Monday, November 5, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version

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Jesus Camp: A scary movie that should frighten us all

by Jim White, Telegraph

Thanks to Ian Griffiths for the link. I know we've posted about 'Jesus Camp' before, but this review is from today. Is there a new release of it in the UK?

Reposted from:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/05/do0504.xml

As the nights lengthen and the mist swirls, as the first frost crinkles and the bones begin to chill, we are entering the season of scary movies. The sides of buses right now are decorated with pictures of severed heads and disgorged entrails by way of promotion for the latest offering of slasher porn.

But never mind Saw, Hostel or Texas Teenaged Chainsaw Killer Prom Queens (I may have got that one wrong) — if you want to see a really terrifying film this autumn, one that will leave you gasping for air at its underlying horror, then catch a new documentary called Jesus Camp.

Like all scary movies, this starts innocently enough. We see half a dozen kids arrive at an evangelical Christian summer gathering somewhere in the American Midwest. A sweet-natured, polite, well-scrubbed bunch, they look eager and ready for a month of fun and games.

Instead, we watch in gathering alarm as they are subjected to weeks of systematic brainwashing, turning them away from harmless youthful activities like snogging each other behind the bike shed and transforming them into foot soldiers of fundamentalism.

That is the only word: what is being taught on this camp could not be more fundamentalist if it were taking place in Finsbury Park and featured a mad mullah with a hook instead of a right hand. And the fact is that this particular camp is by no means unusual; in certain parts of the US it is a mainstream activity to send your children off for the summer to be reprogrammed into religious warriors.

We really have no idea in this country what is happening in the heartland of our greatest ally.

No inkling of quite how much the world is, inexorably, being polarised between orthodoxies. Just because the word "Jesus" is in the title, don't for a moment be confused into thinking that what is being reported by this film is the kind of gentle, fuzzy, socks-and-sandals equivocation we are used to from the C of E.

There is no love here. No turning to your neighbour and exchanging a sign of peace. This is not Christianity as we know it. What we see in the movie is children in their hundreds being indoctrinated by nutcases, encouraged to hate and fear and ready themselves for ultimate war.

And if that is not worrying enough, wait till the sequence in which a slick, clever, politically ambitious preacher tells his 2,500-strong congregation of impressionable young people that they should have no use for democracy since all the law they need is in the Bible.

No point voting on gay rights when the Bible says it's bad; no point voting on abortion when the Bible says it is murder. The Bible, not democracy, has all the answers. This is sharia law by another name. And whatever your view on these issues, it is scary.

The preacher is interviewed after his sermon and cheerily boasts that at the next presidential election, his take on the world will be supported by sufficient numbers to swing the decision. He suggests, in other words, that there will be hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of Americans like him voting for the proposition that voting is ultimately pointless.

The absurdity of the concept that the Bible — rather than a common consensus reached by democratic accountability — should be our only legal guide is evident from the moment you try to apply it. Say, for instance, football were run by biblical edict. What happens if a volatile centre forward reacts to an aggressive tackle by chinning his opponent? What does the referee do?

In the technical areas, the two team managers concerned brandish their bibles, each certain what the next move should be.

In one a tall, cerebral French boss insists the offender should be sent off: he quotes from Luke 6:27-31 that, if assaulted, a player should turn the other cheek.

Alongside him his red-faced Glaswegian rival says this is nonsense. The player should be allowed to retaliate. After all, as it says in Exodus 21:23-27, an eye for an eye.

The man in charge is obliged to refer the issue to the official in the stand, the so-called liturgical ref who, after several months of doctrinal study, comes to the conclusion that it doesn't much matter as a predilection for fast cars, fast money and dodgy facial hair means the player in question will be red-carded to hellfire soon enough.

Frighteningly, no such absurdity seems to occur to those featured in this film.

Instead, they continue preaching an ever-more popular doctrine of hate, fear and war-mongering. In fact, after seeing it, after discovering what's happening in America's Jesus camps, you head off home thinking that maybe now might not be a bad time to start stockpiling that tinned food.

Posted: Monday, November 5, 2007 | Permalink

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1. Comment #85301 by Klaatu barada nikto on November 5, 2007 at 1:03 pm

Now, just issue them assault rifles and the transformation will be complete.

Other Comments by Klaatu barada nikto

2. Comment #85304 by LawJik on November 5, 2007 at 1:11 pm

For those who haven't seen it...

Jesus Camp:
http://www.guba.com/watch/3000040658

Other Comments by LawJik

3. Comment #85306 by Goldy on November 5, 2007 at 1:12 pm

Liked this post...

No actual reporting on the film, just a brief account of an interview followed by a pointless metaphor. Bunch of lefties film something they don't understand; have it reviewed by someone who doesn't understand; salt it with knee-jerk anti-Americanism; equate Christian fundamentalism with Islamic Fundamentalism and scare themselves witless.

Newsflash! Atheist Fundamentalism has killed more people in one century than all the years of religion put together. Second Newsflash! Fundamentally, Christianity is about Jesus Christ. Sacrificial love for one's enemies etc. Fundamentally, Islam is about Mohammed. The historical record of the man speaks for itself.

Posted by Corin Keiler-Lloyd on November 5, 2007 12:44 AM

Other Comments by Goldy

4. Comment #85309 by Bonzai on November 5, 2007 at 1:15 pm

The Jesus camp was closed down due to the negative publicity they get from this film.

Other Comments by Bonzai

5. Comment #85311 by Goldy on November 5, 2007 at 1:17 pm

And this one :-D

"Those who disagree so vehemently with this article might like to go off and read Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion.

But they won't: why let logic get in the way of religious fudamentalasim?
Posted by JohnD on November 5, 2007 8:53 AM"

I have read "The God Delusion" and have read some of the books critical to it. It is surprisingly easy to knock. As a brief overview of the opposing argument, I would recommend "The Dawkins Letters" by David Robertson. You have to approach these issues with an open mind, which can be difficult if you have had an uniformitarian world-view standard British education.

Applying logic to Christianity requires you to understand the basics. Throughout the Bible runs the golden rule "love your neighbour as yourself". To quote anything that apparently contradicts that is to take a text out of context: a fault of as many theologians as atheists.

To keep an open mind, it is always important to understand the context of what is being said. Dawkin's call to atheists is one such book, this documentary another. To be truly free, one must be prepared to question everything, test everything, whether it is old earth theories, young earth theories, religious dogma of whatever flavour, mainstream faiths, cults, atheism, nihilism, etc. to see how they stack up. I studied the theory of evolution years ago and happily accepted the logical conclusions of molecules-to-man evolution; what is euphemistically called "social Darwinism", or more accurately eugenics, the elephant in the room�

If "fundamentalism" is the strict adherence to the fundamentals of a religion, then fundamentalist Christians would be those who always show love for their fellow men, no matter what their "sins". They will be the people you find selflessly giving of their time and talents for the betterment of their fellow humans. The Quakers, who strived to abolish slavery 200 years ago, were the fundamentalists of their day. If that is true Christian fundamentalism, bring it on.

The real question to the challenger is, "are you prepared to test your faith by exploring what Christianity is by, say, attending an Alpha course?"

Posted by Peddyr on November 5, 2007 11:41 AM

I highlighted a wee snippet ;-)

Other Comments by Goldy

6. Comment #85312 by steveroot on November 5, 2007 at 1:17 pm

1. Comment #85301 by Klaatu barada nikto on November 5, 2007 at 1:03 pm

Now, just issue them assault rifles and the transformation will be complete.

Your wish is granted! :-)

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0703/biblecamp.html
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

7. Comment #85318 by konquererz on November 5, 2007 at 1:30 pm

I went to a camp just like this when I was growing up. I was that kid crying because he had "disbelief in his heart". Its not like this is an odd occurrence, the "far right wing of Christianity". This is evangelical Christianity. "Jesus Camp" may itself be closed down, but there are much much bigger camps that are exactly the same thing!

This is exactly what goes on at ALL Assemblys of God kids camps and Assemblys of God youth camps. I grew up in these camps, never missing a year. Speaking in tongues, prophecy, hell fire and damnation sermons, check. I was there, these still go on, and it breaks my heart.

I once spent five hours at the alter trying to over come my doubt, in tears with adults praying over me and "casting out doubt" until I broke. I spoke in tongues for the last thirty minutes, and felt relieved after words. Things eventually get back to normal, but not until I made sure to go completely Jesus freak on people at school. Camps were always in the summer time, which lengthens the amount of time between normalization, so you can be "on fire for god" longer. Keeping you away from outside exposure makes it easier to keep that zeal.

One Jesus Camp down, dozens to go.

Other Comments by konquererz

8. Comment #85319 by padster1976 on November 5, 2007 at 1:30 pm

I imagine this one in a red neck style- like the hillbillies in the simpsons...

AS NUTTY AS THE FUNDIES OF CHRIST ARE
WE WILL NEED THEM TO FIGHT EVEN A NUTTIER BELIEVE ISLAM. MABYE THE MAY TURN ON EACH OTHER. BUT IF THEY RUN TO FORM BOTH WILL TURN ON THE JEWS AS USUAL AS HISTORY SHOWS.
Posted by max bernstein on November 5, 2007 7:57 PM

Other Comments by padster1976

9. Comment #85320 by padster1976 on November 5, 2007 at 1:36 pm

I always laugh when I see people trying to rationalise their insanity by saying 'at least its not islam/christianity/ judiasm (delete as applicable).

When you see people proudly state that they belive something that cannot be proven, there is that look in their eye. Scary. You cannot have a decent conversation with them. Then they condescend you. Classic.

I had a woman at the door who had a 12 yr old (or thereabouts) last week who asked me if I thought that god was responsible for natural disasters. It was the childs presence that held my tongue.

Other Comments by padster1976

10. Comment #85324 by Klaatu barada nikto on November 5, 2007 at 1:39 pm

steveroot

Thanks for the link. Landoverbaptist is always funny, but 18 grand for registration. Jesus Chr.. :)

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11. Comment #85333 by steveroot on November 5, 2007 at 1:52 pm

10. Comment #85324 by Klaatu barada nikto on November 5, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Landoverbaptist is always funny, but 18 grand for registration. Jesus Chr.. :)

What's a tithe when it comes to keeping Pastor Deacon Fred happy? :->
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

12. Comment #85362 by toddaa on November 5, 2007 at 2:59 pm

As scary as the film is, I think it should be noted that quite a few of those kids are going to end up being fire breathing atheists of the Madalyn Murray O'Hair variety.

Other Comments by toddaa

13. Comment #85363 by Gymnopedie on November 5, 2007 at 3:00 pm

Football would never be played by true Christians, because Christians aren't allowed to touch any pig product (think "pig skin"). Look it up in the good ol' book of Deuteronomy.

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14. Comment #85364 by bluebird on November 5, 2007 at 3:01 pm

Thankfully there are camps for free-thinking kiddos:

http://www.camp-quest.com

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Quest

Other Comments by bluebird

15. Comment #85368 by ? on November 5, 2007 at 3:18 pm

My favorite part of that film was when the head nut-jobs did an extended prayer ritual to protect the electrical and sound systems from being attacked by demons! (since we all know that demons are what cause routine technical difficulties) :) Funny that no corporations or governments have exorcists on their technical support staff! And these people think they could run a modern nation even if they won.

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16. Comment #85377 by Theocrapcy on November 5, 2007 at 3:52 pm

JESUS CAMP

So, finally he comes out the closet. I knew it, he always had such clean feet.

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17. Comment #85378 by Diacanu on November 5, 2007 at 3:59 pm

And these people think they could run a modern nation even if they won.

No problem. When a theocracy inevitably runs itself into a medieval shithole, it blames all its troubles on its next door neighbors, and steals all its stuff.

Other Comments by Diacanu

18. Comment #85386 by Shadow Boxer on November 5, 2007 at 4:58 pm

For the scariest moment, I'm torn between the pastor woman, when they're blessing the seats in the chapel, praying that everyone be covered in the blood of Jesus, and the little girl saying that martyrdom sounds cool.
Couldn't help but laugh at Ted Haggard preaching against homosexuality though... :)

Is there a new release of it in the UK?

I don't know about the UK, but it's about to be released on DVD in Australia (7th Nov).

Other Comments by Shadow Boxer

19. Comment #85473 by Philip1978 on November 6, 2007 at 1:35 am

steveroot
That Landover Baptist Church thing...

Please tell me that is not real, that has to be joke surely...???

I haven't seen a smiley face...it can't be Poe's law!!
:)
Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

20. Comment #85476 by The Truth, the light on November 6, 2007 at 1:38 am

Jesus Camp is a very, very scary and extremely sad view of the indoctrination and brain washing of vulnerable children.

Richard Dawkins may go on about labelling children with the religion of their parents as child abuse, but compared to the child abuse in Jesus Camp, it doesn't even make a blip.

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21. Comment #85591 by pwl on November 6, 2007 at 10:23 am

Thanks for the link LawJik. That is a very scary movie!

Other Comments by pwl

22. Comment #85593 by tieInterceptor on November 6, 2007 at 10:28 am

what I found disturbing is the amount of comments on the original article that defend the jesus camp, and accuse the article of narrow mindness..

?? seriously

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

23. Comment #85595 by Bonzai on November 6, 2007 at 10:44 am

Philip,

Please tell me that is not real, that has to be joke surely...???

Yes, that is a joke. "Pastor Deacon Fred" was expelled from Jerry Falwell's Liberty U many years ago. Look it up in the Wikipedia.

Other Comments by Bonzai

24. Comment #85601 by steveroot on November 6, 2007 at 11:11 am

19. Comment #85473 by Philip1978 on November 6, 2007 at 1:35 am
steveroot
That Landover Baptist Church thing...
Please tell me that is not real, that has to be joke surely...???
I haven't seen a smiley face...it can't be Poe's law!!

I didn't think a smiley was necessary. Oops... we're talking about *religion* here. My bad!

Just for grins, look up the "letters" section on LBC... some people really *do* need the smileys, and I know you're not one of them! :-)
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

25. Comment #85605 by black wolf on November 6, 2007 at 11:41 am

No problem. When a theocracy inevitably runs itself into a medieval shithole, it blames all its troubles on its next door neighbors, and steals all its stuff.

And in the Age of Communication, 'neighbor' means the rest of the world. Is stealing from loved ones a sin, or a double-sin? Or is the property and intellectual achievement of loved ones the same as ones own? Didn't Jesus say something about 'having no property, thereby allowing intellectual thievery? Does that mean 'Thou shalt not steal' is self-refuting? My head hurts.

Other Comments by black wolf

26. Comment #85607 by STLstrike3 on November 6, 2007 at 11:49 am

I'm not sure if anger, fear, or despair is the emotion that wins out when I see crap like this.

Wrenching free of the malicious programming of the Catholic Church was one of the most grueling experiences of my life, as I'm sure it was for many others like me. It's hard enough for me to help others through that journey who had fairly mild indoctrination like myself.

But this vicious cult behavior is going to create a small army of virtually-impossible-to-repair faithheads that will make Abortion Physician Assassinators look like tolerant moderates.

Other Comments by STLstrike3

27. Comment #85614 by scottishgeologist on November 6, 2007 at 12:22 pm

Philip

Relax! Dont do it! Landover is a spoof site. Honest! Mind you, it is so brilliantly done (Chris Harper has to be one of the funniest guys around) that you really have to blink twice. Whenever I go to it , I ALWAYS come away grinning. It is the ultimate tonic and shows how humo(u)r is one of the most powerful of rationalist weapons. Oh yes and ridicule.

Be sure to check out the "Baptist sexuality" section and for a real hoot, try the "Hackers for Jesus" link:

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0201/hackers.html

It is quite simply pant-wettingly funny....

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

28. Comment #85621 by steveroot on November 6, 2007 at 2:04 pm

27. Comment #85614 by scottishgeologist on November 6, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Be sure to check out the "Baptist sexuality" section and for a real hoot, try the "Hackers for Jesus" link:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0201/hackers.html
It is quite simply pant-wettingly funny....

Praise!
Time to change 'em ;-)
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

29. Comment #85840 by rustylix on November 7, 2007 at 9:59 am

The ~~Jesus~~ Campers family has their own blog, where they claim to have witnessed resurrections as well people being cured of AIDS. Oddly, when asked, they've never witnessed the following categories of people being healed.

Amputees

Prosthetic Eyes

Down Syndrome

Cleft Palettes

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30. Comment #86006 by Rosemary on November 7, 2007 at 7:56 pm

Although Becky Fischer's organization had to stop running the camp at that particular site due to vandalism, her ministry is still active. See http://www.kidsinministry.org/closingdowncamp.php.

Alas.

Other Comments by Rosemary

31. Comment #86133 by ignored_ethos2 on November 8, 2007 at 8:09 am

konquererz - What exactly where you doing when you were speaking in tongues? Is it just self-delusion or some sort of hypnotic trance?

My mother does this and I always wondered if she knows she is faking it or if even she believes it herself.

I never spoke in tongues as I had pretty much broken the spell by the time I was old enough to have been expected to do so. In fact, the existence of this "phenomena" (for lack of a better word) helped me break the spell for good.

I remember listening very closely and not being able find a pattern. There are no actual words that can be consistently translated though many similar sylables are often repeated.

I would sometimes write down or try to remember the preacher's claimed inspired translation to compare to future translations. It didn't always happen but I remember the preacher trying to make it very dramatic.

I was repeatedly told not to question it, something that has never gone over well with me.

I also remember thinking how extremely bizarre it was that all these adults were pretending to speak another language, everyone knew it was pretend, and no one would admit it.

I asked my mother if they have ever had a linguist come in and try to capture this new, unknown language and she accused me (for the first time) of blasphemy.

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32. Comment #86141 by phasmagigas on November 8, 2007 at 8:47 am

I also remember thinking how extremely bizarre it was that all these adults were pretending to speak another language, everyone knew it was pretend, and no one would admit it.

inadequate, unfulfilled, infantile, insecure individuals who will practice group delusion in order for them to feel included in the playground games. whatever the make up of their mind I can happily say I do not understand the mentality nor do i possess it, very strange behaviour indeed.

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33. Comment #86150 by Bonzai on November 8, 2007 at 12:13 pm

rustylix,

Thanks for the link to the Jesus Camp-ers.

Very interesting to read how they see things from the other side of the fence. I must say I am surprised that many of them actually love the film instead of considering it an anti-Christian smear. Rather than going to full damage control mode, the film is apparently shown in many other "Jesus camps" as an inspirational tool. There are some complaints that the film maker made them look more sinister through editing, but overall the responses seem quite positive.

While we are appalled and horrified, they find the "Holy Spirit" in the same footages, weird.

Other Comments by Bonzai

34. Comment #107651 by J.Robert on January 4, 2008 at 11:02 pm

I'm sure many of us have already seen 'Jesus Camp', but here is a newer link nonetheless:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5249911130864255023&q=Jesus+Camp+duration%3Along&total=35&start=0&num=30&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

This movie is so sad.

Other Comments by J.Robert

35. Comment #115895 by MPhil on January 25, 2008 at 2:13 am

As I opened the newspaper just a few minutes ago, I was surprised to see a half-page article on "Jesus Camp", and that the local cinema had a showing of the movie and a discussion afterwards just recently... - which is kind of surprising, given that I live in a town of 80.000 people in Germany.

As some of you might know, such fundamentalist, radical religiosity is very much a fringe-phenomenon here. But evidently, the fact that it exists at all and seems to be gaining followers here, worries the local ecclesiastics. A good thing, I should think.

Still, what worried me was that evidently, the discussion focused on one point: What are the big churches (catholic and protestant - the latter being much more liberal in Germany in general) to do to prevent people from becoming radicalized?
I was, to put it mildly, surprised.

No one raised the issue that this is a general problem of believing that one book which does contain commands to think and behave that way is "holy" - the problem of believing in a bronze-age myth. It was evidently all about how the churches with the "true", meek-and-mild religion are to prevent such thinking and behavior in their flock.

To top it all, the title of the article was
"The dark side of religious madness" WTF???

I guess I'll have to send a small letter to the editor.

It's just sad.

Other Comments by MPhil

36. Comment #115929 by MPhil on January 25, 2008 at 4:16 am

So, this is the draft of the letter to the editor, which I hope they'll publish. But the problem is: It's too long. And I wanna get the point across, and not have the religious people shutting it out... so it mustn't be too insulting.

Any help is very much appreciated.

"In the issue from Friday the 25th, there appeared an article on the showing of the documentary "Jesus Camp" with subsequent discussion at the local cinema. The title of this article has to have been a faux-pas by the person responsible: "The dark side of religious madness" - is there a bright side to religious madness, too?

Luckily, the mindset depicted in this rightly alarming movie is still a fringe-phenomenon here in Germany, and coming out against such madness, as some German ecclesiastics do is surely a good thing.
How sad that - as far as I can tell from the article - the real problem was not addressed in the discussion:

Holding-true a bronze-age myth without any evidence; orienting one's life and morality after a book that values obedience and belief more than reason and empathy, a book whose protagonists - as becomes evident when reading it unbiased and non-selective - also (and largely) demonstrate and preach more contempt for mankind and cruelty than altruism and kindheartedness. This is even true of Jesus, the preacher of love of one's enemy and neighbor. Those who aren't for him, are against him (Luke 11, 23). Also, he preached eternal damnation, gnashing of teeth and torture in hell for those who do not follow god's law or who seduce others to evil (Luke 10, 11; Mathew 25, 41; 18, 6; 13, 41-42; 11, 22-24). Add to that the misogyny of Paul and the praising of cruelties, murders and genocides in the old testament. Faith itself - and the conviction that this faith is a good thing - this is the problem, particulary in the 21. Century

Certainly, by far most of the the Christians in this country are good and decent people. But let's be honest - one does not gain morality from ficticious figures in a book, especially a book that does provide justification for unspeakable atrocities. One gains morality by emotional and intellectual understanding of the needs of our fellow human beings.

Clinging to an old myth is certainly neither necessary nor particulary helpful for this - and this is a point that should have been central to the debate: The bible legitimizes such fundamentalism more than the watered-down European version of Christianity. The problem is not the "how" of believing, but the "that"."

Other Comments by MPhil

37. Comment #115941 by PJG on January 25, 2008 at 4:57 am

MPhil,

I haven't time to go through it all now (and maybe my input wouldn't be very valuable as I tend to be verbose!!!)

However, one thing caught my eye...

also (and largely) demonstrate and preach more contempt for mankind and cruelty than altruism and kindheartedness."

I know this may seem pedantic, but it reads as if it preaches contempt for cruelty (as well as for mankind) and I am sure that isn't want you mean.

Maybe "also (and largely) demonstrate and preach more cruelty, and contempt for mankind, than altruism and kindheartedness.

Just a thought - hope you don't mind my suggesting the change.

Also, I think Matthew is spelt wrong - doesn't matter to me but you don't want to give Christians cause to criticise!

Other Comments by PJG

38. Comment #116002 by MPhil on January 25, 2008 at 8:46 am

Thanks - I have corrected these mistakes.

Any more input, especially on how to condense it without losing the message or opening the flood-gates for unfounded criticism would still be very much appreciated.

-Mike

Other Comments by MPhil

39. Comment #116009 by Tyler Durden on January 25, 2008 at 9:08 am

Hi MPhil,

I've had a read and added some corrections, feel free to pick 'n' choose what you require.

TD

Dear Editor,

With regard to the "The dark side of religious madness" article (25th Jan 2008) on the showing of the "Jesus Camp" documentary with subsequent discussion at the local cinema. Is the title of this article a faux-pas by the writer responsible? "The dark side of religious madness" - is there a bright side to religious madness?

Luckily, the mindset depicted in this rightly alarming movie is still a fringe-phenomenon here in Germany, and coming out against such madness, as some German ecclesiastics do, is surely a good thing. How sad that, as far as I can tell from the article, the real problem was not addressed in the discussion:

Holding-true to bronze-age myths without any evidence, orienting one's life and morality after a book that values obedience and belief more than reason and empathy, a book whose protagonists, as becomes evident when reading without bias, also (and largely) demonstrated and preached more contempt for mankind and cruelty than altruism and kindheartedness.

This is even true of Jesus, the preacher of love of one's enemy and neighbor. Those who aren't for him, are against him (Luke 11, 23). Also, he preached eternal damnation, and torture in hell for those who do not follow God's law or who seduce others to evil (Luke 10, 11; Matthew 25, 41; 18, 6; 13:41-42; 11:22-24). Add to that the misogyny of Paul and the praising of cruelties, murders and genocides in the old testament. Faith itself, and the conviction that this faith is a good thing, is the problem, particulary in the 21st Century.

Certainly, the majority of Christians in this country are good and decent people. But let's be honest, one does not gain morality from ficticious figures in a book, especially a book that provides justification for unspeakable atrocities. One gains morality by emotional and intellectual understanding of the needs of our fellow human beings.

Clinging to antiquated myths is certainly neither necessary nor particulary helpful for this - and this is a point that should have been central to the debate: The bible legitimizes such fundamentalism more than the watered-down European version of Christianity. The problem is not the "how" of believing, but the "that" of believing.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

40. Comment #116019 by MPhil on January 25, 2008 at 9:56 am

Thanks, Tyler. I will incorporate your improvements.

I am certain that this letter - if it should be printed, will elicit a few angered responses... possibly even by the local priests. I am certain that they will point out that I am misrepresenting Jesus and the Bible as a whole. But I guess if I wanted to guard myself against such criticisms, the length would swell to about the size of TGD. That's why I need to get as much in there as possible, and if possible condense it a little.

I'll post subsequent rewrites... until then, well - you know the deal :)

Other Comments by MPhil

41. Comment #116353 by MPhil on January 26, 2008 at 9:53 am

So, I sent this letter (or rather, the German original) to the editor of my local newspapaper... let's see if they will publish it, or at least contact me about it.
If it gets published, I'm sure some unfriendly replies will be printed as well. Probably, either from a local follower of the churches, the local superintendent of the protestant church (and father of an atheist with whom I went to school) or dean of the local catholic church.

This is the letter I sent:

"In the issue of January the 25th, there was an article concerning a showing with subsequent discussion of the documentary "Jesus Camp" at the local cinema. Was the title of that article a faux-pas of the person responsible? I certainly hope so: "The dark side of religious madness" - is there a bright side to religious weapons?

Luckily, the mindset depicted in this rightly alarming movie is still a fringe-phenomenon here in Germany, and coming out against such madness, as some German ecclesiastics do, is definitely a good thing.
How sad that, as far as I one can tell from the article, the real problem was not addressed in the discussion:

To accept as true a bronze-age myth which explains nothing and for the truth of which there is no more evidence than for the truth of any other myth; orienting one's life and morality after a book whose protagonists, as becomes evident when reading without bias, also (and largely) demonstrated and preached more cruelty and contempt for mankind than altruism and kindheartedness. And not only in the still valid OT. Even Jesus is not exempt (vid. e.g. Lk 11, 23; 10, 11; Mt 25, 41; 18, 6; 13, 41-42; 11, 22-24). Add to this the unspeakable cruelties of the OT and the misogyny of the entire bible, the effects of which can still be felt today. The pleasant fact that European Christianity today largely adapted to the moral zeitgeist and barely takes these terrible things in the bible seriously anymore does however not mean that one has gotten closer to a "true" interpretation of the scriptures. On the contrary, interpreting-away or marginalizing all these atrocities is a magnificent feat of repression and selective interpretation - although in all likelihood I will be accused of just this in return. The missionary fundamentalism, as displayed in "Jesus Camp" and as was rampant even worse in the history of Europe is more legitimized by the bible than the philanthropic and watered-down version of nowadays Christianity in Europe.

Without question, the absolute majority of Christians living in this country today are good and decent people. But let's be honest - one does not gain morality from ficticious figures in a book, especially a book that provides justification for unspeakable atrocities. One gains morality through emotional and intellectual understanding of the needs of one's fellow human beings and living creatures. One thing is required above all for this - enlightenment, "man's emergence from his self-imposed immaturity"(Kant).

Clinging to an antiquated myth is certainly neither necessary nor particularly helpful - and this is a point that should have been addressed in the discussion. The underlying problem is not the "how", but the "that" of belief without sufficient evidence. For where this is the case, anything becomes justifiable."

Thanks for the help guys. Let's see what the reaction will be.

Wish me "godspeed"!

-Mike

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42. Comment #116366 by MPhil on January 26, 2008 at 10:16 am

Oops... did I write "Is there a bright side to religious weapons"? In the original it says, of course "religious madness". Freudian slip of the keyboard?

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43. Comment #174502 by Corylus on May 2, 2008 at 2:08 pm

For people with access to UK TV, an edited version of this will be shown on Channel 4 at 11pm on Tuesday 6th May.

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44. Comment #363650 by stumarks on April 13, 2009 at 12:15 pm

Many of the statements and comments in this article that seem intent on defining Christian Fundamentalism don't even resemble a far shadow of the subject matter.

I am a Christian Fundamentalist. This means that we adhere to the good old fashioned, well defined directions and doctrines found in the original Bible which can be found in the KJV 1611.

I am also the advertising designer and camp archive photographer for the Midwest Christian Boys' Football Camp which is in its 15th year.

The camp has been deemed the largest of its kind by Riddell, the leading sports equipment manufacturer in the US and one of the camp's sponsors.

This camp also happens to be located south of Chicago and so is easily and unarguably defined as being in the Midwest, as this strange article targets.

All though this article and movie can not be specifically about our camp per se, most of the terms used in the article are terms by which we are identified by ourselves and the world at large, with one giant departure; the definitions and rhetoric surrounding the terms are categorically incorrect.

We meet annually to give Christian boys a chance to be taught and play actual gear and contact football, complete with state sanctioned officials and real plastic drinking bottles. During the week, there are several sessions of old fashioned Bible preaching the likes of which that have been commonly found in conventional independent Baptist churches further back than anyone can remember.

The entire mission of Football Camp is to take boys who have already been reared in church going homes and give them a boat load of clean and clear Bible preaching while letting them knock the stew out of each other out on the field.

Getting knocked down and getting back up again to keep going for the team, pushing through Tired and Pain to go the extra yard, doing the hard thing over and over and over again; these are lessons that boys need to become men, and more than men: leaders.

That's Football Camp in a nutshell.

There is no preparing boys for battle like the article claims, unless it’s the self battle against carnal temptation and other sins, and the life battle against laziness and selfishness as the Bible teaches.

Boys that come out of this camp are uncommon, unselfish, hard working, deep loving, good old fashioned fun loving American young men like you want your daughter to marry. Remember the America that we used to be proud of? That kind of stuff.

There is no hate for the sinner taught at Football Camp as the article claims, though hating sin is a standard Bible doctrine. People who talk about the Bible without experiencing it usually fail to make the important and empirical distinction between sin and the sinner. Jesus didn't die and rise again for the sin. He did all that for the sinner.

Over and over again the article seems to hint at some sort of empirical wisdom about Christian Fundamentalism coming from individuals who have never even studied the Bible which might explain the confusing messages that the article claims and supports.

Hollywood has enjoyed decades of coining phrases and images about Christians that have never been accepted in pop culture until some one-in-a-billion-nut-case labeled a Christian by the media executes his own twisted version of justice in order to accommodate Hollywood's script of the hour.

It is my opinion that the above article is nothing more than another tired attempt to perpetuate the same war against true Christianity in the name of some sort of weird elitist ammoralism. I don't know what else to call it. It certainly is not journalism in any form.

Regarding reading the book suggested in this article, I don't have time to read every attack on my faith. I suggest that those who wish to attack the Bible do so after some actual Bible reading. I have written articles about the Islam faith and only did so after studying it at length.

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45. Comment #363652 by Diacanu on April 13, 2009 at 12:23 pm

stumarks-

I suggest that those who wish to attack the Bible do so after some actual Bible reading.

Have done.

Bad collection of poorly written fables written by a primitive superstitious people.

Heard pretty much all the apologetic arguments that say that it's not any of those things.

They don't wash.

Here's one example that apologetics has been utterly unable to wiggle out of to my satisfaction, let's see you take it on.

http://dickynoo.blogspot.com/2009/03/then-theres-that-whole-kooky-old.html

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