Monday, April 28, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Girl, 17, killed in Iraq for loving a British soldier

by Independent

Thanks to SPS for the link.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/girl-17-killed-in-iraq-for-loving-a-british-soldier-816301.html

Girl, 17, killed in Iraq for loving a British soldier
By Sadie Gray

A 17-year-old Iraqi girl was murdered by her father in an honour killing after falling in love with a British soldier she met while working on an aid programme in Basra, it has been claimed.

Rand Abdel-Qader was stamped upon, suffocated and stabbed by her father, then given an unceremonious burial to emphasise her disgrace. Police released her father without charge two hours after his arrest.

"Not much can be done when we have an honour killing case," said Sergeant Ali Jabbar of Basra police. "You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws. The father has very good contacts inside the Basra government and it wasn't hard for him to be released and what he did to be forgotten."

A total of 47 young women died in honour killings in the city last year, Basra Security Committee told an investigation into Ms Abdel-Qader's case by The Observer. This is believed to be the only case of an honour killing involving a British soldier.

The MoD had no official advice for troops on how to behave with Iraqi women. The serviceman involved would not have been told that any relationship with her could put her life at risk, the paper said.

Ms Abdel-Qader, a student of English at Basra University, had struck up a friendship with a 22-year-old British infantryman known only as Paul five months before her murder in March.

She was believed to have last seen him in January, and the pair, whose relationship was innocent, only ever met while working at the aid station. The soldier was helping deliver relief to displaced families as part of his regimental duties. Ms Abdel-Qader was a volunteer worker.

On the day her father, Abdel-Qader Ali, was told of their friendship by a friend, he accused her of having an affair with a British soldier and killed her in front of his wife, Leila Hussain, and their sons.

"I screamed and called out for her two brothers so they could get their father away from her. But when he told them the reason, instead of saving her they helped him end her life," Ms Hussain said. She then left her husband and has since divorced him. She has received threats from her husband's family and is in hiding. She now works for an organisation campaigning against honour killings.

Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 | Permalink

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1. Comment #171404 by Chris Jackson on April 28, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Words alone cannot describe my anger at this.

Absolutely, wholly, completely, unimaginably fucking evil would be a start.

It is all too easy to look at stories like this and think "That only happens in Bat-shit crazy theocracies", but I recall several cases recently of "honour killings" in the UK.

It's a fucking disgrace.

Other Comments by Chris Jackson

2. Comment #171412 by Johnny O on April 28, 2008 at 1:29 pm

The MoD had no official advice for troops on how to behave with Iraqi women. The serviceman involved would not have been told that any relationship with her could put her life at risk, the paper said.

When I went to Iraq, during the first Gulf War, we were told about not getting 'involved' with local women as it would cause great offence to the local men and might cause tensions between the coalition troops. That however was in reference to a romantic involvement, this seems to be a totally inoccent working relationsip.

I will do some investigating with mates I have out there at the moment to see if they are aware of this incident.

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3. Comment #171421 by MrPickwick on April 28, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Rand Abdel-Qader was stamped upon, suffocated and stabbed by her father, then given an unceremonious burial to emphasise her disgrace. Police released her father without charge two hours after his arrest. "Not much can be done when we have an honour killing case," said Sergeant Ali Jabbar of Basra police. "You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws.

Operation Iraqi Freedom (Iraq's war codename) is really working! Rejoice, rejoice gracefully!

Other Comments by MrPickwick

4. Comment #171424 by headcold on April 28, 2008 at 1:35 pm

We should pull out the troops and turn that fucking country into a sea of glass.

Other Comments by headcold

5. Comment #171428 by koldito on April 28, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Thousands upon thousands of people have been killed in the Iraq war, and this fucker somehow managed to survive. The world is definitely an unfair place.

Other Comments by koldito

6. Comment #171445 by Heretic on April 28, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Sleep of Reason said:

it is an accepted part of their culture

Exactly! And this is why I don't want their fucking culture anywhere near my country. Yet, one gets called a 'racist' for saying any against 'multicultralism'. This whole situation makes me so angry.
(sorry if i've gone a little off topic)

Other Comments by Heretic

7. Comment #171446 by cam9976 on April 28, 2008 at 1:47 pm

But wait, Islam is a religion of peace!

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8. Comment #171466 by Jesus Jones on April 28, 2008 at 1:59 pm

She then left her husband and has since divorced him. She has received threats from her husband's family and is in hiding. She now works for an organisation campaigning against honour killings.

It is a shame that the mother only realised the depravity of her religion when the males in her family were demonstrating its true nature to her daughter.

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9. Comment #171469 by akado on April 28, 2008 at 2:00 pm

DAMN! >=
just the title alone pisses me off!

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10. Comment #171480 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 2:12 pm

headcold,

Turn the country into a field of glass. So instead of the occasional honor killing, everyone will be dead.

Not much better.

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11. Comment #171483 by Lagoliath on April 28, 2008 at 2:14 pm

"Thousands upon thousands of people have been killed in the Iraq war, and this fucker somehow managed to survive. The world is definitely an unfair place. "

Can't really help it when a large percentage of the population behave like this man.It's really amazing how people can look at things from a different perspective , one sees honor and is happy that such a bad seed was killed , the other sees murder and is disgusted.

Ethics is a very interesting topic.And it's ethics that'll truly kill the Middle East. It'll be slow , the ethics in such societies haven't changed for hundred of years.And from the look of it , they never will.

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12. Comment #171486 by Wosret on April 28, 2008 at 2:16 pm

This is beyond disgusting. This needs to be stopped...it just needs to be stopped. Women are merely property and sex slaves to islam, who can be beaten, raped, and murdered legally. To say they are second class citizens would be a lie, they aren't citizens at all. They aren't considered people.

These are the people we let become members of a group dedicated to human rights, people that don't consider half the human species to qualify. What's going on? How can any of this be? Asking why this is done, and who would do it is one thing, you say that kind of thing because you expect it is rare...but to think of whole cultures where it is perfectly fine to do...it is not something I can even begin to make sense of...

It makes me wonder if there is something fundamentally wrong with people, that people can do those sorts of things, while the rest of us sit by...and do nothing.

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13. Comment #171487 by phil rimmer on April 28, 2008 at 2:17 pm

I am more and more convinced that a solution to a greater part of the world's ills lies in the hands of women. If all food aid, military budgets, debt relief etc. were redirected to the single end of seeing women given access to education where it has been denied, then change would happen very quickly indeed.

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14. Comment #171488 by Bonzai on April 28, 2008 at 2:17 pm

I don't know if this is a typical honour killing case though, Iraq is under occupation.Depending on religion and tribes, the British might be seen as the enemy. Imagine a French woman who had an affair with a German soldier during WWII.

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15. Comment #171491 by EeekiE on April 28, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Artificial selection of submissive religious women in action.

I guess women, in what ever form, even daugthers, are nothing more than property in a Muslim society.

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16. Comment #171492 by phil rimmer on April 28, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Bonzai

the pair, whose relationship was innocent, only ever met while working at the aid station.

Get a grip man!

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17. Comment #171497 by mordacious1 on April 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Bastards. Sometimes I wish there was a hell, just for religious morons.

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18. Comment #171498 by Bonzai on April 28, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Phil Rimmer,

Sorry, didn't read the whole thing.

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19. Comment #171506 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 2:26 pm

Mitchell,

Your entire post is a generalized, racist rant... "These people". Most Muslims in the world treat their wives just fine. And many women enjoy good lives.

There were 47 honor killings in a city with a population of 1.7 million. Take a comparable US city and how many women are murdered by their husbands. Quite a few.

No one will debate the language of the verses on women, that is manifest, but to wield such a broad brush in your angry rant is no use either.

What do you propose we do, since "sitting by" digusts you?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

20. Comment #171512 by Wosret on April 28, 2008 at 2:28 pm

Well there wasn't even an affair, but that would still hardly be worthy of stomping her to death by her family.

Can you even think of a scenerio where someone's family would partake in stomping them to death in an enlightened secular country? IT didn't mention how many brothers, but presumably at least 2, that is 3 family members stomping another one to death.

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21. Comment #171517 by Kyrie Eleison on April 28, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Nature abhors a vaccum. If atheists get their wish of wiping out Christianity, Islam will replace it, not atheism. It matters not to Islam how smart atheists are; it is all about what Allah thinks.

"The great body of the party are commonly intoxicated with the imaginary beauty of this ideal system, of which they have no experience, but which has been represented to them in all the most dazzling colours in which the eloquence of their leaders could paint it." Smith, Adam. The Theory of Moral Sentiments (Oxford, 1976 ed.), 232.

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22. Comment #171519 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 2:31 pm

CHILDREN! ANIMALS! SUB HUMANS! HUMAN FILTH!

Why don't you take your racism elsewhere.

No one really wants to read your illogical generalizations here. You are disgusting.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

23. Comment #171523 by Geoff on April 28, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Ah, the absolute morality of religion; where would we be without it?

I'd say more, but really, only someone like Diacanu could properly do it justice.

Other Comments by Geoff

24. Comment #171525 by beelzebub on April 28, 2008 at 2:34 pm

As with al-rawandi, I find this whole commentary has decended into race-hate. This issue runs across race and religion, it is a cultural issue - ignorant, brutal and nasty, yes, but not the realm of any one religion or people. From an article on the BBC's web-site:

"Honour killing, Mr Gidoomal continues, is not a religious issue.
None of the world's major religions condone honour-related crimes. But those who are guilty have sometimes tried to justify their actions on religious grounds.
"Honour crime happens across the board in the Asian community," insists Mr Gidoomal. "People try to blame Muslim, Hindus or Sikhs but it tends to happen in families where there are the strongest ties and expectations. It's a very strong cultural issue.""

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25. Comment #171526 by Cairnarvon on April 28, 2008 at 2:34 pm

headcold:
We should pull out the troops and turn that fucking country into a sea of glass.

What, kill the innocents ourselves before anyone else can? What the fuck is wrong with you? If anything, you're even more disgusting than this father is.

al-rawandi:
Most Muslims in the world treat their wives just fine.

Bullshit.
Most Muslims aren't as insane as this guy, and most Muslim women go their whole life without being murdered by their husbands, that's true, but there can be no doubt that on the whole, Muslim women have far fewer rights and freedoms than Western women, even if they're living in Western societies.

Denying a very real problem exists just because someone else exaggerates isn't going to earn you tolerance points. It's only going to perpetuate it.

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26. Comment #171529 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 2:37 pm

bunny,

You didn't mention anyone in particular. You only ever mentioned Iraq in a general sense. Thus your racist outburst must be read in the same sense.

Although you may be an angy feminist, you also happen to be spewing racist nonsense. So don't try to back track now. Go post on some other site, you are only providing fodder for the theists that seek to paint atheists as Nazis and racists.

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27. Comment #171531 by neptunescovenent on April 28, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Lol...Islam is stupid, in essence its our fault for stifling them during the european colonisation.

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28. Comment #171532 by Wosret on April 28, 2008 at 2:38 pm

(*Sigh*) I almost don't want to dignify your idiocy with a reponse, but I will give you one, and only one, then you can call me whatever you like Al.

These people as in the ones that support soceities that allow things like that to happen.

"most muslims" so the generalisations are fine when you're doing it eh?

Please do compare these cities, and then tell me how many confessed murderers of their daughters they let go every year.

Well if you weren't such an idiot, you would have realised, that in context I was saying that there is something wrong with us all us for letting it happen. I think that everyone should not allow such things to happen, of course including arabs. Unlike you, I was not excluding them when I said "us".

Should being the important word, I was stressing how I feel there is something wrong with us, as a species that we would allow this to occure.

This will be my last response to you again. I'm not going to explain the obvious every time you take something to mean something it clearly did not.

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29. Comment #171534 by Elles on April 28, 2008 at 2:39 pm

"You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws."

I'm too angered at this Sergeant Ali Jabbar guy to make an intellectual retort.

Somehow, I don't know how, I'm going to run up to him and shout "piss off!" in his face, then throw dung hysterically.

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30. Comment #171535 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Cairnarvorn,

Well then you can drop the superiority act. Women get shit in every culture, America and UK included. True they live better, without a doubt, but what is true is that women are subjected to abuse in the west. It is simply justified on different grounds.

I don't know a Muslim who hits his wife. Not one. That includes many Saudis, Kuwaitis, Emirates, and others... In their home countries.

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31. Comment #171537 by Bonzai on April 28, 2008 at 2:41 pm

beelzebub

"Honour killing, Mr Gidoomal continues, is not a religious issue.
None of the world's major religions condone honour-related crimes. But those who are guilty have sometimes tried to justify their actions on religious grounds.
"Honour crime happens across the board in the Asian community," insists Mr Gidoomal. "People try to blame Muslim, Hindus or Sikhs but it tends to happen in families where there are the strongest ties and expectations. It's a very strong cultural issue.""

It is true that mainstream Islamic scholars are against honour killing, but not for the reason that Mr. Godoomal may think. Honour killing is un-Islamic because it usurps the proper authority to hand down death sentences, not because it has a more tolerant attitude towards "crimes against honour", It would be wrong for a Muslim to kill his daughter who has an affair, she should be stoned on the order of a Sharia court.

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32. Comment #171539 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 2:42 pm

MItchell,

So what should we do? You skipped that.

And if I was caught in a racist rant, I too would attempt to flip it around on my accuser. Your anger in response well exceeded the tone of my original post. Why so angry if I am simply wrong? Go back to your cartoons.

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33. Comment #171542 by devolve on April 28, 2008 at 2:47 pm

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yuuje5

To borrow from Sam Harris a bit, "where are the Tibetan Buddhist honor killings?"

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34. Comment #171543 by emmet on April 28, 2008 at 2:47 pm

For FSM's sake, people, get a grip! It's horrifying and disgusting and the perpetrators deserve to be punished, but turn that fucking country into a sea of glass? sub humans? human filth?

I understand the anger and frustration, but this not the language of rational moral people! I'm less disturbed by the fact that people can murder one of their family and get away with it than by members of the reality-based community calling for genocide in response.

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35. Comment #171544 by Podaar on April 28, 2008 at 2:48 pm

Comment #171535 by al-rawandi

I don't know a Muslim who hits his wife. Not one. That includes many Saudis, Kuwaitis, Emirates, and others... In their home countries.

Al, We are all lead to believe (in the West) that it is routine that men don't allow freedoms to their wives, daughters and sisters. You say none of the Muslim men you know hit their wives; do they limit them in other ways?

I'm not trying to provoke, just asking because you seem to have a great deal of personal first hand knowledge and I'm wondering how much we read (Ayaan Ali for example) is exaggerated (in your opinion).

-- Gregg

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36. Comment #171546 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 2:52 pm

Bunny,

I was attempting to counteract your wild generalizations of Iraqis.

I didn't deny there was a problem... Perhaps you may have chanced upon my comment about the abuse of women being sanctioned in the cannonical texts themselves. And if you had been around in other discussions you would have seen my critique of everything foul and odious about Islam and many Muslims.

Righteous anger... There is a dangerous term. You are welcome to be mad, I find this disgusting as well. I don't think it fair to shoot off generalizations about Iraq in the same breath as "Filthy" and "Sub human".

I never excused poor treatment of women anywhere. Someone else had said that the west was "so much better". Which is true, but doesn't mean that women in the west don't get a tough time too.

But your post absolutely speaks for itself. It is a Christopher Hitchens "simply underline" moment.

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37. Comment #171550 by phil rimmer on April 28, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Al,

I find your "racist" slur against Bunny totally mystifying.

She said-

Or maybe we should never never never leave until iraq punishes men like this or men like this evolve the basic human desire not to KILL THEYRE OWN CHILDREN! ANIMALS! SUB HUMANS! HUMAN FILTH!

or men like this evolve the basic human desire not to KILL THEYRE OWN CHILDREN! ANIMALS! SUB HUMANS! HUMAN FILTH!

Men like this.. [are]..ANIMALS!

Not Iraqis in general.

Claim not proved.

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38. Comment #171551 by mdowe on April 28, 2008 at 2:58 pm

And when a particular British soldier 'accidentily' sprays a particular Iraqi civilian with an exceptionally large number of assault rifle rounds, I guess I won't lose much sleep over the outrage, or wonder about his motivations.

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39. Comment #171552 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Podaar,

I do know plenty of Muslims who speak about other Muslims they know limiting their wives.

Part of the problem in judging is that the Saudis I know, live in Saudi Arabia. There are state laws that restrict women. However, most of them send the educated ones (which are in my circle) send their daughters for western education.

Of course there is a double standard when it comes to dating, which is largely due to Arab culture. And it doesn't take much insight (maybe for some posters here it does) to realize that Islam is a religionized form of Arab ethos.

Women get it rough in the Muslim world, no doubt. But when a lot of those people are relocated to the west and educated, it generally molifies the problem.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali lied about her situation several times in regards to her arrival in Europe, arranged marriage, and several other things as well. I wouldn't doubt her stories unless I had some evidence she lied there too. Somalia is one of the worst places for women. As is the Congo, and several other non-Muslim African countries.

So I am not arguing that Islam DOESN'T teach violence or oppression of women, it clearly does. What I am saying is racist generalizations won't be much better.

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40. Comment #171553 by akado on April 28, 2008 at 2:59 pm

sheesh al are you here just to twist everyones words and argue with what everyone is saying?

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41. Comment #171554 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 3:01 pm

phil rimmer,

That is not what I recall reading. I should have block quoted, then I could be sure. Oh well, we wait for bunny to let us know if she edited the post to make it less general, or if I simply misread it.

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42. Comment #171555 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 3:03 pm

akado,

I try to push people on their ideas, yes. Are you going to report me?

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43. Comment #171559 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 3:07 pm

Yes, if you did not edit the post, I will apologize and remove my posts if you so wish.

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44. Comment #171560 by Newk on April 28, 2008 at 3:09 pm

Al-Rawandi.

If you take a few seconds to read bunnyboilers message again you should be able to notice that there was no generalisation of Iraqi's or Muslims.. Only the Generalasation or individuals that commits such act's as she discribed...

Other Comments by Newk

45. Comment #171561 by Kyrie Eleison on April 28, 2008 at 3:09 pm

Is the pot not calling the kettle black here. We don't kill women for having relationships our government doesn't approve of: Never! We just take their children for these violations.

"Hitting" will get a spouse arrested. Adultery and infecting one's spouse with STDs and emotionally tramatizing them for life is fine. But polygamy is only tolerated when it is either "serial" or done in secret.

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46. Comment #171562 by Wosret on April 28, 2008 at 3:10 pm

I wanna say that I am in no way a lunatic that would call for violence towards anyone. I in no way have ever supported any of the Iraq stuff at all, being Canadian, that has of course been a majority opinion they entire time, nor do I think that enlightenment, freedom, or emancipation can be forced on anyone.

I think that the only reasonable way to do anything to attempt to win a war of ideas. It is even hard to suggest economic santions because these countries have their citizens held hostage, and it would result in starvation, and other related problems.

It is disgusting that this happens, and I think that there is clearly something wrong with us that we are capable of such things, so I am not optomistic about our ability to wipe such behaviour off the earth. I do hope that, and think it is possible as many countries around the world attest to, that if we can win a battle of ideas, we can win over the majority, then a change from within can occure, and such people will be forced to the fringe of their societies, like they are in ours, and will not get away with such blatant crimes against human rights, and murder.

The last thing we can do is give an inch in this war of ideas, and I think that allowing countries that do did not adhere to established basic human rights to join the organization was a huge mistake, and it has indeed caused it's distruction.

Pretending that we are on an equal moral ground with people that support such barbaric traditions and ideas for fear of sounding racist, is itself racist. Pretending that they can be excused for such actions, and don't require meeting the moral standards set by the free world, because they are another race, it itself racist. Bring race into it at all, when it is clearly a non-issue and was not alluded to by anyone, is itself racist.

It doesn't matter if your racism is in favor of the race, or against, it's still discriminating based on race.

Other Comments by Wosret

47. Comment #171565 by akado on April 28, 2008 at 3:12 pm

No al but what you are doing is pointless.
I will not condone in this sensless arguement no longer but no one hjas really said anything out of context till you put it as such.
the fact is that this man killed his daughter because oif culture which their culture is based ga good bit upon religion which allowed this man to walk away free and to him being that which he is as bunny put it.
basiclly a low human for even using this to kill his daughter.
muslims and americans wife and daughter murders might be about the same or varied I really do not know but the fact here is that he was seen inocent and allowed to comtinue living normal because of the culture and religious aspects of his lifre and country whcih is the hwole point of this article.
to show still that religion is filth, watse and barrier in our world and no one has said sanything to me that seemed needed to be taken hold to and argued upon except your out of place outburst in disageeing with them.....

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48. Comment #171566 by headcold on April 28, 2008 at 3:12 pm

Al-rawandi, I'll stop thinking that the entire country should be nuked when everyone in the neighborhood of that murderer drags him out into the street and uses him as an example to show that honor killings are never ever permitted.

What's the other option? We wait 100 years and 3000 more honor killings for the Middle East to decide that instead of murdering your daughter for disgracing the family, instead you should just tie her up outside and let the neighbors rape her? And then another 100 years later, they'll say, 'hey, rape is almost always bad.' Instead when the daughter disgraces the family they will just cut off her ears so no man will find her attractive.

I don't actually think we should nuke the place. I use it purposefully as a wake-up generalization to say that we shouldn't be invading Iraq to remove an evil dictator. We should bomb them up to the 18th century, and then we'll educate them up to the 21st.

Offended again? I'll inspire anger and you inspire fair mindedness. I have no power and neither do you so we both end up accomplishing nothing. My comments reflect my emotional outrage and my gut feelings. When it comes times to act on something, I'll remove my emotions and think logically. Until then, allow me be as angry and unsympathetic as I want at the fact that these cavemen, their cavemen neighbors, and the cavemen countries next door to them are just dandy with strangling daughters.

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49. Comment #171567 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 3:12 pm

Pretending that they can be excused for such actions, and don't require meeting the moral standards set by the free world, because they are another race, it itself racist. Bring race into it at all, when it is clearly a non-issue and was not alluded to by anyone, is itself racist.

The people in the free world have done some nasty things to people too. Perhaps the sanctions on Iraq which killed 4,500 children per month might count. Is that the kind of repect for human rights you were speaking of, or is there some other standard?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

50. Comment #171569 by al-rawandi on April 28, 2008 at 3:16 pm

akado,

I don't disagree with that post. I don't see the problem. I just said we should be very specific, and we should recognize that there are decent people in Iraq trying to lead decent lives, even if a minority. Take the man's wife. She left him and began working to solve the problem. Applause for her.

headcold,

Al-rawandi, I'll stop thinking that the entire country should be nuked when everyone in the neighborhood of that murderer drags him out into the street and uses him as an example to show that honor killings are never ever permitted.

That is a wonderful notion of justice you have. Like in Saudi, where they amputate arms of thieves. Less theft, I will say that much.

I don't actually think we should nuke the place. I use it purposefully as a wake-up generalization to say that we shouldn't be invading Iraq to remove an evil dictator. We should bomb them up to the 18th century, and then we'll educate them up to the 21st.

Just contradicted your first paragraph.

My comments reflect my emotional outrage and my gut feelings. When it comes times to act on something, I'll remove my emotions and think logically. Until then, allow me be as angry and unsympathetic as I want at the fact that these cavemen, their cavemen neighbors, and the cavemen countries next door to them are just dandy with strangling daughters.

Where is my highlighter?

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