someone in the universal life church confirm me? lol

Other Comments by robotaholic

6. Comment #66299 by LordSummerisle on August 29, 2007 at 4:18 pm

 avatarHitch touches abortion shortly in "god Is Not Great", in which he essentially states that while he considers the termination of human life to be appalling, he is firmly pro-choice.

Other Comments by LordSummerisle

7. Comment #66300 by The author on August 29, 2007 at 4:28 pm

 avatar"regard abortion as an abomination (and, if it matters, I concur)"

Why, in the name of reason!? Hitchens was always entirely convincing for me (even, after reading his books and essays about it, concerning Iraq). But what secular, sensible reason could there possibly be against abortion?

I think it should be entirely legalized without any confinement. Let's face it: Embryos do not consciously feel any pain. In this state, they are just a bunch of cells, so it should be up to the mothers - who of course have an emotional connection even to their embryos - whether to abort them or not.

But I can tell you, who DO feels pain: Raped mothers who may not abort - or in fact any mother who didn't want to get pregnant. After all: Would you want do be an unwanted child?

Other Comments by The author

8. Comment #66304 by Bonzai on August 29, 2007 at 4:36 pm

 avatarThe author wrote:

"regard abortion as an abomination (and, if it matters, I concur)"

Why, in the name of reason!? Hitchens was always entirely convincing for me (even, after reading his books and essays about it, concerning Iraq). But what secular, sensible reason could there possibly be against abortion?


Well maybe it would make sense if you read the whole sentence, which is "Every Catholic is supposed to regard abortion as an abomination (and, if it matters, I concur)."

So he was saying that he concurred according to Catholic doctrines any self described Catholic should regard abortion as an abomination. I think he was making an offhand criticism to the inconsistency of "liberal Catholics" who on the one hand, claim they subscribe to Catholicism while at the same time pro choice and support other liberal social agendas.

Logically one cannot tell whether Hitchens himself is pro choice or not from this sentence alone, but he probably is judging from his other writings.

Other Comments by Bonzai

9. Comment #66305 by Icculus on August 29, 2007 at 4:44 pm

I think the most firm pro-choice supporter can still say that abortion is an abomination. While the language may seem strong, no one wants people to have abortions, as the desired outcome would be no unwanted pregnancies. Mistakes occur, and sometimes people need to make a choice. Even when the choice to abort is objectively the right one, it is never easy, and those involved are forever changed. So yes, abortion is an ugly thing, but so are many of the choices we make, and are entitled to make.

Other Comments by Icculus

10. Comment #66306 by Bonzai on August 29, 2007 at 4:46 pm

 avatarRe: abortion is an abomination

People, read Hitchens' sentence again and read the whole sentence , for Pete's sake.

Other Comments by Bonzai

11. Comment #66309 by LeeLeeOne on August 29, 2007 at 4:53 pm

 avatarPlease, for the love of reasoned, educated, and insightful thoughts that are regularly (albeit not consistently) posted on this site, do not "pick an agenda", i.e., abortion. Yes, Hitchens may or may not agree that abortion is an "abomination." Yes, Hitchens may or many not agree with "pro-choice" or "pro-life" stance.

What Hitchens is TEACHING all of us is to think FOR OURSELVES in this entire article! Can anyone else see this?!

BTW: Pro-choice does NOT mean pro-abortion! There is a HUGE difference! Does ANYONE understand?!

Other Comments by LeeLeeOne

12. Comment #66327 by BlaiddDrwg on August 29, 2007 at 5:39 pm

 avatarI agree with LeeLeeOne. I thought this article was a much more sensitive assessment of Mother Teresa's crisis of faith than I had expected from Christopher Hitchens, yet everyone has grabbed on to a single statement and turned it into the sole focus of the discussion. Personally, I don't care if anyone approves or disapproves of abortion as long as they don't try to legislate their opinions on others. Let's try to stay on topic and discuss the article.

Other Comments by BlaiddDrwg

13. Comment #66328 by The author on August 29, 2007 at 5:41 pm

 avatar@Bonzai: "Well maybe it would make sense if you read the whole sentence"

Sorry, you seem to be wrong here, because, as
LordSummerisle notes:
"Hitch touches abortion shortly in "god Is Not Great", in which he essentially states that while he considers the termination of human life to be appalling, he is firmly pro-choice."

Which means that Hitchens considers embryos as "human life" which I do not. Embroys are a bunch of cells.

@Icculus:
"it is never easy, and those involved are forever changed. So yes, abortion is an ugly thing"

In that sense, yes. But it is not an ugly thing because of the embryo.

@LeeLeeOne:
"What Hitchens is TEACHING all of us is to think FOR OURSELVES in this entire article!"

I'm clearly in favor of Hitchens. Everyone can be wrong on an issue, I constantly detect misstakes and inconsistencies in my own views, that's quite ok if one is willing to change wrong views as soon as identified. I'm certainly not planning any agenda against Hitchens, I'm quite a fan actually. But he's wrong there, as far as I can tell.

Other Comments by The author

14. Comment #66330 by dancingthemantaray on August 29, 2007 at 5:44 pm

"as horrible as abortion is"

abortion is not horrible, it is a fundamental tennent of equality. If a woman doesn't have control over what happens to her own body (and, of course, what she does for the entire rest of her life) what rights does she have?

Other Comments by dancingthemantaray

15. Comment #66332 by BigJohn on August 29, 2007 at 5:52 pm

 avatarOf course Hitch is against abortion. Any logical, thinking person must be against abortion. It requires a strong dose of liberal dogma to find abortion acceptable. There are few legitimate reasons to kill a human being. Most are decided by society as a whole. Abortion is not. I can agree with abortion as a reason to kill a human only after long discussion and debate in reasonable, non-dogmatic terms.

I wish I knew Hitchens' reasoning behind his anti-abortion stance.

Other Comments by BigJohn

16. Comment #66334 by dancingthemantaray on August 29, 2007 at 5:56 pm

"Any logical, thinking person must be against abortion"

who, then, is the victim of abortion? Who gets hurt?

Leaving aside the more controversial ends of abortion (late term partial births etc) how is removing an unfeeling cluster of cells better than forcing a woman to undergo massive physical hardship and pain for 9 months and then (potentially) having to serve a life sentence for a child she didn't want. How is having unwanted life better?

Abortion benefits society and is neccessary for equality

Other Comments by dancingthemantaray

17. Comment #66345 by Duff on August 29, 2007 at 6:25 pm

Big John,
You...how shall I say this...you, moron! It is not your right to tell any woman what she should do with her body. Your childish concept of a woman "killing a human being" inside her body is a moronic attempt to retain control over women. Give it up, genius. It's not your decision. More and more, these kinds of decisions are not going to be made by politicians and red-necks like you.

Other Comments by Duff

18. Comment #66349 by Fire1974 on August 29, 2007 at 6:37 pm

Hitchens is not alone among the "Four Horsemen of the Counter-apocalypse" to be disenchanted with the idea of a woman in a situation where she feels it necessary to destroy her fetus. Sam Harris finds it an "ugly reality" and so do I.
However, if you are Pro-Choice, you think that the government (much less the church) should never have authority in her decision, and so do I. But I think we can all agree having an abortion is never a pleasant experience emotionally or physically for her and, says Harris, "we should all hope for [scientific] advances in contraception that will make it unnecessary."
They also write that whatever sympathy for or understanding of the fetus we may gain, it will be by the light of science and reason (not faith) that makes that possible, as it has already with sonar imaging.

Other Comments by Fire1974

19. Comment #66353 by BAEOZ on August 29, 2007 at 6:52 pm

 avatarBigJohn:
Any logical, thinking person must be against abortion. It requires a strong dose of liberal dogma to find abortion acceptable. There are few legitimate reasons to kill a human being.

And that in a nutshell is why the abortion debate gets derailed. Equivocation, a human embryo and early stage fetus in now way can be termed a child or human being. It may be said to be a human becoming if you want to be cute. It can't feel pain, think or do anything a human being can be said to do. And if you wish to compare it to a disabled or brain damaged person, because they may not think or feel pain, then that won't wash either, because a disabled person can and does survive outside of his/her mothers womb. A 3 month fetus can't. They generally turn the machine off when an unfortunate person can't think (brain dead) and can't survive without a respirator for good reason.
You need reason to debate ethics, not equivocation of comparing a glump of cells with potential to be a child with a real child.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

20. Comment #66356 by yoyo on August 29, 2007 at 7:11 pm

Having, or being, an unwanted child is the abomination. Unless the meaning attributed by Bonzai is correct, this has to be one of the stupidist things Hitchens has said since anything he's written about Iraq

Other Comments by yoyo

21. Comment #66362 by eoinc on August 29, 2007 at 7:35 pm

"Every Catholic is supposed to regard abortion as an abomination (and, if it matters, I concur)."

Does that mean:

(a) I concur that abortion is an abomination

or

(b) I concur that Catholics are supposed to regard abortion as an abomination.

Other Comments by eoinc

22. Comment #66364 by Bonzai on August 29, 2007 at 7:37 pm

 avatarActually I checked it out, Hitchens is against abortion though he apparently has a different reason than the usual fetus = baby argument. He also agrees that ultimately the woman should decide.

But I still maintain that one couldn't have known by that sentence alone, he wasn't very clear in what he "concurred with", that "abortion is an abomination" or that "Catholics should agree that abortion is an abomination"

Other Comments by Bonzai

23. Comment #66365 by Shuggy on August 29, 2007 at 7:39 pm

 avatarThere ought to be a better term than "topic drift". As usual, here we have a topic stampede, or a topic deviation, or a topic loss, or a topic escape.

It occurs to me that the very word "abortion" is too ambiguous because pregnancy includes everything from zygote to crowning. Most reasonable people would have no trouble with "aborting" a non-implanted zygote (or even, conveniently, define pregnancy to begin at implantation). And most reasonable people would object to "aborting" after labour had started. (Me, I think Roe vs Wade got it about right, and I'm with Hillary Clinton that "abortion should be safe, legal and rare", to which I would add, EARLY)

Now, back to Mother T. What a pity she never confided her doubts to someone brave enough to say, "You're perfectly right, Jesus is not present in the Eucharist, nor anywhere else, and God is not answering your prayers because he isn't there. Welcome to reality, now how are you going to get funding for your good works?, because they're still good." (insofar as they were, which CH casts considerable doubt on.)

Other Comments by Shuggy

24. Comment #66376 by Veronique on August 29, 2007 at 9:01 pm

 avatarI wasn't going to either read the article or comment on this. It seemed so ho hum. But I clicked and read the Hitch. My eye was caught by this:

that it is the inevitable result of a dogma that asks people to believe impossible things and then makes them feel abject and guilty when their innate reason rebels

Beautifully put!!

At the risk of upsetting those on this thread that think that abortion has hijacked the on- topic comments, this happens all the time. Commenting is an organic process that touches the nerves of people and comments become fractured. All very normal, I would have thought.

I can't, for the life of me, see this as a problem. Skim over the comments you don't want to read and post your own comment that may or may not have anything to do with other posters or the article being commented on.

I, like everyone here, have been caught up in commenting on comments. I also comment on the article that spawned the comments. I also spit the dummy at the religites who post here. I try to reason with them, then spit the dummy:-).

We are an eclectic group of people who like to have our own say. So be it. I enjoy this and obviously so do others. This site is terrific in that no moderator edits the comments. It's a free-for-all. Wonderful!!

Right – having got that out of the way, I want to comment on abortion (hahaha):-).

I want to know why these words and phrases have been used in relation to abortion:

Horrible as abortion is
Termination … to be appalling
Abortion as an abomination
Abortion is an ugly thing
Any logical thinking person must be against abortion
Ugly reality

They sound like words from a long buried mantra. At best it's the apologist's stance. What for, I would like to know.

It's called a surgical procedure. See, no loaded words there. Some women handle it well, others (and I would suspect they have feelings of inculcated guilt) not so well.

It's the words and phrases that are listed above, that keep this decision that women should be entirely free to make for themselves, clouded unnecessarily in more emotion than is needed.

Get over it, you lot. Shuggy, yoyo, BAEOZ, Duff, Mantaray, LeeLeeOne, The Author and others see the issue far more clearly. The rest of you (and Hitch) need to use Jiff on the windows of your minds.

Back to MT. Poor bloody woman. Hitch is more understanding in this article, less vituperative. I even find myself doing a bit more charitable thinking about her. I cannot imagine living a life wracked by such fundamental doubt while desperately trying to a beacon of internal light to sustain me.

Poor, deluded, unhappy woman. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. Her damned mentors and spiritual advisers aren't even ashamed of themselves. Then to foist sainthood on her memory so that others, in the same boat, will use her memory to try to convince themselves that they can sustain a belief in the unbelievable is worse than criminal.

RIP, MT.

V

Other Comments by Veronique

25. Comment #66383 by 82abhilash on August 29, 2007 at 10:09 pm

Everyone seems to be taken up on by Hitchen's abortion stance. Well here is his argument against it, 'Hitchen's opposes abortion on materialistic grounds: human life has to begin at some point, and there is no non-arbitrary way to determine that it begins at a point after conception but before birth.' It seems pragmatic to me. It is very difficult to determine which point we are talking of a fetus and which point it becomes a baby. Is a viable fetus a baby?

By its very nature it is an unpleasant decision to make, at least. While I am sure no one here would advocate a blanket ban on abortion, some check and balance system would be a good idea to ensure that unwanted pregnancies are prevented rather than terminated.

Other Comments by 82abhilash

26. Comment #66385 by 82abhilash on August 29, 2007 at 10:27 pm

Hitchens is interpreting old data in light of new evidence, which makes sense. I think that perhaps now at least the ordinary people on both sides can lay the issue to rest.

She was not a cunning charlatan, nor was she a saint. She was just an ordinary woman who tried and failed to live and work sincerely by her catholic faith. Some of us where taken in by the charm and some where not. There is nothing more to that. It is time for us to let this one go. Unless of course the catholic church tries to bring it up again.

Other Comments by 82abhilash

27. Comment #66388 by Veronique on August 29, 2007 at 11:00 pm

 avatar25. Comment #66383 by 82abhilash

By its very nature it is an unpleasant decision to make, at least. While I am sure no one here would advocate a blanket ban on abortion, some check and balance system would be a good idea to ensure that unwanted pregnancies are prevented rather than terminated


Unpleasant eh? Try telling that to a woman who, because of religious interference and being part of a male-dominated society, isn't able to insist on condom usage or, indeed on no sex. Her reaction is more likely: 'Oh no, not again!!' She has had to have 5,6,7 or more babies that she can't look after or who are going to die of AIDS/HIV or simply malnutrition. The ability to seek a safe abortion is a blessing. Unpleasant doesn't even enter into the equation.

Trust me, I am a compassionate woman and am not blinded by any airy fairy fucking concepts of what other people think women go through. I am sick of this pretend pandering to PC mouthings. I have been through this BS myself and I am utterly unimpressed with the sycophantic PC ramblings of white dominant peoples. Sorry, you got it in the throat. I am not having a go at you per se, just at the way you use words without thinking of what they actually convey.

Last year, according to the UN, 67,000 women died as a result of having to seek back-yard abortions that induced septicaemia or being forced to have babies that they had no possibility of bringing to full term. This figure also includes women who desperately utilised age-old birth control measures (that include knitting needles and gin baths) that didn't work and ultimately contributed to their deaths.

Of course we would all like to see preventive measures available to ALL women, but that just doesn't happen. The Mother Grundys and religites see to that, god rot them!

In some of our Aboriginal communities (in the past), the men took it upon themselves to introduce a hole into their penises so that the sperm would flow out of the introduced hole rather than into the women's vaginas. They were hunters and gatherers and couldn't afford large populations while travelling in this very bare land. The women had other means to induce abortions. By and large these methods worked. They certainly didn't overburden this country with a burgeoning population. They contained themselves to the environment they had lived in for between 40,000 to 60,000 years (no one knows exactly when they arrived here over the land bridge).

Unlike us who commandeered this land and disenfranchised (ie killed) them and continue to do so despite the bleatings of our control freak politicians. Now we have whites seducing young aboriginal children with petrol sniffing and alcohol in order to sexually abuse these black CHILDREN – some under the age of 2. Are you not outraged? Of course you are.

Now they have been 'citified', they have lost a lot of their own cultural imperatives (and we whites have given them a terrific alternative culture to aspire to!! Not!!) to the detriment of their continued cultures. Their birth numbers are on the rise (as are their death numbers) and no one gives a damn.

So don't try to tell me that a decision to abort is being unpleasant. The decision is reached because it is necessary. That's it. Lock, stock and barrel. Women who bleat about how traumatised they were reaching such a decision have been sucked into the prevailing PC culture that dictates 'you must have been traumatised'. Answer: 'Oh yes, you will never know how much soul-searching I went through.' All bollocks!!

This one, you realise, grabs my passion:-).
Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

28. Comment #66396 by Canuck#1 on August 29, 2007 at 11:31 pm

 avatarIcan sympathize with MT, having been there....attending Bible school...praying in public...preaching...,doing it because it was expected...because all my friends were church friends....because my parents were so proud...and it was HELL....eventually, not having to worry about sainthood or a watching world, I walked away....but even for me that was difficult...the only remnant being a Christian wife who loves me in spite of my atheism...

Other Comments by Canuck#1

29. Comment #66402 by Ben Jennings on August 29, 2007 at 11:47 pm

 avatarTo my knowledge, Hitch is of the "abortion should be free, legal and extremely rare" persuasion.

Other Comments by Ben Jennings

30. Comment #66406 by Richard Morgan on August 30, 2007 at 12:03 am

Every Catholic is supposed to regard abortion as an abomination (and, if it matters, I concur).
Mister Hitchens, if you really thought it didn't matter you wouldn't have bothered adding the two words "I concur" to your article. You can't make us believe that you are so naïve as to imagine that "I concur" is just a throw-away! Aw come on, Hitch!
...and then makes them feel abject and guilty when their innate reason rebels.
Whilst recent research seems to be acquiring evidence that some aspects of the "reasoning" faculty could well be "innate" (i.e. genetically transmitted) I feel that it this is an unfortunate choice of adjective. Not wishing to go back to the nature/nurture debate, it is still far from clear that "reason" is "innate".

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

31. Comment #66411 by roach on August 30, 2007 at 12:39 am

Richard Morgan,

Your posts tend to confuse me. I believe Hitchens means "if it matters (to you the reader), I concur". We can hardly blame Hitchens for not knowing the minds of every individual who reads his words.

Other Comments by roach

32. Comment #66424 by Richard Morgan on August 30, 2007 at 1:28 am

roach :

Your posts tend to confuse me.
Hum. That probably means my posts are confusing. Which is worrying to me, since most of my posts are concerned with the clarity of (verbal) expression in order to avoid confusion. And often I am accused of being "petty" or a "jerk" (the character, not the dance or the verb) for insisting on certain details.
Remarks like
(and, if it matters, I concur).
are cheap verbal tricks which offend me when I come across them in otherwise serious articles.
I shouldn't need to say this, but the Hitch knew perfectly well that expressing his opinion would matter to lots of folk. Do you really believe he would be surprised by the reactions here on this board? Do you think he is so naïve as to imagine that his readers would not pick up this remark?
Also this verbal construct is a very silly one, in the sense that saying "If it matters to you, the reader, I concur," implies that there is the option of it not mattering to the reader. In which case....er, what?
And having said that, I have the horrible impression that I've added even more confusion.
Oh well, I'll just fetch my coat...

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33. Comment #66431 by paulwwww on August 30, 2007 at 2:04 am

I have not read any of Hitchen's books, not sure I will. Alright maybe when they make it to half-priced books. Mostly because I have not been too impressed with some of his views that have been in the press. However I was quite impressed with this article, and have a feeling his speculations might have had more truth than some will openly admit too, and certainly moreso than the Catholic clergy will like to speak of. It is quite a shame to see someone led down this path and gain such traction that it becomes a nightmare to get out. And that is what it sounds like, may have been the case, not too mention she still wanted to provide charity in her position regardless of her personal needs. Many of us would have none of that and Mother Teresa should be commended for this. Good call for Hitchens on this one.

Not that I really want to continue the abortion debate, but I have to kind of side with Veronique. Check out http://www.amazon.com/Cider-House-Rules-John-Irving/dp/0345387651 .

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34. Comment #66449 by keith on August 30, 2007 at 2:51 am

 avatarI think Icculus got it about right: Hitchens thinks abortion is horrible but I'm sure he would support the right of all women to have one since it sometimes represents the best of all the bad options.

Bonzai, if you are right in your interpretation, then Hitchens' sentence,

"Every Catholic is supposed to regard abortion as an abomination (and, if it matters, I concur)"

can only be described (as he himself would say) as a trainwreck of a sentence. And I think he would rather be accused of mass murder than writing a bad sentence, so I'm not sure you're doing him any favours here.

LeeLeeOne. Youwrite:

"What Hitchens is TEACHING all of us is to think FOR OURSELVES in this entire article! Can anyone else see this?!"

No matter how dramatically you plead for insight from us, I don't believe that Hitchens is trying to teach us anything. He is simply writing an article about Mother Teresa. You sound disturbingly like one of Brian's followers in 'The Life Of Brian' and I think Hitchens would see the idea of himself as a teacher as farcical.

Fucking hell! Why does someone always have to bring up Iraq when they talk about Hitchens? Please look into his reasons for supporting the invasion. You might find there is more than just oil and weapons of mass destruction that weren't there. Incidentally, his reasons are not necessarily the same as Bush's, but they are the same as those of other intelligent writers and journalists who supported the invasion, British writers like Ian McEwan, Nick Cohen, David Aaronovitch and Johann Hari (initially). These writers are not stupid, they are not cynical, they don't love all things American and they don't hate the Iraqi people. Even if none of this changes your mind, at least you might see that the situation was not as black and white as you suspect and you might not feel it necessary to voice your perplexity every time Hitchens' name is mentioned on whatever topic arises.

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35. Comment #66450 by Veronique on August 30, 2007 at 2:54 am

 avatar32. Comment #66424 by Richard Morgan

I am not confused by your comments. I have to say that in case you start doubting the clarity of your posts. It's the written language again!! YYAARRGGHH. It's inevitable, my dear. Even the spoken language (in situ) has traps for unwary players.

It's a burden we have to bear. I get very pissed off when my words are (mis) translated through someone's mindset and come out the other end totally different from my exposition. Like you (and everyone else) I then think that I wasn't clear enough. I assume that I had worded my argument slothfully and no one understood my argument. Not necessarily true!! Someone else's brain had interpreted my words through his own mental filter. Bugger language!! Always has been and always will be a communication problem (hahahaha – sorry, joke).

I think they say: Dona worry, she's a good. No problemo. Language is as language does.

You're fine, mate, at least in my book.
V

Other Comments by Veronique

36. Comment #66455 by stereoroid on August 30, 2007 at 3:18 am

 avatarWas that a "Six Feet Under" reference in the title? In that show, "Charlotte, Light and Dark" was a (fictional) book written about one of the characters (Brenda). She was a child prodigy who fell under the scrutiny of psychiatrists, including her own parents, and her life was published in extreme detail. Even though the authors changed her name, she was always reminded that she was not normal - a self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one. And you thought Philip Larkin had it bad?

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37. Comment #66456 by keith on August 30, 2007 at 3:19 am

 avatarRichard Morgan,

I don't really understand your objection to Hitchens' remark

"(and, if it matters, I concur)".

All he's saying is that his opinion on the matter is neither here nor there. What is relevant is what Catholics think.

Incidentally, Richard Dawkins used pretty much the same language in an analagous situation a couple of weeks ago. When being interviewed by Richard Madely and the ridiculous Judy Finnegan, he was asked what his opinion was on whether or not the supernatural existed. His answer was really quite clever. He said, "What my opinion
is is not really important. What the evidence says is what matters" (paraphrase).

The truth is that what Hitchens' views on abortion are were not really relevant in that context. He just threw it in to show that on one issue his views surpisingly coincide with Catholic views. Don't forget that he didn't write the article for this site and not everybody in the world is one of 'his readers'. I just don't see the 'cheap verbal trick' you are accusing him of here. Although I wouldn't describe you as petty, I would say that this particular criticism is.

Other Comments by keith

38. Comment #66462 by stereoroid on August 30, 2007 at 3:41 am

 avatarIf I try to analyse the abortion issue objectively, it seems to me that we are obliged to force binary decisions on what is a naturally analogue process - the gestation of an embryo in to a child over 40 weeks.
- for or against,
- feels pain, or does not feel pain
- abort or carry to term
- foetus or child
- a human or an animal
- 1 or 0

When you draw an arbitrary line somewhere - 0 weeks, 12 weeks, 24 weeks, etc., and say "from this point, the foetus is a child and abortion is wrong", it's a compromise that is never going to please everyone. So I don't begrudge CH his opinion at all: being pre-Choice means you're don't believe one set of opinions should be forced on others, but it does not mean that you have to like the reality of abortion. In my view, this is a canonical case of "prevention is better than cure".

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39. Comment #66465 by stereoroid on August 30, 2007 at 3:51 am

 avatarOne more thing: did anyone notice the following CH statement?
I tend to believe that the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence.

On the one hand, this is an obvious logical fallacy - there might be evidence that you have not (yet) seen. I hope he doesn't literally believe that.

On the other hand, it's the kind of attitude I sometimes have to take, when faced with believers who see any expression of uncertainty as a chink in your armour. You try and tell them "when I don't know something, that doesn't mean your particular deity has the answer either", but it's not the best use of my time...

Other Comments by stereoroid

40. Comment #66466 by Robert Maynard on August 30, 2007 at 3:54 am

 avatarQuite a few of you are pushing your fellow humans up against the wall for statements they did not, in fact, make.

A strong distaste for something is not equal to a condemnation of the practice, nor is an endorsement of careful consideration. Although it may be his actual position, BigJohn did not actually articulate any position or personal policy regarding the carrying out of abortions, let alone misogynistic overtones of body control, as accused.
LeeLeeOne and Icculus hit the nail on the head: pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion, because (and I think BigJohn would agree) the bottom line is that prevention is better than cure.
It's cheaper, it's cleaner, it's indicative of a responsible sex life (in societies where contraceptives are readily available to women, please don't confuse that statement with the situation in developing countries with draconian womens rights. And I also hope nobody is stupid enough to accuse me of calling rape victims "irresponsible")
Abortions should never be embarrassing or difficult to access, but they also shouldn't be anxiously anticipated as a quasi- rite of passage.

BigJohn merely conveyed the opinion "Honestly, killing babies kinda sucks."
Critically, he did not equivocate any particular stage of pregancy with human agency or the nebulous notion of "personhood", another thing he was accused of doing.


Regarding the whole ballooning of this pitiful digression, why the fuck should you care what Hitchens thinks about abortion, or anything?
"Oh, don't worry folks, I'm sure he didn't mean it!" "No, no, see, Hitchie's still cool!"

It is a bad idea to try and think of Dawkins, Hitchens et al as "representatives" of atheism. You will find that you are not of entirely the same mind, and if you're not a goddamn child, you'll realise it's okay to disagree with people you admire, and still admire them.
For an example off the top of my head, I recall reading an anecdote where Dawkins, innocently making conversation with a journo, outlined a scenario where you had to choose between killing the last surviving elephant or letting it trample a human baby, and arguing that the former choice was narrow-minded specieism, and I remember thinking "Well, that was a dumb thing to say. In that situation it's unlikely you'd act on a reasoned decision, and more likely act on instinct to protect the baby, as the result of adaptations for proximal gene altruism you outlined in your first damn book, and if it's the last elephant, saving it would just be prolonging the inevitable. Must try harder. C" :P

They are atheists, and they're great examples of atheists, but they do not claim to represent anyone besides themselves, just as you are very likely your best representative.
And if you do disagree with them it would certainly be likely to make conversation more interesting, should you speak to them one day. :P

Hitchen's opinions are not some coupon deal, a packaged philosophy which you must subscribe to entirely to comfortably count yourself a fan.
Ideas have no owners, and you can claim allegiances a la carte, by all means.

"Gimme a Build Up That Wall combo, hold the penchant for alcohol and cigarettes."

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

41. Comment #66467 by anotherclinton on August 30, 2007 at 3:54 am

 avatarJust to chuck in my brace of dinari as a long-term Hitchens reader, he does believe that abortion is the premeditated taking of human life (and therefore abominable) and to confirm that he has a balanced view here, he's also very much against capital punishment. This is not to say that he rejects the Roe v. Wade decision as unconstitutional or wishes for it to be overturned as a matter of the nation's morals or is against the use of fetal tissue for science. Furthermore in god is not Great, he describes spontaneous abortion (that is to say the "natural" kind) as a genetic necessity for the species, in that the fitness of the mother and her other children would be abjectly affected in the forced care of a malformed or idiot child--surely not the opinion of an extreme right-to-lifer. He simply believes that the termination of a healthy pregnancy is a regrettable thing, not in the forcing of pregnant women to bring a child to term and commit the same to the state if the child is unwanted.

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42. Comment #66469 by Peacebeuponme on August 30, 2007 at 3:56 am

Veronique - I'm firmly in your camp when it comes to abortion, if it matters...

Just to wander elsewhere for fun, have you read Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" (thanks to those on this site for recommending)? I understand that the aborigines would have been unable to attain high population densities in Australia for various environmental reasons and not because they practised safe sex.

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43. Comment #66472 by Richard Morgan on August 30, 2007 at 4:33 am

keith :
I just don't see the 'cheap verbal trick' you are accusing him of here.
Right! That's the whole point. You don't see it.
You're not alone!
Most people don't either, which is why I need to point it out!
(Yeah - that sounds horribly pompous and supercilious, I know, but there again I am all that, so that's OK, no cognitive dissonance here.)
Let's back-track a little here. Christopher wrote this article initially for the readers of Newsweek which I understand has a fairly broad readership world-wide. But as he was penning this article, he knew full well that it would be picked up by all sorts of media - including the honorable R.D.Net.
But, surprise, surprise, the faith (or absence of) of mother Teresa becomes almost a secondary issue for the comments posters. All because of six words in brackets :
(and, if it matters, I concur).
In brackets, that means I suppose, incidental to the main subject and thus not particularly relevant.
In fact, so irrelevant to the main subject that posters have been getting their knickers in a twist over it all day!!
Does anybody believe that the Hitch himself would be surprised by this "topic drift"? ( a beautiful expression that I discovered here, if it matters, and which reminds me so much of my ex-wife...)
No? Me neither. But if not, why not?
Because C.H. is a very experienced and often talented writer and speaker, or, as we used to say in North Wales, a fine wordsmith.
He knew what he was doing when he "threw in" those six words. As a professional, he wants to get people talking, and preferably, talking about him. There's nothing wrong with that. And in these pages he has succeeded in getting himself talked about.
It's not his doing what journalists do that gets up my nostril, it's the naïvety of certain readers who should know better. Because like most of you, truth, reason and beauty are what matter to me most of all, not skill with words, or marking points in debates. And yes, I'm a little sad that we have allowed ourselves to get side-tracked by six bracketed words, which most readers will henceforth remember more vividly than the main points of the article.
Do you remember?
Mother Teresa's lack of faith?
Yeah - that Mother Teresa, well done.
Mark Twain once said : "Wagner's music is not as bad as it sounds."
And in fact, I'm not as nasty as I sound. It just that sometimes.....

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

44. Comment #66480 by Veronique on August 30, 2007 at 5:28 am

 avatar42. Comment #66469 by Peacebeuponme

Sure. I wouldn't deny that. The point is that our aborigines DID understand how to limit population growth and practiced a methodology that eludes us today. I suppose that what I am saying is that their 'world view' (now) was more cognisant of a population limit than the currently fractured view that people need to potentialise themselves by producing progeny in a world that can no longer accept such a level of population growth,

Yes, I have read Guns, Germs and Steel. I have also read Collapse, which is even more interesting. Reading Jared Diamond makes me say out loud, Yes, yes, yes. He is one very smart fellow, with well-expounded theses. But please don't discount the aborigines' understanding of population limiting and their methodology. It was part of that equation.

We can't even get it together NOW when its importance is paramount. And we have the revolting Roman Catholic hierarchy, too dim to understand that its stupid ideology (as interpreted by them) will disadvantage all of us, god rot them.

My best to you. i am glad that you are firmly in my? not just my camp. Bless you!
V

Other Comments by Veronique

45. Comment #66481 by CJ22 on August 30, 2007 at 5:28 am

 avatarOn the other hand, it's the kind of attitude I sometimes have to take, when faced with believers who see any expression of uncertainty as a chink in your armour. You try and tell them "when I don't know something, that doesn't mean your particular deity has the answer either", but it's not the best use of my time...

Yeah that pinged my attention too. I get it...sort of like this: "While technically speaking, absence of evidence may indeed not be evidence of absence, the bastards have had 2000 years to find any shred of evidence and have so far come up with nada. There comes a point where the CONSPICUOUS absence of evidence should, in any reasonable world-view, indicate absence as a working hypothesis."

You sound disturbingly like one of Brian's followers in 'The Life Of Brian'

Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: Yes, we're all individuals!
Man: I'm not...

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46. Comment #66483 by Ian on August 30, 2007 at 5:36 am

For what it's worth, I feel both sorry for Mother Teresa and just a little contempt.

I wonder what she expected and whether she had the right motive for doing what she did. Did she expect a special relationship with God? Did she do what she did so she could sit by God's side? If her primary motive wasn't to relieve suffering, then could she have done as much good as is claimed for her?

I'm also sorry that she didn't have the courage of her convictions. She allowed herself to be held up as an example to others when in fact, she had doubts of her own.

On the abortion issue, thank you Veronique for your antidote to the glibness which attaches itself to the topic. Though on opposite sides of the fence, we both have personal stakes in this.

When my grandmother realised she was pregnant with my mother - her thirteenth child - she drank an entire bottle of gin in order to trigger a miscarriage. It seems reasonable then to suppose that had abortion been available, neither my mother, brother, my two nieces or myself would ever have existed. Whatsmore, as an O negative blood doner, I am part of a chain of people who have saved the lives of even more.

Decisions about reproduction ramify and I feel too many people speak and act with little consideration of this fact.

I grew up with a parent who resented my very existence and I suffered for it, both in and out of the home. Yet for all I have been through, I am still glad to be alive, so when people argue that it is unfair to inflict that resentment upon a child I agree, but it does not justify an abortion.

Those who argue that a fetus is a ball of cells no better than a cancer have missed something very important: cancers only grow in size, they do not differentiate. A fetus may be a ball of cells, but these cells contain a unique combination of DNA. They are the early stages of a process, which leads to a new person. We were all at one time just such a ball of cells and to argue that it is okay to destroy such a thing because it feels no pain is like saying its okay to murder people in their sleep.

A fetus is not just human, it is all that exists of a new person. Whether conceived in the most serene marriage or brutal rape, that ball of cells is guiltless of its conception.

Of course the final decision must be with the mother - she contributes most to the process by a huge margin - but I think it reasonable to seek assurance that the interests of the unborn have not been disregarded and if the law has to intercede to ensure that, then so be it.

I find both sides in this issue very glib and guilty of gross confirmation bias. I feel for every woman - after all it is happenig to her body - but I also feel that giving a potential human no moral standing whatsoever is profoundly unjust.

Other Comments by Ian

47. Comment #66490 by BigJohn on August 30, 2007 at 5:53 am

 avatarI smiled, then I laughed at the vehement recital of abortionist dogma that my offhand remark about a single phrase generated. Thanks to Robert Maynard, I needn't say more.

I am still trying to find an essay or clip of Mr. Hitchens expounding on abortion. I find that many times he says exactly what I think, only he says it so very much better than I could ever dream of doing.

Other Comments by BigJohn

48. Comment #66491 by keith on August 30, 2007 at 5:57 am

 avatarRichard Morgan,

The fact that I can't see Hitchens' "and, if it matters, I concur" as a cheap verbal trick could indeed be due to my being a bit dense or it could equally be due to it not being a cheap verbal trick at all. I find it a completely normal thing to say.

I have to add that I find it hilarious that you think Hitchens in some way anticipated this digression on RD.net and this is why he included those six words. You say:

"Does anybody believe that the Hitch himself would be surprised by this "topic drift"?...
No? Me neither. But if not, why not?
...He knew what he was doing when he "threw in" those six words. As a professional, he wants to get people talking, and preferably, talking about him".

Until you wrote that then I thought you were just being a little pedantic. After reading that, I realise you must be completely mad. Have you recently read a book on text analysis and are trying to put it into practice, no matter how hard you have to force it? The truth is that the cheapest verbal trick was your:

"Does anyone believe...? No, me neither".

The suggestion being that you have the whole force of the contributors to this website behind you which, in reality, is probably far from being the case. Physician, heal thyself. Anyway, you continue:

"And yes, I'm a little sad that we have allowed ourselves to get side-tracked by six bracketed words, which most readers will henceforth remember more vividly than the main points of the article".

Firstly, I find it really touching that you're such a sensitive soul and are made sad by a digression on the internet. You must have led a fairly trouble-free existence if something so petty makes you sad. Secondly, of course the reason that I have spent so much time talkng about those six words is because you drew my attention to them, not because Hitchens was determined to get me talking about HIM HIM HIM. And just to indulge in a little homespun psychology, have you ever noticed how mean people see meanness everywhere they look? Without wanting to make this into a general rule, is it possible that in this case you see Hitchens as an attention-seeker because there is something of the same in you?

By the way, getting in before others and admitting to being 'horribly pompous and supercilious' doesn't make you any less so.

Other Comments by keith

49. Comment #66492 by Veronique on August 30, 2007 at 6:04 am

 avatarIan, hello mate.

I am somewhat pissed so I won't say much. This evening my son helped deliver his wife of a child. A boy, 5lbs 3 oz. What a delight for him and for an exhausted her. Would I gainsay that? Not at all.

I am a grandmother. Yeah!! The child grew normally within his mother. My bitch has a different bent and it's valid.

Goodnight
V

Other Comments by Veronique

50. Comment #66493 by Kubenzi on August 30, 2007 at 6:06 am

 avatarim an extremely liberal pro-choice minded individual and i dont see how having a distaste in abortion is hypocritical in any way.

someone above seemed to get a little emotional and hinted at opposition to abortion came from feelings of male-domination.on the contrary....

i see abortion as a result of a world population rooted in male domination.there are also women who will defend thier right to wear the burka,or to have genital mutilation done to themselves or thier daughters.i just cant fathom the idea that had human society been rooted in equality,that things like abortions,burkas,or genital mutilation would be agreed upon .had women been equal from day one,i believe these things would have been resolved long ago,by them.

being pro choice to me is like being pro band-aid.sure im all for it. it only dresses the wound though,it doesnt ADDRESS the wound.

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