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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments |

Document Atheists for Jesus

by Richard Dawkins

atheists for jesus shirtThe argument, like a good recipe, needs to be built up gradually, with the ingredients mustered in advance. First, the apparently oxymoronic title. In a society where the majority of theists are at least nominally Christian, the two words are treated as near synonyms. Bertrand Russell's famous advocacy of atheism was called Why I am not a Christian rather than, as it probably should have been, Why I am not a theist. All Christians are theists, it seems to go without saying.

Of course Jesus was a theist, but that is the least interesting thing about him. He was a theist because, in his time, everybody was. Atheism was not an option, even for so radical a thinker as Jesus. What was interesting and remarkable about Jesus was not the obvious fact that he believed in the God of his Jewish religion, but that he rebelled against many aspects of Yahweh's vengeful nastiness. At least in the teachings that are attributed to him, he publicly advocated niceness and was one of the first to do so. To those steeped in the Sharia-like cruelties of Leviticus and Deuteronomy; to those brought up to fear the vindictive, Ayatollah-like God of Abraham and Isaac, a charismatic young preacher who advocated generous forgiveness must have seemed radical to the point of subversion. No wonder they nailed him.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

My second ingredient is another paradox, which begins in my own field of Darwinism. Natural selection is a deeply nasty process. Darwin himself remarked,

"What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering low and horridly cruel works of nature."

It was not just the facts of nature, among which he singled out the larvae of Ichneumon wasps and their habit of feeding within the bodies of live caterpillars. The theory of natural selection itself seems calculated to foster selfishness at the expense of public good, violence, callous indifference to suffering, short term greed at the expense of long term foresight. If scientific theories could vote, evolution would surely vote Republican. My paradox comes from the un-Darwinian fact, which any of us can observe in our own circle of acquaintances, that so many individual people are kind, generous, helpful, compassionate, nice: the sort of people of whom we say, "She's a real saint." Or, "He's a true Good Samaritan."

We all know people (is it significant that the ones I can think of are mostly women?) to whom we can sincerely say: "If only everybody were like you, the world's troubles would melt away." The milk of human kindness is only a metaphor but, naïve as it sounds, I contemplate some of my friends and I feel like trying to bottle whatever it is that makes them so kind, so selfless, so apparently un-Darwinian.

Darwinians can come up with explanations for human niceness: generalisations of the well-established models of kin selection and reciprocal altruism, the stocks-in-trade of the 'selfish gene' theory, which sets out to explain how altruism and cooperation among individual animals can stem from self-interest at the genetic level. But the sort of super niceness I am talking about in humans goes too far. It is a misfiring, even a perversion of the Darwinian take on niceness. Well, if that's a perversion, it's the kind of perversion we need to encourage and spread.

Human super niceness is a perversion of Darwinism because, in a wild population, it would be removed by natural selection. It is also, although I haven't the space to go into detail about this third ingredient of my recipe, an apparent perversion of the sort of rational choice theory by which economists explain human behaviour as calculated to maximize self-interest.

Let's put it even more bluntly. From a rational choice point of view, or from a Darwinian point of view, human super niceness is just plain dumb. And yes, it is the kind of dumb that should be encouraged - which is the purpose of my article. How can we do it? How shall we take the minority of super nice humans that we all know, and increase their number, perhaps until they even become a majority in the population? Could super niceness be induced to spread like an epidemic? Could super niceness be packaged in such a form that it passes down the generations in swelling traditions of longitudinal propagation?

Well, do we know of any comparable examples, where stupid ideas have been known to spread like an epidemic? Yes, by God! Religion. Religious beliefs are irrational. Religious beliefs are dumb and dumber: super dumb. Religion drives otherwise sensible people into celibate monasteries, or crashing into New York skyscrapers. Religion motivates people to whip their own backs, to set fire to themselves or their daughters, to denounce their own grandmothers as witches, or, in less extreme cases, simply to stand or kneel, week after week, through ceremonies of stupefying boredom. If people can be infected with such self-harming stupidity, infecting them with niceness should be childsplay.

Religious beliefs most certainly spread in epidemics and, even more obviously, they pass down the generations to form longitudinal traditions and promote enclaves of locally peculiar irrationality. We may not understand why humans behave in the weird ways we label religious, but it is a manifest fact that they do. The existence of religion is evidence that humans eagerly adopt irrational beliefs and spread them, both longitudinally in traditions and horizontally in epidemics of evangelism. Could this susceptibility, this palpable vulnerability to infections of irrationality be put to genuinely good use?

Humans undoubtedly have a strong tendency to learn from and copy admired role models. Under propitious circumstances, the epidemiological consequences can be dramatic. The hairstyle of a footballer, the dress sense of a singer, the speech mannerisms of a game show host, such trivial idiosyncrasies can spread through a susceptible age cohort like a virus. The advertising industry is professionally dedicated to the science - or it may be an art - of launching memetic epidemics and nurturing their spread. Christianity itself was spread by the equivalents of such techniques, originally by St Paul and later by priests and missionaries who systematically set out to increase the numbers of converts in what turned out to be exponential growth. Could we achieve exponential amplification of the numbers of super nice people?

This week I had a public conversation in Edinburgh with Richard Holloway, former Bishop of that beautiful city. Bishop Holloway has evidently outgrown the supernaturalism which most Christians still identify with their religion (he describes himself as post-Christian and as a 'recovering Christian'). He retains a reverence for the poetry of religious myth, which is enough to keep him going to church. And in the course of our Edinburgh discussion he made a suggestion which went straight to my core. Borrowing a poetic myth from the worlds of mathematics and cosmology, he described humanity as a 'singularity' in evolution. He meant exactly what I have been talking about in this essay, although he expressed it differently. The advent of human super niceness is something unprecedented in four billion years of evolutionary history. It seems likely that, after the Homo sapiens singularity, evolution may never be the same again.

Be under no illusions, for Bishop Holloway was not. The singularity is a product of blind evolution itself, not the creation of any unevolved intelligence. It resulted from the natural evolution of the human brain which, under the blind forces of natural selection, expanded to the point where, all unforeseen, it over-reached itself and started to behave insanely from the selfish gene's point of view. The most transparently un-Darwinian misfiring is contraception, which divorces sexual pleasure from its natural function of gene-propagation. More subtle over-reachings include intellectual and artistic pursuits which squander, by the selfish genes' lights, time and energy that should be devoted to surviving and reproducing. The big brain achieved the evolutionarily unprecedented feat of genuine foresight: became capable of calculating long-term consequences beyond short-term selfish gain. And, at least in some individuals, the brain over-reached itself to the extent of indulging in that super niceness whose singular existence is the central paradox of my thesis. Big brains can take the driving, goal-seeking mechanisms that were originally favoured for selfish gene reasons, and divert (subvert? pervert?) them away from their Darwinian goals and into other paths.

I am no memetic engineer, and I have very little idea how to increase the numbers of the super nice and spread their memes through the meme pool. The best I can offer is what I hope may be a catchy slogan. 'Atheists for Jesus' would grace a T-shirt. There is no strong reason to choose Jesus as icon, rather than some other role model from the ranks of the super nice such as Mahatma Gandhi (not the odiously self-righteous Mother Teresa, heavens no). I think we owe Jesus the honour of separating his genuinely original and radical ethics from the supernatural nonsense which he inevitably espoused as a man of his time. And perhaps the oxymoronic impact of 'Atheists for Jesus' might be just what is needed to kick start the meme of super niceness in a post-Christian society. If we play our cards right - could we lead society away from the nether regions of its Darwinian origins into kinder and more compassionate uplands of post-singularity enlightenment?

I think a reborn Jesus would wear the T-shirt. It has become a commonplace that, were he to return today, he would be appalled at what is being done in his name, by Christians ranging from the Catholic Church to the fundamentalist Religious Right. Less obviously but still plausibly, in the light of modern scientific knowledge I think he would see through supernaturalist obscurantism. But of course, modesty would compel him to turn his T-shirt around: Jesus for Atheists.

UPDATE: There are some great photos of Richard with the "Atheists for Jesus" T-shirt here

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1. Comment #11376 by Andrew Charles on December 4, 2006 at 10:59 am

I agree with Prof Dawkins' sentiments...

However, in the interests of science (and in this this case, historical truth) it must be said that we cannot talk anymore about Jesus as an historical figure if we are intellectually honest with ourselves. Professor Dawkins, I have a book entitled "Did Jesus Ever Live?" by L. Gordon Rylands printed in the 1930's. I have never heard of him nor have I been able to find a copy of this book anywhere. Perhaps you could find a copy in England, where the book originated, otherwise I would gladly send you mine!

2. Comment #11389 by Nina on December 4, 2006 at 11:36 am

The transformative power of doing good, "being nice'" is a well-known, though rarely discussed in secular media, consequence of following Christ and live as He preached. As an example, see the Mennonites in Pennsylvania, translating His word into action through forgiveness. Are they blind, stupid followers or rational people who freely choose to act a certain way based on their particular theistic view? Who would we rather have for a neighbor--them or you, Prof Dawkins?

3. Comment #11517 by heymrrain on December 5, 2006 at 7:46 am

David,

But, you see, 'Atheists For Jesus' puts forward the point of view of real people, some atheists, whereas 'Jesus Loves Atheists' is putting forward the point of view of a fictional character.

I may as well have a T-shirt with 'Ronald McDonald Loves Tennis', or 'Oliver Twist Loves Kenny G', it would mean about as much as 'Jesus Loves Atheists'.

Admittedly, I've not read Oliver Twist for many years, so there may be some point in the book where he professes a fondness for 'smooth jazz', and it's just slipped my mind.

But I doubt it.

And by the way, no, I can't prove that Ronald McDonald doesn't like tennis. But that doesn't mean he does.

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4. Comment #11614 by Sancus on December 6, 2006 at 12:30 am

Holy crap. I didn't know this article was going to be about the singularity!

Professor D., if you were moved to "the core" by the good Holloway, you must check out Ray Kurzweil's theory of evolution... his latest book is "The Singularity is Near" and you can see a sample chapter at www.singularity.com.

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5. Comment #11982 by drbobsh on December 9, 2006 at 12:15 am

I wonder if human "super niceness" would have existed in prehistoric times (i.e., those times in which natural selection did actually apply to humans). Human "super niceness" would more likely be an artifact of our more advanced society. One then wonders if HSN is an emergent property of advanced intelligent societies, and/or a necessary condition for long term survival of a life form.

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6. Comment #28793 by michaelmichael on March 30, 2007 at 11:05 pm

Having reached an atheistic outlook, I began to wonder where logic would take me when re-examing the story of Jesus. If there is no God then Jesus must clearly have lied when he claimed to be the son of God. If the laws of physics are immutable then clearly Jesus, either alone or more likely in concert with others, was being deceitful when he claimed to have performed miraculous cures, resurrections and other miracles like walking on water.

A serious study of what Jesus actually said leads a person to one of three conclusions about him: He was either a liar, an insanely deluded madman, or the Messiah, the Son of God. It is ridiculous to simply take the position that he was just 'a good teacher' and a nice person.

Atheists should NOT be for Jesus.

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7. Comment #28807 by Shane McKee on March 31, 2007 at 3:12 am

 avatarOh dear - the old fake trichotomy again - mad/bad/god. A couple of comments on this: firstly, it is extraordinarily insulting to anyone who has had mental illness, and is just a reinforcement of old Victorian stereotypes of the "insane". CS Lewis (for it was he) should have been ashamed of himself for coming up with it.

Secondly, it completely ignores the possibility that Jesus may have felt he was being called upon to do god's work in what he said, just like the zillions of religious people that inhabit our planet. I think it's safer to use the term delusion, like RD does.

Thirdly, there is the issue of Jesus being misreported. The Gospels are riddled with contradictions and non-sequiturs, yet one thing Jesus very explicitly did *not* do was go around proclaiming himself to be the messiah - other people tended to do that on his behalf (most notoriously Saul of Tarsus, the syncretist fanatic.

Fourthly, even if Jesus *did* claim to be "The Son Of God", it is not entirely clear (in fact it is extraordinarily unlikely, nay impossible) that he would have believed it to mean that he was "divine" - in fact, in several reported passages, he explicitly *denies* it. So *even if* he was the Jewish Messiah, there is no reason to make the daft leap into thinking that he was claiming divinity. And Messiahs (even resurrected ones) were two a penny back then. It's not Jesus' fault that his subsequent "followers" distorted not only his message and ethic, but his very person.

Jesus was Jewish, following in the tradition of the Galilean Hasid (read "Jesus the Jew" by Geza Vermes for further enlightenment on this). He was not the first to come up with his ideas, but they did seem to strike a chord. In fact, if anything (according to the bible) Jesus took the blasphemy challenge, and with the parable of the Good Samaritan made it very clear that *religion* is entirely unimportant; it is our ethic towards our fellow man/woman that is important.

Jesus needs rescued from Christians; whether that should be by Jews or atheists is an open question. To say that he was "a good person" is more than adequate.

Personally, I think that if Jesus had been around today, he would have been an atheist.

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8. Comment #28818 by DavidMcC on March 31, 2007 at 4:22 am

 avatarRichard: "Let's put it even more bluntly. From a rational choice point of view, or from a Darwinian point of view, human super niceness is just plain dumb."
I see religion, and, separately, morality as manifestations of emotion in modifying what would otherwise be "cold reason". Yet emotions are clearly a mixed bag of things that appeal and don't appeal to us atheists. When it comes to science, one needs cold reason, but we cannot always apply it in politics, otherwise we could become murderous machines - social animals without the positive social emotions of morality. It is regrettable that emotion gets applied to politics through religion instead of directly.

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9. Comment #28830 by Enda80 on March 31, 2007 at 6:10 am

"If the laws of physics are immutable then clearly Jesus, either alone or more likely in concert with others, was being deceitful when he claimed to have performed miraculous cures, resurrections and other miracles like walking on water."
That is a good point by Michaelmichael, one that McKee did not answer.
Of course, the problem is that in his article Mr. Dawkins did not clarify which doctrines or sayings of Jesus he felt were authentic and which were not.

"What was interesting and remarkable about Jesus was not the obvious fact that he believed in the God of his Jewish religion, but that he rebelled against many aspects of Yahweh's vengeful nastiness. At least in the teachings that are attributed to him, he publicly advocated niceness and was one of the first to do so."

For the latter, I doubt that with Confucius, the Buddha, Lao-Tzu, and others living centuries before the alleged Jesus he could be one of the first. However, I should note that Dawkins and many others would be wrong in thinking of the Biblical Jesus as nicer than the Hebrew Bible deity. In fact, the Biblical Jesus is worse. Why? He brings Hell into the Biblical picture!

The Hebrew Bible god killed people, but did not condemn them to eternal suffering. That idea does nto show up until the New Testament in the generally canonical Bible.

Also, the Biblical Jesus taught the imminent end of days.

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10. Comment #28831 by Enda80 on March 31, 2007 at 6:17 am

Note that the Biblical Jesus did teach that unbelief in him would lead to damnation and that there was a Gehenna/Hell. The Biblical Jesus also taught the concept of evil, with the idea of the Devil and the end of days. These were not parables or symbolic, as rendering them symbolic leaves them meaningless, and besides, what do liberals use these stories to teach? Most people today encourage planning one's life, not waiting for the fortuitous deus ex machina (literal or figurative). The fact that liberals do not often use these passages only shows how little they recommend themselves for figurative interpretation.

It seems incongruous to maintain that the Biblical Jesus was great or the greatest moral guide when one must dispose of so much of his thought.

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11. Comment #28832 by Enda80 on March 31, 2007 at 6:20 am

I also seriously doubt that the Biblical Jesus ever says that he thinks the stories from the Hebrew Bible are just myths or parables.

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12. Comment #30523 by Homo economicus on April 8, 2007 at 10:48 am

 avatarAt the Leicester Secular Society (oldest in the UK) one of the busts on the wall is Jesus. A humanist interpretation of his life is possible. Meaning from his life does not need miracles; it does need a good heart and a willingness to die for those you consider sinners.

Not a heart full of hatred wanting non believers going to a burning hell. Shame on those that do not aspire to the love of Jesus and call themselves Christians!

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13. Comment #30529 by simplemind on April 8, 2007 at 12:19 pm

 avatarMichealmicheal good point Enda80 said it all for me.
Jesus!? are you seriously going to adopt it for an atheist role model?
If he did exist then be my guest follow him. isnt that what christains aren doing?
Im an atheist and do not wish to be associated to anything biblical or from my culture kuran.
super nice will evovle when we leave blind faith and ignorance behind.

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14. Comment #32120 by GreatCanadianAtheist on April 15, 2007 at 8:30 pm

Well I don't really think Jesus ever actually existed in any form, but I'm not sure, and I do agree that a lot of the things he was supposed to have said in the NT are pretty good moral lessons.

If you toss out all the nonsensical stuff he was supposed to have done, you end up with a fairly consistently good set of moral lessons. Well as far as I know!

I'm not sure if I would wear the T-shirt, although it might be a good way to start a conversation about stuff. I do agree that we need to find some persuasive way to spread "super niceness".

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15. Comment #32339 by TXS.R.D. on April 16, 2007 at 10:52 pm

 avatarI agree with Dr. Dawkins. From what I've experienced as a theist 'shapeshifting' into an atheist, and having interacted with quite few atheists in my life, especially during last year, I'd think ethics-wise atheism and Christ are very compatible. In fact if Christ were to come back today, morally speaking, I'd bet he would endorse atheists before he would look in the direction of Christians and the rest of the others. Why? because most Chrisitans nowadays(and the others) are more into using Christianity to serve their own agenda as opposed to using themselves to serve Christ as he commanded.

As far as Christ's miracles. I believe he at least performed few of them. He was very focused man. From experience, I do know that the power of focus is almost unframable. Also, Christ is known for his love, and forgiveness (aside from what he has been quoted to say, as I believe, he must have been mis-quoted on numerous occasions); We, as humans have those qualities. In working to lay a base to how he could have done that. I'd say isn't it said that we, as humans only use 10% of our brain capacity? ...look how far we've come. Wouldn't it also be safe to presume that we might be deploying only about as much (10%) when it come to Love and Frogiveness we could actually deploy in all directions and for all reasons at all? I would answer very possibly. Knowing that love is the fondation of all good things in life and forgiveness is a powerfull mending, regenerating, re-inforcing force. And also knowing that Christ, via many testimonials, was an exceptionally gifted guy, I would dare to assume that his capacity for flawless love and and forgiveness could have been the primary ingredients in him being able to perform what he has.

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16. Comment #35141 by FreeFromDelusion on April 26, 2007 at 10:29 am

 avatarThis is a joke, right?

What has Jesus got to do with ethics? He called a woman who was not of his 'chosen' race 'a dog' and refused to heal her, and only did so when she begged and pleaded (like a dog)!

'Do for others as you would have them do for you' is a good maxim, but this was around way before Jesus.

We should be encouraging people to embrace love as a goal for its own sake, not because some supposedly divine figure who had a load of myths written about him endorsed it!

This slogan will only make theists think that are endorsing their way of thinking!

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17. Comment #35488 by TXS.R.D. on April 27, 2007 at 11:05 am

 avatarWe are not endorsing anything. Speaking about endorsing, to insure that one does not fall in the same tiny train of believing what has been said about Jesus and what he, has been quoted as saying; being atheist, it is safe not to cherry pick what one wants to believe is or is not true about Jesus. An example, the typical believer for example might believe, based on what's in the bible, that jesus is "the Light of the world", you as an atheist do seem to believe, and yes, based on what's in The Book, the very same book known as "the bible", that part about the woman being treated like a dog!!! what does really differenciate you from a believer? You too seem to believe, just not the same parts.

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18. Comment #35491 by TXS.R.D. on April 27, 2007 at 11:17 am

 avatar...and beside, dismissing jesus as god has nothing to do with endorsing him as teacher. What are teachers known to do (think about Dawkins for a sec if you're lost)? they are typically known to pass on what they have been taught, added to their own contributions to the following generations. jesus has more than generously done so, if he has been mis-quoted to the point where todays reader is not able to put in the proper context what Jesus might have actually said 2000 years ago, since the bible has been "written and re-written" numerous times since, Jesus shouldn't be blamed for that.

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19. Comment #37780 by Barak on May 5, 2007 at 4:53 pm

The doctrines attributed to Jesus are not ethical in the slightest - they merely encourage gross hypocrisy.

Since when is failing to defend oneself from unprovoked attack ("turning the other cheek") ethical behaviour? Dawkins claims to be an "atheist for Jesus", but if I were to walk up to him in public and punch him in the face, would he turn around and willingly be punched again on the opposite side of his face? No, he wouldn't. He would attempt to defend himself, or demand that the police do so on his behalf. He would then insist on my being subjected to the processes of the judicial system.

Atheism will not be served by adopting a de-theised version of Christian hypocrisy. Ethical doctrines - whether deontological, utilitarian, virtue oriented or some combination of these - should be argued on their merits, and not linked to the hypocritical doctrines of a possibly historical figure widely admired by delusional theists.

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20. Comment #38074 by TXS.R.D. on May 6, 2007 at 10:58 pm

 avatarRe-read and re-re-read his article, I think you completely missed his point.

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21. Comment #40378 by michaelmichael on May 14, 2007 at 7:42 am

TXS.R.D. stated; "dismissing jesus as god has nothing to do with endorsing him as teacher". Fair comment, and yet I do choose to dismiss Jesus as a teacher.

That is not to say he didn't teach some good moral lessons. No, my point is that he was duplicitous and dishonest regarding his very identity. He raised the hopes of the Jewish people at that time and his story has fraudulently raised the hopes of billions of suffering people over the past two millenia.

Why do we call this liar the 'Good Teacher' and why in the name of reason, rationality and humanity would any moral person - atheist or believer - say that they are 'for Jesus'?

Not this atheist.

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22. Comment #42757 by miguelcortes on May 19, 2007 at 11:25 am

Jesus was a cult leader. His group showed all the characteristics of a dangerous cult. His philosophy of passiveness and acceptance, might be good for helping very arrogant people in the short term, but in the long term you are creating an army of passive slaves. I don't think it's good to go to the extreme of super niceness, it's simply not in our best interest.

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23. Comment #48972 by Jabie on June 9, 2007 at 7:12 pm

'What was interesting and remarkable about Jesus was not the obvious fact that he believed in the God of his Jewish religion, but that he rebelled against many aspects of Yahweh's vengeful nastiness. At least in the teachings that are attributed to him, he publicly advocated niceness and was one of the first to do so. To those steeped in the Sharia-like cruelties of Leviticus and Deuteronomy...'

In light of the Gospel accounts of Jesus this statement is positively ridiculous, all the more so for a man who claims to believe what he does because of 'evidence'. What evidence do you have that Jesus rebelled from scripture? Every criticism he had of the pharasees and other leaders was in regard to their misuse and unlawful additions to scripture to burden the people. You flipantly disregard Jesus' belief in God as though it were unavoidable at the time of his birth, but on what authority do you base this? If: 'Accounts of Jesus's resurrection and ascension are about as well-documented as Jack and the Beanstalk'.(http://news.independent.co.uk/people/profiles/article2037496.ece). Does this mean that the accounts of Jesus being 'super nice guy' and yelling at the religious leaders are factual because you like them, and that the parts where he is crucified and resurected are false because you don't? His ministry was boun up with scripture and spirituality. I dare you to remove him from religion using the evidence available.

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24. Comment #64065 by flying goose on August 17, 2007 at 1:29 pm

 avatarAs to whether or not Jesus existed, I don't know of any current New Testament historians who would dispute his existence. Would he be an atheist if he lived today? He doesn't live today, in the flesh at least, so how can we know? Of course in his own day the Romans would have regarded him as an athiest, he didn't believe in idols. Slippery word atheist. That said I liked the article. If Richard Dawkins wants to be an atheist for Jesus, its a free country.

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25. Comment #64084 by ? on August 17, 2007 at 3:09 pm

 avatarI read this article a while back in Free Inquiry and enjoyed it. I also liked the book Jesus for the Non-Religious by Spong and some of Crossan's books on the Historical Jesus (he's an expert on early Christian history and a radical ex-monk with a very modern non-supernatural theology).

One can read the Gospels, edit out the obvious supernaturalism and demonology and come up with the idea of Jesus as an idealistic reformer and lover of the oppressed.

However, someone else could easily paint the portrait of an insignificant minor cult leader with no original ideas who influenced history only because his name was attached to a later, successful sect founded by Paul.

Jesus apparently died without writing a book or gathering a large following (twelve full-time followers, perhaps several dozen regular hangers on and the occasional admiring audience of a few hundred), so its easy to make him over in a variety of ways.

Maybe this is part of the appeal. He is a sort of floating, achetypal image of an "ideal man" who's handful of known aphorisms and parables can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways.

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26. Comment #71486 by psikeyhackr on September 18, 2007 at 9:53 pm

 avatarIn a rather interesting way Jesus was quite similar to atheists.

It is obvious from the gospels that he was regularly attacking religious leaders. Atheists don't mention the possibility that God thinks organized religion is stupid trash. Organized religion is just some people pretending they know more about God and metaphysical reality than everyone else and brainsoiling children into adopting their delusions of grandeur.

psik

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27. Comment #71490 by Roy_H on September 18, 2007 at 10:34 pm

 avatarJesus was a jerk......

http://godisimaginary.com/i39.htm

This is a very thought-provoking website!

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28. Comment #71502 by Richard Morgan on September 19, 2007 at 12:15 am

Shane McKee:
Personally, I think that if Jesus had been around today, he would have been an atheist. sounds a lot like "personally, I think that if Jesus had been around today, he would not have believed in himself."

"Atheists for Jesus" T-shirts are interesting in the same way as those T-shirts vaunting the fact that Carrefour is an "official sponsor" for the Rugby World Cup. Who is the winner in this unlikely association? Clearly it is Carrefour exploiting the popularity of Rugby in France.

So, who wants to wear a T-shirt exploiting the popularity of the Jesus myth? Atheists?
Aw, c'mon...
Why not "Vegetarians for MacDonalds" or "Greenpeace for Shell"?
This is certainly one of the silliest ideas to come out of that formerly brilliant biologist's mind.
Yes, I know, we're none of us getting any younger, but all the same...
Also, just a kindly word of warning here:
Could we achieve exponential amplification of the numbers of super nice people?
We?
"We" being this generation? Or "we" being the followers of Richard Dawkins?

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29. Comment #86011 by Yussy on November 7, 2007 at 8:19 pm

I don't think we necessarily need more 'nice' people in the world. But we could certainly do with more 'good' people.

A nice person is simply one that doesn't offend you. You know the type. They'll say something like, "I believe in a woman's right to choose".

On the other hand a good person, say somebody like Mother Teresa of Calcutta, with condemn an evil like abortion, but at the same time give her entire life over to the service of others.

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30. Comment #86012 by BAEOZ on November 7, 2007 at 8:25 pm

 avatarWe've got a live one here! Thinks abortion is evil and Mother Teresa was good.

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31. Comment #121056 by lilzilla on February 2, 2008 at 10:55 pm

The reason it's hard or difficult to spread niceness is that it's very easy to erroneously believe one is "nice", ignoring one's un-nice behaviour most of the time. As pointed out by some helpful curmudgeons in this very discussion, Jesus himself behaved cruelly and pettily at times. As Dr. Dawkins points out himself, people who believe themselves to be highly moral or good, but reason themselves into actions that hurt others. Plenty-- /plenty/ of Christians feel that following Jesus' teachings about being good to each other are just as important as belief in his divinity. Some of them fail and are horrible much of the time, but some of them succeed. If Dr. Dawkins is serious about spreading niceness, he would presumably consent to behaving nicely himself, which he has not shown an aptitude for in the past, nor here.

I call myself an Atheist for Jesus. To be more accurate, I suppose I'm an Atheist for the Popular Conception of Jesus as a Liberal Radical Promoter of Peace and Love (aka Hippie Jesus). Though I don't believe epiphany comes from an external source, I think it's very important to respect as a human experience, and one that will influence people's beliefs more than any well-reasoned article ever could.

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32. Comment #214624 by J Mac on July 20, 2008 at 5:35 pm

 avatarTXS.R.D. [Re: comment from April 16, 2007]

While I agree with many of your sentiments you just hit one of my pet peeves. 10% of one's brain? ... no, that's total BS.

I am all for the idea that humans are capable becoming much more than we are, but the truth is sufficient to believe that. I don't need a fiction about using 10% of my brain.

-------------

Dr Dawkins, great article. Loved it. I actually thought of the slogan atheists for jesus some time ago and figured someone else had already come up with it. Then I heard it mentioned in a video of a debate you were in. So I googled it and here was this article. Those darn memes do have a way of getting around.

To those who quibble over whether Jesus actually lived or did or said certain things: Does it matter? Whether or not the MAN actually lived is not relevant, the ICON certainly does exist. I can learn valuable lessons from Aesop's fables without worrying about if they actually happened because of course they didnt.

Also I would find it foolish for someone to reject Aesop's lessons simpy because they don't like animals - which is like those who reject the good things in the stories of Jesus because they want nothing to do with anything religious. If you want nothing to do with anything inspired by or supported by religion then you will have to throw out most of the greatest art and literature human civilization has ever created. For better or worse art, literature, and religion have been tightly intertwined for most of our history.

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33. Comment #252224 by piperhaven on September 22, 2008 at 3:58 pm

"Jesus probably didn't exist but if he were around today, he would be an atheist" Anybody see a rational flaw in this statement? If Jesus the man of the Gospels were around today he wouldn't be the man he was two thousand years ago unless he was transported magically through time. In which case I think he might be a trifle bemused. The only way he could make make judgements about the present world would be if he was, as is claimed, a supernatural being omnisciently aware of the history of the world.

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34. Comment #269183 by dharmapunk5 on October 22, 2008 at 5:52 pm

I have several problems with this article, I'll cover the main ones in this comment.

1. The article reads as if Jesus existed.
There is no proof that Jesus existed. So much for the scientific method.

2. Making the assertion that the Jesus character was a kind and gentle person who came to bring peace, tells me you clearly have not read the book in it's entirety.
""Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)"

And lets not forget an earlier comment, Jesus is the one who introduced Hell. It wasn't enough for Jesus to torture a person while they lived, but to go after one after death? That's more than sadistic, that's psychotic.

3. Wearing a T Shirt that says Atheists for Jesus and supporting even the statement gives the folks who believe even more fuel for their delusion.

They can now say: See even Richard Dawkins believes in Jesus, we were right!

The cause just got set back decades.....

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35. Comment #298109 by gwm on December 6, 2008 at 10:30 pm

There seems to be a reoccuring opinion that Jesus not only was not "God" , but that he didn't even exist as an historical figure. I get why people have trouble believing the first part. The second part has got me scratching my head. For example, the quote

The article reads as if Jesus existed.
There is no proof that Jesus existed. So muchfor the scientific method. post 35

I will not take offense as a believer, but I certainly will take offense as an historian. You have four primary gospel accounts, one of which (Luke) purports to be an eyewitness account. Textual evidence seems to suggest that all four were composed before the turn of the first century. Then there are numerous apocryphal gospels. Then there are three non-Christian historians who mention him (Suetonius, Tacitus, and Josephus, although Josephus is possibly an interpolation). Then you have Paul's letters, in which the historical Paul interacts and has discussions about the historical Jesus with the historical disciples. Then you have the extensive writings of Irenaeus, who purports to have third hand knowledge of Jesus (Through Polycarp and John). Moreover, the earliest copies of the gospels are remarkably old in comparison to other ancient textual sources. You can very well demand a standard of evidence that allows you to say that there is no proof that Jesus ever existed, but you better be ready to tear out more than 90 percent of the pages from your history textbooks.

Moreover, you can go on saying that there is no evidence that Jesus existed because the scientific method can't prove it, but that will just go to show the absurdity of thinking that scientific methodology is appropriate for the examination of all branches of knowledge.

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36. Comment #352855 by davidhines on March 17, 2009 at 2:42 am

I like your idea of atheists for Jesus, for the reasons RD gives: (a) that atheism was not a live option for Jesus' time, but he took a lot of the nastiness out of theism, (b)that the number of people who spread niceness is a paradox. It seems to go far beyond kin selection and even the "trust everybody once" strategy.
I would add that the parable of the good Samaritan seems to be recognising "niceness" beyond the circle of Jesus' own religion. It doesn't take a very big step from there to recognising it among people who have no religion at all.
I was a Christian atheist myself for a number of years. I've now shifted sideways into being more of a pantheist. But I would agree that theism is only a minor issue, compared with spreading the niceness meme.
My website wesleyschair.com opens with the words "preachers and atheists welcome".

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37. Comment #352865 by CaptainMandate on March 17, 2009 at 5:34 am

 avatarProf Richard Dawkins:

I am no memetic engineer


enough modesty already! I'm sure you invented the meme "meme". you're either a memtic engineer or "the creator" so make your mind up!

I like the sentiment of this though. of course there will be religious types who get upset by it but I expect if you wore a T shirt stating "Atheists Demand Persecution" you'd upset most christans for moving in on their territory.

Other backlashes to look out for:

Creationists for Darwin
Westboro Baptists for Gay Soldiers
Muslims for Equality

it's all good!

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38. Comment #352869 by saugbrewer on March 17, 2009 at 6:50 am

 avatarFor Chrissakes! Sometimes I wonder at the lack of common sense on this site. There's no need to dive into a treatise on whether Jesus really existed or regale us with the old chestnuts about the obvious evils in the gospels. That's not what Richard is trying to get at here.

I personally doubt that there was a historical Jesus. (All due respect to the Christians who will want to present the "facts" of his life to me.) And granted, the Jesus of the bible is a less than perfect character who spouts all sorts of stupidities. The simple point being made is that many of his ideas were radical for their time and challenge the reader to consider his or her views on morality and behavior.

What's wrong with admitting that the idea of loving one's neighbor or treating others with respect is a good thing' Regardless of the context.

Richard isn't advocating everything Jesus supposedly said, just the idea that "niceness" has a value that benefits humanity. Who could possibly argue with that'

OK, now back to the shouting about how one of the world's foremost proponents of free thinking and openmindedness has done the cause irreparable damage with this shocking article...

Again, for Chrissakes, people: lighten up.

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39. Comment #352870 by CaptainMandate on March 17, 2009 at 7:01 am

 avatarbtw

where can i get me one of them t shirts'

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40. Comment #352876 by BillySands on March 17, 2009 at 8:05 am

 avatar
What was interesting and remarkable about Jesus was not the obvious fact that he believed in the God of his Jewish religion, but that he rebelled against many aspects of Yahweh's vengeful nastiness.


He actually believed he was that god (John 10:30). So he would appear to be rebelling against himself there (the wonders of the totally consistent bible!)

What's wrong with admitting that the idea of loving one's neighbor or treating others with respect is a good thing' Regardless of the context.


Nothing, but why attribute it to jesus or christianity? Confuscious said it long before "jesus"

Why should I be for jesus when all the good stuf of christian morality has been ripped off from elsewhere? I also dont want to be assocciae with an ass hole who is supposedly going to send most of those who ever lived to eternal torment.

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41. Comment #352881 by saugbrewer on March 17, 2009 at 8:32 am

 avatarTo Billy Sands: agreed. There's no reason to attribute these ideas exclusively to Jesus. And agreed, they didn't even originate with Jesus.

That doesn't make the ideas themselves worthless. Richard is not prosthelitizing for Jesus and it seems to me that the knee jerk reactions to condemn him (and Jesus) for simply advocating compassion and generosity miss the mark.

My suggestion is this: forget the context. Dismiss the biblical Jesus and LISTEN to what Dawkins is trying to say. This site is filled with emotional, intelligent people who love to debate. This isn't a debating situation; it's a contemplative one.

Again, it's not the messenger, it's the message. And it's worth hearing.

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42. Comment #352884 by CaptainMandate on March 17, 2009 at 8:45 am

 avatarsaugbrewer

i'm in agreement with you here. the fact is there are many people who are better role models. darwin himself for example but jesus is famous for it regardless of if he ever existed and whatever bits of the bible you pick from.

my first thought was how funny it would be to upset xtians by adopting their deity but it goes further than just annoying them, it actually hamstrings their argument for christianity.

its all well and good trying to use hes "good deeds" to promote a belief system but to be able to answer with "yeah, nice bloke, we could learn a lot from such sentiments" while still maintaining skydaddy is a load of old balls is another method of pointing out what it actually means to be an atheist

it's almost impossible to appease religions who see everything about atheism as going against their "perfectly reasonable" beliefs when the truth is, we don't have a shared belief system.

this is another example of Prof Dawkins bending over backwards to give some common ground and in my opinion, xtians have a choice to either accept that being a nice guy is no one's sole prerogative and the debate is simply about the existance of god rather than who has the best philosophy or attack "atheists for jesus" and show themselves up to being just another hate-group with a fake smile

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43. Comment #352885 by BillySands on March 17, 2009 at 8:46 am

 avatar
That doesn't make the ideas themselves worthless


I didn't say they were worthless. I'm all for propagating the ideas for their own sake. Jesus is irrelevant and I personally will not assocciate myself with such a poor role model. As you are aware, we dont need jesus to agree with these ideas (that he stole). Let's concentrate on good values ant leave the mythical monsters out of it.

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44. Comment #352893 by gr8hands on March 17, 2009 at 9:21 am

When people ask "What Would Jesus Do?" I always reply: "Take up a scourge, beat people who are innocent of breaking any law, cause vandalism and property damage, and demand you hate your father and mother."

Amazingly, the theists don't think it's funny.

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45. Comment #352897 by MaxD on March 17, 2009 at 9:25 am

 avatarGr8hands,
I have a different approach to that question.
I say, "Nothing. If he did exist he's been dead for two thousand years."

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46. Comment #352909 by Mark Jones on March 17, 2009 at 9:50 am

 avatarThe use of Jesus as the super nice examplar is not endorsing him as the best person who ever lived, or even *that* he lived, but for the shock value of reclaiming the symbol of Christianity for *humanity*. Perhaps this is being too parochial, but it seems a reasonable idea to me.

As such, I enjoyed the article, and I like the idea of trying to encourage super-niceness (damn those atheists and their super-niceness obsession!). I also like the irony of an article advocating niceness that includes RD calling the religious super-dumb!

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47. Comment #352911 by CaptainMandate on March 17, 2009 at 9:56 am

 avatarGr8hands

Personally I refer to the gospel of Derek & Clive and suggest he'd go into the garden of gethsemane and wank himself stupind for 40 days and nights

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48. Comment #352912 by irate_atheist on March 17, 2009 at 10:02 am

 avatar44. Comment #352885 by BillySands -

Spot on, mate.

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49. Comment #352917 by severalspeciesof on March 17, 2009 at 10:19 am

 avatarI'm at a loss as to what to make of this...

I had to check my calendar to see if it was April 1st...

I had this very idea the first time I ventured into non-belief...

I need to think this through to see if it could go anywhere, though as an ice-breaker, one couldn't do better...

And I see a new super hero on the horizon...

Superman meet SuperNIceman:

SuperNiceman: "Well, hello Superman, what a fine looking and I must say charming outfit you have there. Can that actually stop bullets?"

Superman: "Well, thank you. But this suit is only a guise to obscure my alter ego Clark Kent from being recognized as Superman. It's my actual body that stops the bullets."

SuperNiceman: "Have you considered being really really nice to the evil ones you encounter?"

Superman: "Well... No, not really. What good would that do?"

SuperNiceman: "I suspect that while you are being very very nice to them while they are trying to create devious ways to rule the earth, they might just stop what they are doing and think things through and see that being nice will eventually get them what they want."

Superman: "Uh... no... I don't think so. Being evil is who or what they are. They wouldn't listen. It's part of what makes them evil... Their impatience and all that"

SuperNiceman: "I beg to differ"

Superman: "No... I beg to differ" *Promptly throws a right hook at SuperNiceman, knocking him out* "There, I win..."

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50. Comment #352924 by Old Sarum on March 17, 2009 at 10:54 am

Call me peculiar, but I don't actually like Jesus. In fact he's one of the aspects of Christianity I find least appealing, from a "human interest" point of view - an arrogant, self-righteous, self-important young hippy who wanders aimlessly around, expecting all and sundry to worship him and hang onto his every naive, hippy pronouncement. And I dislike his long, greasy hair and general appearance.

So no, I won't be buying the T-shirt, thanks all the same :)

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