Tuesday, July 22, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Islam subway ads cause stir in New York

by CNN

Thanks to catskill for the link.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/22/islam.ads/index.html

Islam subway ads cause stir in New York

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Ads promoting Islam are to be placed on New York subway cars in September, but a U.S. congressman finds people sponsoring the messages unacceptable.

"I have no problem with the ad itself, but I have a very, very real problem with those behind it," Rep. Peter King, a New York Republican, said Tuesday. He is urging the Metropolitan Transit Authority to reject the ads.

The campaign is to feature ads on 1,000 of the subway system's roughly 6,200 cars. The main sponsor is a grassroots organization, Islamic Circle of North America.

The ads, simple black-and-white panels, will feature key words or phrases about Islam on one side of the panel such as "Head Scarf?" or "Prophet Muhammad?" and the words "You deserve to know" along with the Web site address WhyIslam.org on the other side.

"The idea is to evoke certain thoughts in the mind-set of the person who is looking at the ads and get them to a point where they can reflect upon certain words that one could define as hot words or key words that get thrown around a lot but are not necessarily defined in the most proper context," said New York University's Imam Khalid Latif, a cleric who is promoting the project in a YouTube video created by the Islamic Circle. Video Watch the controversy surrounding the subway ads �

Another of the backers of the advertising campaign -- which will launch in September to coincide with the monthlong Islamic holiday of Ramadan -- is Siraj Wahhaj, imam of a Brooklyn mosque.

Wahhaj was the first Muslim to lead a prayer before the House of Representatives, but King objects to him because he was a character witness for convicted 1993 World Trade Center bombing mastermind Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman.

"He is a known Islamic extremist, and you would be giving him credibility and stature through a known government facility," said King, ranking member of the Homeland Security Committee.

Wahhaj also appeared on a list of 170 potential unindicted co-conspirators in the 1993 bombing case. A prosecutor said not everyone on the list was considered a co-conspirator.

Speaking to reporters Monday, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg did not join in King's outrage about the ads.

"If you were to advocate becoming a Muslim, I assume the First Amendment would protect you," he said.

But King, noting that the ads would be up during the seventh anniversary of the September 11 attacks, said, "I'm calling on the MTA not to have these ads, not to go forward with them, and I don't see this as a free speech issue at all."

King said he sent a letter to the MTA on Monday night demanding it reject the ads.

The New York Post has reacted strongly to the ads, running a cover photograph of Wahhaj on Monday with the headline "Jihad Train" and posting an article on its Web site with the headline "Train-ing day for jihadists" and the first paragraph saying, "Allah aboard!"

Abdel-Rahman and nine others were convicted in 1995 of seditious conspiracy for their role in a plot to bomb the United Nations, FBI headquarters in Manhattan, two tunnels in New York and a bridge connecting New Jersey with Manhattan -- all in one day.

The government said the group also was responsible for the February 26, 1993, World Trade Center bombing that killed six people and injured more than 1,000.

Andrew McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor in that case, said Wahhaj's name was included in a filing that prosecutors were required to provide to defense attorneys in the case, a list of all the names of people who could possibly be foreseen to come up in the evidence. The filing, McCarthy said, has been called a "co-conspirator list." But Wahhaj was never named by the prosecution.

"The only time he came up in a meaningful way before the jury is when the defense called him as a witness," McCarthy recalled.

McCarthy said that although the list named anyone the government might allege during the trial was a co-conspirator, not everyone on the list was so labeled.

Wahhaj said Monday that he was a character witness for Abdel-Rahman in the context of "what we knew about him before the incident," citing him as a "scholar in Islam" and "a great reciter of the Quran."

"People try to make the connection as if I'm endorsing some bad deeds that [were] done by Sheik Abdel-Rahman," he said. "That had nothing to do with it."

He added, "Not only have I never been charged with anything, not one FBI agent has ever asked me one question in relationship to that bombing."

Wahhaj also said that he regrets some of his more controversial statements, such as calling the FBI and the CIA "terrorists."

"What I was saying is that not all the FBI or CIA are terrorists, but there are some elements in there," he said. "So if you want to accuse some Muslims [of being terrorists], OK. These Muslims did that, but don't undermine the entire faith. That's what the message is."

Wahhaj said the New York Post's "cheesy" and "anti-Islam" reaction to his participation in the Subway Project is "the very reason the young Muslims want to put out this ad campaign."

Islamic Circle spokesman Azeem Khan called the situation a "perfect microcosm" of what the ads seek to address -- that Wahhaj's portrayal in media reports is similar to how Islam is often depicted.

"I think that even more so reinforces the idea as to why a project like this is necessary, where Muslims have to be more pro-active in terms of educating people about their religion, by no means proselytizing the faith in any capacity, but really setting a standard and defining what mainstream Islam stands for," Latif said.
advertisement

The project is the Islamic Circle's first such advertising campaign. The group has run ads before but not on New York's subways.

The transit authority said the cost of the monthlong campaign is about $48,000.

Posted: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 | Permalink

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1. Comment #215971 by dom1234 on July 22, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Islamists should forgot about ads in New-York for a few decades.

And right during 9/11 anniversary, weird coincidence. They should put an atheist ad: Imagine no religion.

Other Comments by dom1234

2. Comment #215973 by Sage on July 22, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Bit pointless really, where do they come up with the money for all this?

Other Comments by Sage

3. Comment #215975 by Goldy on July 22, 2008 at 4:07 pm

I suppose it is a good time to explore the religion - most people have only heard things about it.
Of course, one must also put in the seamier side of Islam - stoning, misyar weddings (or their equivalent other names), etc. I'd also mention the superstition and idiocy of some aspects (like http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7520149.stm) but it's not like other religions don't have the same.
Oh yeah, lets not forget the tolerance of the Islamic adherents.

Other Comments by Goldy

4. Comment #215976 by Fire1974 on July 22, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Perhaps they should run some cartoon images depicting a cute and cuddly Muhammad character being nice to people?

Other Comments by Fire1974

5. Comment #215981 by info_dump on July 22, 2008 at 4:14 pm

I say let them advertise. They're entitled to their superstitions, and they should be allowed to promote them, just as we should be allowed to speak out against them.

I'd also love to see more anti-religion ads out there, along the lines of the "Imagine No Religion" billboards.

Other Comments by info_dump

6. Comment #215987 by thewhitepearl on July 22, 2008 at 4:17 pm

I wonder what the uproar would be if the atheist community tried the same thing.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

7. Comment #215993 by catskill on July 22, 2008 at 4:25 pm

I am actually somewhat surprised that there has not been any backlash against Muslims in NYC. It shows that New Yorkers are a tolerant bunch. Still, I can see these ads getting defaced if they are put up. Especially after the media coverage.

Other Comments by catskill

8. Comment #215997 by gyokusai on July 22, 2008 at 4:29 pm

thewhitepearl sez:
I wonder what the uproar would be if the atheist community tried the same thing.

So true.

^_^J.

Other Comments by gyokusai

9. Comment #216000 by WilliamP on July 22, 2008 at 4:34 pm

How does a religion advertise? It sounds a bit ridiculous to me.

Have you ever wanted to walk around town with your head covered, even on hot days? Do you want to live a sexually repressed lifestyle? Want to give up alcohol and pork? Looking to prostrate yourself on a rug five times daily? If you said yes, then we have the right set of irrational beliefs for you!

Other Comments by WilliamP

10. Comment #216001 by gyokusai on July 22, 2008 at 4:36 pm

And, come to think of it, this New York Post piece is sheer demagogic garbage.

I remember dimly a time when this newspaper had quite a decent rep. As of now, it's a piece of shit.

^_^J.

Other Comments by gyokusai

11. Comment #216007 by Village_Idiot on July 22, 2008 at 4:51 pm

"You deserve to know" along with the Web site address www.WhyIslam.org on the other side.

The website, www.whyislam.org, is running an ad: THE COLLAPSE OF DARWINISM AND THE FACT OF CREATION. Essentially the subway campaign would advertise Creationism. Nothing less nothing more. I feel nauseous, it is happening right under my nose.

Other Comments by Village_Idiot

12. Comment #216011 by steveroot on July 22, 2008 at 4:54 pm

9. Comment #216000 by WilliamP on July 22, 2008 at 4:34 pm
How does a religion advertise? It sounds a bit ridiculous to me.

Have you ever wanted to walk around town with your head covered, even on hot days? Do you want to live a sexually repressed lifestyle? Want to give up alcohol and pork? Looking to prostrate yourself on a rug five times daily? If you said yes, then we have the right set of irrational beliefs for you!

Be fair: you have not mentioned the fabulous rewards program! :-)
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

13. Comment #216018 by b0ltzm0n on July 22, 2008 at 5:03 pm

I wonder how much it would cost for us to get some Imagine No Religion posters put up in the subway.

http://www.atheistsunited.org/images/ImagineNoReligion.jpg

If RD started a fund for it I'd gladly donate.

Other Comments by b0ltzm0n

14. Comment #216031 by PristinePanda on July 22, 2008 at 5:10 pm

Even better, New Yorkers should plaster ads selling copies of Salman Rushdie's depictions of Mohammad all over town.

The former site of the WTC should have a fifty story statue of Mohammad in a suicide vest with the words "IMAGINE NO RELIGION" printed on it while wearing a dunce cap and a copy of the Koran partially lodged in his rear.

Other Comments by PristinePanda

15. Comment #216034 by aquilacane on July 22, 2008 at 5:14 pm

I propose that we dub September International month of no religion. In this month, we live as if there were no religions at all, we pay them no respect, attention, or acknowledgment. If someone asks you if you believe in god, you just look at them funny and inquire as to what the hell they are talking about. When they explain, laugh, look at them evem funnier, ask if they are serious, and walk away (assuming you don't already)

Other Comments by aquilacane

16. Comment #216059 by HolyRusk on July 22, 2008 at 5:40 pm

And with a link on the front page to an article on Harun Yahya ("Muslim creationist preaches Islam and awaits Christ") you can expect a fair and balanced view of the world presented on this website. Kinda like fox news reporting on evolutionary biology.

Other Comments by HolyRusk

17. Comment #216060 by Dhamma on July 22, 2008 at 5:41 pm

Boltz: I was thinking the same when I read the article. The very picture you posted would be really powerful. I think it would be far better than the lady that wanted the pathetic ad on the buses in London.

Should we contact Josh on this matter? Never wrong doing something constructive for once.

Really, that picture was so strong. And with a link to RD.net... Touche!

(the apostrophe over the e looked all weird. Why do I use Linux???)

Btw: These subway-companies must be making shitloads on ads! Is the actual driving of the trains just an excuse to sell ads? :)

Other Comments by Dhamma

18. Comment #216077 by rod-the-farmer on July 22, 2008 at 5:59 pm

How about another enticement....

"Join OUR group, and if anyone tries to leave, YOU get to KILL them".

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

19. Comment #216088 by thewhitepearl on July 22, 2008 at 6:10 pm

Should we contact Josh on this matter? Never wrong doing something constructive for once.

I'm all for it. Like B0ltz said, if RD started a fund I would donate to it also. Perhaps we should all get in contact with local atheist groups and start a fund in each major city. Ads for the subway, or any public transportation,(In Dallas DART would have to suffice) billboards..etc..

If we were to do something like that locally amongst ourselves, who would we go to for permission?

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

20. Comment #216091 by WilliamP on July 22, 2008 at 6:14 pm

steveroot-

Sorry, but if I mentioned the rewards program, I would also have to include a lengthy disclaimer:

Answering of prayers not garaunteed. Heaven reserves the right to deny entry for any reason, including but not limited to its own non-existence. Allah disclaims all warranties on the quality, skill, and gender of any virgins recieved in exchange for martyrdom....

21. Comment #216095 by Rettet181 on July 22, 2008 at 6:28 pm

The website www.whyislam.org has an ad saying the following:

The Collapse of Darwinism
The Fact of Creation
Scientific discoveries refute Darwin's theory of evolution. Learn the facts in this film.

Great.

Other Comments by Rettet181

22. Comment #216102 by Ed-words on July 22, 2008 at 6:39 pm

Of course they'll be defaced, as would be atheist ads.

But atheist BILLBOARDS are being put up in the

Repub. and Dem. convention cities by FFRF

saying, "KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS!"

Other Comments by Ed-words

23. Comment #216108 by kkelly on July 22, 2008 at 6:48 pm

Really not a big deal. It's actually pretty apt that people associate islam with the stench of 1,000 homeless peoples' urine.

Other Comments by kkelly

24. Comment #216111 by rod-the-farmer on July 22, 2008 at 6:50 pm

I just watched the movie refuting evolution on the whyislam site. An expensive, professionally-done movie assembled out of quote-mining, half-truths and outright falsehoods. Even a lesser light such as myself would have no trouble refuting this in front of an audience. I suggest anyone intending to watch it have pen & paper ready to make notes on all the garbage "facts". Plus it has the usual conflation of abiogenesis with evolution. Sigh.

I did have one thought though. Maybe we start telling the U.S. school boards that muslims are opposed to teaching evolution. Now THAT might get them thinking.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

25. Comment #216118 by steveroot on July 22, 2008 at 7:03 pm

11. Comment #216007 by Village_Idiot on July 22, 2008 at 4:51 pm

The website, www.whyislam.org, is running an ad: THE COLLAPSE OF DARWINISM AND THE FACT OF CREATION.

On this site, under the heading "Scientific Accuracy of Quran" is the following:

The above evidence shows that the Qur'an must be from God as it claims. The Qur'an says that you and every human being should consider this book with care. Had it been from anyone other than God, you would have found much discrepancy in it (4:82).

(Source: http://www.whyislam.org/877/Just_a_Minute/Quran_Accuracy.asp)

Well, there it is! I'm converting now.
*Comes to senses, looks for Irate's commentary*
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

26. Comment #216127 by GordonYKWong on July 22, 2008 at 7:11 pm

"What I was saying is that not all the FBI or CIA are terrorists, but there are some elements in there," he said.

Oh the irony, it burns...

"So if you want to accuse some Muslims [of being terrorists], OK. These Muslims did that, but don't undermine the entire faith. That's what the message is."

There is no doubt Islam is having some serious PR issues, but why don't you clean up your house first (gender inequality, human rights violations, extremism) before embarking on "proselytizing the faith".

Heck, this is even before calling the truthfulness of your faith into question.

What would really help on all fronts, is if Muhammed could come out of retirement and descend down on Time Square on a flying stallion to spread the faith (I hope the horsey is toilet trained though, it won't good publicity if some New Yorker is covered in dung during the sermon).

Maybe Allah can run a direct telemarketing campaign to the citizens of New York. That could be fun to see.

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

27. Comment #216142 by Drool on July 22, 2008 at 7:24 pm

More drivel by Harun Yahya on that very site: whyislam.org/877/Modern_Science/Fall_of_Atheism.asp

(I figure you can copy and paste the URL into the browser address bar yourself, a proper link will only help their google index.)

Other Comments by Drool

28. Comment #216146 by Christopher Davis on July 22, 2008 at 7:27 pm

"...but really setting a standard and defining what mainstream Islam stands for," Latif said.---article

Mainstream Islam? I think, since 15-20% of Muslims are extreme radicals who work day and night to kill those who don't agree with their particular interpretation of the Koran, and another 75-80% of Muslims, although not actually participating in the violence, just shrug their shoulders and think "WTF do they expect, they're infindels?", that you are a little fucking deluded if you believe that "mainstream Islam" stands for anything worthwhile.

The "mainstream of Islam" is the violence and barbarism that 90-95% of Muslims advocate either through direct action or apathy. The 5-10% that would like to make Islam something more noble are the outliers. And if I had to guess, the majority of the outliers are just politically expedient bullshit artists.

Other Comments by Christopher Davis

29. Comment #216150 by Hellene on July 22, 2008 at 7:31 pm

by rod-the-farmer

".....An expensive, professionally-done movie....."

In reference to the whyislam anti-evolution movie.

Not really that expensive. All stills. Either from stock footage or ripped from the internet. Canned music. The Voice Over at about $50/hour. Editing, some Photoshop work. Certainly slick, and timed to music. It has the outward appearance of being "authoritative". But put it up against the "Planet Earth" series....

Not busting your chops rod-the-farmer.

Just pointing out that it seems mightier than it is.

Of course you and I know it's BS.

But what made me raise an eyebrow was that they seemed to be using ID talking points.

And that bothers me for some reason.

Other Comments by Hellene

30. Comment #216155 by quill on July 22, 2008 at 7:38 pm

It's just such a bad publicity strategy, advertising in a subway tunnel of all places, and on the anniversary of September 11. I don't think it should be censored, but what do they think they're going to achieve?

Other Comments by quill

31. Comment #216164 by felandath on July 22, 2008 at 7:53 pm

Fanusi. Where are you man??

I have posted on here before. I am a Muslim who happens to hate Islam. Hmm.. No contradictions there at all, eh?

I think, the ad campaign will just expose the inanities of the faith. Isn't that what we want? I have always said most devout Muslims defend themselves from a base of ignorance. The thing that turned me away from Islam was reading the Quran! If campaigns like this can get people to read the Quran or find out more about Islam I'd be really happy. Because, there is no way a thinking human being can read the Quran and continue to maintain that it is the perfect, unalterable & final word of a benevolent God.

One doesn't have to dig too far beneath the surface to see the pure evil this faith spews. Let more people go to "whyislam" and find out for themselves "why Islam" is exactly what people "misunderstand" it to be.

Perhaps, one of Muhamad's quotes could be made into a poster for the subway to promote a little S&M - "Always leave your whip where your wife can see it"

Poe's Law? I kid you not. He is actually quoted as saying that in the Hadith.

Cheers.

Other Comments by felandath

32. Comment #216167 by theantitheist on July 22, 2008 at 7:55 pm

Replace Muslim with Jew and Islam with Judaism in the context of the piece above.

No one would dare say anything for fear of being called anti-sematic (Yeah spellings off but fuck it you all know what i mean).

Thier selling a brand, whats the problem? (Apart from the obvious false advertising bit)

Other Comments by theantitheist

33. Comment #216179 by dragonfirematrix on July 22, 2008 at 8:06 pm

When does the water-boarding, torture, burning, dunking stool, and beheading punishment of non-believers begin?

Other Comments by dragonfirematrix

34. Comment #216180 by b0ltzm0n on July 22, 2008 at 8:08 pm

This could be another good Subway poster for riders to ponder:

http://www.irreligion.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/occamsrazorbu0.jpg

Other Comments by b0ltzm0n

35. Comment #216199 by Big City on July 22, 2008 at 8:24 pm

The examples that they gave (head scarf?-you deserve to know; Prophet Muhammad?-you deserve to know) seem much more suited for an anti-Islam website. At first, I thought they just chose the word 'deserve' to make it seem like it was something the reader would want to learn, more that should learn. The more I think about it, though, I think they're just trying to cash in on the resentment that NYC citizens have from 9/11 (i.e. having to watch their fellow citizens jump from 100-story-windows).

Other Comments by Big City

36. Comment #216205 by Christopher Davis on July 22, 2008 at 8:29 pm

"There is no doubt Islam is having some serious PR issues, but why don't you clean up your house first (gender inequality, human rights violations, extremism) before embarking on "proselytizing the faith"."---GordonYKWong

Because most Muslims don't consider these barbaric practices that need to be cleaned up...they consider them the will of God.

Other Comments by Christopher Davis

37. Comment #216214 by funflower on July 22, 2008 at 8:43 pm

I just learned from that neato "Collapse of Darwinism" movie on WhyIslam.org that that cells have these amazing little motors that are just too darned complex to have evolved "by coincidence"? I'll bet the Discovery Institute folk will be thrilled to know they are helping their fellow People of the Book recruit new members.

Other Comments by funflower

38. Comment #216241 by Quine on July 22, 2008 at 9:16 pm

Yes, and there are people who are just too darned stupid to have been created by a perfect deity.

P.S. As a variant on Russell's observation of multiple religions all claiming exclusive validity, it goes like this: Any religion claiming a perfect deity has to answer why that deity created a majority of humanity soooo stupid as not to recognize that one true religion.

Other Comments by Quine

39. Comment #216247 by Broicher on July 22, 2008 at 9:19 pm

If they allow christian ads then they should also allow muslim ads. It's just fair and equally weird.

As mentioned above, they should also put the "Imagine no religion" picture somewhere!

Other Comments by Broicher

40. Comment #216261 by T4Baxter on July 22, 2008 at 9:34 pm

I find it heartbreaking that the atheist community doesn't make a concerted effort to fill the posts on these sites with rational criticism of the media and opinions expressed there. There are plenty enough of us to turn the site into a forum on rational thought and steer the topics onto debunking the fallacies within the messages that get posted. We could have much more influence posting on a site frequently visited by the religious than hiding in the RDF where God bashing is expected. LOL imagine the discovery institutes horror at realizing their arguments support any irrational belief system and as such promote the verisimilitude of Islam as well! haha, they either have to lend equal credibility to the claims of Islam or retract their arguments from ID as unsatisfactory evidence.
Damn shame I say

Other Comments by T4Baxter

41. Comment #216281 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 22, 2008 at 10:29 pm

Bit pointless really, where do they come up with the money for all this?

Come on, sage, where do you think? Saudi Oil money, of course.

If they allow christian ads then they should also allow muslim ads. It's just fair and equally weird.

...

Thier selling a brand, whats the problem? (Apart from the obvious false advertising bit)

To Broicher, theantitheist & everyone else who might not know it, this is technically called Da'wa, the targeted attempt to convert others to Islam.

Now the problem arises because Islam is inherently fascistic and totalitarian. Imagine posters saying "Uncle Adolf Wants You!".

The sponsers behind this little escapade is the Islamic Circle of North America, the ICNA, which was listed in the famous 1981 memo by the Muslim Brotherhood as part of a Grand Jihad to undermine and destroy Western civilization from within. Various methods listed were targeted Da'wa, how to present Islam nicely, encourage Islamic immigration etc.

This is bad news. I think it's legit to say, "Oh, sure, you can have your posters - when we get Christian posters, and "Imagine no religion" in Ryadh".

UPDATE: Also, if somone were to run adds saying the truth about Islam, or quoting, say Winston Churchill on it, there'd be screams of 'Racist! Islamophobe!' and no way it would be allowed.

The Churchill quote I am thinking of is here:

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property -- either as a child, a wife, or a concubine -- must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science -- the science against which it had vainly struggled -- the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

42. Comment #216286 by paulwwww on July 22, 2008 at 11:07 pm

Agreed gyokusai

And, come to think of it, this New York Post piece is sheer demagogic garbage.

Thank goodness for the internet, otherwise us Americans would only have this type of propaganda. I strongly feel real reporting is over.

Other Comments by paulwwww

43. Comment #216287 by black wolf on July 22, 2008 at 11:10 pm

T4Baxter,
it's being done often. The problem is, the other side believes in censorship. Not just for trolls, but for any opposing viewpoint. Usually, critical and debunking posts get deleted within a few minutes or blocked through moderation. The only way to reach theists who are interested in finding truth is in public, or when they come to sites such as this one. It works more and more frequently, but those who get well sheltered away within their ignorant sphere get no exposure to reality. The internet is a great tool for penetrating these spheres - and the fundies are doing their best to close off internet access where they can. I think we're still winning.

Other Comments by black wolf

44. Comment #216291 by felandath on July 22, 2008 at 11:33 pm

@ Comment #216281 by Fanusi Khiyal

Ah Fanusi mate! Good to see u on this string. I think we should ask all the readers here to read "The Mind of the Mussalman". That would help.

Other Comments by felandath

45. Comment #216292 by theantitheist on July 22, 2008 at 11:34 pm

Fanusi,

If you follow the banning of religious promotional material through to it's logical conclusion, signs outside churches would be banned, books defending people having faith would be banned, speaking to someone and explaining why you have faith. Any promotion of any belief system would be banned. Can you imagine if in Socialist Britain we banned people from putting up posters promoting Capitalism stating that it was an evil system (as many people believe, and cite it as a major cause of many of the worlds problems).

We have to allow people to have the freedom to promote their ideas and beliefs however stupid. Yes i see that there has to be a line, i mean sticking up posters with things like "Cripples, why not kill them??" or "Slavery, works for me!" but these are things that are against the law as we define it at the present. Whether we like it or not believing in the Islamic god or any god/s is not illegal and there are many muslims who believe in that god but do not condone stoning, rape of children (i.e. marriage and consummating it under the age of 16). As long as they do not carry out crimes or incite people to carry out crimes, we've got to tolerate it and also combat it with education and expose it for what it is.

For Evil to flourish all it takes is the good man to sit back and do nothing �" Yoda 20345 AD (Or BC, can't tell whether it's in the future or the past). If I've misquoted I apologise

But you get my point, we've got to denounce it but not ban it.

Other Comments by theantitheist

46. Comment #216293 by DamnDirtyApe on July 22, 2008 at 11:52 pm

They missed one - Crash planes into buildings? You deserve to know.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

47. Comment #216294 by Sciros on July 22, 2008 at 11:55 pm

My XTerra needs the fuel. :ducks:

Other Comments by Sciros

48. Comment #216295 by Dr Doctor on July 22, 2008 at 11:58 pm

Islam as an idea, a way of life, is as clearly anti-democratic as Scientology.

The reason why the rhetoric of rivers of blood is less than overwhelming is that Islam is not a race, but an idea, and all ideas can be fought in the public area given they are permitted to be discussed.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

49. Comment #216296 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 22, 2008 at 11:59 pm

Felandath, good to see you again!

theantitheist I would have less of a problem if any attempt to tell the truth about Islam were not systematically stymied. Look at those countries that managed to survive, somewhat, Islam, like Turkey. They crack down heavily on public expressions of the faith, such as the veil, and they know it's necessary.

Lee Harris cites a parallel, I think it's with Locke, who when arguing for religions toleration meant tolerance amongst the Protestant sects but not the Catholics. The reason was simple: the Catholics were so strong that if they could set up shop, they'd wipe out the competing Protestant sects and any hope of religious plurarlism would come to an end. I submit the same applies to Islam.

UPDATE: felandath is entirely right. Here's the book:

Islam and the Psychology of the Musulman
http://musulmanbook.blogspot.com/

It's a very important, very accurate book that's been driven out of print.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

50. Comment #216299 by Jamie V on July 23, 2008 at 12:29 am

I took my three year old to the fair at the weekend. As we were queuing to pay to get in (yes, I know!), there was a sign by the entrance saying something to the effect that the fair was a multicultural event for people of all beliefs and cultures to enjoy.

That floored me - why on earth would they have a sign like that up at a funfair? It had perfectly normal fairground rides (and I might at this point advise anyone with a three year old not to take them on a Waltzer, even if they do say they want to), and it was slap bang in the middle of a pretty diverse area in London. What on earth did people think was going to happen to them?

One thing did strike me while I was standing by one of the rides. There was a lady standing next to me who was waving and smiling at her child as the ride went round. A Muslim lady in full Burka was sitting on the steps on my other side while her child was on the ride. How on earth are any Muslim children to get any affection outside their home when they can't see their mother's face?

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