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Sunday, October 28, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Tests of faith over 'The Golden Compass'

by LA Times

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.calendarlive.com/tv/radio/cl-ca-golden28oct28,0,5769364.story

Also see:
The Golden Compass Official Movie Site
or view the trailer here at Apple.com:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/newline/thegoldencompass/

golden compassIn adapting Philip Pullman's novel, New Line is in a tight spot between the book's true-believer following and those who find it anti-religious.

By Gina Piccalo, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

DOES this scenario sound familiar? Movie studio bets the house on a beloved epic fantasy trilogy, filling fans of the novels with as much breathless anticipation as dread.

The studio is the same: New Line Cinema. But adapting "The Golden Compass" -- the first in Philip Pullman's complex and heady series "His Dark Materials" -- is far trickier a gamble than "The Lord of the Rings." This time around, New Line's grappling with a story that many perceive as anti-religious, written by an outspoken atheist who merges fairy tale characters with Christian theology, quantum physics and Nietzschean pondering. And it has entrusted the $180-million, special effects-heavy production to Chris Weitz, a director best known for his romantic comedies.

All this leaves New Line in a precarious spot, trying to please fans who relish Pullman's philosophical and theological puzzles without alienating the very bankable Christian masses.

Predictably, the film, opening Dec. 7, already has raised the ire of one outspoken conservative, Catholic League President William Donahue. Earlier this month, he called on Christians to boycott the movie because it will "seduce" parents into buying Pullman's "pro-atheist" book. Thus far, Donahue's blanket mailing to media and other religious groups of his exhaustive 30-page brochure titled "The Golden Compass: Agenda Unmasked" seems to have done little more than help promote the film.

Of course, all that hubbub about Harry Potter promoting witchcraft to kids didn't stop that franchise from becoming the highest-grossing film series of all time. But Donahue's protest got the attention of James Dobson's evangelical Christian behemoth Focus on the Family, the moral activists who review films and books for an audience of 5 million -- though even that group's protests of Fox Searchlight's 2004 film on pioneering sex researcher "Kinsey" and the TV cartoon "SpongeBob Squarepants" didn't significantly affect viewership of either. That group expects to take a stand on the film and the trilogy next month.

Pullman fans, meanwhile, seem to be conflicted about Hollywood's take on the series. Around the same time that Donahue piped up this month, Weitz prompted anguished cries from fans with his announcement that the script (which he is adapting) would not include the book's last three cliffhanger chapters. Instead, those will be pushed into the sequel "The Subtle Knife," a film the studio has yet to confirm. One despairing fan vowed not to see the film and declared on fansite HisDarkMaterials.org that the change marked "the death of Golden Compass (the movie)."

A few days later, Britain's National Secular Society, of which Pullman is an honorary associate, told the U.K.'s Observer that the filmmakers were "taking the heart" out of the series by removing its "anti-religious elements."

Weitz has kept fans apprised of the reasoning behind his decisions and Pullman has consistently chimed his enthusiasm for the production, the casting and the script. Indeed, Pullman has helped write a number of scenes for the film and has always wanted Nicole Kidman in the role of Mrs. Coulter, an evil beauty with bewitching charm.

"I'm very happy with the work the filmmakers have done," he wrote in an Oct. 11 post on his website. "And no one wants this film to succeed more, or believes in it more firmly, than I do."

As for the debate over the film's handling of the book's theological themes, Weitz considers that "a bit of a tempest in a teapot."

"I believe the film is about honor and courage and loyalty and free choice and the human will and it's not really about all the issues people are really keen to slam us with," he said, calling from the famed Abbey Road recording studio in London where he was completing the film's music. "It's coming from people who are unwilling to read the books with an open mind."

Parallel universe

THE "Golden Compass" movie is set in a parallel universe similar to Oxford, England, where everyone's soul is physically manifested as a "daemon" or talking animal counselor. Witch clans patrol from the skies and warrior polar bears do battle. The malevolent governing body "the Magisterium" -- also referenced in the book as "the Church" -- is racing to decipher the true nature of the mystical particles known as "Dust" by kidnapping children and cutting away the invisible thread that bonds them to their daemons, which, in essence, removes their souls. Lyra Belacqua (12-year-old newcomer Dakota Blue Richards), a canny urchin raised by scholars, is thrust into the drama when her best friend is snatched.

But to rescue him, Lyra must outwit Kidman's Mrs. Coulter as well as her ex-lover, the mysterious Lord Asriel, played by Daniel Craig, and survive all nature of mythological adversaries along the way.

"The Golden Compass" was first published in the U.K. by Scholastic in 1995 as "Northern Lights," and the book was selected by judges of the Carnegie Medal as one of the 10 most important children's novels of the past 70 years. "The Subtle Knife" was published in 1997, followed in 2000 by "The Amber Spyglass." New Line bought the film rights to the series in 2002.

Pullman fans rival those of J.R.R. Tolkien and J.K. Rowling in their fervor. During the three years it has taken to bring "The Golden Compass" to the screen, they crafted homemade fan films to satisfy their yearning. On websites such as His DarkMaterials.org and BridgetotheStars .net, they track every slight deviation the screenplay makes from the novel. Some still bemoan that Kidman's Mrs. Coulter has blond hair, not black as the character had in the book.

Pullman himself has long denied that his books are anti-Catholic. He was unavailable to comment, the studio said, because of scheduling conflicts. But in a 2004 post still featured on his website Philip-Pullman.com, he wrote that his main quarrel is with the "literalist, fundamentalist nature of absolute power" and "those who pervert and misuse religion, or any other kind of doctrine with a holy book and a priesthood and an apparatus of power that wields unchallengeable authority, in order to dominate and suppress human freedoms."

Still, fans energetically debate Pullman's intent. Some consider his trilogy a cutting-edge work of Christian theology.

Pullman's refutations aside, Catholic theology in the books is depicted as sinister and the villains are often cardinals and priests. The "Church," or the "Magisterium," answers to the "Vatican Council," and kidnaps children, tortures witches and aims to suppress all natural impulses and control the world. In one book, "Dust" is described as the physical manifestation of Original Sin.

In the film, however, there's no mention of the Church or Catholicism. The bad guys are known only as the Magisterium, which in fact is the term the Roman Catholic Church uses to describe its body charged with interpreting "the Word of God." Weitz, who described himself on one fan site as "a lapsed Catholic crypto-Buddhist," explained those changes to fans in 2004 as a way to allay the studio's early concern that the "perceived anti-religiosity" of "His Dark Materials" would make the franchise "an unviable project."

Kidman, who was raised Catholic, spoke up in defense of the film, telling Entertainment Weekly last summer "the Catholic Church is part of my essence. I wouldn't be able to do this film if I thought it were at all anti-Catholic." Weitz said she has already tentatively signed on to star in the sequel "The Subtle Knife" should there be one. Though the studio won't commit to a second or third film before "Compass" proves to be a box office success, screenwriter Hossein Amini was hired early this year to adapt "The Subtle Knife."

Weitz has called "The Golden Compass" "the most important work of my life." It's by far the largest and most expensive. The film includes 1,100 special effects shots created by half a dozen or so effects houses. Weitz is best known for the comedies "American Pie" and "About a Boy"; his most expensive film was 2001's "Down to Earth," with a budget of $35 million.

In fact, Weitz famously had such early qualms about the project's enormity he quit the production in late 2004 and returned only after the studio fired his replacement, director Anand Tucker.

Making a point

NEW LINE executives would not directly address the Catholic League's protest or the film's handling of religious themes. Chris Carlisle, the studio's president of theatrical marketing, said in a statement only that the film "is an exciting fantasy adventure film that we believe families will enjoy."

But the studio made its point in other ways. One studio spokeswoman pointed to an Oct. 16 article in Wales' Western Mail newspaper in which Pullman complained that "this must be the only film attacked in the same week for being too religious and for being anti-religious -- and by people who haven't seen it."

"Golden Compass" producer Kyle Good helped further the conversation without actually granting an interview. Good wrangled author Donna Freitas, an assistant professor of religion at Boston University who, with Jason King, co-wrote "Killing the Impostor God: Philip Pullman's Spiritual Imagination in His Dark Materials," published last month. (Freitas said she wasn't helping market the film, but her book "serendipitously" addressed many of the issues raised by the League's protest, so she obliged the studio's request that she speak with The Times.)

"This is a thrilling, cutting-edge work of Christian theology," said Freitas, who is Catholic. "What's distressing about [League President] Bill Donahue's message is he's talking about 'His Dark Materials' as if it's this atheist manifesto geared at children. He's forgetting this is a wonderful literary fantasy for children. It's a story first."

That may be true for books, but movie adaptations are often on a different page. Riding on the coattails of this fancy yarn are hundreds of millions of dollars, more than a few careers and the loyalties of an army of fans. But if New Line gets this one right, look out Harry, little Lyra's going to give you a run for your money.

gina.piccalo@latimes.com

Comments 1 - 50 of 71 |

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1. Comment #83268 by Klaatu barada nikto on October 29, 2007 at 1:24 pm

 avatarA Christian co-worker sent me this in an email today.



>I stumbled across this today at www.snopes.com
>http://snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp
>
>There is a new movie coming out with Nicole Kidman called The Compass
>which

>is supposed to be a "fantasy" kid movie.

Well, the guy that wrote it is atheist and ends up killing God in this movie.

Just check out the link above and send it out to as many people as you know so they will know that Hollywood has tried to be low key about it but the truth needs to come out.


It's funny that it ends with "the truth needs to come out."

Other Comments by Klaatu barada nikto

2. Comment #83288 by boozec on October 29, 2007 at 2:03 pm

These books are hardly anti-religous.

"But many other tenets of Christianity remain intact: the belief that spirituality, rather than science, can explain the world; and the idea that it is natural for women to subordinate themselves to men. When Lyra returns to her Oxford, where only men attend university, she can only hope to be educated at a less-prestigious women's college. And her attachment to Will has robbed her of her only power: reading the golden compass of truth. If Lyra's transformation from hero to second-class citizen is what passes for anti-Christian storytelling, maybe we should be looking for a new way out of the religion problem."

http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/47131/

Other Comments by boozec

3. Comment #83290 by mmurray on October 29, 2007 at 2:12 pm

 avatar
If Lyra's transformation from hero to second-class citizen is what passes for anti-Christian storytelling, maybe we should be looking for a new way out of the religion problem.


I don't see why they can't be anti-Christian but also old fashioned in their treatment of women? But in any case they're stories -- not `a way of of the religion problem.'

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

4. Comment #83293 by Quine on October 29, 2007 at 2:26 pm

 avatarTake a look at the previews.

EDIT: As time goes on and people see that folks like Tolkien, Rowling, and Pullman can just make up entire worlds, it becomes easier to see how other folks in times long ago could just make up religions. P.S. I am going to hand out copies of the books at Xmas to all the kids I know.






Other Comments by Quine

5. Comment #83297 by bluebird on October 29, 2007 at 2:41 pm

 avatarFrom the snopes.com link:
"Buy a $3 booklet...you'll be armed with ammo to convince family/friends there is nothing innocent about Pullman' agenda...twin goals are to promote atheism and denigrate Christianity to kids".

The steamroller is relentless...'kill,crush,destroy' any idea or action that's not permitted by the church.

As the article intimates, the hub-bub may make Christian kids even more curious to see it. If the movie makes them think outside the box, good!!

Other Comments by bluebird

6. Comment #83300 by Cartomancer on October 29, 2007 at 2:54 pm

 avatar"The "Golden Compass" movie is set in a parallel universe similar to Oxford, England, where everyone's soul is physically manifested as a "daemon" or talking animal counselor. Witch clans patrol from the skies and warrior polar bears do battle. The malevolent governing body "the Magisterium" -- also referenced in the book as "the Church" -- is racing to decipher the true nature of the mystical particles known as "Dust" by kidnapping children and cutting away the invisible thread that bonds them to their daemons, which, in essence, removes their souls"

So what fantasy elements does he introduce to differentiate it from the real University of Oxford then?

Other Comments by Cartomancer

7. Comment #83301 by Dax on October 29, 2007 at 2:54 pm

 avatarI'm reading the book right now and so far I, as an adult, enjoy it. I wonder why people are making such a fuzz about this movie. Donahue already complained in a previous article that this movie is about selling religious ideas to kids, and that was, according to him, the rub... strange, I never heard him complain when Narnia was released, with Jesus, euh, Aslan, and all. Or the 10 Commandments, Mozes and all other cartoons targeting kids.
Double standards?

Other Comments by Dax

8. Comment #83303 by mandrellian on October 29, 2007 at 3:00 pm

"...there is nothing innocent about Pullman's agenda...twin goals are to promote atheism and denigrate Christianity to kids"."

Right, and I'm sure no Christian would ever want to promote a parochial faith or denigrate freethinking to children ...

Other Comments by mandrellian

9. Comment #83312 by Geoff on October 29, 2007 at 3:41 pm

 avatarI read the books about ten years ago, and thoroughly enjoyed them, although until I read down the article I was confused by the title (Northern Lights, originally)- why do publishers change book titles for the US market? They did it with the first Harry Potter too.

Any publicity is good publicity - let them make all the fuss they want (just as they did with HP, and "Life of Brian", to name but two). They're just narked because it doesn't agree with their favourite fiction book.

Other Comments by Geoff

10. Comment #83314 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on October 29, 2007 at 3:46 pm

 avatarActually I think it is a pretty subtle attack on Christianity. I liked it though, even when I was a Christian. It may have helped now I think about it ....

Brilliant books, and my daughter loved them!

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

11. Comment #83315 by Kakashi_monkey on October 29, 2007 at 3:52 pm

 avatarInteresting sounding movies. I might mosey over to the theaters and see them. It's about time atheist movies are released, especially with "Evan Almighty" lurking around.

Other Comments by Kakashi_monkey

12. Comment #83317 by Bonzai on October 29, 2007 at 4:00 pm

 avatarThere seems to be a hint of gnostic Christianity to it. In the trilogy "the Authority" (God)is depicted as a cosmic tyrant of the mode of the OT. He deceived the angels by claiming to be the creator of the multiverse and the One True God. The angels rebelled when they found out the truth and a heavenly civil war broke out. In the end the Authority died and his celestial absolute Monarchy was overthrown.

Other Comments by Bonzai

13. Comment #83319 by mmurray on October 29, 2007 at 4:09 pm

 avatar
So what fantasy elements does he introduce to differentiate it from the real University of Oxford then?


Well everybody has an animal called a daemon which is essentially their soul/life force. It can move around near them but not very far away.

His parallel universe is really a parallel universe in the sense of the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. So the differences are subtle mostly. There are some technological differences -- I think steam replaces petrol that sort of thing. It is awhile since I read them. I thought there were a lot of fun but I like fantasy books and have been on a lifetimes quest to find something as good as Lord of the Rings. Haven't found it yet.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

14. Comment #83323 by coretemprising on October 29, 2007 at 4:28 pm

All that money for one more movie. Better spent elsewhere. Bah.



Other Comments by coretemprising

15. Comment #83328 by mark8 on October 29, 2007 at 5:02 pm

 avatarFox news article
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,305487,00.html

Other Comments by mark8

16. Comment #83336 by alexmzk on October 29, 2007 at 5:51 pm

"Earlier this month, he [William Donohue] called on Christians to boycott the movie because it will "seduce" parents into buying Pullman's "pro-atheist" book."

"fucktard" is not strong enough. if people were boycotting a film for being pro-catholic, there'd be outrage.
i really feel that the Dark Materials trilogy did a lot to help me feel i could actually criticise religion when i read it as a teenager. the books are not explicitly anti-Catholic, but they certainly put forward loads of philosophy that's amazing to read at that age. it's upsetting that they're removing the religious element from the film - almost like undermining Pullman's credibility by turning it into a straight-out fantasy film for kids.

Other Comments by alexmzk

17. Comment #83339 by Linda on October 29, 2007 at 6:09 pm

Pullman's review of TGD:
"I've read this with pleasure and satisfaction. Dawkins is a great rationalist, but he is also a good man. History has seen a number of supreme rationalists who weren't good at all. He gives human sympathies and emotions their proper value, which is one of the things that lends his criticisms of religion such force, because many religious leaders in the world today – certainly the loudest ones – are men who, it's obvious to anyone but their deranged followers, are willing to sanction vicious cruelty in the service of their faith. Dawkins hits them hard, with all the power that reason can wield, demolishing their preposterous attempts to prove the existence of God, or their presumptuous claims that religion is the only basis of morality, or that their holy books are literally true."

The God Delusion is written with all the clarity and elegance of which Dawkins is a master. It is so well written, in fact, that children deserve to read it as well as adults. It should have a place in every school library — especially in the library of every 'faith' school. Naturally, it won't. But with any luck, the teachers in these ridiculous establishments will ban it from their shelves, and thus draw the attention of the intelligent pupils in their care to something that might be interesting as well as true."

Philip Pullman, author of the children's trilogy His Dark Materials.
http://richarddawkins.net/mainPage.php?bodyPage=godDelusion.php

I hope that Pullman does not let his fans down and that His Dark Materials on film is as honest as the books and sublime as the National Theatre stage production.

Other Comments by Linda

18. Comment #83340 by Damien White on October 29, 2007 at 6:11 pm

Perhaps the church's opposition to this could be a good thing. If the film is atheistic (and I can't comment, having not [yet] read the books) does that mean that if it is a runaway success ala Harry Potter, then atheists can claim those numbers as evidence of growing mainstream support?

Other Comments by Damien White

19. Comment #83342 by Crazymalc on October 29, 2007 at 6:16 pm

 avatarErr... Why problem did the have with my main main Spongebob Squarepants?

Please don't tell me that they thought he was gay...

Other Comments by Crazymalc

20. Comment #83346 by boozec on October 29, 2007 at 6:33 pm

Fox News link:

""They're intentionally watering down the most offensive element," Donohue said. "I'm not really concerned about the movie, [which] looks fairly innocuous. The movie is made for the books. ... It's a deceitful, stealth campaign. Pullman is hoping his books will fly off the shelves at Christmastime.""

You can't win with these people.

Other Comments by boozec

21. Comment #83351 by Frankus1122 on October 29, 2007 at 6:55 pm

 avatarCrazymalc:
Patrick was the gay one.

I have been teaching this book to grade seven students for a few years now. I am particularly excited that the film is coming out this year. We have a class trip planned to see it when it comes out. However, I do have some fairly religious kids in my class. I wonder if the press attention will get the parents' knickers in a knot.
One of the things I find very useful with this book is it gets the students to think in ways they perhaps haven't before. I try to push them into higher levels of thinking. The characters are complex. It forces the students to critically evaluate the characters motivations. Mrs. Coulter is a pretty bad person, but is she wholly evil? The same goes for Asriel. People's beliefs cause them to do some very nasty things in this book. Is this true of our world?
There is a question raised in this book that I have been pondering for a while: Original sin is the knowledge of good and evil. Is that right? It was wrong for us to disobey god and because of that we know what is good and what is bad. So knowledge is bad - sinful. Ignorance is bliss.
That isn't really a question but it doesn't sit right with me. I don't get it. If I don't get it, I question why.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

22. Comment #83358 by Quine on October 29, 2007 at 7:29 pm

 avatar
Original sin is the knowledge of good and evil. Is that right? It was wrong for us to disobey god and because of that we know what is good and what is bad. So knowledge is bad - sinful. Ignorance is bliss.


Yes, this bothered me as a kid. Sin requires the knowledge of evil (you have to know what you are about to do is a sin), but in the story neither Eve nor subsequently Adam had this before the apple. So original sin was not logically possible, no matter what they did. (I was not a good kid to have in your religion class.)




Other Comments by Quine

23. Comment #83361 by ? on October 29, 2007 at 7:42 pm

 avatarGreat writing often contains anti-religious and anti-clerical barbs, as well as "heretical" reinterpretations of conventional religious views. Pullman is only one recent example.

These agitators for cencorship are like something out of the big 20th Century dictatorships. Art is useless or dangerous except as propaganda for their preconcieved "truth" and authoritarian agenda. (That appalling Donahue character seems born to be America's Goebells or Beria with his relentless bullying, worship of power and obsession with ideological purity)

Since they cannot hold their own in a reasonable discussion, all criticism and alternate points of view are seen as destructive. Someone should make a film of "Candide" just to watch them make anti-intellectual, bigoted fools of themselves attacking it! I guess the Muslims would get in on that one, too.

Other Comments by ?

24. Comment #83363 by Serious on October 29, 2007 at 7:55 pm

Hmmm. It would be hard to buy this kind of advanced publicity.

Other Comments by Serious

25. Comment #83364 by notbadfora human on October 29, 2007 at 7:58 pm

 avatar"a bit of a tempest in a teapot"

Would that be the china teapot orbiting the sun?

Bil(ius) Donahue and his ilk are pricks with warped world viewpoints. Catholic League... let them do their worst. As it has been pointed out, this will only get more bums on cinema seats.

"it will "seduce" parents into buying Pullman's "pro-atheist" book"

Really? I remember reading this book years ago and couldn't have cared less about it's not-so-subtle subcontext. How many kids will give a shit about that when you have armored polar bears?!

Other Comments by notbadfora human

26. Comment #83377 by Jason P on October 29, 2007 at 9:35 pm

His Dark Materials is amazing. Reading the books laid the foundation for my conversion to atheism. I highly recommend them to you, your kids, and all your friends. These attacks are disturbing, but not surprising. The Catholic League is frightened.

Philip Pullman is a confirmed atheist, and is completely on Richard Dawkins' side - see his passionate blurbs for TGD. The books make use of mystical elements and gnostic myth because they are fantasy books. They're not a direct depiction of Pullman's literal worldview. But they are harshly critical of the Church in a parallel universe, as well as of the impostor god worshipped by followers of Abrahamic religions in all the parallel universes. The books have a completely secular and uplifting secular humanist message, and are a powerful argument for the possibility and necessity of living the good life without god.

No one has seen the movie except New Line, so no one knows how much they've kept in. However, the bad guys, who are even worse than they are in the books, are called The Magisterium (clearly a religious group), their agents are dressed like priests and use words like "heresy," and in one early image from the set, a Magisterium seal included a Latin inscription reading "One Church Above All." For what it's worth, Philip Pullman has said numerous times how pleased he is with the film.

For more information about the books and films, check out www.hisdarkmaterials.org

As for the column which was quoted earlier and used in support of the claim that the books are not atheistic or humanistic, the column is hogwash. As I said, you have to expect some mystery and some "supernatural" in the sense of "not what exists in real life as far as we know" elements in a work of fantasy/sci fi. It's fiction. And as for gender roles, the writer really picked the wrong fight. Lyra is an incredibly strong, compelling heroine who has managed to appeal to all ages and both (all?) genders as few female protagonists in young adult fiction have. The books are always centered upon her - Will is important, but his role is to help Lyra. Just because he has a knife doesn't mean that he's a Freudian oppressor.

As for the claim that most kids don't get the "subtext," think again, and as I said, check out the website. The books are very serious in their philosophical content and have inspired numerous books of commentary. The philosophy and the humanism is right there in with the incredible storytelling. You have to deliberately shut yourself off to the former in order not to engage. It is a work which makes you think.

Other Comments by Jason P

27. Comment #83381 by Ashley1319 on October 29, 2007 at 9:43 pm

Hm. I do believe that there is a sort of Anti-fundamentalism in the book. Pullman uses the most powerful organization in the world to show how blind faith and dogma will destroy: the Catholic Church. It's not like he was just poking the Catholics in the eye: he's poking all anti-intellectuals in the eye. The books are about the dangers of fanaticism, and of being too quick to label people as evil(the witch covens for example.)
Also, I love how Pullman demonstrates in his books about the way that fanaticism leads to trying to control even the most natural of human impulses.(severing the demons, or 'soul', so that the dust, or 'original sin' won't affect the children)

Other Comments by Ashley1319

28. Comment #83395 by hightrekker on October 29, 2007 at 10:55 pm

Might be time to jettison the Cabbages For Christ as a market segment. When you let ignorance control content, ignorance is perpetuated and continued.

Other Comments by hightrekker

29. Comment #83401 by 35bluejacket on October 29, 2007 at 11:43 pm

One interpretation of the garden of eden is that we have recieved the possibility of spiritual death (not physical death), by the eating of the fruit ie, the knowledge of good and evil. By rational thought it is not possible to know or judge if something is good, unless we have a comparison, like a relative evil and viceversa.

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30. Comment #83405 by 35bluejacket on October 30, 2007 at 12:01 am

In sum. Our gift from the garden of eden was the heavy responsibility of free will and rational thought.

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31. Comment #83408 by mattcable on October 30, 2007 at 12:34 am

"Perhaps the church's opposition to this could be a good thing. If the film is atheistic (and I can't comment, having not [yet] read the books) does that mean that if it is a runaway success ala Harry Potter, then atheists can claim those numbers as evidence of growing mainstream support?"

This would be a reach.

Other Comments by mattcable

32. Comment #83415 by Philip1978 on October 30, 2007 at 1:36 am

 avatarPredictably, the film, opening Dec. 7, already has raised the ire of one outspoken conservative, Catholic League President William Donahue. Earlier this month, he called on Christians to boycott the movie because it will "seduce" parents into buying Pullman's "pro-atheist" book.

I love it when people like Bill get in such a hissy fit over stuff like this, there he is practically having a heart attack over a book, is he really that scared of Philip Pullman? This sort of behaviour is so counter productive, if someone froths and spits about something like this the controversy is bound to cause interest in what is happening. Talk about having your own publicity campaign without having to spend any money!!

Thinking about it, what is Bill saying here, is this book really that persuasive that the entire Catholic church is going to crumble over a film about an atheist book? I secretly would love it if that actually happened but I can't see a mass de-conversion coming any time soon!

Will go see the film though, I might be able to finish the first book before I do, I have just over a month! :)

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

33. Comment #83417 by Quetzalcoatl on October 30, 2007 at 1:48 am

 avatar
James Dobson's evangelical Christian behemoth Focus on the Family, the moral activists who review films and books for an audience of 5 million -- though even that group's protests of Fox Searchlight's 2004 film on pioneering sex researcher "Kinsey" and the TV cartoon "SpongeBob Squarepants" didn't significantly affect viewership of either


So, there's an evangelical Christian group, getting all uptight and agitated about the adventures of a talking yellow sponge that lives under the sea. You've got to laugh. Don't they have anything better to do with their time?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

34. Comment #83419 by Logicel on October 30, 2007 at 2:05 am

 avatarThus far, Donahue's blanket mailing to media and other religious groups of his exhaustive 30-page brochure titled "The Golden Compass: Agenda Unmasked" seems to have done little more than help promote the film.
______

Oh, you silly Billy goat, thought you religites realized from Da Vinci Code that your best approach is to channel such publicity into an opportunity to indoctrinate further rather than promoting the opposition's viewpoint? Off to the confessional for your sin!!!

Have I said lately that Catholicism sux? No? It sux.

Trying to pinpoint the unpalatable essence of this particular brand of religious lunacy (in which I had the misfortune of being raised therefore being nauseatingly familiar with its revolting nuances), I have come up with the following: Catholicism could teach schizophrenics a thing or two by focusing on how one can make unreality appear realer than real. And of course, they also could show narcissists how to do narcissism with such panache that one can be so happily deluded to actually regard themselves as being the opposite, i.e., as selfless creatures pining for something bigger than their tiny selves.

Perhaps, Billy goat does not like that others can do the Catholic thing even better?

Here's a tidbit from my upbringing: a particularly bonkers nun during a several hours long religious instruction class to 10 year olds, drew a soul with original sin on the blackboard (it was a roundish blob with a chalk smear representing the sin). She then encouraged us to decide what form the mark should take: a cross, a circle, a triangle, etc. An hour then followed where the overcrowded baby boomer class, one after the other offered their choices, while I sat there thinking to myself, hell, wtf, what is this nut going about, I never have seen a soul, so forget about imagining what friggin' marks would be on it? After wringing the creativity dry from her young class, she then proceeded with a malicious flourish, to eliminate the class' creative output via a vigorous wiping clean of the blackboard. She then gloated at our shock, stating the soul is invisible as is the mark of original sin, so don't look for it as it can't be seen. However, God can see it and know the real truth of your blemished state. So this unreality was transferred onto a presence bigger than anyone, therefore giving reality to the fantasy. What manipulating, pathetic a*holes.

coretemprising, yes, hundreds of millions of dollars, does seemed a bit over the top, though the film industry does generate jobs, etc., and at least the film can be seen again and again. Films can be part of evolving morality. But, in our household, we would have like such a pile of money to be channeled into something equally as fantastic, that is to explore outer space.

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35. Comment #83423 by Apemanblues on October 30, 2007 at 2:26 am

 avatarIt's funny how the real Magisterium are reacting not unlike the fictional Magisterium,

It will only serve to confirm the films message when the children leave the movie theatres wide eyed, only to come face to face with a real life mob of villains vociferously protesting against intellectual freedom.

Plus, the fighting polar bears will be really cool.

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36. Comment #83425 by steve99 on October 30, 2007 at 2:34 am

 avatar
Plus, the fighting polar bears will be really cool.


Well, I should hope so, being polar.

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37. Comment #83427 by NJS on October 30, 2007 at 2:42 am

I'm in two minds over this. I've read the trilogy and enjoyed it but everything I've read about the movies suggest a censorship of the bad guy.

However if the movies are still good, it will encourage people to read the books which is all good. This is what this Catholic idiot fears - exposure to "propaganda" - God forbid kids get another side to the debate.

I've said it before - the biggest two blows against religion in history have been the printing press and the extension of education in the form of reading to the masses - they must all miss being the sole source of "knowledge".

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38. Comment #83428 by Nefrubyr on October 30, 2007 at 2:42 am

 avatarFrom the Snopes link:

Bill Donohue, president of The Catholic League, has condemned The Golden Compass as a "pernicious" effort to indoctrinate children into anti-Christian beliefs....


Bill: it's fiction. Nobody's being indoctrinated. It might cause people to think (and reading the comments here, it has done so), but no one is presenting it as factual, unlike some works of fantasy I could mention.

It's often struck me how some people not only resist criticism of their beliefs in the real world, but can't accept that fictional settings need not match their worldview. I have to wonder whether some of these people have a concept of fiction at all.

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39. Comment #83434 by epeeist on October 30, 2007 at 3:07 am

 avatarComment #83428 by NefrubyrFrom the Snopes link:

Bill Donohue, president of The Catholic League, has condemned The Golden Compass as a "pernicious" effort to indoctrinate children into anti-Christian beliefs....

Bill: it's fiction.

Of course it is, err sorry what we were talking about, the film of Pullman's book or Catholicism?

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40. Comment #83441 by Matt H. on October 30, 2007 at 3:49 am

 avatar"Bill Donohue, president of The Catholic League, has condemned The Golden Compass as a "pernicious" effort to indoctrinate children into anti-Christian beliefs...."

Ooh you can just taste the hypocrisy. Millions of children each year are indoctrinated into the Catholic church by evil old men like Donahue and he has the nerve to complain about an anti-religious film?

If he wants to be free to express religious belief then he should let others have the freedom to express non-religious belief. In the United States the Constitution demands it.

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41. Comment #83461 by coretemprising on October 30, 2007 at 5:04 am

.
.
.
. . . . $180,000,000.

i.e.

One Hundred Eighty Million Dollars.

Somebody tell me there's a justification for this in today's world.

I just read that production costs for Lord of the Rings was $430 million. That wasn't worth it either.



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42. Comment #83467 by coretemprising on October 30, 2007 at 5:17 am

Hey Logicel, sure, but do you think we might get a handle on things down here first? Oh, I don't know, like war, religion, world hunger, global warming and pollution maybe?

It's been said before but I'll say it again, our priorities as a species would really baffle aliens, don't you think? (Well, if the aliens were smarter than us, that is.... which, come to think of it, wouldn't take much.)



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43. Comment #83468 by Futtilitardus on October 30, 2007 at 5:22 am

coretemprising,

One could say that for anything that has a price attached to itself. You have to keep in mind that 1) it's studio's money so it's their business what they do with the money, and 2) plenty of people work on complex movies such as LOTR or Golden Compass, they do a splendid job on it and deserve their paychecks.

Plus, art needs no justification ;)

Although, I do agree that it would be better to spend more money on space exploration which, at least for me, is as fascinating as any work of art.

BTW forgot to greet you all :D This is my first post after months of lurking ;) You're all such a great bunch so I decided to jump in and contribute to some discussions. Oh, and excuse me for my "bad" English, it's not my first language.

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44. Comment #83470 by NJS on October 30, 2007 at 5:30 am

Not sure about LOTR but Titanic made more than $1bn.

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45. Comment #83472 by Logicel on October 30, 2007 at 5:39 am

 avatarWelcome, Futtilitardus!

I hear you, coretemprising. I used to think that it was silly to spend all that dough on space exploration with all the problems we have on earth, until that dastardly cool-headed husband of mine managed to convince me otherwise. Many wonderful technological advances that we do use and have used to make life better on earth came from the scientific advancements that space exploration triggered. Also, all the money in the world, even if we had our friggin' priorities in place, would not solve them. As Hitch is fond of saying, our adrenals are too big, our frontal lobes too small (think of the failed attempts to get adequate, donated food to starving people because of the damn guerrillas that sabotage the transportation).

The scientific knowledge and technology resulting from space exploration could help us in understanding and working with our human limitations.

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46. Comment #83474 by coretemprising on October 30, 2007 at 5:52 am

Ok, but how about we just take the money and specifically use it towards problem solving, rather than the same being solved obliquely, rather like some reverse collateral damage?

And, yes, I get it about what idiots so many are, and how difficult it is, but that shouldn't argue against trying, should it?

Hey new guy, forgive me, but I'm gonna give us a new name: Homo Futtilitardus. LOL!



Other Comments by coretemprising

47. Comment #83476 by Logicel on October 30, 2007 at 6:07 am

 avatarcoretemprising wrote: Ok, but how about we just take the money and specifically use it towards problem solving,...
________

you mean like all the conservative think tanks do? LOL.

Other Comments by Logicel

48. Comment #83477 by Futtilitardus on October 30, 2007 at 6:15 am

Thanks, Logicel!

Coretemprising, no apology necesarry ;) You've put "futtilitardus" to a good use. I've actually coined the term very long ago in highschool and used it as a substitute for "god", you obviously know why :D Sadly, my religiot friends never got the implications - in case you are wondering, religiot is a term for someone suffering from religiosis... now that did offend people ;)

Back on topic, I've read "His Dark Materials" many years ago and enjoyed it immensely! Can't wait for the movie, I only hope they don't mess it up.

Other Comments by Futtilitardus

49. Comment #83479 by keith on October 30, 2007 at 6:24 am

 avatarCrazymalc,
Err... Why problem did the have with my main main Spongebob Squarepants?

Do you wear boxing gloves while your typing?

Other Comments by keith

50. Comment #83481 by Crazymalc on October 30, 2007 at 6:42 am

 avatarKeith,

Do you wear boxing gloves while your typing?


Eek! That was pretty bad, wasn't it?

You'd think that if StrongBad could do it, then so could I...

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