1. Comment #76077 by Matt H. on October 4, 2007 at 3:41 pm

"Rev. Rick Mason notes that atheism is on the rise. He blames Christian fundamentalism. Certainly the ineptness, dishonesty and lack of ethics of the overtly God-fearing Bush administration may be turning people off on God."

Or maybe, thanks to the new wave of books by such people as Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens have wakened many people up to reality?

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2. Comment #76085 by Veronique on October 4, 2007 at 4:35 pm

And what has secularism done to Norway? The Global Peace Index rates Norway the most peaceful country in the world. The Human Development Index, a comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education and standard of living, has ranked Norway No. 1 every year for the last five years.

Norway has the second highest GDP per capita in the world, an unemployment rate below 2 percent, and average hourly wages among the world's highest.

Well then, maybe we should send this little quote to all our pollies together with a plea to resist any religiously-based legislation. I think I might just do that as we have a federal election looming.

I hope that Norway has a decent immigration policy:-). As the nutters infiltrate more and more into governments and public service areas, there may be an influx of would-be immigrants into Norway as we turn our backs on our countries of birth:-).

Good morning all
V

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3. Comment #76091 by Rtambree on October 4, 2007 at 5:09 pm

The USA would have to shed two religions: Christianity and the belief in free-market capitalism if it's to follow Norway's example and climb up the rankings.

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4. Comment #76105 by tieInterceptor on October 4, 2007 at 6:11 pm

I can't believe some of the comments,

A small beer for $9???
I'm sure Norway is a beautiful country and I'd love to visit, but I think I'll pass giving up my US citizenship and moving there.

yeah, the Swedish system works, and there is an entire nation that proves it... but hey, "I prefer being 17th on the "2007 world democracy table" as long as the beer is cheap."


seriously... wtf? some people do not like to be told their are wrong, that's for sure.

http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_TABLE_2007_v3.pdf

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5. Comment #76125 by Theocrapcy on October 4, 2007 at 7:28 pm

"I'm sure Norway is a beautiful country and I'd love to visit, but I think I'll pass giving up my US citizenship and moving there."

Funny thing is a lot of people say that about the USA.

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6. Comment #76130 by Pieter on October 4, 2007 at 7:55 pm

Norway also has a lot of oil. Norway is also not a member of the EU. We should beware of attributing too much cause and effect. After all, wasn't there a paper on this website by some sociologists that claimed the reason why America was so religious was that it lacked a typical european social safety net (no free health care, etc) and therefore more people found comfort, security, and a communal safety net in their religion. Perhaps Norway is so secular because it is prosperous...

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7. Comment #76132 by Edanator on October 4, 2007 at 7:59 pm

Don't forget the wealth and lack-of-fear factors. The Scandinavian countries are rich, have great social security and public health care. Also, being geologically stable, having a good climate (as in not too extreme) and lacking external enemies make them very safe to live in. We don't know if they would be as secular if any of these factors were different.

(I'm Swedish myself and I know Russia is still a threat to be recognized.)

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8. Comment #76138 by asupcb on October 4, 2007 at 8:17 pm

Rtambree, the USA does not have a free-market economy it has a mixed market economy and has always practiced at the very least protectionist measures for various aspects of its economy (even Adam Smith complained about these measures). The US has never had a free market economy as most historians of economics should be able to tell you. It has typically been freer than most other countries in the world but that does not make a country have a free market economy in the same way that being the soberest drunk in a bar doesn't make a person sober. The US has lots of rhetoric about being free market when we're really not. Capitalist yes supporters of laissez-faire no. In fact our current economic system is based on the corporatist supply side economic model that favors the rich over others.

Also the US has a partially socialized/corporatized healthcare system. If you are poor you can get free health care otherwise you are on your own and when combined with how we regulate our corporations it essentially ensures that our citizens are screwed over. Essentially we have taken the worst of a socialist healthcare system and the worst of a corporate healthcare system left out a vibrant private business community and created the monster that we have today.

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9. Comment #76149 by Strappado on October 4, 2007 at 10:46 pm

I'm Norwegian myself, so this is good "news". I have been pushing that statistic of beliefs a lot. :)

Pieter: "Norway also has a lot of oil."
Actually, if you look at the other rich oil countries in the world you'll find that oil very often can have adverse effects. So it is actually quite an achievement to be able to pump up oil without just going crazy with all the money.

Apart from that, I agree that we can't attribute atheism as a source to all this welfare, but on the flipside it tend to settle arguments started by godfearing americans on how great a nation is if they believe in God. The case of Norway and many other European countries prove this argument to be wrong.

However, remember that Norway didn't become prosperous until about the early 90s or so. The foundations of secularism lies not in economy. We have religious education which probably has prevented the most hairraisng fundies to brainwash their children without them also getting input at school. This is something that USA lacks.

Actually, there's hundreds of reasons, but the old libertarian mantra that religon is a private matter isn't necessarily the best one for secularisation in the long run.

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10. Comment #76151 by Tumara Baap on October 4, 2007 at 11:03 pm

I agree with asupcb. The U.S. may have a zest for the free market, but it's not the easiest place to open and conduct business, has relatively high corporate tax rates, etc.
Health care in particular is a joke. One in the U.S. hears the refrain that Michael Moore's Sicko raises awareness, but that addressing the problem would lead to a bigger disaster. Obviously the perverted idea persists that we are reaping some benefits of a free market health system. There is little truth to this, if any. In actuality the system is as thirsty for our tax dollars as it is in collosal wastefulness. Paradoxically, it is an absence of efficient central streamlining that results in such a lousy system. A must read is this Economist article: An Unhealthy Burden
http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9407716

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11. Comment #76152 by Ick of the East on October 4, 2007 at 11:04 pm

Scandinavia may be nice, but every winter it seems that there are more Scandinavians here in Thailand than there are back home.

Which makes perfect sense to me.

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12. Comment #76157 by atp on October 4, 2007 at 11:49 pm

I don't think you should attribute peace to secularism. There is a correlation, yes. But what causes what is too complex for jumping to conclusions like that.

But here is something else to consider: There are few ill effects of secularism in Norway. Rejection of religion is not a problem. A secular society works very well, and religion is not necessary for having a good and peaceful society.

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13. Comment #76159 by Russell Blackford on October 4, 2007 at 11:54 pm

I don't think I could stand the winter, but it's a beautiful country in summer. I'd live there for a few months of the year like a shot if I could finance it somehow.

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14. Comment #76162 by Philip1978 on October 5, 2007 at 12:13 am

Woo hoo for Norway! If all countries could please kindly follow suit, would be a rather good idea!

Oddly enough, I am probably related to most of Norway, my grandfather married 3 times out there, suffice to say my family is huge and Strappado is possibly a distant cousin!!

skål

Philip

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15. Comment #76169 by BicycleRepairMan on October 5, 2007 at 12:41 am

As a Norwegian, I'm flattered, of course, It should be mentioned, in all fairness, that we are sitting on one of the largest oil reserves in the world, and we're less than 5 million people, so this is part of the reason, but then again, unlike other oil-rich nations, we are not divided by thousands of years of religious sectarianism and tribalism.

But its really frustrating to live here, and then hear of Americans attributing Columbine and Vtech etc to the "Moral decline" of society, and they laughably blame Marylin Manson etc..

Btw, Mention this to the evangelical, and I'm sure Church-burning, satanism and black metal will come up, but of course all that nonsense came down to a very small group of idiots with some quasi-religious motives,(inspired, of all things, by Norse mythology) and their posterboy, Varg Vikernes, is now considered a neo-nazi, obviously, that loser is probably heading for Evangelical Christianity next, having been through all the usual suspect phases that people with no friends go through.

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16. Comment #76176 by RainDear on October 5, 2007 at 1:29 am

Also, being geologically stable, having a good climate (as in not too extreme) and lacking external enemies make them very safe to live in. We don't know if they would be as secular if any of these factors were different.

Living in a Nordic country myself, I have to agree a history of stability makes it easier for a society to slowly develop into a secular one. Religion simply isn't an issue here, or at least it is a minor one. It's a personal thing and usually not to be discussed in public, kept to oneself like family problems, hereditary disease or embarassing birthmarks.

It seems that the basic Scandinavian version of religion is probably something "the new atheist" writers like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris wouldn't mind very much. All this god-stuff is not a big deal, so why write a book about it, most would say. I'd guess their sales are quite low in this part of the world. I had to order from Amazon.

However, this is a slow development. Religion is still alive here, it has not disappeared and probably won't for the next century. Perhaps never. But religion has been quietly reduced to a charming little cultural thing, a piece of folklore, a tradition with nice old songs and lovely holidays. Most people seem to respect the religious, because their darling old grandma is one of them and that nice young guy in the office is. But bringing religion to serious business, politics, science or art would be a major credibility risk, if not even a professional suicide.

And yet the main motto in Finland, fighting the Russians off in 1939-41, was "Home, religion, fatherland". I wonder if the same would emerge again, if the stable situation changed dramatically. Apparently threat, violence and insecurity feed religiousity. I don't deny the point Richard Dawkins makes when claiming there's a logical path form religious beliefs to evil deeds. But perhaps it mostly works the other way round.

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17. Comment #76216 by Pallinn on October 5, 2007 at 5:38 am

I don't think it's all that fair to throw the oil thing in Norway's face, it's not like they're propping up a weak economy with it. If I remember correctly they're pretty much just hoarding the money like the greedy little vikings we Scandinavians are!

Furthermore, we follow a Scandinavian model of sorts (whatever you may have heard, the Nordic countries actually have separate governments and tax policies...) here in Iceland, without a drop of oil money, and we seem to be doing alright.

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18. Comment #76233 by fides_et_ratio on October 5, 2007 at 7:00 am

'Depending on the definition of atheism'

Surely there's only one definition of athiesm, and by that definition only 26% of Norwegians are athiest. Not that many really.

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19. Comment #76234 by eirik on October 5, 2007 at 7:02 am

To put things in perspective, I think it is sort of important to remind that Norway had a Christian Democrat (a pastor no less) as Prime Minister for two non-consecutive terms well into this millenium. That said, political practice in Norway makes it taboo to bring up one's religious beliefs or (deities in general) unless it relates directly to the issue at hand. Religion is by most, religious or otherwise, considered to have no relevance in the public sphere. And thank God for that.

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20. Comment #76244 by Veronique on October 5, 2007 at 7:54 am

You won't stir this one up fides. We are awake to trolls. I guessed one of you guys would turn up on this thread.

Why don't you just go away, there's a good chap. Some of us are becoming irritated with the religious teasers that you guys post on here in the hope of sucking other posters into replying. We realise you throw these little lines in so that you can hijack these threads.

It is called trolling and we have seen you all before.

Have a cup of tea and a lie down. Read a good book
V

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21. Comment #76250 by irate_atheist on October 5, 2007 at 8:24 am

fides - You may not assume Veronique is referring to that good book...

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22. Comment #76253 by Mishakal on October 5, 2007 at 8:37 am

[quote]The USA would have to shed two religions: Christianity and the belief in free-market capitalism if it's to follow Norway's example and climb up the rankings.[/quote]

The only part of this that I agree with is the first part.

Capitalism isn't a religion, it is the only economic system that has ever been created that works.

Feudalism doesn't work.
Socialism doesn't work.
and last but not least Communism REALLY doesn't work (and is a religion in it's own right).

It's a simple fact.

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23. Comment #76267 by Rieux on October 5, 2007 at 9:28 am

fides:

Surely there's only one definition of athiesm, and by that definition only 26% of Norwegians are athiest.

Sure--to my understanding there's only one definition of athiesm: "Belief in athies." But the poll you cite doesn't show that any Norwegians believe in athies, so I don't know where you're getting this 26% nonsense.

Nor do I understand why you think the above article, or this website writ large, has anything to do with athiesm. How odd.

- Rieux, who is athier than most, but probably not the superlative

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24. Comment #76343 by hcholm on October 5, 2007 at 3:09 pm

There are a few of paradoxes worth mentioning, in addition to the Christian Democrat prime minister mentioned above:

- The Norwegian constitution of 1814 was modeled after the secular French and US constitutions, but §2 states that "the Evangelic-Lutheran religion remains the official state religion. Those inhabitants who confess to it, are obliged to raise their children in the same [religion]."

- Primary schools are obliged by law to "help give the students a christian and moral upbringing". (It is not stated anywhere what that could possibly mean.) A similar rule applies to public kindergartens.

- At least half the members of the government have to members of the state church.

- Norway is a monarchy, and the monarch is also head of the state church. The king or queen is not granted freedom of religion!

You'll find similar paradoxes in other Nordic countries. In my opinion, Norway offers more paradoxes than most countries, but the Nordic countries share some interesting features (with some exceptions):

- cool climate
- rich welfare states (in the case of Norway, even before the oil bonanza)
- peaceful, non-agressive foreign policies
- monarchies
- ... but strong democracies
- state religions, protestant
- ... but highly secular and atheist in general

Some of these characteristics apply to other protestant countries in North West Europe as well, especially the Netherlands. The Nordic countries diverge a lot in some areas, especially the practical implementation of their foreign policies, but I belive there are strong correlations to be found, despite various differences and the mentioned paradoxes.

It is an interesting theory that the widespread atheism in fact could be a result of having a state religion. In principle, I'm strongly against both monarchy and state religion, but perhaps monarchy and state religion are the safest ways of channeling and controlling certain irrational and potentionally dangerous genetically inherited dispositions in humans? At least it could look like it when you compare certain countries.

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25. Comment #76354 by fides_et_ratio on October 5, 2007 at 3:32 pm

I hate to labour the point, well that's not strictly true, but nonetheless, according to the article Norway is only 26% athiest, at which % does something become widespread?

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26. Comment #76360 by Johnny O on October 5, 2007 at 3:38 pm

I would like to point out that the article doesn't credit Atheism for Norway's success, it clearly states:

And what has secularism done to Norway?

They can be the most religious people on the planet yet still have a secular state.

We can't state that Stalin and Pol Pot didn't do what they did because they were Atheists and then try and claim Norway is successful because they are. At best we can show this as an example that Religion is not in any way needed when it comes to government and that it does not lead a country into moral decline.

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27. Comment #76370 by Veronique on October 5, 2007 at 4:02 pm

4. Comment #76105 by tieInterceptor

I just had a look at some of the comments, only the front page, though. I see that the commenters are getting into a debate about morality.

Let's hope it doesn't wind up with the thousands of comments that defined the McGrath thread here:-). Though I suppose the newspaper will close the comment thread before the debate fizzles out.

24. Comment #76343 by hcholm

Thanks for your comment:-).

It is an interesting theory that the widespread atheism in fact could be a result of having a state religion. In principle, I'm strongly against both monarchy and state religion, but perhaps monarchy and state religion are the safest ways of channeling and controlling certain irrational and potentionally dangerous genetically inherited dispositions in humans?

Interesting theory indeed. The 1814 Constitution deeming a state religion would have had little actual weight and could have been an apologist sop, I suppose. I would think that the watered down version of religion as she is practised in Europe has as much to do with the bitter religious wars that were fought. I don't think (but would love your take on it) that the passion for religion ever really recovered. Europe ended up with little heart for more war.

Cheers
V

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28. Comment #76372 by Veronique on October 5, 2007 at 4:22 pm

26. Comment #76360 by Johnny O

At best we can show this as an example that Religion is not in any way needed when it comes to government and that it does not lead a country into moral decline.

Nicely said and agreed. It's the separation of belief systems and government policy that is important. And a titular, as distinct from real, religion seems to work better and possibly, by and large performs the role mentioned by hcholm.

Cheers
V

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29. Comment #76435 by Strappado on October 5, 2007 at 9:32 pm

I agree with the latter posts here.

While certainly being principally against state religion, I am starting to see that it may have kept the fundies at bay.
But it's going to disappear, because now, also the Christians have understood that a state religion is a religion that is defined by the state.

In any case, I think the old battle against the State Church and religious education that Atheists have been fighting must be directed aginst religion, not merely against these institutions. We can fight both of course, but I want to see a country without religion, not a country without control of the religions. Those are two very different things.

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30. Comment #76511 by the great teapot on October 6, 2007 at 3:14 am

Eat Norways shorts Sweden.

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31. Comment #76513 by the great teapot on October 6, 2007 at 3:23 am

10% Go to church.
But is is possible that 74% believe. yeah right.
God is almighty, If I don't believe in him I will burn in hell, but you know I just can't find the time to go to church, but I really believe, honest.

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32. Comment #76522 by scottishgeologist on October 6, 2007 at 4:25 am

Pieter suggested that "Perhaps Norway is so secular because it is prosperous..."

Might be something in this and I have another example, from the UK.

I used to work in aberdeen, on the oil rigs. Aberdeen has always been wealthy - granite, fish and now oil (Oil of course being hugely beneficial to Norway)

Aberdeen must be one of the most secular, least religious cities in the UK. I dont have any figures, but the gut feeling is one of very low "church-going". All the time I worked there , ca 7 years, I dont think I personally knew anyone who went to church.

Used to have a great night life though!

SG

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33. Comment #76536 by povl400 on October 6, 2007 at 5:46 am

Well, not to be out done by Norway, we in Denmark have similar statistics regarding secularism but we don't have as much oil as Norway! It's a peaceful and civilized way of living and clearly the way forward for other nations. We have not yet had a great "new atheism" debate in Denmark (maybe because it is not so necessary!)but I would like to see it here as well. Any of the great debators (Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc.) are wellcome to visit us but I suppose their time is better spent elsewhere. And anyway would they be able to find opponents to debate with?

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34. Comment #76578 by posiedon on October 6, 2007 at 11:00 am

scotishgeologist,

Aberdeen must be one of the most secular, least religious cities in the UK.

Aberdeen may well be the least religious city, but I live in the least religious county, there are more derelict kirks up here, (Shetland) than you can shake a stick at.
Is it just a coincidence that the place is awash with oil money? being home to the biggest oil terminal in Europe.

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35. Comment #76586 by scottishgeologist on October 6, 2007 at 11:28 am

Posiedon

Interesting, that about Shetland. I used to travel to it regularly, but then it was just a case of getting off a plane from Aberdeen at Sumburgh and then getting the "paraffin budgie" out to a rig.

And then repeating it a fortnight later in reverse! I never really saw very much of Shetland - looks like a great place - any Shetlanders I have ever met have been great people. So it would have been nice to have been able to stop and visit for a while.

Just think, working as a geologist (probably one of the least religious of the sciences)living in the least religious city and travelling to the least religious county.

Only platform I ever heard of that had a "chapel" on it was the Ekofisk complex. And that is a Norwegian operation!! So we're back to Norway!

Piccie of Ekofisk here:

http://www.npd.no/engelsk/cwi/pbl/field_jpgs/43506_Ekofisk.jpg

SG

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36. Comment #76625 by Dr Benway on October 6, 2007 at 1:11 pm

The Lord shines His favor upon the nations that aren't constantly sucking up to Him. He can't stand a brown-noser.

Fides, the agnostics, pantheists, and vague transcendentalists belong to us. You may have Haggard, Fred Phelps, Osama, and that Anglican Bishop who said God flooded a few towns that weren't sufficiently oppressive toward gays.

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37. Comment #77011 by brainsys on October 8, 2007 at 7:00 am

So who created all those fjords ;-)

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38. Comment #77014 by steve99 on October 8, 2007 at 7:20 am

So who created all those fjords ;-)

Slartibartfast

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39. Comment #77021 by Scot Dutchy on October 8, 2007 at 7:48 am

Comment 24 mentions The Netherlands also as an example. While in some ways things are similer to Norway there are big differences. Here religion is part of politics. The present government is a coalition of Christian Democrats, Christian Union and the Labour Party.
The Dutch Reform Church is the official church.
I am also afraid that fundimentalism is very strong here especially in the bible belt (oh we do have one!). Even the Prime Minister is one.
Remember Amsterdam is not The Netherlands

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40. Comment #77935 by wren on October 11, 2007 at 7:00 am

From what I have read about Norway lately, they will soon be under sharia law.

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41. Comment #78419 by rabeldin on October 12, 2007 at 7:06 pm

I think that bartenders are keen observers of human nature. How many bars have you visited that post signs requesting patrons to avoid politics and religion in their barroom discussions? Both subjects bring out the worst in people. Perhaps we should require religious organizations to register as political parties and be governed by the same rules?

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42. Comment #79085 by Kristian Z on October 16, 2007 at 4:35 am

One significant difference I've noticed between Norway and the US when it comes to the effect of secularism, is in public debate. In the US, a politician can win an election by repeating "God bless America" ad nauseam. In Norway, it would be political suicide for any politican to mention God or Jesus in a debate. He'd be laughed out of the room and never win an elected seat again. At the very most they are allowed to make vague references to "Christian values", and only members of the small Christian Democratic Party dare do that, and even that causes smirks all across the room.

On a sadder not, officially and nominally Norway is a very religious country. The constitution declares Lutheran Evangelism as the religion of the state, the King has to adher to that religion, and at least 50% of the government have to be members of the state church. And the state church is allowed enlist members without their knowledge. I myself was enlisted in the state church, without my consent or knowledge. I stayed a member for ten years before I found out about it. The same goes for most of my friends and family, none of whom are religious. That's how the church manage to keep their membership as high as 80% of the population.

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43. Comment #175851 by JernJane on May 6, 2008 at 6:45 am

With regards to beer (and food in general - in fact - things in general) being expensive in Norway, let me just point out that it is only really expensive compared to your personal economy in relation to the economy of your own society.

I'm no economist of any sort, but I do understand that the word "expensive" is a relative term and it is first and foremost relative to your own personal netto income.

About Norway and secularism:

I believe the state church is completely obsolete and I also think Christians would be more happy with a solution that didn't let the government choose their bishops. They don't choose imams for Norwegian Muslims, so why should they control the church in that way? Obviously because Evangelistic Lutheran Christianity is the state religion. Norway is a pluralistic society. It should be treated as such with freedom of speech, religion, movement etc for all its (lawful) inhabitants, regardless.

Furthermore, Norway is increasingly secularistic. The law that allows favourable teaching of Christianity over other religions/world views in primary schools is on its way out of the legal system. The average Norwegian cares more for where their tax money end up than that their traditional views are taught as truth in schools. I think that speaks for itself and should be celebrated as a step in the right direction.

PS: I put "lawful" in parantheses because I do believe in punishment and imprisonment for criminals who commit horrendous acts such as pedophilia, rape, murder etc, much rather than therapy.

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44. Comment #176878 by Feltherre on May 8, 2008 at 8:15 am

Proud to be from Norway. And its interesting to hear from people abroad.

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45. Comment #179999 by Norwegian_girl on May 14, 2008 at 4:35 am

Hey guys! Good to se that americans are uodated about our growing secularization :). I am very praud of my contry, we have beautiful nature and is rich and human-oriented. There are people in Norway though that try to fight atheism and peace, but the most people are reasonable. We have had some problem with muslim people that come from very religious contry, but the most muslim in this contry respect Norway and the security we have.

Greetings from Silje :).

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