1. Comment #157066 by yussel123 on April 8, 2008 at 2:26 pm

I'm sick and tired of the forces of religion claiming that they are being "persecuted". It reminds me of the Claude Raines character in "Casablanca" who reacts with "shock, to find out there's gambling going on here". Whenever religious forces get into positions of power, those forces brutally persecute anybody who dares to disagree. If the proponents of evolution are a bit on the offensive, then the religious have nobody to blame but themselves.

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2. Comment #157077 by Elles on April 8, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Oh no... Oh no... Oh no...

I reckon that teachers shouldn't be discriminated against for teaching FSMism or astrology either.

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3. Comment #157078 by kenj on April 8, 2008 at 2:38 pm

If only Jefferson could see us now

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4. Comment #157083 by Vadjong on April 8, 2008 at 2:42 pm

Well, if this opens the door to anti-gravity teaching, hopefully we'll make some headway on that front.

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5. Comment #157091 by Devolution on April 8, 2008 at 2:47 pm

Nothing that occurs in this state surprises me anymore. Can we take a vote for kicking Florida out of the union?

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6. Comment #157092 by yussel123 on April 8, 2008 at 2:48 pm

#5

Florida tried to leave the Union and we forced them to come back. I guess we are stuck with them.

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7. Comment #157097 by alexmzk on April 8, 2008 at 2:51 pm

well, the teachers don't have a say in what theories to teach. that's a debate for the scientists and people who are actually involved in finding out about this stuff.
sadly, academic freedom doesn't allow taking lying when teaching young, impressionable children and teenagers.

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8. Comment #157105 by black wolf on April 8, 2008 at 2:56 pm

As the bill, contrary to the above substitution of the word 'idea', specifically mentions 'scientific' as a criterium, and as ID/creo have already been officially reckognized as the unscientific religious idea they are, I don't expect ID to make any headway with this.
The ACLU has already vowed to sue anyway.
For the sake of the American student, I hope that someday there will be legislation in your country to implement a general mandatory school attendance instead of homeschooling, given that they also increase funding and generally improve the education quality. Homeschooling may be a practical and working alternative in countries like Austria and Denmark, but in a country like the US, where 70% of homeschooling parents cite religious reasons for their decision, the outcome can only get worse over time.

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9. Comment #157107 by Elles on April 8, 2008 at 2:57 pm

"Florida tried to leave the Union and we forced them to come back. I guess we are stuck with them."

The only state in the Bible Belt that was never a slave state is Oklahoma... which belonged to the Cherokee at the time.

Maybe the Union would be better off if the Confederacy won?

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10. Comment #157153 by yussel123 on April 8, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Elles,

They certainly had nicer uniforms :) Too bad they didn't have better generals.

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11. Comment #157164 by phasmagigas on April 8, 2008 at 3:44 pm

'problems with the theory'

hmm, news to me, i wonder if anybody elaborated on this, no transitional fossils maybe??

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12. Comment #157174 by MelM on April 8, 2008 at 3:54 pm

Ending homeschooling is not a good idea.
Well, when the "Christian Nation" cult takes over all government funded education (including state universities) and decides the standards for credentialed teachers, there will be no place to go for atheists who want to save their kids from the nutters or just plain rotten education--like "feel good education." The home and private schools and organizions will be the last to go under the water and the last place to make a stand. I don't grant the state any right to take over kids education. I'll borrow a phrase from Hitchens and say that such a very short sighted move, just to apply a rod to the nutters, would be making a "rod for our own back."

California will reverse such a decision--I hope.
In fact, a California court in L.A. has recently made such a decision which would essentially do away with homeschooling in California. However, there is so much opposition to it that the decision will be revisited in June. I was appalled by the decision and hope it's overturned.

Government culture?
I'll never understand why people are willing to turn culture over to the political process then hope that somehow, it won't go against them. People should remember that Mrs Dick Cheney was head of the National Endowment For the Humanities from 1986 to 1993. Don't think the nutters will leave the state supported universities alone. When the time is ripe, they will be made Jesus friendly; there's simply no way the "Christian Nation" movement can win without taking control the state universities. Indeed, there is already a bill in-work in Minnesota to make universities safe for Jesus.

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13. Comment #157176 by FightingFalcon on April 8, 2008 at 3:58 pm

Man, I love living in the North East of America where we don't have to deal with this garbage...

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14. Comment #157186 by MelM on April 8, 2008 at 4:12 pm

"Florida Citizens for Science" web site.
http://www.flascience.org/wp/?p=534

I've been following the Florida situation for awhile. This is a very disappointing development. It's also very important because this "academic freedom" scam is being tried elsewhere.

"It's about religion." and "It's not about religion"

Orwellian doublethink maybe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

According to the novel, doublethink is:

" The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them . . . . To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies -- all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth."

This "Christian Nation" cult is anti-reason, anti-science, anti-Western Civilization, and un-American.

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15. Comment #157191 by Lil_Xunzian on April 8, 2008 at 4:18 pm

FightingFalcon,

I share your sense of relief. Long live New England!

Best,
Alex

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16. Comment #157274 by koldito on April 8, 2008 at 8:03 pm

Paraphrasing Lewis Black, these people deserve to have fossils thrown at their heads.

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17. Comment #157278 by Saerain on April 8, 2008 at 8:18 pm

13. Comment #157176 by FightingFalcon on April 8, 2008 at 3:58 pm

Man, I love living in the North East of America where we don't have to deal with this garbage...

Indeed. I am constantly surprised by how much I do not recognise the country outside of New England.

16. Comment #157274 by koldito on April 8, 2008 at 8:03 pm

Paraphrasing Lewis Black, these people deserve to have fossils thrown at their heads.

'I would love to have the faith to believe that it took place in seven days, but I have thoughts, and that can really fuck up the faith thing. Just ask any Catholic priest. And then there are fossils. Whenever anyone tries to tell me that they believe it took place in seven days, I reach for a fossil, and go, "Fossil". And if they keep talking, I throw it just over their head.'
- Lewis Black

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18. Comment #157282 by FightingFalcon on April 8, 2008 at 8:22 pm

Maybe the Union would be better off if the Confederacy won?

They certainly had nicer uniforms :) Too bad they didn't have better generals.

Are you two serious? Do you have any idea what the US would look like today had the Confederacy won? Take a trip to the Deep South of America today and you'll understand why we should all be thankful that the Union won.

For the record - I'm a Yankee and damn proud of it!

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19. Comment #157307 by 82abhilash on April 8, 2008 at 10:05 pm

Why not just utterly and completely privatize schooling. Then the nut jobs will be forced to teach their nonsense in their own schools with their own money. I would like to see how many people will willingly send their kids there.

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20. Comment #157325 by Hobbit on April 8, 2008 at 11:29 pm

Comment #157176 by FightingFalcon

Man, I love living in the North East of America where we don't have to deal with this garbage...

Even better to live on the other side of the planet in Austalia!

This shit just doesn't come up.

I am about to make my first visit to the very backward state of Florida for work. I think I will have to be very careful and keep my atheist mouth shut. You all have too many guns for my liking.

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21. Comment #157326 by Raiko on April 8, 2008 at 11:32 pm

I am not familiar with American laws on schooling, so could someone tell me whether there's some sort of test that homeschooled children have to undergo to evaluate their education?

Because of parents prove incapable of properly schooling their kids, the children SHOULD be forced into a real school - not to punish the parents, but to grant the children a right for proper education.


---


And this might be incredibly old news, but it's shockingly fascinating that there is political quarrel, lawmaking and bill-passing going on, purely based on the thoughts of people who just don't understand what they're talking about.

I mean... that's amazing, isn't it?

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22. Comment #157338 by mundusvultdecipi on April 9, 2008 at 12:15 am

My understanding is that homeschooling is not permitted in Germany, for example, as the authorities have taken the position that traditional out-of-the-home education is not solely about academic instruction but is also necessary for the proper socialisation of children and to ensure they are exposed to a widely diverse range of other people and views.

Having said that I would be nervous about unqualified blanket restrictions of homeschooling - to take one example in my own country (Ireland) you occasionally hear of parents who have children with very specific needs (such as a medical condition or disability, or who are exceptionally gifted) who feel that a mainstream school environment is deficient in meeting their child's particular requirements and decide that homeschooling is more beneficial.

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23. Comment #157343 by RationalistHomeTchr on April 9, 2008 at 12:41 am

I'm not sure why black wolf brought homeschooling into this discussion, but as a long-time homeschooler and a teacher and tutor of other people's kids, as well, I can say that I've seen lots of well-educated and well-socialized homeschooled kids, and some that weren't so well served by homeschooling, BUT the same (both the positive and the negative) can be said of schooled kids. It all depends so much on the particular community/school/parents/teachers/kids...

My husband teaches high school biology at a public school, and he claims that he really CANNOT teach that evolution is a fact. He feels compelled by the textbook, district policy, the kids themselves, the school culture, and the other bio teachers to take a safe-and-moderate route when teaching evolution. The word "theory" is used lavishly - with no accompanying discussion on what it really means to a scientist. Of course he doesn't teach creationism as a viable alternative "theory," but he doesn't do as good a job on the topic of evolution as he should.

With our own homeschooled kids, we didn't have to worry about the religiosity of the community at large!

Legislating away rights for all because of the stupidity of some makes no sense to me...

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24. Comment #157362 by JemyM on April 9, 2008 at 1:50 am

I cannot take southamericans seriously anymore. It seems the frequency of people compatible with the developed civilization down there are close to or equal to the middle east.

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25. Comment #157375 by Mal3 on April 9, 2008 at 2:27 am

They certainly had nicer uniforms :) Too bad they didn't have better generals.

Actually, they DID have better generals. Most of the Union generals kept getting their asses kicked until Grant came along, and even he was reticent to actually go out and attack anybody.

Lincoln wrote a letter to Grant at one point asking "If you aren't going to use the army, may I borrow it?"

Anyways, I agree with Fighting Falcon.

Though New Mexico wasn't even a state back then, we were a free territory, so I suppose we're Yankees too!

We just have to put up with the Texans. ;)

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26. Comment #157379 by irate_atheist on April 9, 2008 at 2:45 am

Another good reason not to invest in the USA...

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27. Comment #157380 by yussel123 on April 9, 2008 at 2:52 am

Braxton Bragg was incompetent. R.E. Lee was obsessed with attacking at a time when he ought to have allowed the Union to chase him and attack on ground of Lee's choosing.

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28. Comment #157390 by Raiko on April 9, 2008 at 3:21 am

mundusvultdecipi:

My understanding is that homeschooling is not permitted in Germany, for example, as the authorities have taken the position that traditional out-of-the-home education is not solely about academic instruction but is also necessary for the proper socialisation of children and to ensure they are exposed to a widely diverse range of other people and views.

We have a requirement here for kids to attend a real school. Private schools are possible (and more and more kids go there), but it must be a school nevertheless, as far as I know.

... but why are we suddenly talking about Germany, anyway? I'm just curious how that came up.

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29. Comment #157413 by ghost of numf-el on April 9, 2008 at 4:23 am

Raiko - "... but why are we suddenly talking about Germany, anyway? I'm just curious how that came up. "

Oh my Dog! Someone talking about something that isn't American! How did that happen?

It was surely a more pertinent point being made about education that which side had the prettier uniforms in the American civil War, wouldn't you say?

GoNE

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30. Comment #157414 by everyone on April 9, 2008 at 4:23 am

If you want to know why this is happening, please watch the docu 'zeitgeist' (www.zeitgeistmovie.com)

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31. Comment #157415 by FightingFalcon on April 9, 2008 at 4:25 am

Hobbit,

I am about to make my first visit to the very backward state of Florida for work. I think I will have to be very careful and keep my atheist mouth shut. You all have too many guns for my liking.

First trip to America or just first trip to Florida?

You'll be surprised actually - Florida has a ton of Brits because of the cheap exchange rate right now. As an American living in the UK getting the short end of the stick, I can attest to how nice it must be for a Brit visiting in America. Brits are especially all over Orlando - apparently they love Disney World :-)

Anyway, hope you enjoy America. We're not all crazy!

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32. Comment #157435 by Hobbit on April 9, 2008 at 5:04 am

Comment #157415 by FightingFalcon

First trip to America or just first trip to Florida?

Been to the US many times, but never to the south (apart from Dallas - America's second dullest city).

I always seem to get myself into a discussion as to why god is not there. Never a good way to win friends in the US!

This time I'm heading to Miami.

Stupid I know, but I always worried about guns. We have very few gun related crimes in Australia.

I actually like Americans. The vast majority I have met are very reasonable and very friendly people.

I work with several Americans and they all seem to believe in god in some form or another, even if, when you push them, they really don't buy the whole deal. They just feel they have to due to their families.

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33. Comment #157448 by DamnDirtyApe on April 9, 2008 at 5:37 am

Falc, I know you're not crazy :D But those darn Homeland security guys scare the McJesus out of me.

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34. Comment #157475 by Wosret on April 9, 2008 at 6:27 am

Damn is it easy to be a cynic.

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35. Comment #157486 by Pattern Seeker on April 9, 2008 at 6:56 am

This bill isn't going anywhere and most of you know it. The X-tians who are making a stink are just upset at all the press "atheism" is getting these days. The minute this bill reaches 'The Powers That Be,' it will be quickly moved of the table. I don't think anyone wants to risk their political career for some hackneyed attempt at introducing "another view" into the science curriculum. Not after the Dover ruling. They love to talk that smack though!

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36. Comment #157489 by al-rawandi on April 9, 2008 at 7:03 am

Pattern Seeker,




If it gets to the point where it may be enacted, there will be another court case where ID is exposed as a fraud.

The definition of crazy is trying the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

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37. Comment #157493 by Pattern Seeker on April 9, 2008 at 7:18 am

al-rawandi,

Nothing new there. If you google "Anti-evolution bill" you will see a few such cases in America like-

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2008/LA/260_louisiana39s_antievolution__4_1_2008.asp

or

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2008/MO/970_a_new_antievolution_bill_in_mi_4_4_2008.asp

Seems to me that, if anything, these things only distract people from the real issues at hand.

As the article states above, most of this is a flap about Florida amending their science standards earlier this year. They're still upset they lost.

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38. Comment #157497 by discipline on April 9, 2008 at 7:30 am

As a former resident of New England now living in rural Virginia, I often wish that the South had perhaps not won the Civil War, but at least been allowed to secede from the union. Problem solved....

I'm reminded of the "Jesusland" map from the 2004 election:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesusland_map

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39. Comment #157506 by EvidenceOnly on April 9, 2008 at 7:52 am

Paraphrasing Lewis Black, these people think that an episode of the Flinstones is a scientific documentary.

How long before we bring "academic freedom" to first grade math class and teach that:

1 plus 1 is "any number that you want it to be as long as the answer does not hurt your religious feelings"

We should add this to Wikipedia as the new definition of "totally nuts".

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40. Comment #157509 by RobDinsmore on April 9, 2008 at 8:02 am

38. Comment #157497 by discipline on April 9, 2008 at 7:30 am
As a former resident of New England now living in rural Virginia, I often wish that the South had perhaps not won the Civil War, but at least been allowed to secede from the union. Problem solved....

I have a similar situation. I moved from Boston to central Illinois for my doctorate. Now the University area has plenty of intelligent academic types, but the locals, whoa!. There are so many goddamn churches with signs saying Jesus this and Jesus that. There are large churches in the middle of cornfields with no other structures for miles and miles. It really opened my eyes to the problem. In Mass all the religion seemed to be about solemn child molestation instead of this evangelical bullshit. I suppose I was lucky that I was a fat kid who grew up in Mass.

The one hope I have is due to the high correlation between rural and jesus/republican and urban democratic.

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41. Comment #157536 by wednesdayguevara on April 9, 2008 at 8:35 am

Far be it from me to deprive any of you the opportunity to display your obvious superiority to those of us living in the southern U.S., but this is actually a reaction by the nutters to a recent tightening of the science curricula in Florida public schools. We're not all goobers with naught but two teeth in our heads down here.

Now I see that Pattern Seeker has made the same point. Thanks, PS!

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42. Comment #157542 by jimbob on April 9, 2008 at 8:42 am

Just got back from another visit to Florida (had to go --- not my choice).

It was the same old story: $200 for rooms that would cost $60-70 in central USA, and $25 per night of room tax and bed tax (for goodness sake!) adding insult to injury.

Restaurants routinely add 18% service tax to bills (mandatory), and of course, you get "service" as a result.

I don't know what the state motto is, but I have dubbed it the "We gouge you" state.

Maybe that's just another manifestation of devout religion? Whatever, I'd never voluntarily go there again.

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43. Comment #157543 by al-rawandi on April 9, 2008 at 8:42 am

Wednesday,




What do you call 32 rednecks????




A full set of teeth.

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44. Comment #157556 by wednesdayguevara on April 9, 2008 at 8:58 am

al-Rawandi,

A favorite redneck pickup line:

Nice tooth! Wanna fuck?

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45. Comment #157557 by al-rawandi on April 9, 2008 at 9:03 am

Hahaha



Why are redneck murders so hard to solve?





Because there are no dental records and the DNA is all the same.

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46. Comment #157558 by Lucas on April 9, 2008 at 9:04 am

As Jim said, "The west is the best." I live in the NE too, but the NW is the best part of the US. Especially for non-believers. Look at the stats.

http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/gnoreligion/flash.htm

There are only about 5 or 6 states that I have never been to, and Florida is one of them. Most of the rest share a border with Florida. I really have no intention of ever going there. Some of the other states are worth going to, but I just don't see the draw in Florida. Disneyland? Rich old Jews from Long Island? Girls Gone Wild? Bah...

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47. Comment #157570 by wednesdayguevara on April 9, 2008 at 9:23 am

al-rawandi,

Ha! Good one. I haven't heard that before. One more and then it's back to work.

Where was the toothbrush invented?

Mississippi. If it had been invented anywhere else, it would have been called a teeth brush.

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48. Comment #157624 by robotaholic on April 9, 2008 at 10:50 am

How to you teach Intelligent Design anyway? I mean, all you can do is highlight some problems that evolution hasn't explained yet... and I say yet because you know science will resolve those also if just given time...

EDIT- also I must say I don't know of any either - they've already been solved or explained by science like the immune system evolution or the flagellum

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49. Comment #157637 by RSP on April 9, 2008 at 11:10 am

That's not discrimination, it's called doing your job. So many teachers in America have this attitude no one can judge if they're a good or bad teacher. What a load.

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50. Comment #157642 by Raiko on April 9, 2008 at 11:21 am

Oh my Dog! Someone talking about something that isn't American! How did that happen?

It was surely a more pertinent point being made about education that which side had the prettier uniforms in the American civil War, wouldn't you say?

Uh... hi there, random bad mood outburst?

I was wondering why the commenter thought of Germany in particular (as opposed to any other country), being that s/he's apparently not from Germany, but Ireland, and it hadn't come up before. I thought there was something to it, and being that I am German, I was interested in that.

If you'd rather be in a bad mood than have a conversation, go for it. Whatever makes you feel good. :)

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