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Saturday, December 15, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document Happy Newton Day!

by Richard Dawkins, New Statesman

Reposted from:
http://www.newstatesman.com/200712130029

NewtonDecember 25th is a date to celebrate not because it is the disputed birthday of the "son of God" but because it is the actual birthday of one of the world's greatest men

O come, O come, Emmanuel,
And ransom captive Israel . . .


Advent, we learned at school, was a time of anticipation: of looking forward to the coming of the Messiah. But we boys knew better. Advent was looking forward to something a lot more interesting - Christmas. That great processional tune, played on the organ to announce the Advent hymn, still stirs my depths, fifty years on. It meant that Christmas, which was the main thing each boy had been looking forward to since his birthday, was really coming - and what bad luck on poor Jesus, having his birthday on Christmas Day.

The Advent hymn anticipated the excited sleeplessness of Christmas Eve, then the knobbly weight of the stocking, distended and crackling with promise of the "real" presents to come after breakfast or, in unlucky years, after church. That heraldic minor-key theme, on the trumpet stop, was a fanfare for Hamleys, for Meccano and Hornby Dublo, for overeating in a wasteland of coloured wrapping paper.

We knew little of the theology of Advent. "Emmanuel", we gathered, might be a rather daring misspelling, but it really was just another way of writing "Jesus". How else interpret the familiar words of Matthew (1:22-23)?

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying/Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel . . .

We never wondered why God would go to such lengths simply to fulfil a prophecy. Nor, indeed, why God would go to the even greater lengths of sending his son into the world in order that he should be agonisingly punished for the sins that mankind might decide to commit at some time in the future (or for the past scrumping offence of one non-existent man, Adam) - surely one of the single nastiest ideas ever to occur to a human mind (Paul's, of course). We never wondered why God, if he wanted to forgive our sins, didn't just forgive them. Why did he have to scapegoat himself first? Where religion was concerned, we never wondered anything. That was the point about religion. You could ask questions about any other subject, but not religion.

We'd have been intrigued if our scripture teachers had come clean and told us that Isaiah's Hebrew for "young woman" was accidentally mistranslated as "virgin" in the Greek Septuagint (an easy mistake to make: think of the English word "maiden"). To say that this little error was to have repercussions out of all proportion would be putting it mildly.

From it flowed the whole Virgin Mary myth, the kitsch "Our Lady" of Catholic grotto-idolatry, the sub-paedophile spectacle of young girls in virginal white First Communion dresses, the goddess status of not just Mary herself but a pantheon of local "manifestations". Pope John Paul II thought he was saved from assassination in 1981 not just by Our Lady but specifically by Our Lady of Fatima. As I have remarked elsewhere, presumably Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Medjugorje, Our Lady of Akita, Our Lady of Zeitoun, Our Lady of Garabandal and Our Lady of Knock were busy on other errands at the time.

Our scripture teachers could have gone on to tell us that Isaiah's "Emmanuel" verse was really nothing to do with Jesus, but referred to a temporary problem in Jewish politics seven centuries earlier. The birth of a child called Emmanuel was a sign to King Ahaz of Judah, to encourage him in his little local dispute with the neighbouring kingdoms of Syria and Israel.

It is typical of the religious mind to force a gratuitous symbolic meaning where none was intended. Christian writers later saw Judah's oppression as a symbol for mankind's enslavement to death and "sin", and ended up unable to tell the difference, like people who send Christmas cards to the Archers. An even funnier example is the late Christian gloss on the "Song of Songs", a frankly erotic document headed, in Christian bibles, by hilariously euphemistic epigraphs such as "The mutual love of Christ and his church".

The desire to fulfil prophecies is where our most heart-warming Christmas stories come from. There is no actual evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, let alone in a stable. But he must have been born in Bethlehem, because the prophet Micah (5:2) had earlier said:

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou
be little among the thousands of Judah, yet
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel . . .


So, Luke has Mary and Joseph starting in Nazareth, but forced to go to Bethlehem ("everyone into his own city") to pay a Roman tax (ancient historians rightly ridicule this tax story). Matthew, by contrast, has Joseph's family starting in Bethlehem, but moving to Nazareth after returning from the flight to Egypt. Matthew turns even Jesus's relatively undisputed con nection with Nazareth into a strained effort to fulfil yet another prophecy:

And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. (Matthew 2:23)

Mark, the earliest Gospel, doesn't mention the birth of Jesus at all. John (7:41-42) has people saying that he couldn't really be the Christ, precisely because he was born in Nazareth not Bethlehem, and because he was not descended from David:

Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the


To add to the confusion, Matthew and Luke, though theirs are the only Gospels claiming that Jesus had no earthly father, both trace Jesus's descent from David through Joseph, not Mary (albeit through very different intermediates from one another, and very different numbers of intermediates).

Most but not all scholars think, on balance, that a charismatic wandering preacher called Jesus (or Joshua) probably was executed during the Roman occupation, though all objective historians agree that the evidence is weak. Certainly, nobody takes seriously the legend that he was born in December. Late Christian tradition simply attached Jesus's birth to a long-established and convenient winter solstice festival.

Such seasonal opportunism continues to this day. In some states of the US, public display of cribs and similar Christian symbols is outlawed for fear of offending Jews and others (not atheists). Seasonal marketing appetites are satisfied nationwide by a super-ecumenical "Holiday Season", into which are commandeered the Jewish Hanukkah, Muslim Ramadan, and the gratuitously fabricated "Kwanzaa" (invented in 1966 so that African Americans could celebrate their very own winter solstice). Americans coyly wish each other "Happy Holiday Season" and spend vast amounts on "Holiday" presents. For all I know, they hang up a "Holiday stocking" and sing "Holiday carols" around the decorated "Holiday tree". A red-coated "Father Holiday" has not so far been sighted, but this is surely only a matter of time.

For better or worse, ours is historically a Christian culture, and children who grow up ignorant of biblical literature are diminished, unable to take literary allusions, actually impoverished. I am no lover of Christianity, and I loathe the annual orgy of waste and reckless reciprocal spending, but I must say I'd rather wish you "Happy Christmas" than "Happy Holiday Season".

Fortunately, this is not the only choice: 25 December is the birthday of one of the truly great men ever to walk the earth, Sir Isaac Newton. His achievements might justly be celebrated wherever his truths hold sway. And that means from one end of the universe to the other. Happy Newton Day!

Richard Dawkins, FRS is Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. His most recent book is "The God Delusion" (Black Swan, £8.99)

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1. Comment #98956 by retrotransposon on December 15, 2007 at 2:47 am

Happy Newton Day, everybody

=)

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2. Comment #98958 by Monosilabbiq on December 15, 2007 at 2:52 am

By Mithras, this winter solstice can be a minefield!

Other Comments by Monosilabbiq

3. Comment #98959 by Duff on December 15, 2007 at 3:00 am

Professor Dawkins, we Americans have been celebrating Newton's birthday for nearly a hundred years with a delightful, sweet cake filled with sweetened figs.

I'm sorry for that. I apologize.

Other Comments by Duff

4. Comment #98966 by GBile on December 15, 2007 at 3:57 am

 avatar
... public display of cribs and similar Christian symbols is outlawed for fear of offending Jews and others ( not atheists )


How true.

Other Comments by GBile

5. Comment #98967 by toomanytribbles on December 15, 2007 at 4:02 am

 avatarno father holiday is necessary -- americans have santa, although that has christian connotations too, as it means saint.

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6. Comment #98968 by Noodly on December 15, 2007 at 4:07 am

 avatarHamleys?

Gamages was the Christmas toy Mecca for us boys of a certain vintage.

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7. Comment #98973 by Mr.E on December 15, 2007 at 4:24 am

... public display of cribs and similar Christian symbols is outlawed for fear of offending Jews and others ( not atheists )t


I wonder why no one is ever afraid offending an atheist.
Oh wait I might make a good guess.

Happy what ever day to one and all.

Mr.E

Other Comments by Mr.E

8. Comment #98974 by physicist on December 15, 2007 at 4:26 am

I have always believed that Newton is the greatest personality in the history of scientific development (and one of the greatest thinkers of all times, for that matter), contrary to pop culture that promotes and trivializes some of his 20th century peers (e.g., Einstein or Feynman, who did great things but, admittedly, "they were standing on the shoulders of giants".) Let us also not forget Maxwell and Boltzmann, the second one even being a tragic figure, driven to depression and suicide partly also because of narrow-minded, fanatical and almost "religious" ideas of fellow scientists, of all people! (OK, they were not strictly religious, they were "philosophical", whatever this means). Poor fellows, they lived long before the media-society offered publicity and glamour. But let us not forget, as Steven Weinberg has repeatedly pointed out, that there are also other impediments to scientific inquiry, completely unrelated to religion. Financial interests, political priorities and, worst of all, philosophical prejudices and overblown egoes being some of them.

I 'd rather have preferred it if Richard Dawkins had engaged a more positive tone; one bringing forward the truly revolutionary achievements of Newton as, to some extent, Steven Weinberg has done in his marvelous book "Dreams of a Final Theory". (I truly recommend this book to anybody wishing to read the physicist's angle on questions of Philosophy and God.) In his article, Richard Dawkins he simply used Newton's name at the title and at the closing sentences, spending the rest on a debunking of Biblical myths, which I find rather unfair to the great man.

Other Comments by physicist

9. Comment #98978 by allanplaskett on December 15, 2007 at 5:00 am

Newton was a great scientist, but also an obsessional alchemist, misogynist and anti-socialite. He was a great mind, but a great man? I think not. He has never rid himself of the suspiscion of having plagiarised Leibnitz in the invention of the calculus. As Master of the Mint he caused the public execution of petty counterfeiters.

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10. Comment #98983 by Rtambree on December 15, 2007 at 5:14 am

 avatar9. Comment #98978 by allanplaskett

Yes, always good to keep in mind - separating the scientific discovery from the uglier aspects of the personality that discovered them. Although, separating the two can be taken too far. The ban of Wagner's music in Israel is a iconic example of this - where an anti-semitic man writes operas that are not anti-semitic - so why ban the operas?

In addition, Newton was also obsessed with the apocalytic prophecies in the book of Revelation and often engaged in personal vendettas in the Royal Society. Even Einstein had a few character flaws, most notably the way he treated his first wife.

Darwin comes out pretty good though - certainly the most humble and gentle of the "big three": from what we know he was faithful to his wife and family and friends, generous to his rival Wallace, didn't engage in personal animosities, and wanted to accumulate data before advancing theories. The worst thing that can be said about Darwin is that he shot wildlife, which wasn't considered a problem in those days.

Other Comments by Rtambree

11. Comment #98984 by physicist on December 15, 2007 at 5:25 am

In reply to #9 (allanplasket) and #10 (Rtambree): let us judge people in their own historical context. I think this point is trivial, actually, and none of us, clear thinkers(!), should fall into this trap. Alchemy and astrology were fashions of the time; alas, misoginy too. What "anti-socialite" means, I am not sure but I can easily think of some individuals who don't enjoy much of social mixing with fools and they might be labeled as anti-social or whatever. Apocalyptic prophecies? Again, theology was *the* scholarly occupation of that time! That's why Newton deserves all the credit for raising above the constraints of his era and making it possible that scientific thinking (in terms of modern theoretical physics) could be born. Forgot already that Harvard, Cambridge and Oxford were founded as theological seminaries? Did you ever have a stroll around Cambridge's oldest colleges, including Newton's own Trinity College? It is obvious that they were designed as monasteries. Please judge people according to the standards of the times they lived, not the modern ones.

My characterization of Newton as "great man" pertained to his scientific achievements. He certainly had character faults, as we all do, a huge ego probably being one of them. He was human. If you are looking for saints, turn to religion, please.

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12. Comment #98988 by alexhouse on December 15, 2007 at 5:39 am

This has reminded me of a campaign I was considering starting. In 2012 the Olympics is coming to London and quite frankly I'm almost chewing my leg off in embarrasment about the opening ceremony already. I want to try and get the London Olympic Comittee to build it around Newton and the Enlightenment as a whole. I can see it now - astronomical objects, equations flying by, all that good stuff. Bearing in mind we can't really celebrate the one truly remarkable (in the literal sense) thing about Britain - the fact that we led the largest empire that there has ever been - I think the seeds of the relative eutopia we live in right now (I know, I know, but compare western society now with any other period in history and I think you'll have to admit I have a point) were in the Royal Society and it probably the one thing of which I can say I am proud of from a "patriotic" POV. Whether any of this is accurate is very much open for argument - but as a basis for an opening ceremony, I think it beats a bloody stupid jousting competition. We could throw in the Beatles too at a push. I'm sure there's some way we can connect the Enlightenment and them.

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13. Comment #98990 by physicist on December 15, 2007 at 5:43 am

Plus, the whole discussion on the term "great man" completely misses one of the main points I tried to make in my posting, I am afraid. What I am tried to say is that for us, practicing scientists, who earn our living by doing research, science is not the glorious, myhtical and glorified enterprise that many in this forum believe it is. It is ridden with many faults, traps and prejudices that humans carry in their minds and in their souls. By virtue of intellectual honesty, chastising religion in one thing and very much to the point in most cases, but a great deal of inhibition to scientific progress is self-inflicted, through hierarchical, political and financial structures of the scientific community itself. To some extent, science has a built-in process of self-healing, in the sense that scientific lies will be sooner or later discovered by means of peer review, attempts to reproduce results etc. But some results may cost an enormous amount of money and effort to be reproduced; and some truths may lie buried for a long time because power structures within the scientific community may prevent them from being aired -- and none, absolutely none of these has the slightest to do with religion.

Fair enough, this is an atheist site, so religion is going to be the prime target. But blasting away, repeatedly, some of the most obviously idiotic creations of pure imagination and superstition seems limited to me. One should also look at one own's "weapons", scientific thinking being our most powerful one, with the same critical spirit we claim to treasure.

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14. Comment #98992 by Nails on December 15, 2007 at 5:45 am

 avatar
It meant that Christmas, which was the main thing each boy had been looking forward to since his birthday, was really coming - and what bad luck on poor Jesus, having his birthday on Christmas Day.

Ho ho ho. Love it.

For better or worse, ours is historically a Christian culture, and children who grow up ignorant of biblical literature are diminished, unable to take literary allusions, actually impoverished. I am no lover of Christianity, and I loathe the annual orgy of waste and reckless reciprocal spending, but I must say I'd rather wish you "Happy Christmas" than "Happy Holiday Season".

Absolutely.
All you politically correct idiots can shove it up your arse.
Christmas it is for me and my family, and the only vaguely religious symbol is a fairy (an angel really, but you get the picture) atop the tree - and only because my youngest made it at nursery school.
And as for me professor, I actually enjoy the monumental waste and self-indulgance!!
Thank god it's only once a year though.....

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15. Comment #98993 by quicksilver on December 15, 2007 at 5:54 am

 avatarMerry Newtonmas!

We'll need new -Newtonian- carols now.

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16. Comment #98996 by gyokusai on December 15, 2007 at 6:18 am

 avatar
Such seasonal opportunism continues to this day. In some states of the US, public display of cribs and similar Christian symbols is outlawed for fear of offending Jews and others (not atheists). [...] I am no lover of Christianity, and I loathe the annual orgy of waste and reckless reciprocal spending, but I must say I'd rather wish you "Happy Christmas" than "Happy Holiday Season".


In Europe, I think, this might be different again. When I worked for a free ads paper in the early nineties, for example, some people knew or at least surmised that I did not believe in God, and when my then-boss wished me the German equivalent of "Happy Holiday Season" instead of "Happy Christmas" with a genuine smile, I not only was totally delighted but suddenly felt enormously "accepted" in a way. Moreover, others from the staff who had not only overheard her "holiday" greeting but also registered the delight that had crossed my face, several weeks or months later came to me and asked me questions that I, again, was delighted to answer.

Here, the "Happy Holiday Season" greeting wasn't used at all to placate other beliefs; it even became a sort of "awareness" moment for atheism as such.

^_^J.

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17. Comment #98998 by Jack Rawlinson on December 15, 2007 at 6:31 am

 avatar"...the past scrumping offence of one non-existent man, Adam"

Oh, I like that. I'm going to have to steal that I'm afraid. :-)

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18. Comment #98999 by Serious on December 15, 2007 at 6:32 am

and a Happy Yuletide to you all.

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19. Comment #99005 by Diacanu on December 15, 2007 at 7:14 am

 avatarRe: post #3.

*Laughs self to red faced and breathless*

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20. Comment #99006 by bluebird on December 15, 2007 at 7:16 am

 avatarInteresting article, and posts!
Despite our P.C. society, I don't forsee 'Father Holiday' replacing Santa Claus, Kris Kringle, Saint Nick, Saint Nicholas, Father Christmas, etc.
http://snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp

An early happy B-D to Sir I.Newton! You can take your hat off to the scientist, and put it back on for the man, if you wish.

The Brits gave us the Christmas card:
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_cards
The U.K. has a great idea in recycling cards.

This weekend is Beethoven's birthday.
A neat pairing of Ludwig and astronomy:
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/features/news/30dec99.html

Other Comments by bluebird

21. Comment #99009 by gruebait on December 15, 2007 at 7:24 am

 avatarI intend to celebrate Newton Day until I fall down.

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22. Comment #99010 by home8896 on December 15, 2007 at 7:24 am

 avatarOh, I only get irritable and rebellious about "Merry Christmas" because, around here, people really do believe they are being utterly attacked by secularists and that "Merry Christmas" is believed to be banned, though none of this is true. The woman in line with her friend, yelling about the horrid removal of Christ from Christmas and the evil secularists attacking her religion make me want to puke. So saying "Merry Christmas" around here is a symbol of Christian dominion solidarity, which gets up my nose.

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23. Comment #99012 by Shane McKee on December 15, 2007 at 7:46 am

 avatarWhile we're all on about not judging Newton outside the context of his time, let's not judge Jesus of Nazareth outside his context. In "Jesus the Jew", Geza Vermes shows how Jesus fitted perfectly into a well-attested model of the Galilean Hasid, an itinerant Jewish preacher, like many before and since.

He clearly was NOT the Messiah, but towards the end he probably was a Very Naughty Boy - starting a riot in the temple, and consciously emulating the classic (and hackneyed) Triumphal Entry. Pilate probably thought "Oh bollocks - here's another one." And he wasn't to be the last.

But as RD points out, it took the disaffected Hellenised Jewish wannabe extremist Saul of Tarsus to really take these disparate themes and make up the mother of all cock-and-bull theologies. Jesus himself was a much more straightforward character.

The genealogies are interesting - Matt & Luke are different, but they converge then diverge at Zerrubabel son of Shealtiel. If you remember Isaiah, this chap was the original Messiah - except he failed to perform. The bible is full of such crazy cobblers. One wonders what other treats are in there that we just don't have the reference points for...

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24. Comment #99013 by errm... on December 15, 2007 at 7:59 am

Of course! That explains the tree. It should be an apple but the red, green and golden balls represent apples and the coloured lights are for his work on the spectrum. We have a star on top which is also appropriate. I suppose chocolate coins stand for his work at the mint.
By the by, does anyone remember Alan Coren's article "A happy Saturnalia to all our readers"? Very funny and showing how things 'might' have been. Froeliche Weihnachten zu Allen! Or Io Saturnalia if you insist (a lot too violent in some ways for me)!

Other Comments by errm...

25. Comment #99015 by kaiserkriss on December 15, 2007 at 8:11 am

 avatarI agree with Richard on this one, I too wish my friends Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year rather than the truly silly Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings.

In fact I'll probably go on wishing people Seasons Greetings through out the year just to make the point of how silly it is. jcw

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26. Comment #99021 by Friend Giskard on December 15, 2007 at 8:46 am

 avatarInteresting fact. Newton was actually born on the 4th of January by the Gregorian calendar which we use today, but England was was still using the Julian system at the time.

(For the same reason the Russian "October revolution" really took place in November.)

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27. Comment #99023 by lbq on December 15, 2007 at 8:55 am

Very amusing contortions, these. We Scandinavians do not celebrate Christmas, but Jul (Yule), the old pagan solstice festival. Attempts to christianise it have not been too successful, it remains essentially the Great Pagan Pork-Eating Festival. No way you could assimilate that to either Chanukkah or Ramadan! And we do not have Santa or Father Christmas either, but Tomten - a sanitised and dressed up version of the old farmstead gnome, originally the spirit of the ancestral founder. If you did not put out a nice bowl of porridge to him on Julafton (Christmas Eve) he might get pissed off and burn the place down. God Jul to you all!

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28. Comment #99030 by NormanDoering on December 15, 2007 at 9:28 am

Newton Day! Ahhh, so the war on Squidmas begins.

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29. Comment #99045 by _J_ on December 15, 2007 at 10:31 am

 avatarI thought Johann Hari covered this very well last year.

Christmas is an entirely worthwhile thing, just not for the reasons that your average church will fervently remind you of.

Just caught the end of a discussion on Radio 4 between a rather breathless lady from The Scotsman and another lady from the NSS, on the presentation of religion in school around Christmas. There was enough to agree with in the words from the The Scotsman woman (the toleration of many faiths, the silliness of hiding Christmas' Christian origins for fear of causing offence), but she also proved to be yet another first-class example of the self-contradictions to which well-meaning religious people are prone. 'Yes, different religions should be respected and taught to children, of course, but Christianity must be presented not as myth, but as a truth that some people don't want to believe' - that sort of thing. I must have said things like this myself in the past, and felt comfortable that it made sense. It's amazing, really.

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30. Comment #99051 by jeepyjay on December 15, 2007 at 11:11 am

 avatarCalling 25th December "Newton Day" is something I've been doing for years, so I'm pleased to see Professor Dawkins picking up on it.

I've long thought that Newton's somewhat difficult (could one say messianic?) personality must have been affected by the circumstances of his birth. Besides being born on Christmas day (by the Julian calendar then in use), there were other factors. The English Civil War had started in August. His father had died before he was born, so in effect he had no father.

No doubt these parallels encouraged his lifelong interest in biblical chronology and prophecies.

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31. Comment #99067 by jimbob on December 15, 2007 at 12:26 pm

Now before you all get carried away with this Newton thing, remember, gravity is ONLY A THEORY!

;-)

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32. Comment #99074 by Kris Verburgh on December 15, 2007 at 12:45 pm

Great! I know now what to write on my Christmas cards: Happy Newtonday! ;-)

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33. Comment #99076 by sent2null on December 15, 2007 at 12:48 pm

 avatarPhysicist wrote:

I have always believed that Newton is the greatest personality in the history of scientific development (and one of the greatest thinkers of all times, for that matter), contrary to pop culture that promotes and trivializes some of his 20th century peers (e.g., Einstein or Feynman, who did great things but, admittedly, "they were standing on the shoulders of giants".)


Though I must kneel at the pew of Newton in glorious praise of his accomplishments, it should be mentioned that Newton made that quote referencing the people he considered giants! Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo and the Greeks. If Newton's time was religiously stifling by our standards imagine what it was like in the depth of the dark ages, that is what Copernicus and Kepler had to deal with. I have a periodic sense of awe when I consider what Kepler alone did in writing harmony of the worlds without getting burned at the stake. All that religious flowering speech and talk of celestial spheres certainly helped keep the dogmatic religious powers of his age from taking him to the cross!

Let us also not forget Maxwell and Boltzmann, the second one even being a tragic ...


Maxwell, another of my personal heroes indeed did foundational work but was it so surprising, not in my view. If he didn't synthesize electromagnetism I am sure Riemann, Stokes , Lorentz would have done it along their way to describing non Euclidean mathematical foundations. I still put Einstein way above Maxwell for that simple reason, his realizations were far away from obvious given the current state of the science...in fact they were completely out of left field even to the founders of the non euclidean maths that Einstein used (and extended!) to make his theory into a reality. Of course I am similarly left with my jaw on the floor when I consider Newton going from limit to integral and differentiation, or going from inclined planes to F = -Gm1,m2/r^2. Regarding your comment about Leibniz, I am sure Newton is turning in his grave every time an elementary Calculus text uses dv/dt to describe acceleration. ;)

I'd be a happy man ready to die with a smile if I could discover just one such non obvious truth about the world!

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34. Comment #99081 by huxley_leopard on December 15, 2007 at 1:05 pm

I thought the true discoverer of the Law of Gravitation was Robert Hooke. He worked at the Royal Society at the time, and Newton sent him a draft of his paper. Hooke wrote back, "I think you'll find it's an inverse square law". Newton was the first to say, "standing on the shoulders of giants", which was a dig at Hooke, who was a very short man.

Other Comments by huxley_leopard

35. Comment #99086 by huxley_leopard on December 15, 2007 at 1:24 pm

And Hooke worked with Wren on the Monument to the Great Fire of London, and St. Paul's Cathedral, which were both designed so that they could also be used as giant telescopes (before reflecting telescopes meant they could be much shorter and see further)

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36. Comment #99090 by Sara on December 15, 2007 at 1:34 pm

Richard Dawkins (and others who may have this info)

Could you get these "objective historians" who "agree that the evidence [for Jesus] is weak" to go on record? I have deduced the same thing myself, but it hasn't been easy wringing information out of people.

Oh, they willingly state with great confidence that "respected scholars agree" that Jesus existed, but they squirm and obfuscate when asked about the type and amount of evidence. They typically leave off anything about the divinity of Christ (which, of course history does not address), knowing full well that that's what many people imply. I think they're seriously misleading people.

Please, assuming you have the evidence to back up your claims about the scholars, let's see it.

If they don't want to talk - please tell us why.

Other Comments by Sara

37. Comment #99104 by pholt on December 15, 2007 at 3:02 pm

(before reflecting telescopes meant they could be much shorter and see further)


The reflecting or Newtonian telescope was another contribution of Sir Isaac Newton.

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38. Comment #99110 by evaporated on December 15, 2007 at 3:33 pm

...and all this time I thought it was a day to celebrate Jesus's travel to earth on a sleigh with holy reindeer to deliver the good news of salvation!

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39. Comment #99165 by Wosret on December 15, 2007 at 7:27 pm

 avatarIt will always just be Saturnalia to me. However I enjoy celebrating the winter solstice. Rebirth of the planet. When the shortest day hits, and it's all up hill from there.

I was raised in a weird ass christian sect, we never celebrated christmas, or even birthdays. I got presents and an seven day trip (seven days at our destination, depending on where we were going it would sometimes take a few days of driving to get there) on the feast of tabernacles. To be honest, I still think that was better than christmas, but it has it's charm to. I wouldn't have minded getting that too, and getting birthday presents.

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40. Comment #99173 by dragonfirematrix on December 15, 2007 at 7:56 pm

 avatarHave a Happy Newton Day, and a wolderful winter solstice.

Wayne (Forest, VA)

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41. Comment #99175 by dragonfirematrix on December 15, 2007 at 7:58 pm

 avatarLet me re-phrase that wobbly wolderful typo.

Have a Happy Newton Day, and a wonderful winter solstice.

Wayne (Forest, VA)

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42. Comment #99183 by Cartomancer on December 15, 2007 at 8:50 pm

 avatarGrr, in the spirit of the season I shall refrain from responding in my usual fashion to sent2null's misrepresentation of the days of Kepler and Copernicus (which was the early modern period, not even the middle ages, and certainly not the dark ages), and content myself with pleasant reverential thoughts about Newton Day.

Actually Newton is a tremendous personal hero and idol of mine as well, and not, as some of you suggest, in spite of his personal flaws but very much because of them. Of all the great intellectuals none seems to epitomise the lonely, haunted and awkward nature of genius as much as Newton does. He was bitter, malicious, obsessive, neurotic, stubborn, unpleasant and nasty, and yet he knew few equals in his intellect and none among his contemporaries. For someone as socially awkward, prone to far from laudable emotions and steeped in personal bitterness as myself this is a tremendous comfort and inspiration.

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43. Comment #99188 by monkey2 on December 15, 2007 at 9:10 pm

 avatarSara

If you're interested in the historical 'evidence' for jesus you might like Rook Hawkins' analysis http://www.atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=3275

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44. Comment #99198 by Sara on December 15, 2007 at 9:53 pm

thanks, Monkey2, for linking me to that site.

I'm familiar with this kind of evidence. What I'd like to see the evidence scholars use to determine the existence of Jesus. I'd like this from scholars, with their names attached to i and their reasons for thinking the evidence is compelling.

It doesn't seem like too much to ask of experts regarding one of the most important figures in world history.

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45. Comment #99202 by Bonzai on December 15, 2007 at 10:07 pm

 avatarCartomancer,

He was bitter, malicious, obsessive, neurotic, stubborn, unpleasant and nasty, and yet he knew few equals in his intellect and none among his contemporaries.


My undergraduate physics prof put it more succinctly: "Newton was a great mind, but also a big ass hole."

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46. Comment #99203 by monkey2 on December 15, 2007 at 11:02 pm

 avatarAs I understand it, the scholars use the same evidence that Rook Hawkins is analysing, i.e. any historical document that mentions key words or names (all alternative spellings and translations are allowed). If someone wrote the name Jebus then that is evidence. Despite the amount of evidence being virtually non-existent and highly disputable, in their eyes it is, nevertheless, evidence.

I would doubt that it is the acceptance of such evidence as compelling proof of jesus' existence that entitles them to the description of expert or scholar. More likely it is their years of searching and familiarity with historical records that entitles them to those credentials.

You are quite right to demand to know their reasoning if they subsequently use their 'finds' to justify the 'truth of the Gospels' but don't hold your breath. They have probably spent their whole lives on a quest to prove what they believed before they started

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47. Comment #99231 by physicist on December 16, 2007 at 2:06 am

Hi, sent2null, re: comment #39. I see your points, I think these are pretty much issues of taste and priorities. Newton made possible the synthesis pure abstract reasoning (the Greeks) with experimentation (Kopernikus and Galileo), to create what constitutes a most revolutionary achievement that still characterizes modern science: the formulation of natural laws in mathematical terms. This way he paved the way for the coming of Theoretical Physics, on which all modern science and technology (excluding, to some extent, the biosciences) is based.

On the Maxwell/Einstein thing: I disagree because Einstein's SPECIAL relativity wouldn't have been developed without Maxwell's equations and, contrary to popular belief, Einstein was not working in a vacuum, locked away in his tiny patent office in Bern. But as I said, these are subjective judgements.

Well, folks, I am not going to call it "Newton Day" nevertheless, simply because no matter how deeply I admire someone I am opposed to personal cults. Christmas is how I got to know it and I 'll stick to it for reasons of social compatibility. As long as we are *aware* of what's true and what's a myth, I don't see any reason to spend time and energy in renaming things, there are more substantial things to do.

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48. Comment #99249 by SMART on December 16, 2007 at 5:31 am

Don't celebrate Christmas, celebrate Krismas! Krismas has the same sounding name we're all familiar with... but with no religious connotations! http://www.smartsociety.org/christandchristmas.html

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49. Comment #99254 by bluebird on December 16, 2007 at 5:47 am

 avatarCool... didn't know S.M.A.R.T. had a website.

We love the CafePress items for sale!

Thanks for the link.


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50. Comment #99267 by Sara on December 16, 2007 at 6:49 am

Hi, Monkey2 – actually the type of reputable scholar I'm referring to and I think Richard is referring to do NOT "use their 'finds' to justify the 'truth of the Gospels.'" They typically state their positive position on the existence of Jesus, then leave the rest to the imagination of the listener. Scholars only take a public stand on the positive message they know their audience will appreciate, but as I mentioned above, are typically silent (as any reputable academician would be ) on the issue of the supernatural.

I can understand that they would want to avoid such a controversial topic, but I think it needs to be pointed out to them and to the public that it is inherently disingenuous to tacitly encourage the connection between Jesus existence and Jesus' divinity.

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I suppose this behavior is unconscious for some of them, being so practiced at concealing publicly unwelcome biblical issues. Still, it's got to stop. At some level, they're responsible for circulating falsehoods. If they don't know that, they need to be told.

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