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Print
Young Muslims begin dangerous fight for the right to abandon faith
by Times Online, David Charter
Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2426314.ece
A group of young Muslim apostates launches a campaign today, the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks on America, to make it easier to renounce Islam.
The provocative move reflects a growing rift between traditionalists and a younger generation raised on a diet of Dutch tolerance.
The Committee for Ex-Muslims promises to campaign for freedom of religion but has already upset the Islamic and political Establishments for stirring tensions among the million-strong Muslim community in the Netherlands.
Ehsan Jami, the committee's founder, who rejected Islam after the attack on the twin towers in 2001, has become the most talked-about public figure in the Netherlands. He has been forced into hiding after a series of death threats and a recent attack.
The threats are taken seriously after the murder in 2002 of Pim Fortuyn, an antiimmigration politician, and in 2004 of Theo Van Gogh, an antiIslam film-maker.
Speaking to The Times at a secret location before the committee's launch today, the Labour Party councillor said that the movement would declare war on radical Islam. Similar organisations campaigning for reform of the religion have sprung up across Europe and representatives from Britain and Germany will join the launch in The Hague today.
"Sharia schools say that they will kill the ones who leave Islam. In the West people get threatened, thrown out of their family, beaten up," Mr Jami said. "In Islam you are born Muslim. You do not even choose to be Muslim. We want that to change, so that people are free to choose who they want to be and what they want to believe in."
Mr Jami, 22, who has abandoned his studies as his political career has taken off, denied that the choice of September 11 was deliberately provocative towards the Islamic Establishment. "We chose the date because we want to make a clear statement that we no longer tolerate the intolerence of Islam, the terrorist attacks," he said.
"In 1965 the Church in Holland made a declaration that freedom of conscience is above hanging on to religion, so you can choose whether you are going to be a Christian or not. What we are seeking is the same thing for Islam."
Mr Jami, who has compared the rise of radical Islam to the threat from Nazism in the 1930s, is receiving only lukewarm support from his party which traditionally relies upon Muslim votes. His outspoken attack on radical Islam has led to a prelaunch walk-out from fellow committee founder Loubna Berrada, who herself rejected Islam.
She said: "I don't wish to confront Islam itself. I only want to spread the message that Muslims should be allowed to leave Islam behind without being threatened."
There have been suggestions that Mr Jami might defect to the right-wing Freedom Party, led by Geert Wilders, the most outspoken politician in the Netherlands, who has called for the Koran to be banned. But Mr Jami said: "I have respect for Wilders but we do not have the same ideology. I am for the freedom of religion.
"Banning something is not going to help. I am the opposite — everyone should read the Koran." Mr Jami is being compared to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali refugee who became a prominent Dutch politician campaigning for the reform of Islam but who left eventually for an academic career in the United States.
Jannie Groen, a writer for De Volksrant newspaper, said: "[Among Muslims] he is getting the same reaction as Ayaan Hirsi Ali that he is too confrontational but you are seeing other former Muslims now coming forward. So he has been able to put this issue of apostasy on the agenda, even though they do not want to be in the same room as him and he has had to pay a price."
By the Book
— 14 passages in the Koran refer to apostasy
— According to Baidhawi's commentary, Sura 4: 88-89 reads: "Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard."
— The hadith, tradition and legend about Muhammad and his followers used as a basis of Sharia, tells of some atheists who were brought to "'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this reached Ibn Abbas who said: 'If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostate forbade it . . . I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostate, 'Whoever changed his [Islamic] religion, then kill him'."
— According to hadith, a special reward in Paradise is reserved for the killer of apostates
Source: Times archives; Barnabas Fund
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2426314.ece
A group of young Muslim apostates launches a campaign today, the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks on America, to make it easier to renounce Islam.
The provocative move reflects a growing rift between traditionalists and a younger generation raised on a diet of Dutch tolerance.
The Committee for Ex-Muslims promises to campaign for freedom of religion but has already upset the Islamic and political Establishments for stirring tensions among the million-strong Muslim community in the Netherlands.
Ehsan Jami, the committee's founder, who rejected Islam after the attack on the twin towers in 2001, has become the most talked-about public figure in the Netherlands. He has been forced into hiding after a series of death threats and a recent attack.
The threats are taken seriously after the murder in 2002 of Pim Fortuyn, an antiimmigration politician, and in 2004 of Theo Van Gogh, an antiIslam film-maker.
Speaking to The Times at a secret location before the committee's launch today, the Labour Party councillor said that the movement would declare war on radical Islam. Similar organisations campaigning for reform of the religion have sprung up across Europe and representatives from Britain and Germany will join the launch in The Hague today.
"Sharia schools say that they will kill the ones who leave Islam. In the West people get threatened, thrown out of their family, beaten up," Mr Jami said. "In Islam you are born Muslim. You do not even choose to be Muslim. We want that to change, so that people are free to choose who they want to be and what they want to believe in."
Mr Jami, 22, who has abandoned his studies as his political career has taken off, denied that the choice of September 11 was deliberately provocative towards the Islamic Establishment. "We chose the date because we want to make a clear statement that we no longer tolerate the intolerence of Islam, the terrorist attacks," he said.
"In 1965 the Church in Holland made a declaration that freedom of conscience is above hanging on to religion, so you can choose whether you are going to be a Christian or not. What we are seeking is the same thing for Islam."
Mr Jami, who has compared the rise of radical Islam to the threat from Nazism in the 1930s, is receiving only lukewarm support from his party which traditionally relies upon Muslim votes. His outspoken attack on radical Islam has led to a prelaunch walk-out from fellow committee founder Loubna Berrada, who herself rejected Islam.
She said: "I don't wish to confront Islam itself. I only want to spread the message that Muslims should be allowed to leave Islam behind without being threatened."
There have been suggestions that Mr Jami might defect to the right-wing Freedom Party, led by Geert Wilders, the most outspoken politician in the Netherlands, who has called for the Koran to be banned. But Mr Jami said: "I have respect for Wilders but we do not have the same ideology. I am for the freedom of religion.
"Banning something is not going to help. I am the opposite — everyone should read the Koran." Mr Jami is being compared to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali refugee who became a prominent Dutch politician campaigning for the reform of Islam but who left eventually for an academic career in the United States.
Jannie Groen, a writer for De Volksrant newspaper, said: "[Among Muslims] he is getting the same reaction as Ayaan Hirsi Ali that he is too confrontational but you are seeing other former Muslims now coming forward. So he has been able to put this issue of apostasy on the agenda, even though they do not want to be in the same room as him and he has had to pay a price."
By the Book
— 14 passages in the Koran refer to apostasy
— According to Baidhawi's commentary, Sura 4: 88-89 reads: "Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard."
— The hadith, tradition and legend about Muhammad and his followers used as a basis of Sharia, tells of some atheists who were brought to "'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this reached Ibn Abbas who said: 'If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostate forbade it . . . I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostate, 'Whoever changed his [Islamic] religion, then kill him'."
— According to hadith, a special reward in Paradise is reserved for the killer of apostates
Source: Times archives; Barnabas Fund
Comments 1 - 50 of 74 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #69326 by MrEmpirical on September 10, 2007 at 10:41 pm
I hope this kind of thing becomes more widespread in Europe. As the Muslim population there grows, it will be important for anti-Islamist groups to be in place.Other Comments by MrEmpirical
3. Comment #69328 by BAEOZ on September 10, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Brave people, very brave. Especially to want to leave such a peaceful religion. Other Comments by BAEOZ
4. Comment #69329 by kraut on September 10, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Whosoever supports the hadith in this case is clearly in violation of the european laws of religious freedom and crimes of hate and should be either be dragged before the court or should have to leave the country.Any immigrant that violates the constitution of the country he settles in by supporting those statements of his/her holy book by deed or word is clearly comitting a criminal act and he should be treated as a criminal.
I am an immigrant myself and would have never dreamt of demanding a special treatment from the country I immigrated to. But it seems that especially those of muslim greed seem to be demanding special excemptions from the laws of the countries they immigrate to - and get away with it.
The last insult here in canada was the attempt to establish sharia law for muslim families in family courts (Ontario, where the nutcase canditate for "president" Mr. Tory tries to establish government funded religious schools and treats creationism as a valid theory). Luckily, despite the idiotic support by some politicians, the attempt went nowhere, after a vocal group of female muslims protested against this move.
Other Comments by kraut
5. Comment #69330 by Spiral on September 10, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Excellent!I wish him well.
Other Comments by Spiral
6. Comment #69331 by pewkatchoo on September 10, 2007 at 11:29 pm
If they are in Dutch, please feel free to send them to me Richard. I will do my best to translate them and get them back to you as soon as possible. I trust they are not too long though (^8. I am in Holland now, so if I have any difficulties myself I can always ask someone else for confirmation.I guess that you have my email address.
Other Comments by pewkatchoo
7. Comment #69332 by Ian on September 10, 2007 at 11:38 pm
Congratulations to Mr Jami and everyone who has the courage and integrity to stand peacefully for their rights.I wish the religious would realize that it is futile to legislate people's personal convictions. By definition, you cannot believe what you feel is untrue and because belief occures in the privacy of our heads, it cannot be forced by law.
The fact that the religious cannot respect people's right to disagree really only shows how shallow their own convictions are.
Other Comments by Ian
8. Comment #69334 by GBile on September 10, 2007 at 11:47 pm
She [Loubna Berrada] said: "I don't wish to confront Islam itself. I only want to spread the message that Muslims should be allowed to leave Islam behind without being threatened."
It seems to me that leaving IS the ultimate confrontation of Islam.
From dutch newspapers I understand that more ex-muslims are advocating 'respect' for Islam. I wonder what part of Islam they have in mind. Usama Bin Laden (sbuh) might not be a (the?) prophet but he clearly states that the 'peacefulness' of Islam will be clear for everyone to see, 'after everybody on earth has converted to Islam'.
No thanks.
Other Comments by GBile
9. Comment #69337 by AdrianB on September 11, 2007 at 12:00 am
As the population from the a Muslim background grows within Europe, it is of the utmost importance that there are more people like the brave Mr Jami.It must always be stressed that any criticism of the Islamic faith is NOT about race, but it is often used to stuff out criticism. Islam must be criticised from within.
Other Comments by AdrianB
10. Comment #69339 by Philip1978 on September 11, 2007 at 12:04 am
This is definitely a step in the right direction and I hope that all Muslim Apostates will eventually gain the right to have the freedom to choose what they want. I think its sickening that people's lives can be torn apart like this all because they dont want to believe in gods anymore.I have heard some awful stories about how people not only in the Muslim faith have been bullied and persecuted because of their lack of belief. It gives me hope to see people standing up to these dogmatic bullies, whether or not you can change the mind of fundamentalism is a difficult task, but not impossible and I hope they succeed. Change is needed and this is the way forward, its such a pity its such a dangerous thing for these people to be doing.
Philip
Other Comments by Philip1978
11. Comment #69342 by Corylus on September 11, 2007 at 12:15 am
Mr Jami, 22,
22! Is that right? If so, and he is responding to 9/11, he must have abandoned Islam at 16. Very brave. This shows why the mullahs are terrified of Western influence on their young people.
I sometimes find myself wondering whether that vile troglodyte Bin Laden's actions were as much about fostering division between western muslims and non-muslims as attacking America.
Nothing keeps hatred and terrorism going more than making everyday people pick sides due to 'faith'.
Other Comments by Corylus
12. Comment #69344 by black wolf on September 11, 2007 at 12:23 am
In Germany, sharia law is not officially tolerated as an alternative to federal jurisdiction. But it is secretly in practice, as more than a few muslims shun courts and turn to private 'scholars' instead. Other Comments by black wolf
13. Comment #69349 by HunterZolomon on September 11, 2007 at 1:04 am
Excellent news, I hope this group gets as much media coverage as possible. Get the snowball rolling! Other Comments by HunterZolomon
14. Comment #69350 by rokort on September 11, 2007 at 1:13 am
Dear Richard,as a native Dutch speaker you can also send them to me if you like (if only to reduce the burden for pewkatchoo).
When you need another address than my pm let me know.
Other Comments by rokort
15. Comment #69351 by ridelo on September 11, 2007 at 1:13 am
If the text to translate is too long I can also help. Possibly you'll find some 'dutchisms' in the translation but doubtless you'll find somebody to weed them out. Other Comments by ridelo
16. Comment #69356 by Goldy on September 11, 2007 at 1:23 am
Good luck to him. I was speaking to an Iraqi student today. She was aghast that I was an athiest. She could not believe anyone could not believe in God. I told her I was aghast that she, an Iraqi, knew nothing of Christianity. Nothing at all. Despite Tariq Azziz being a Christian, despite a very sizable Christian minority in Iraq (it is 15% in Syria, incidently) she knew nothing at all about Chritianity. I also told her that was one reason I was an athiest. Other Comments by Goldy
17. Comment #69359 by alexmzk on September 11, 2007 at 1:49 am
i've been reading articles here for a while now, but i only just signed up specifically so i could comment on this one, to express my sheer admiration for these people.i'm reading the Koran just now, finding it very hard going. it's amazingly brave for those people to try and speak out for free will and the right to leave Islam. i hope it works.
Other Comments by alexmzk
18. Comment #69363 by Prufrock on September 11, 2007 at 2:13 am
There are more than a few muslims out there who feel the same way as Ehsam Jani and his friends. I spent time living in Bradford with some Muslims.They complained of the tyranny and claustrophobia surrounding muslim and was unashamed in their respect for my intellect - that's an even bigger delusion than God!, but I like compliments even when they are not deserved - though I suspect they meant my freedom to think, not believe or believe as I chose.
They showed a great interest in my books, especially the ones written by Professor Dawkins and one written by Christoff Koch together with Francis Crick.
They even smiled at some of my impolite criticisms of religion in general and sometimes about muslims and their need to convert anything that moves.
But generally, they were good fun and I like fun.
What was interesting for me was that many said that they would probably choose islam or a faith if they felt a choice was given to them.
They felt the faith kept them centred and gave them a feeling of security they would not otherwise feel, especially after 9/11.
I don't want to speculate on the reasons for this because I really do believe in individual freedom to choose and furnish their internal landscape as they so please. I enjoy being me far too much and want others to enjoy being them. As Dr Benway would say "you, me, ours".
The important thing is freedom to choose and to be.
I guess this is why I like Daniel Dennett's idea to force everyone to learn everyone else's religion as an academic disciplins; so at least people are aware of their own absurdities before projecting or displacing their rigid certainties on anyone else.
Of all the places in Europe I have worked - as a Big 4 consultant - and lived, Holland is my favourite, simply because of their intelligent, secularised, creative and tolerant approach to me.
I would imagine, in spite of its administrative efforts it may have the same hidden issues as many other places, but at least they appear to try. It would be very interesting to read this Dutch article
Other Comments by Prufrock
19. Comment #69364 by RichardPrins on September 11, 2007 at 2:17 am
One more translator available here.Here's an English article on Ingeborg Beugel and her documentary.
Other Comments by RichardPrins
20. Comment #69366 by Zamboro on September 11, 2007 at 2:20 am
Hats off to them. I wish I could do more to protect them...if one sought shelter in my home I would provide it, no questions asked, for as long as they needed. Keep fighting you brave young men and women. The future belongs to thinkers like you.
Other Comments by Zamboro
21. Comment #69369 by Spiral on September 11, 2007 at 2:36 am
This raises a question:Is there a way to support and encourage these people?
Other Comments by Spiral
22. Comment #69376 by sornord on September 11, 2007 at 3:07 am
"Is there a way to support and encourage these people?"Get them and their stories & movement on television: CNN and other televised news media, attention-getting celebrities supporting the cause.
All must recognize, however, this carries an increased risk to these brave people.
I also note Mr. Jami compares the rise of radical Islam to the rise of Nazism, which I have done for years in private conversations. "Islamo-fascist" is the correct term. Fox News' Bill O'Reilly, love him or hate him, regularly uses this term and has at least nailed this one.
Other Comments by sornord
23. Comment #69377 by Crazymalc on September 11, 2007 at 3:07 am
Good luck and God speed.Err...
Maybe just good luck
Other Comments by Crazymalc
24. Comment #69382 by nizuri on September 11, 2007 at 3:25 am
The first step to remove religion.Other Comments by nizuri
25. Comment #69383 by rokort on September 11, 2007 at 3:35 am
Below is my quick and dirty translation (source here) of the letter sent out today from the Committee of Ex-Muslims to fifty politicians, scientists, journalists and writers:Dear,
The Committee for Ex-Muslims invites you to sign the 'Declaration of Support' now that the establishment of the Committee for Ex-Muslims is here. This declaration will be made public halfway through September at the official presentation of the Committee for Ex-Muslims, with mentioning of all signatories. We hope for at least fifty but rather a hundred signatures.
This invitation will be sent to dozens of Dutch and Belgian people visible in/to society; most of you are known in the area of freedom of religion and life's principles in relation to Islam. We have strived for a reasonable reflection of society: left and right, faith or no faith, Muslims or no Muslims, science, journalism, art, and especially politics. All party chairmen of the The House of Representatives of the States General will get an invitation.
The Committee for Ex-Muslims was established in April by Ehsan Jami and currently has five members. At the same time a committee of recommendation of the Committee for Ex-Muslims was established that, as of the beginning of august, will continue as Support Committee for Ex-Muslims.
The Committee for Ex-Muslims, the name says it already, consists of Ex-Muslims. They stand up for their right to individual freedom with regard to religious and life's principles, a right the Islam doesn't acknowledge.
The Support Declaration with the establisment of the Committee for Ex-Muslims is a sign from society, of people that stand up for that same right, but then especially because one of the ground rules of our society, individual freedom and life's principles, is under heavy pressure.
The declaration also serves to make known to Ex-Muslims they are not alone when standing up for this right. With all other activities of the Committee for Ex-Muslims, amongst which one has to think about criticizing Islam, the signatories of the Declaration of Support have nothing to do. We note that the Ex-Muslims are only named in the title of the Declaration.
The Committee for Ex-Muslims consists of signatories. Not like with the ones we invite to sign the Declaration of Support, there's only been a limited striving for reflection of society when constructing the Committee for Ex-Muslims. The Committee for Ex-Muslims has only a modest function: we mutually agreed about the text of the Declaration of Support and we invite you to sign the Declaration together with us. To make extra clear: if you sign it that's all, you will not be admitted in the Committee for Ex-Muslims.
The Declaration of Support is roughly 1200 words and consists of three parts:
* there's pointing out of a problem, namely fear for retaliation amongst people that are born in an Islamic environment when they want to lead their own way in religion and/or life's principles, for example by changing religion or when becoming an atheist, and wanting to openly testify this.
* a few short references to Dutch legislation, especially the horizontal acion of Article 6, and international law on human rights.
* crude propositions to attack this problem thoroughly and come to a recovery of individual freedom of religion and ones life's principles.
In case you consider to sign we would like to know this asap per email. We then also need a postal address of you. Shortly hereafter you will receive two printed versions of the Declaration via mail together with a stamped return-envelope. When you don't agree with the Declaration you send both copies back. Otherwise sign and return one copy and keep the other one for your own archive. By asking for dispatching of the Declaration you oblige yourself to not spread this till after its publication in September.
Regards,
Committee for Ex-Muslims
…and then comes a list of people in the committee…[rokort]
Other Comments by rokort
26. Comment #69384 by bitbutter on September 11, 2007 at 3:36 am
Another translation volunteer here also (Native english speaker living in the Netherlands), but i guess there are enough already!This is excellent news.
Other Comments by bitbutter
27. Comment #69386 by pewkatchoo on September 11, 2007 at 4:10 am
One small step forward in the Netherlands, ONE HUGE step backwards into the darkness in the UK.Just what do the NuLab sh1theads think they are doing, see link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6986398.stm
Other Comments by pewkatchoo
28. Comment #69387 by Henri Bergson on September 11, 2007 at 4:16 am
Good man – I truly hope he has a strong effect.It's quite notable that he begins his campaign today, at the same time a mass demonstration today in Brussels against the Islamication of Europe has been banned by their mayor.
I suspect that many people from Europe will go anyway, so it may prove interesting to read the news from Brussels tonight.
Other Comments by Henri Bergson
29. Comment #69390 by monoape on September 11, 2007 at 4:32 am
Copied and pasted (with minor edits) from Pharyngula:Islam, a religion younger than the other Abrahamic faiths, is simply going through the same homicidal and suicidal phase that characterised both early Jews and Christians. The older faiths have had reformations that forced a tiny little degree of tolerance into their philosophies. Islam is simply in the "normal" phase of any young faith, which is a murderous outrage and sense of ultimate entitlement to righteousness, resulting in the deaths of countless thousands.
Happens all the time.
Other Comments by monoape
30. Comment #69405 by USA_Limey on September 11, 2007 at 6:18 am
I know it's just the title of the article, but nevertheless it annoyed me a little - young Dutch muslims already have the right to abandon their faith don't they? That they might be subject to violent reprisals for publicly doing so in a democratic western country is shameful. This is just symptomatic of a wider malaise in my view. That we even need to have campaigns like this is representative of just how much we have been asleep at the wheel whilst fundamentalist Islam chips away at our perceptions of our own democratic freedoms. If people are threatened with violence it should be a matter for criminal law. Why the need for a campaign? Do I have to campaign for my right not be murdered or burgled? Of course not.
Dark days are still ahead for Europe I feel, they have not yet reached a tipping point. When they do, I feel sorry for the Muslims. Europe on the surface may seem so much more passive and meek than, say, the United States - but I believe it has the capacity for a much greater backlash. I have often commented to American colleagues here in the USA how amazed I was at the relative restraint of the US population immediately after 9/11. Yes there were some isolated incidences of random attacks against muslims but on the whole there were NOT the rivers of muslim blood that I for one, (Shamefully), expected to see.
I am not so sure it would have been the same in Europe. If London, or Paris, or Berlin had suffered an attack of the same magnitude as New York I truly believe the backlash against those countries muslim populations would have been far worse than anything we saw in the USA.
Keep pushing Islam, one day I fear you will rue the day.
Other Comments by USA_Limey
31. Comment #69406 by konquererz on September 11, 2007 at 6:31 am
This is how it begins. The only question is can it be sustained? Initially there will be lots of "apostates" and "heretics" that will want to stand out (relatively speaking in Islamic numbers). The big thing to look for is when the inevitable push back from radical Islam comes, will they still stand after the smoke clears. I'm cheering for them. Islam needs to come into the modern era and out of the dark ages already. Other Comments by konquererz
32. Comment #69410 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 6:50 am
I am also a native English speaker with a diploma in Dutch which is fluent; my wife is Dutch and her English is outstanding (she studied English literature at University). If any translations or reviews are needed, please feel free to contact me.On a more interesting note, I wonder if the Dutch speakers amongst us and certainly the resident Dutch would be interested in researching the state of affairs regarding, say, creationism in the Netherlands. Take a look around on the web and it's staggering to find the amount of creationist nuttiness there actually can be found in the Netherlands. I am sure that many of you will have heard of the debacle last July when the EO (evangelical broadcasting company) here in the Netherlands doctored the BBC series Life of Mammals by either not sending some commentary out, clipping sections and in the case of the portion of the documentary covering evolution, simply omitting it altogether.
Other Comments by Galactor
33. Comment #69411 by Dax on September 11, 2007 at 6:51 am
Dutch native, living in the USA, so I could be up to the task of translating those papers, too.The provocative move reflects a growing rift between traditionalists and a younger generation raised on a diet of Dutch tolerance.
Tolerance? The Netherlands? I cringe when I read that! Dutch "tolerance" is more like appeasement of religion, than true tolerance!
Other Comments by Dax
34. Comment #69415 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 7:07 am
Just an aside to my previous comment, the director of the EO is a Mr. Hank Hagoort; any similarity with a Mr. Ted "Shaghard" Haggard should not be overlooked.Just kidding.
Really.
Other Comments by Galactor
35. Comment #69416 by pewkatchoo on September 11, 2007 at 7:16 am
USA_LimeyThe problem here in the UK is the loony left. They have pretty much formed an unholy alliance with the muslim minority to help them gain what they want. The Labour Government even tried to introduce laws to cover incitement to religious hatred, which happily were turfed out by the Lords. This was clearly aimed at suppressing criticism of Islam. The ridiculous part of all this is that many muslims simply don't want this special treatment.
The battle against Islamic nonsense is an uphill struggle, but it could be so much easier if the government was a bit more sensible. They don't see any problems until they are too late.
I have already posted a link to a BBC article that shows the Governmental position on Faith Schools, particularly muslim schools. This is the sort of thing that really scares me more than anything else. I know that I will be getting out of the UK as soon as humanly possible, but it is still my country and I am very sad for it.
Beeb link again:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6986398.stm
We need to campaign strongly against this sort of thing.
Other Comments by pewkatchoo
36. Comment #69418 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 7:31 am
Here's some more information about creationist nuttiness in NL. According to the EO's website:http://www.eo.nl/eoportal/article.jsp?article=8467215
"[there is not much] doubt of God as the creator of the earth. Around 61% believes that God created the earth in six [twentyfour hour] days [up from 53% in 1997]"
The most recent membership count I can find is around 470,000, i.e., around 286,000 Dutch creationist fruitcakes believe in the young earth stuff.
Other Comments by Galactor
37. Comment #69419 by pewkatchoo on September 11, 2007 at 7:47 am
More Dutch religious nuttiness. This guy built a replica of Noah's Ark (he thinks).http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/nieuws/buitenland/448222
The Netherlands also has the highest proportion of muslims of any country in Europe.
Other Comments by pewkatchoo
38. Comment #69420 by Dr Benway on September 11, 2007 at 7:47 am
Good on the Dutch. They've carried a torch for freedom of conscience for a very long time. America owes a great debt to men like Adriaen van der Donck and the early colony at Manhattan.Islam will have to change from within. People within the religion must insist on their own freedom of conscience. Once there's a critical mass of Muslims and ex-Muslims insisting upon the right to question, including the right to leave the religion, the nutters will quiet down.
Other Comments by Dr Benway
39. Comment #69421 by USA_Limey on September 11, 2007 at 7:51 am
Pewkatchoo,Agreed on all counts. I did follow the link to the Beeb article on faith schools; it's a development I have followed since moving to the USA with sadness. That we would actually seek to create for the country as a whole the kind of division that prevails in Northern Ireland's faith based schools is beyond my ability to understand.
My only theory is that the government is so desperate to be shown making an effort to raise educational standards, (which are deplorable), that they will make whatever concessions are necessary to achieve them. Muslim schools teaching shariah law to kids? Sure, no problem as long as you get their grades in reading and math up as well.
That's the only reason I have come up with for this madness.
Other Comments by USA_Limey
40. Comment #69422 by rokort on September 11, 2007 at 8:00 am
Galactor,i was outraged when this became known, about the EO changing the mentioned BBC documentaries. Unfortunately, most of my friends, family and colleagues were like: why bother?
Comments ranged from "what do you expect from these nutcases" to "evolution is also nothing more than a lie", and that's most people wanted to say about it. What i think -although one could argue we have a rather benign group of IDers here- is that the constant twisting and lying and at the same time deliberate defamation of science is not something a lot of people bother about because they think it's harmless. Even when people have been killed or molested it's like: "well, you cannot say religites are all bad because only a few are angry or acting bad" (and how many times have we heard this before?).
Therefore the disputes here between pro- and non-faith heads is mostly nothing more than name calling and non-sequiturs. It's more about how things are said than what is said. When i mention in public i loathe Muslim law then i'm chastized for daring to make such a statement, all in the name of "tolerance".
Same old, same old, as if religion cannot be criticized.
Still a long way to go. Also here...
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41. Comment #69426 by Theocrapcy on September 11, 2007 at 8:07 am
I think it is astounding we need to set up organisations to make claim to rights we already have. Other Comments by Theocrapcy
42. Comment #69427 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 8:13 am
rokort I only found out about it when I got back from holiday late August when a lot of the dust had already settled. I was nonetheless shocked, after having delved into the issue, at how entrenched anti-evolutionism is in this country. I do get the distinct impression that there is a misinterpretation as to what Dutch "tolerance" is precisely. Often, it would certainly seem to be confused with ambivalence, apathy and that Dutch "right" to just get on with what one is doing and leave others alone and in turn be left alone.
It is extremely difficult, perhaps more so here than anywhere in Western Europe, to address this (creationist nuttiness) issue when (a) religion has the "pre-ordained protected rights" that you highlight and (b) there is such a sense of live and let live and the respect of the rights of others.
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43. Comment #69429 by deBeuk on September 11, 2007 at 8:14 am
@Mr. Dawkins: If you ever need a translator for Dutch articles feel free to contact me. I'm Dutch (born and raised) and have a proofreader in the form of my girlfriend, who's from the US and majored in English.Other Comments by deBeuk
44. Comment #69435 by the great teapot on September 11, 2007 at 8:47 am
I don't know how many dutch speakers out there are interested but if you haven't seen it already the Dutch series "God bestaat niet" (God doesn't exist) is available at the following linkhttp://www.rvu.nl/rvu.php?i=4&l=0&n=806
Hope the above works, I enjoyed it, even with limited dutch. The guests all speak clearly enough for even an hopeless case like me.
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45. Comment #69436 by rokort on September 11, 2007 at 8:48 am
Galactorvia eo.nl i just came to a link where they say that there's a book questioning the existence of Napoleon with the same line of reasoning used for denying the existence of Jezus. Well, there's enough data on the existence of Bonaparte so.......tadaaaa: Jezus existed!
I don't care whether Jezus was there some time ago or not, but this is what we're 'up against': people that don't care about facts or anything, just a convenient truth. And they don't give an arse that the whole world is watching.
And you're right, Dutch aren't all that tolerant, it's more about indifference, indeed. Well, not for me it ain't!
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46. Comment #69437 by ridelo on September 11, 2007 at 8:52 am
One reason to learn Dutch: Hans Teeuwen about religion.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHnC_MHIbLU
Some may find it offensive...
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47. Comment #69439 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 8:58 am
Great Teapot Thanks for the interesting links; they'll no doubt make good viewing.
rokort
Aah! The powers of reasoning of the faithful. I'd just like, one of these days, to put the famous sales "what will it take to get you to ride home in this car, today?" question to a creationist fruitloop, namely, the "what would it take for you to believe in the theory of evolution?" question and see what reaction they give. Compare this then to their presumable belief in the theory of gravity.
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48. Comment #69440 by Red Foot Okie on September 11, 2007 at 9:02 am
Ah, this is good to see. I hope their movement gains momentum and publicity. Theirs is a much harder road than mine.
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49. Comment #69441 by jimbob on September 11, 2007 at 9:03 am
Two comments:1. Ayaan Hirshi Ali's book "Infidel" is a must read for anybody who wants to support this initiative -- and it should be required reading for all politicians and educators too!
2. When are the leaders in the UK going to get brains enough to officially separate church and state? Anybody in the UK who wants to help get that idea going might find it helpful to work with American's United for Separation of Church and State.
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50. Comment #69446 by CoppertopHeathen on September 11, 2007 at 9:29 am
These apostates have every weapon at their disposal to defend themselves, namely, the LAW. They should seek protection from the Dutch government and the police. With their voices heard through the media networks, their budding movement could grow into a sizeable force to be feared and respected by Dutch Islamic groups, who, whether they like it or not, will have to respect the fundamental rights accorded to every Dutch citizen, even those who choose to forsake the religious indoctrination they grew up with. Other Comments by CoppertopHeathen
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1. Comment #69323 by Richard Dawkins on September 10, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Thank you
Richard
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