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Churchgoing on its knees as Christianity falls out of favour

by Times Online

Thanks to AdrianB for the link.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3890080.ece

Churchgoing on its knees as Christianity falls out of favour

Church attendance in Britain is declining so fast that the number of regular churchgoers will be fewer than those attending mosques within a generation, research published today suggests.

The fall - from the four million people who attend church at least once a month today - means that the Church of England, Catholicism and other denominations will become financially unviable. A lack of funds from the collection plate to support the Christian infrastructure, including church upkeep and ministers' pay and pensions, will force church closures as ageing congregations die.

In contrast, the number of actively religious Muslims will have increased from about one million today to 1.96 million in 2035.

According to Religious Trends, a comprehensive statistical analysis of religious practice in Britain, published by Christian Research, even Hindus will come close to outnumbering churchgoers within a generation. The forecast to 2050 shows churchgoing in Britain declining to 899,000 while the active Hindu population, now at nearly 400,000, will have more than doubled to 855,000. By 2050 there will be 2,660,000 active Muslims in Britain - nearly three times the number of Sunday churchgoers.

The research is based on analysis of membership and attendance of all the religious bodies in Britain, including a church census in 2005.

Coming just months after the Archbishop of Canterbury suggested that the introduction of aspects of sharia into British law was unavoidable, the report is likely to fuel calls for the disestablishment of the Church of England.

Martin Salter, the Labour MP for Reading West and a member of Reading inter-faith group, said: "I think all faiths could be treated equally under our constitution. These figures demonstrate the absurdity of favouring one brand of Christianity over other parts of the Christian faith and the many other religions that grace our shores."

Hazel Blears, the Communities Secretary with responsibility for community cohesion, said: "We will look at these findings very closely. Britain is a secular democracy with a strong Christian tradition but many faiths have a home in Britain."

The report makes it clear that Christianity is becoming a minority religion. It also reflects the changing nature of religious practice worldwide and will further aid the stated aim of the Prince of Wales who, on his Coronation, hopes to become Defender of Faith rather than Defender of the Faith.

Only in the large, evangelical churches of the Baptist and independent denominations is there resistance to the trend, but many of these churches also show some decline. One small area of growth is in Northern Ireland, where the enthusiasm of Pentecostals and other independents has led to a slight increase in numbers of churches - a trend expected to continue to 2050. The three growing denominations are the Orthodox, Pentecostals and smaller denominations, all dependent to a degree on immigration.

The crisis is particularly acute for Methodists and Presbyterians, as many worshippers are aged over 65. The report predicts that these churches might well have merged with others by 2030. "The primary cause of the decrease in attendance is that people are simply dying off," the report says.

By 2050 there will be just 3,600 churchgoing Methodists left in Britain, Christian Research predicts. Anglicans will be down to 87,800, Catholics to 101,700, Presbyterians to 4,400, Baptists to 123,000 and independents to 168,000.

The national breakdown shows similar declines across England, Wales and Scotland. Churchgoing across all denominations in England will fall from about 3 million today to about 700,000 in 2050. In Wales it will tumble from 200,000 to 42,000 and in Scotland, from 550,000 to 140,000. The figures take into account the recent boost to Catholicism from the number of Polish immigrants to Britain, particularly in Scotland.

The report predicts that by 2030, when Dr Rowan Williams's successor as Archbishop of Cantebury will be approaching retirement, there could be just 350,000 people attending just 10,000 Anglican churches, with an average of 35 worshippers each. The next Archbishop after that could find his position "totally nonviable", the report says, with just 180,000 worshippers in 6,000 churches by 2040.

David Voas, a professor of population studies at the Institute for Social Change at the University of Manchester, said: "The difficulty is in retaining the children who have churchgoing parents. So long as churchgoing is something that gets you laughed at, so long as there is a social stigma attached to being a churchgoing young person, it will be difficult to reverse the trend." He said that young Muslims operated in a different environment. "Being religious is a way that you show you are different, that you are proud of your heritage. One of the ways young Muslims assert their identity is by being more observant than their parents."

The Church of England disputed the forecasts last night. Lynda Barley, its head of research, said: "These statistics represent a partial picture of religious trends today. In recent years church life has significantly diversified so these traditional statistics are less and less meaningful in isolation.

"There are more than 1.7 million people worshipping in a Church of England church or cathedral each month, a figure that is 30 per cent higher [than the Sunday attendance figure used by Christian Research] and has remained stable since 2000. We have no reason to believe that this will drop significantly."

— Hundreds of churches are protesting at soaring water bills, with some parishes facing increases of up to 1,300 per cent. Senior churchmen from the Church of England, Methodist and other churches are meeting officials from Ofwat, the industry regulator, to argue their case against the charges today.
Churchgoing on its knees as Christianity falls out of favour

Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

Posted: Thursday, May 8, 2008 | Permalink

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1. Comment #177264 by robotaholic on May 8, 2008 at 8:41 pm

if we're here in 2050 i'll be amazed

Other Comments by robotaholic

2. Comment #177268 by Goldy on May 8, 2008 at 8:45 pm

Why worry. If recent local election results are anything to go by, I dare say things might get a bit uncomfortable for many who don't practise the local religion.
Besides, religon is for the backward and primitive. Which would rather be? :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

3. Comment #177272 by dragonfirematrix on May 8, 2008 at 8:52 pm

Why is Islam increasing?

Other Comments by dragonfirematrix

4. Comment #177275 by robotaholic on May 8, 2008 at 8:57 pm

Something about a death cult is enticing I guess...

Other Comments by robotaholic

5. Comment #177277 by dr joneZ on May 8, 2008 at 9:02 pm

The way they will have to organise it in the near future will have to be as follows: religion is something you do at home with the shutters closed and the curtains drawn and only ever between consenting adults. Children under the age of 18 are not to practise religion. Young people caught with Bibles, Qu'ran, Torah etc. will be subject to an age check by police.

As each walking-frame faith-head departs the planet we should be yelling "One more down! 1.2 billion to go!"

Other Comments by dr joneZ

6. Comment #177285 by RightWingAtheist on May 8, 2008 at 9:18 pm

dragonfirematrix asked
>> "Why is Islam increasing?"

I think a lot of it is immigration.

Other Comments by RightWingAtheist

7. Comment #177286 by MPhil on May 8, 2008 at 9:23 pm

The prevalence of Islam in western civilisation is increasing mainly because of the fact that Muslims have far more children than non-muslims... and yes, because of immigration, which in itself isn't a bad thing.

Other Comments by MPhil

8. Comment #177294 by Andrew Stich on May 8, 2008 at 9:57 pm

Very interesting and surprising. Good point, MPhil, and I'm sure that you're right, but there must be some other cultural factors as to why Christianity is losing popularity so fast in Britain. Could it partially stem from the fact that England is a relatively secular nation wherein the natives are mostly Christian, and the Muslims tend to have families originating (in the recent past) in more religiously-intensive countries in the Middle-East, thereby making the Muslims on average more fundamenalist and therefore more likely to go to Church/Mosque ( and have more influence per person) than the Christians?

But yeah, of course, the number of Muslims is rising at a rate much faster than the number of Christians.

Other Comments by Andrew Stich

9. Comment #177295 by Andrew Stich on May 8, 2008 at 10:01 pm

I couldn't deduce much, though, seeing as how I'm not British. I can't say anything on the level of immigration, or what the difference is for rate of birth for Christians and Muslims in the UK.

Other Comments by Andrew Stich

10. Comment #177296 by fontor on May 8, 2008 at 10:05 pm

"Being religious is a way that you show you are different, that you are proud of your heritage. One of the ways young Muslims assert their identity is by being more observant than their parents."

This, for me, was the most depressing part of the article.

Sometimes I think that the only way to get rid of the religion memes is for all the believers to... well... die out. I hate saying it that way. Maybe I should say it'll happen through 'attrition' instead. Better to help them deconvert, of course. But it's awfully hard, the longer you go.

Sure, it's sad when people go. But an upside is that we get better memes, and I can't say I'm sorry to see the process happening.

Other Comments by fontor

11. Comment #177299 by MPhil on May 8, 2008 at 10:15 pm

I wasn't trying to explain why Christianity is losing popularity, just why the percentage of Muslims is rising.

But if I was to try and give an answer to that - I would say it's because, just like in Sweden and Denmark (and Germany, but less so) - and in direct, stark contrast to the US, religion isn't free enterprise. It's a fixed social institution, linked with the government, it's in some way official.

Where religion is free market enterprise, there will be advertising, doing everything to get people to "buy" your "product" - including brainwashing etc (which is what advertising does, but in a slightly different way).

That's just one factor, but I think it's an important one. The prevalence of religious faith as a crutch, as a major pillar of personal life is also one. And I think it has to do with the above. Since in the UK, Denmark, Sweden, (Netherlands in general) it was and is somehow official, it was taken as a given, and something you have to keep sacred, to fight for and do destroy everything that threatens your personal faith, including indoctrinating your children as strongly as possible.

Of course I could be entirely wrong, but it seems to be a valid explanation to me.

Other Comments by MPhil

12. Comment #177300 by MPhil on May 8, 2008 at 10:16 pm

fontor,

I hope you're not saying we need to employ means to make them die out.

Other Comments by MPhil

13. Comment #177301 by mordacious1 on May 8, 2008 at 10:17 pm

The two islamic countries with nuclear weopons are: Pakistan and GREAT BRITAIN?

So the way we beat these bastards here in America should be to increase the price of their water. Never thought of that. You can live without modern conveniences but not without WATER! How can you baptize so many people if you don't have an abundance of free water? Cool.

Other Comments by mordacious1

14. Comment #177302 by Roy_H on May 8, 2008 at 10:20 pm

Well at least the indigenous population seems to be 'growing up' at long last.

Other Comments by Roy_H

15. Comment #177304 by Robert Maynard on May 8, 2008 at 10:28 pm

I guess it's just important to keep in mind that trends are highly uncertain projections based on current momentum.
I also found the passage about young people practicing Islam pretty depressing too, but ultimately, just look at the numbers.
1.96 million Muslims today, in a country of 58.8 million people. 2.6 million in 2050?
Oooga-booga-boo! I'm so scared!

[hopefully no one stumbles on this comment in 50 years when The United Caliphate rules the planet with an iron fist and is in the process of systematically erasing history, else they might get a chuckle] :P

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

16. Comment #177306 by Diacanu on May 8, 2008 at 10:43 pm

MPhil-

I hope you're not saying we need to employ means to make them die out.

Me, I'll just pray for it really hard.
B-)
;-)

Other Comments by Diacanu

17. Comment #177309 by MPhil on May 8, 2008 at 10:50 pm

If ever the Kaaba should be physically destroyed, I bet their theology will just shift to say that what the angels are protecting is still there... it's in fact the non-physical, spiritual Kaaba.

:)

Other Comments by MPhil

18. Comment #177324 by Fouad Boussetta on May 8, 2008 at 11:15 pm

"So long as churchgoing is something that gets you laughed at, so long as there is a social stigma attached to being a churchgoing young person, it will be difficult to reverse the trend."
Yes, ridicule may be the best weapon to phase out religion, more so than education. When the religious feel embarrassed or ashamed of their beliefs or practices, they will keep quiet and stop interfering with the lives of everyone else.

Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta

19. Comment #177335 by Barry Pearson on May 8, 2008 at 11:41 pm

PETITION:

There is a "10 Downing Street petition" calling for the disestablishment of the Church of England.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/churchofengland/

It closes 11 May 2008!

It is only open to UK citizens and ex-pats. I've just discovered it and signed it. Realistically, such petitions make little or no difference - Jeremy Clarkson isn't Prime Minister (yet).

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

20. Comment #177340 by Layla Nasreddin on May 9, 2008 at 12:09 am

If ever the Kaaba should be physically destroyed, I bet their theology will just shift to say that what the angels are protecting is still there... it's in fact the non-physical, spiritual Kaaba.

Actually, the Kaaba has already been destroyed/demolished more than once since the time of Muhammad, during the civil wars in the early centuries of Islam; it was simply rebuilt.

(It is interesting to note just how many civil wars there were in the first 120 years of Islam's existence, each side hell-bent on gaining control of Islam's rapidly-expanding empire...so much for "all Muslims are brothers!")

Anyway, enough of this foul talk of nuclear weapons and Mecca, she said crossly...

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

21. Comment #177341 by riki on May 9, 2008 at 12:18 am

Personally I think immigration policies (for any country) should have stops and checks to ensure some degree of integration.

Other Comments by riki

22. Comment #177347 by Styrer- on May 9, 2008 at 12:43 am

I don't think we are going to win this one, folks.

The faithoholics are just too numerous. Their numbers are increasing all the time.

Muslim numbers are increasing as we speak, more than any idea on the planet.

It's just a matter of time.

What's the fucking point in fighting it anymore.

Wish I knew where Steve Zara's watering hole was. I'd stand the first ten.

Waste of fucking effort.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

23. Comment #177349 by DamnDirtyApe on May 9, 2008 at 1:00 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_England_from_the_2001_United_Kingdom_census#Religion

Do not worry.

3% Muslim, 15% NONE.

That's back in 2001. Before 9/11, before Bush's mania really took off, and before this movement. I really believe that 15% figure will skyrocket. I'd hope for something closer to 30%.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

24. Comment #177351 by Rawhard Dickins on May 9, 2008 at 1:01 am

Styrer

Don't give up mate!

Humanity is in it's adolescent phase (childhood was about 2000 years ago).

It just takes time and education and a lot more straight talking.

Other Comments by Rawhard Dickins

25. Comment #177358 by Naug on May 9, 2008 at 1:14 am

Dragonfirematrix said:
Why is Islam increasing?

----

Because children tend to get their religion from their parents. Not rocket science :>

Other Comments by Naug

26. Comment #177361 by hungarianelephant on May 9, 2008 at 1:21 am

I enjoyed this bit:

The Church of England disputed the forecasts last night. Lynda Barley, its head of research, said: "These statistics represent a partial picture of religious trends today. In recent years church life has significantly diversified so these traditional statistics are less and less meaningful in isolation.

Huh? What kind of management consultant gobledegook is that? Don't look at the figures, folks. It doesn't matter that people aren't coming to church, because they do ... er ... lots of other religious stuff. What do you mean, "what exactly"? It's diversified, I tell you. Now please leave me alone. I'm busy trying to leverage our customer focussed employees to deliver shareholder value.

"There are more than 1.7 million people worshipping in a Church of England church or cathedral each month, a figure that is 30 per cent higher [than the Sunday attendance figure used by Christian Research] and has remained stable since 2000. We have no reason to believe that this will drop significantly."

And I'm absolutely not going to tell you how we come to those figures. Well alright, we do a headcount. No, we don't know that those are 1.7 million different people. Yes, I suppose it's possible that we're counting people who come every week 4 times. Well, 8 times if they come twice. Look, it's the same way that airports count passenger numbers, alright? Please shut up.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

27. Comment #177366 by PJG on May 9, 2008 at 1:38 am

Martin Salter, the Labour MP for Reading West and a member of Reading inter-faith group, said: "I think all faiths could be treated equally under our constitution. These figures demonstrate the absurdity of favouring one brand of Christianity over other parts of the Christian faith and the many other religions that grace our shores."

I TOTALLY agree with this statement - all faiths should be treated equally.

All faiths/religious institutions should receive equal...

a) Respect
b) Financial support (including to faith schools)
c) Tax exemptions
d) Allowances (of any sort)

In all cases, the amount should be ZERO.

Other Comments by PJG

28. Comment #177371 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 9, 2008 at 1:46 am

15. Comment #177304 by Robert Maynard on May 8, 2008 at 10:28 pm
1.96 million Muslims today, in a country of 58.8 million people. 2.6 million in 2050?
Oooga-booga-boo! I'm so scared!

I share your terror Robert, these numbers are absolutely chilling!! Thank goodness Fanusi and other similarly concerned citizens are stridently sounding the alarm at every opportunity, people need to be warned of this pending apocalypse!

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

29. Comment #177373 by Quetzalcoatl on May 9, 2008 at 1:47 am

He said that young Muslims operated in a different environment. "Being religious is a way that you show you are different, that you are proud of your heritage. One of the ways young Muslims assert their identity is by being more observant than their parents

This is interesting. It could be possible that the next generation of Muslims might assert their identities by being less observant than their parents.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

30. Comment #177375 by Barry Pearson on May 9, 2008 at 1:50 am

DamnDirtyApe said: I really believe that 15% figure will skyrocket. I'd hope for something closer to 30%.

A Eurobarometer survey in 2005 showed for the UK:
"I believe in God": 38%.
"I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force": 40%.
"I don't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force": 20%.
(Don't know: 2%).

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf
See pages 9, 10.

See also the latest "Social Trends":
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_social/Social_Trends38/Social_Trends_38.pdf
Page 190 repeats the 38% from the Eurobarometer.

38%! That is something for religious people to ponder. Just as that 40% is something for all of us to ponder.

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

31. Comment #177378 by Barry Pearson on May 9, 2008 at 1:56 am

PJG said: All faiths/religious institutions should receive equal.... In all cases, the amount should be ZERO.

In case it is useful, here is the letter I sent to my MP, and also to his party leader (atheist Nick Clegg).
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/gods/letter1.htm

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

32. Comment #177382 by Barry Pearson on May 9, 2008 at 2:02 am

Brian English said: True, but the planet can't handle much more people. This is sad to say, but the many poor muslims in poor countries will be doing all they can to survive in the not too distant future.....

It is likely that in future it will be judged that the 2 biggest obstacles to getting the world's population under control to relieve climate change were Islam and Catholicism.

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

33. Comment #177384 by Styrer- on May 9, 2008 at 2:04 am

Comment #177351 by Rawhard Dickins on May 9, 2008 at 1:01 am

Styrer

Don't give up mate!

Humanity is in it's adolescent phase (childhood was about 2000 years ago).

It just takes time and education and a lot more straight talking.

Thanks, Rawhard.

Just feeling a bit blue at the moment. I'd just shown the 'child preacher' (baby bible bashers) vid here to my wife, at which we both had a good fucking cry.

This thread's topic just jumped on top of me.

Will do better, mate. Cheers.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

34. Comment #177385 by Logicel on May 9, 2008 at 2:05 am

Great comment, Hungarian Eggplant, #28!

As long as the throngs leaving Christianity do not join Islam, I think this report is quite cheering actually. Though it is understandable that growing numbers of unbelievers are not explicitly emphasized in a religious report, those numbers are there, present with their ability to challenge the increasing numbers of practitioners of Islam.

Other Comments by Logicel

35. Comment #177387 by Logicel on May 9, 2008 at 2:11 am

fontor wrote: Sure, it's sad when people go. But an upside is that we get better memes, and I can't say I'm sorry to see the process happening.
____

Yes, it is a very bitter/sweet process. The generation who vanquished the Nazis accomplished a great feat, however, that was the generation that my own fought against in the sixties because of their racism, sexism, and homophobia.

Other Comments by Logicel

36. Comment #177391 by RichardofYork on May 9, 2008 at 2:22 am

Im not sure dissolving the church of england is a good idea. Look at America, its religious plasticity ensures their own subjective christianity is believed as much as the next persons , maybe a national definition of "The Faith" holds some religites back a little??

Other Comments by RichardofYork

37. Comment #177394 by PJG on May 9, 2008 at 2:42 am

Barry Pearson

Your letter:

* Thumbs up *

Other Comments by PJG

38. Comment #177403 by hungarianelephant on May 9, 2008 at 3:30 am

Thanks Logicel, but ... I'm an eggplant? Think I'd better change my avatar to something in aubergine.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

39. Comment #177404 by hungarianelephant on May 9, 2008 at 3:32 am

I'm not sure how I missed this, but why exactly does the C of E need a "head of research"? Can't they just ask the sky-bloke? I mean, he's supposed to be omniscient, right?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

40. Comment #177406 by j.mills on May 9, 2008 at 3:34 am

the Prince of Wales who, on his Coronation, hopes to become Defender of Faith rather than Defender of the Faith.

This is deeply weird. Surely faith in 30 million Hindu deities is as threatening to Christianity as atheism is. What does Chuck want to defend, the right to believe any old tosh, as if this is inherently better than the unbelief of those spoilsport atheists?

This is another example of disparate and incompatible religions incoherently making common cause only in their opposition to atheism, as if that alone actually meant their beliefs had something in common.

(Good letter, Barry!)

Other Comments by j.mills

41. Comment #177411 by Corylus on May 9, 2008 at 3:41 am

Increasing numbers of Muslim youth, while young people are leaving Christianity in droves? Hmm. It might be that some of the variance in the figures is down to the apostasy taboo, and the threats that can result for people who leave this religion. I am sure that there are many people who simply trapped and too frightened to leave.

This is why the West has a moral duty to support the brave people in the Central Council of Ex-Muslims.

Grayling on this organisation:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ac_grayling/2007/06/the_courage_of_their_convictions.html

Their website:

http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/

The majority of Muslims probably do want to stay in the religion, however, we mustn't forget to fight for the rights of those that want to leave.

----
Anyways, I was absolutely intrigued as to why churches were moaning about their water bills...

Hundreds of churches are protesting at soaring water bills, with some parishes facing increases of up to 1,300 per cent. Senior churchmen from the Church of England, Methodist and other churches are meeting officials from Ofwat, the industry regulator, to argue their case against the charges today.

Huh? I thought, it's a while since I went to a church service, but I don't recall seeing a dishwasher on the go, or the vicar's smalls hanging on a line from the steeple...

So I did a bit of research

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/7386647.stm

It appears that they are protesting at the thought of being charged the same as everyone else.

Other Comments by Corylus

42. Comment #177418 by Demotruk on May 9, 2008 at 4:20 am

This is pretty much what's happening in all the European nations. The docile old state churches can't hold on to their flock as they get educated.

What's important is that we make sure people understand evangelical churches, so they don't suddenly fill the void.

Other Comments by Demotruk

43. Comment #177419 by rod-the-farmer on May 9, 2008 at 4:22 am

I suggest much of the reason for the growth in muslims numbers is their call for the death penalty for apostasy (leaving the faith). Once in, it would be hard to leave. No churn here. It would be interesting, if this penalty is ever carried out, or maybe even threatened, to see if UK law would permit the laying of a charge similar to 'hate literature'. After all, are we supposed to just accept this sort of thinking, without having the law take a close look at it, and lay charges ? Imagine the furor if a member of the Liberal Party were to be told "Leave and become an Independent, and we will kill you. It IS party policy." Why is religion given this free ride when they make pronouncements like this ? Anyone else would be drawn up by the ears and trundled off to the local court, amidst great publicity.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

44. Comment #177422 by Demotruk on May 9, 2008 at 4:30 am

Do they make those claims inside Britain? Doesn't that fall under "terrorism"?

Other Comments by Demotruk

45. Comment #177424 by jeggers on May 9, 2008 at 4:35 am

35. Comment #177378 by Barry Pearson on May 9, 2008 at 1:56 am

PJG said: All faiths/religious institutions should receive equal.... In all cases, the amount should be ZERO.

In case it is useful, here is the letter I sent to my MP, and also to his party leader (atheist Nick Clegg).
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/gods/letter1.htm

Barry, have you had a reply?

Other Comments by jeggers

46. Comment #177437 by ubermensch on May 9, 2008 at 5:11 am

The article assumes that 'christian' children will 'lose' their faith, whilst 'muslim' and 'hindu' children will retain theirs. In reality, as these immigrant communities become 4th, 5th and 6th generation, I believe that the dropout rate will begin to match that of christianity.

Other Comments by ubermensch

47. Comment #177450 by DamnDirtyApe on May 9, 2008 at 5:47 am

True enough on those figures Barry, but on the census itself clearly a lot of people are putting christian down, perhaps even if they are agnostic.

Maybe you are right, the figure could be a lot higher, but I suspect even with the great efforts of Dawkins et al, the majority of the public have still not been entirely convinced. There are still plenty who are probably unaware. There's unfortunately lots of bestsellers which people have never heard of, and lots of people who just don't read. And then there's the millions who just watch Corrination Street and Eastenders rather than a probing channel 4 documentary.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

48. Comment #177453 by phasmagigas on May 9, 2008 at 5:52 am

its all rather expected isnt it.

So long as churchgoing is something that gets you laughed at, so long as there is a social stigma attached to being a churchgoing young person, it will be difficult to reverse the trend." He said that young Muslims operated in a different environment. "Being religious is a way that you show you are different, that you are proud of your heritage. One of the ways young Muslims assert their identity is by being more observant than their parents."

some general musings

the average brit kid of non recent immigrant stock doesnt give a hoot about christianity, you are breaking the rules by not being religious (being religious takes some effort as such, so is rejected) so it suits the modern kids fine, it tallies with breaking all the rules generally which isnt perhaps a good thing but i wouldnt say its 'active atheism' as peter hitchens put it recently, its kids lacking any form of social control at all, teenagers who are active atheists tend to be more intelligent than average, the trouble makers are simply engaging in their default tendencies.

the muslim kids are doing what comes naturally to a group that sees themselves as a minority, they cling to whatever they can to show they are not like the rest of the population, I remember in the 80's muslim kids would seemingly 'westernise' to rebel against their parents but now they seem to want to seperate themselves from the rest of mainstream UK 'culture' and do this by strongly identifying with islam. There is a problem with this of course and its that in using religion as an identifier you are using a mechanism that innately sees the user as superior to those not using it.

I believe that many young muslims in the UK feel very strongly that they have the righteous upper hand over their non muslim peers, and comparing them to many of the kids in the UK they could be right, many reject alcohol and general vulgar behaviour but still many male muslims use drugs and are very misogynistic towards non muslim women.

Its all very interesting, if i walk down a uk street and see a bunch of white/non muslim kids on the corner theres a good chance they will be abusive towards me, a group of non white/muslim kids are less likely to do that, they might look at me as the enemy though and a friendly 'hi lads' directed at them will result in looks of (pleasant) suprise (please nobody suggest a friendly hi to a bunch of teenagers is in any way unwelcome, admittedly a group of thuggish white kids wouldnt appreciate it, they are too far gone, but a friendly gesture towards muslim kids is useful, it shows that im making the effort to at least see them as ordinary people, as an adult it is I who should make the effort and show by example)

we all know religion is a tyrant and forces people to keep in line as does local social norms but in the UK both seem to be disintegrating, I wonder to what degree do many people need cloaking in regulations to give them some perceived structure?

the thing with islam in the UK is that the snowball is rolling downhill quickly, christianity is one that is melting very quickly. note that the growth area in NI probably corresponds with differnt groups asserting their own identity, paralleling that in mainland UK.

its quite amazing to see hoards of people going to mosque, the nearset equivalent i see in non muslim uk is hoards going to football matches, im sure it serves a similar mental 'need'. iM only guessing though as i engage in neither.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

49. Comment #177455 by phasmagigas on May 9, 2008 at 5:57 am

The article assumes that 'christian' children will 'lose' their faith, whilst 'muslim' and 'hindu' children will retain theirs. In reality, as these immigrant communities become 4th, 5th and 6th generation, I believe that the dropout rate will begin to match that of christianity

right now the whole west vs islam spotlight fuels the rising religiosity, hopefully it will fizzle out somewhat, its amazing to think that the USA engagement in the middle east strengthens islam in the UK and elsewhere.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

50. Comment #177460 by Barry Pearson on May 9, 2008 at 6:10 am