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Atheists' sign sparks controversy

News Channel 8

Thanks to Mad Scientist for the link.

http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=7470226&nav=menu29_2

ANYONE is welcome to use the 'Imagine No Religion' design, available in our left column under 'Imagine No Religion Flyers' or HERE

For more pictures of the sign and info about the group see:
http://cvatheists.org/

Click here to download a QuickTime version (3.7 MB, 1:33)

Atheists' sign sparks controversy

Vernon (WTNH) _ A sign posted by Atheists in the Rockville's Central Park has people talking, prompting calls to the town hall and the local clergy.

The Connecticut Valley Atheists posted the three-sided sign, which some call a billboard, and it was the only sign in the town center marking the Holiday season. Two sides of the display feature the Twin Towers, framed by the words "Imagine No Religion."

This Christmas, Martha Chennelle and Amy Houser say Vernon could use a few prayers, considering the sign standing in front of town hall.

"We believe that Christ is the reason for Christmas," said Chennelle.

"I feel like this is an attack on my beliefs as a religious person," said Houser.

The sign, put up by the Connecticut Valley Atheist Group, which was supposed to mark the winter solstice, but the "Imagine No Religion" part of it, taken from John Lennon's song, "Imagine," has a lot of people upset.

Houser says the sign mocks her religion during a holy time of the year. "Imagine no religion is an attack against me, as any person of faith should take it as an attack against them," Houser said.

The town issued permits to the Atheist group to put the sign in the park. They also issued permits to a group of churches that plans to put a nativity scene and to a local synagogue to put up a menorah.

Dennis Himes, a Vernon resident, and member of CT Valley Atheists, says he was tired of seeing Christian displays.

"There are plenty of places to put up nativity scenes in Vernon. The original question that started this controversy was not whether a nativity scene would be put up in Vernon," said Dennis Himes of Vernon. "The question was whether the nativity scene would be put in front of a church or in front of town hall, on government property.

Himes also says that the picture of the Twin Towers is meant to show that without religion, 9-11 wouldn't have happened. A suggestion that has upset Muslims, as well.

"This is an attack," said Houser.

Chennelle and Houser have been fighting back with prayer.

"We ultimately believe that Christians have been persecuted throughout history," said Houser, "so this is nothing new."

According to the Hartford Courant town officials issued the Atheists a permit to put up the sign to commemorate the Winter Solstice. Permits were also issued to local churches and a synagogue to put up their own displays.

Yesterday the town of Rockville put up a large Christmas Tree, just 10 feet from the display.

Posted: Monday, December 10, 2007 | Permalink

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1. Comment #96229 by robotaholic on December 10, 2007 at 7:51 am

Oh my GOODNESS this is awesome - that sign just makes me feel wonderful. (It's the background on my blackberry lol)

The response it is evoking from the town is predicitible: "I'm so attacked"- NO, an attack is with missiles, or calling your mom a name, this is free speech- the last thing America has going right now...

Other Comments by robotaholic

2. Comment #96231 by Mysturji on December 10, 2007 at 7:54 am

Awwww, diddums! Are the nasty atheists asking you to use your brain? Poor, thing. Yes, I know it hurts. Just close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears until it goes away again.

"The sign, put up by the Connecticut Valley Atheist Group, which was supposed to mark the winter solstice, but the "Imagine No Religion" part of it, taken from John Lennon's song, "Imagine," has a lot of people upset."

I'll bet. Almost as many people are upset by that sign as were upset by 9/11
Get over it

Other Comments by Mysturji

3. Comment #96232 by tangerine_tree on December 10, 2007 at 7:54 am

"Chennelle and Houser have been fighting back with prayer "

don't know why but that comment made me laugh.

Other Comments by tangerine_tree

4. Comment #96235 by sidfaiwu on December 10, 2007 at 7:59 am

"Imagine no religion is an attack against me, as any person of faith should take it as an attack against them," Houser said.

Here we have the typical equivocation of belief and believers that the religious try to use to insulate their faith from criticism. Houser is trying to perpetuate the fallacy that the belief and the believer are equivalent. This is a dangerous mistake.

Calling the critique an 'attack' gives implicit moral permission to retaliate. Worse yet, since Houser considers it an attack on her person, not her beliefs, she would believe herself to be justified in actually attacking a person in retaliation.

In other words, she's saying it's okay to harm a thinking, feeling being if that being 'harms' a non-thinking, non-feeling belief. One might as well equivocate the chopping down of a tree to chopping off of a human head. Such a belief system is morally reprehensible, and should be criticized.

Other Comments by sidfaiwu

5. Comment #96239 by cursor on December 10, 2007 at 8:06 am

It's like a bizarre game of poker.

"I see your Imagine No Religion poster and raise you a Christmas tree".

I wonder if they're just as offended by Lennon's song?

Other Comments by cursor

6. Comment #96243 by Peacebeuponme on December 10, 2007 at 8:17 am

What about all the christian signs proclaiming that we are lost unless we find jesus? Are they attacking me as an atheist?

Fucking double standards from these blockheads.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

7. Comment #96244 by jfincher42 on December 10, 2007 at 8:19 am

We ultimately believe that Christians have been persecuted throughout history.

Wasn't there a recent poll that showed something like 89% of Americans believe in the judeo-christian versions of god, angels, heaven, hell, the devil, etc.? So can someone explain to me (and to Ms. Houser and Chennelle) how a majority of the American population are being persecuted by the minority who aren't in political power?

Other Comments by jfincher42

8. Comment #96246 by Sharrow on December 10, 2007 at 8:22 am

The're under attack! THIS is an attack? They really need to get into the real world!! And didn't you detect a certain amount of enthusiasm on their part now that they can be called persecuted?

Besides, didn't some US radio stations dub the John Lennon song to include the line 'and one religion too...' rather than 'and no religion too...'?

Other Comments by Sharrow

9. Comment #96247 by irate_atheist on December 10, 2007 at 8:23 am

Fuck 'em.

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10. Comment #96250 by kraut on December 10, 2007 at 8:29 am

"We ultimately believe that Christians have been persecuted throughout history," said Houser, "so this is nothing new.""

Too much believe here...the facts are that christians has been both: persecuted and being very effective persecutors.

Other Comments by kraut

11. Comment #96252 by cyris8400 on December 10, 2007 at 8:35 am

While also being an interesting story about local atheism, is this not also evidence for the phenomenon of NILFs? (News I'd Like to F***)

Other Comments by cyris8400

12. Comment #96253 by Gymnopedie on December 10, 2007 at 8:35 am

The Christians have put up a giant tree to block the sign... Isn't this symbolic of their mindset? "We dun like wut yer sayin! Letz block it!" They act like such children it makes me embarrassed we have common ancestry.

Other Comments by Gymnopedie

13. Comment #96255 by rustylix on December 10, 2007 at 8:38 am

"I feel like this is an attack on my beliefs as a religious person," said Houser.

I've often felt the giant 200ft cross right next to the interstate I-57, near Effingham, IL, was an attack on my lack of belief in superstition as an atheist.

Other Comments by rustylix

14. Comment #96258 by Ian on December 10, 2007 at 8:43 am

I think this just shows how intolerant 'moderate' Christians really are; that they feel any expression of contrary opinion is an attack.

They need to ask themselves exactly how this sign infringes their own right to free expression?

Since it does no such thing - they have been permitted to place a nativity scene in the same place - there is no attack and so this feeling of persecution is unjustified.

Christians, you owe freedom of speech to all your fellow citizens, because vetoing for some destroys it totally.

Other Comments by Ian

15. Comment #96259 by mdowe on December 10, 2007 at 8:44 am

So ... what do you think? Will they resort to vandalism (or worse -- violence) before or after they try either the misapplication of some existing law, or the creation of special bylaws, to silence perceived opposition? I don't buy the 'prayer' thing for a second.

Other Comments by mdowe

16. Comment #96261 by Theocrapcy on December 10, 2007 at 8:45 am

haha, xians learn hard way you can't have it both ways. poor persecuted majority, how dare they insult you so.

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17. Comment #96264 by debaser71 on December 10, 2007 at 8:50 am

Oh how I love it.

My town hall, last year, placed an 11ft banner across the main entry that reads "God Bless America". I sent them a letter and when they didn't give me a good response (they claimed "ceremonial deism") I contacted a few groups. FFRF and CFI both sent letters to the town hall and the issue made the AP news and CNN. Anyway I heard so many people (on then ews, in person, in letters, etc) that "oh it's no big deal" "it's just some silly sign" "who cares" "why do you make such a big deal about it" blah blah. I told them that had the sign been pro-atheism or anti-religion people would cry foul. Anyway that there actually is an anti-religion / pro atheism sign out there, and folk are getting all bent out of shape over it (at least for me) brings me great satisfaction.

Here FFRF has an "action alert" about it.

http://ffrf.org/action/2005/babylon.php

I took those pictures.

Other Comments by debaser71

18. Comment #96266 by Rtambree on December 10, 2007 at 8:51 am

I'm offended by the TV channel's framing of the issue in showing the offending tree in front of the offending sign from the offending atheists offending the Christians that are offending them back again... all this offending is just an offence.

Other Comments by Rtambree

19. Comment #96269 by themanchoo on December 10, 2007 at 8:59 am

I've often felt the giant 200ft cross right next to the interstate I-57, near Effingham, IL, was an attack on my lack of belief in superstition as an atheist.

Wow that's one big Effing(ham) cross! Yes I think I'd be offended if that monstrosity was casting its shadow near where I live.

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20. Comment #96274 by alexmzk on December 10, 2007 at 9:13 am

to be honest, it just seems confrontational for them to stick up a sign like that. it'd be reasonable enough to have an atheistic Winter Solstice type message, but this is almost like they put up the sign just to see if the locals would be offended or not.

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21. Comment #96276 by Richard Dawkins on December 10, 2007 at 9:18 am

What this news story does not say is that the offending sign seems to have been lifted directly from our site! See http://richarddawkins.net/underTopStoryB

It is also, incidentally, somewhat similar to the one that Channel Four used to promote Root of All Evil in early 2006. But Channel Four didn't dare use the exact Lennon quote, for fear of being sued. Instead they said "Imagine a World without Religion." They did use a photo of the pre-9/11 New York skyline, but it was a different photo. The one used in Rockville seems to be identical to ours, and presumably comes from our site, as designed by Josh. I am delighted!

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

22. Comment #96279 by Tyler Durden on December 10, 2007 at 9:25 am

Comment by Rtambree:

...all this offending is just an offence.

"Won't somebody please think of the children?" Helen Lovejoy :)

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

23. Comment #96280 by The Architect on December 10, 2007 at 9:28 am

Christians hysterically offended by atheists expressing their opinion? Well, I never!

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24. Comment #96281 by eno on December 10, 2007 at 9:32 am

Nice one Connecticut Valley Atheists! Keep it up.

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25. Comment #96283 by HeathenAngel on December 10, 2007 at 9:41 am

Professor,

I'm glad to see that this doesn't upset you, and that you are actually "delighted" by it.. It has given me some seriously "naughty" ideas.

Our courthouse has a huge christmas tree out front, and there's one in the park as well. Seeing as how I just "came out" this past year, I would like to express my "holiday joy". ;)

Other Comments by HeathenAngel

26. Comment #96284 by The Threat And Glory on December 10, 2007 at 9:43 am

Re post 21: "to be honest, it just seems confrontational for them to stick up a sign like that".

Isn't that the whole point?

Other Comments by The Threat And Glory

27. Comment #96285 by CruciFiction on December 10, 2007 at 9:45 am

Let the US religious wars commence!

Other Comments by CruciFiction

28. Comment #96286 by 82abhilash on December 10, 2007 at 9:49 am

Holy crap!! No signs, No Christmas tree, no nothing. Just plain and simple public spaces, please.

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29. Comment #96287 by cowalker on December 10, 2007 at 9:54 am

rustylix:

themanchoo:

Wow that's one big Effing(ham) cross! Yes I think I'd be offended if that monstrosity was casting its shadow near where I live.

That thing is also made entirely of aluminum siding, which makes it very ugly. The Cathedral of Notre Dame is a monument to a mythology, but at least it's a beautiful example of Gothic architecture.

Last year I did a count of creches in our midwestern town, in the middle middle class area where we live. There was maybe one for every fifty houses, maybe two angels for every fifty houses, although most houses had lights, reindeer, Santa, or giant snowmen or candles.

Every person is free to put up a creche on his own lawn, but how many choose to do so? Go out into your neighborhood this year and do a count.

Christians are just trying to retain control of the public turf. They don't care enough about the Jesus Reason for the Season to go out and buy an illuminated creche and put it on their lawn.

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30. Comment #96288 by sidfaiwu on December 10, 2007 at 9:56 am

Thanks Ducklike! It's amazing how often religionists get away with that particular equivocation. I can't imagine this sort of reaction being considered normal in other arena of human thought...

"'Vote against Proposition 8' is an attack against me, as any supporter of Proposition 8 should take it as an attack against them."

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31. Comment #96291 by g2a on December 10, 2007 at 10:01 am

Hi! The youtube video above is not available anymore.

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32. Comment #96293 by Matt H. on December 10, 2007 at 10:05 am

Forgive me if I don't shed a tear.

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33. Comment #96294 by DarwinsHamster on December 10, 2007 at 10:07 am

I've seen at least two other giant crosses by an interstate. One is, I believe, on the way to (that is, east of) Amarillo, TX, by I-40. I can't remember where the other one is.

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34. Comment #96297 by Jakob_Woods on December 10, 2007 at 10:12 am

I drove past that cross on I-57 countless times on my way to and from SIU. Surprisingly no one that I know from Chicago and the western suburbs even knows that it's there.

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35. Comment #96302 by rustylix on December 10, 2007 at 10:19 am

Thankfully I don't live near such a closed minded deluded majority. Like Jakob_Woods it is impossible to miss on a drive to SIU.

I've often entertained the idea of other symbols of equal proportions scattered throughout the area.

Maybe konquererz's avatar for example.

Other Comments by rustylix

36. Comment #96306 by happyatheist on December 10, 2007 at 10:35 am

LOLOL!

tangerine_tree...I also laughed at the "fighting back with prayer." LOL! I guess talking to one's self is a lot easier for the religious than having to talk to ACTUAL people with opposing views.

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37. Comment #96307 by writerdd on December 10, 2007 at 10:37 am

If they think they're being persecuted they should rejoice, according to the Bible. Not complain and whine.

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38. Comment #96320 by Northern Bright on December 10, 2007 at 10:53 am

Brilliant. I've always loved this sign, ever since I first saw it on this website, and what a fantastic use for it!

To those who are offended because it conflicts with their beliefs, well, tough. Personally I don't share the belief that "the future's bright, the future's Orange" but that doesn't mean I'm offended every time the advert comes on.

You're offended because someone doesn't share your beliefs? How old are you? Time to grow up. No one has the right not to be offended.

So long as religious people have the right to put up signs claiming that religion is good, atheists have the right to put up signs claiming that it isn't. What's the big deal?

Isn't God the Big Daddy of America? Wasn't it God who gave them their much-prized democracy? Isn't free speech central to democracy? Well then, QED - God WANTS atheists to put up those signs! :-)

Other Comments by Northern Bright

39. Comment #96322 by Gymnopedie on December 10, 2007 at 10:57 am

It would be interesting to see a movement on the national level like this. If the Christians and other religious folk put up their material, atheists and nonreligious folk have the same right to put up theirs. It is as simple as that!

I am still stunned that so many citizens don't understand what Freedom of Speech is. If you screen or censor speech, it isn't free!

Other Comments by Gymnopedie

40. Comment #96324 by stereoroid on December 10, 2007 at 11:00 am

Himes also says that the picture of the Twin Towers is meant to show that without religion, 9-11 wouldn't have happened. A suggestion that has upset Muslims, as well.

"This is an attack," said Houser.

In Australian accent: "This is not an attack. THAT was an attack!"

"We ultimately believe that Christians have been persecuted throughout history," said Houser, "so this is nothing new."

Well, at least they have the decency to call that a belief, and not a fact. Is this one of those Christians who thinks Catholics are not Christians, and thinks the Vatican's campaigns against Protestantism were persecution of Christians by Heathens?

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41. Comment #96326 by mintcheerios on December 10, 2007 at 11:08 am

Haha, take that.

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42. Comment #96327 by Barbara on December 10, 2007 at 11:17 am

Speaking of large crosses. This one is about a mile from the home I grew up in.

http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/19045/

I'm not offended by it (I guess I'm just used to seeing it) but I wonder how an "Imagine" sign next to it would be recieved. I doubt it would last more than a day.

Other Comments by Barbara

43. Comment #96329 by Wosret on December 10, 2007 at 11:24 am

I do think that it is a tad tastless, and extreme. However it is true, and as shocking and nasty an implication as it may be, it's truth value cannot be denied. Harsh criticism I do agree is called for given the state of the world.

That "fighting back with prayer" really made me laugh. How to do nothing and think you've helped.

Although I confident that they will fight back with more than prayer, as they so often do. They will fight back policitically and socially. They claim prayer, but in the end it is always them defending God, never God defending them.

However, as God is entirely fictional, this is understandable.

Other Comments by Wosret

44. Comment #96330 by Glacian on December 10, 2007 at 11:26 am

Awesome. I think we should all make a concerted effort to do similar things in our local areas. My CFI group here is considering demanding that the county recognize the Flying Spaghetti Monster and insist on putting up some FSM displays publicly.

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45. Comment #96331 by Northern Bright on December 10, 2007 at 11:29 am

Any chance of this wonderful image being turned into a car window sticker and sold via the RDFRS website?

I'm sure I can't be the only one who'd be happy to purchase one. Anyone else?

Other Comments by Northern Bright

46. Comment #96335 by Riley on December 10, 2007 at 11:50 am

I'm trying to imagine how I would react if a group of Bible thumpers sponsored a sign that read: "Imagine no atheism" and on it was a picture of Stalin and his army.

I would consider it to be at a minimum a political attack against me and I might even take it as a personal threat.

The point of these equal-opportunity holiday display areas is to unite a community regardless of belief or culture; not to give people of different political view-points an opportunity to throw crap at each other.

The Connecticut Valley Atheists' display in this case, in this forum, is inappropriate. They should limit their message to something positive or else they should not participate in the holiday display area.

(note: "imagine no religion" also makes atheism out to be more than a simple statement about the non-existence of a god. It burdens "atheism" with the additional need to defend the claim that the world would necessarily be a better place if only it had no religion in it. I'm personally not willing to assert that claim as true without evidence (to do so would be dogmatic) and worse I can't deny that it was in the name of that claim that the soviets murdered and abused a great number of religious people. In the words of Sam Harris: It's as though our opponents draw the chalk-outline of a dead man on the sidewalk, and we just walk up and lie down in it. )

Other Comments by Riley

47. Comment #96337 by funkyderek on December 10, 2007 at 11:52 am

"Chennelle and Houser have been fighting back with prayer."

Yeah, that'll work!

Other Comments by funkyderek

48. Comment #96338 by steve99 on December 10, 2007 at 12:04 pm

What do the twins towers symbolize?

Alongside the Buddhas of Bamyan, and the dome of the Golden Mosque, they symbolise the destructive power of faith.

Accept belief without evidence as a guiding principle of your life, and you can find a path to horrific destruction; and "God" help the infidels or heretics who stand in your way.

Other Comments by steve99

49. Comment #96340 by walk on December 10, 2007 at 12:12 pm

I guess they just don't get the main message. It says "Imagine"! Wow! I'm being attacked! Someone suggested that I "imagine" something! (A more peaceful world). Ow! Ow! Stop attacking! My imagination is starting to hurt! How can you be so cruel!

Other Comments by walk

50. Comment #96341 by Northern Bright on December 10, 2007 at 12:13 pm

What do the twins towers symbolize? Atheism?

Beautifully answered, Steve99, but personally I decided the question didn't deserve an answer as I couldn't see how it could possibly have been asked "in good faith".

But at least we can reconcile ourselves that the deaths of 1000s of people served ONE purpose at least: it enabled a theist to make a cheap shot at atheism.

And before you claim that the original sign also exploits the deaths of thousands, Krisking, you might like to reflect that the towers symbolise NOTHING. Without religion, they would be standing today and the vast majority of those dead would still be alive. That's just the way it is.

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