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How Anecdotal Evidence Can Undermine Scientific Results
by Michael Shermer - Scientific American
Thanks to for the link.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=how-anecdotal-evidence-can-undermine-scientific-results
How Anecdotal Evidence Can Undermine Scientific Results
Why subjective anecdotes often trump objective data
By Michael Shermer
The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not.
On the one side are scientists who have been unable to find any causal link between the symptoms of autism and the vaccine preservative thimerosal, which in the body breaks down into ethylmercury, the culprit du jour for autism's cause. On the other side are parents who noticed that shortly after having their children vaccinated autistic symptoms began to appear. These anecdotal associations are so powerful that they cause people to ignore contrary evidence: ethylmercury is expelled from the body quickly (unlike its chemical cousin methylmercury) and therefore cannot accumulate in the brain long enough to cause damage. And in any case, autism continues to be diagnosed in children born after thimerosal was removed from most vaccines in 1999; today trace amounts exist in only a few.
The reason for this cognitive disconnect is that we have evolved brains that pay attention to anecdotes because false positives (believing there is a connection between A and B when there is not) are usually harmless, whereas false negatives (believing there is no connection between A and B when there is) may take you out of the gene pool. Our brains are belief engines that employ association learning to seek and find patterns. Superstition and belief in magic are millions of years old, whereas science, with its methods of controlling for intervening variables to circumvent false positives, is only a few hundred years old. So it is that any medical huckster promising that A will cure B has only to advertise a handful of successful anecdotes in the form of testimonials.
Take wheatgrass juice ... if you can stomach it. The claims for its curative powers are bottomless. According to the Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database (the "bible" of natural medicines: www.naturaldatabase.com), wheatgrass is "used therapeutically for increasing hemoglobin production, improving blood sugar disorders such as diabetes, preventing tooth decay, improving wound healing, and preventing bacterial infections." And that's not all. "It is also used orally for common cold, cough and bronchitis, fever and colds, inflammation of mouth and pharynx, tendency to infection, gout, liver disorders, ulcerative colitis, cancer, rheumatic pain, and chronic skin problems."
The alleged salubrious effects of wheatgrass were promoted in the 1940s by a Lithuanian immigrant to Boston named Ann Wigmore, a holistic health practitioner who was inspired by the biblical story of King Nebuchadnezzar, recounted in Daniel 4:33, in which "he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws." Wigmore also noted that dogs and cats eat grass when they are ill and feel better after regurgitation, which gave her the idea of the wheatgrass detox. Because we have fewer stomachs than cows do, she hatched the idea of blending freshly cut wheatgrass into juice form for easier digestion—through either orifice—a practice still employed today. She believed that the enzymes and chlorophyll in wheatgrass constitute its healing powers.
According to William T. Jarvis, a retired professor of public health at the Loma Linda University School of Medicine and founder of the National Council against Health Fraud (www.ncahf.org), this is all baloney: "Enzymes are complex protein molecules produced by living organisms exclusively for their own use in promoting chemical reactions. Orally ingested enzymes are digested in the stomach and have no enzymatic activity in the eater." Jarvis adds, "The fact that grass-eating animals are not spared from cancer, despite their large intake of fresh chlorophyll, seems to have been lost on Wigmore. In fact, chlorophyll cannot 'detoxify the body' because it is not absorbed."
I tried wheatgrass juice at the Oh Happy Days natural food store in Altadena, Calif., as part of an investigation for the pilot episode of Skeptologists, a series we hope to sell to a television network (where another biblical phrase is apropos: "Many are called, but few are chosen"). My co-stars—Kirsten Sanford, who has a Ph.D. in physiology and is now a science journalist, and Steven Novella, director of general neurology at the Yale School of Medicine—also imbibed. If a picture is worth a thousand words, I will double this essay's length by sharing the above snapshot.
Note: This article was originally printed with the title, "Wheatgrass Juice and Folk Medicine".
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=how-anecdotal-evidence-can-undermine-scientific-results
How Anecdotal Evidence Can Undermine Scientific Results
Why subjective anecdotes often trump objective data
By Michael Shermer
The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not.
On the one side are scientists who have been unable to find any causal link between the symptoms of autism and the vaccine preservative thimerosal, which in the body breaks down into ethylmercury, the culprit du jour for autism's cause. On the other side are parents who noticed that shortly after having their children vaccinated autistic symptoms began to appear. These anecdotal associations are so powerful that they cause people to ignore contrary evidence: ethylmercury is expelled from the body quickly (unlike its chemical cousin methylmercury) and therefore cannot accumulate in the brain long enough to cause damage. And in any case, autism continues to be diagnosed in children born after thimerosal was removed from most vaccines in 1999; today trace amounts exist in only a few.
The reason for this cognitive disconnect is that we have evolved brains that pay attention to anecdotes because false positives (believing there is a connection between A and B when there is not) are usually harmless, whereas false negatives (believing there is no connection between A and B when there is) may take you out of the gene pool. Our brains are belief engines that employ association learning to seek and find patterns. Superstition and belief in magic are millions of years old, whereas science, with its methods of controlling for intervening variables to circumvent false positives, is only a few hundred years old. So it is that any medical huckster promising that A will cure B has only to advertise a handful of successful anecdotes in the form of testimonials.
Take wheatgrass juice ... if you can stomach it. The claims for its curative powers are bottomless. According to the Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database (the "bible" of natural medicines: www.naturaldatabase.com), wheatgrass is "used therapeutically for increasing hemoglobin production, improving blood sugar disorders such as diabetes, preventing tooth decay, improving wound healing, and preventing bacterial infections." And that's not all. "It is also used orally for common cold, cough and bronchitis, fever and colds, inflammation of mouth and pharynx, tendency to infection, gout, liver disorders, ulcerative colitis, cancer, rheumatic pain, and chronic skin problems."
The alleged salubrious effects of wheatgrass were promoted in the 1940s by a Lithuanian immigrant to Boston named Ann Wigmore, a holistic health practitioner who was inspired by the biblical story of King Nebuchadnezzar, recounted in Daniel 4:33, in which "he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws." Wigmore also noted that dogs and cats eat grass when they are ill and feel better after regurgitation, which gave her the idea of the wheatgrass detox. Because we have fewer stomachs than cows do, she hatched the idea of blending freshly cut wheatgrass into juice form for easier digestion—through either orifice—a practice still employed today. She believed that the enzymes and chlorophyll in wheatgrass constitute its healing powers.
According to William T. Jarvis, a retired professor of public health at the Loma Linda University School of Medicine and founder of the National Council against Health Fraud (www.ncahf.org), this is all baloney: "Enzymes are complex protein molecules produced by living organisms exclusively for their own use in promoting chemical reactions. Orally ingested enzymes are digested in the stomach and have no enzymatic activity in the eater." Jarvis adds, "The fact that grass-eating animals are not spared from cancer, despite their large intake of fresh chlorophyll, seems to have been lost on Wigmore. In fact, chlorophyll cannot 'detoxify the body' because it is not absorbed."
I tried wheatgrass juice at the Oh Happy Days natural food store in Altadena, Calif., as part of an investigation for the pilot episode of Skeptologists, a series we hope to sell to a television network (where another biblical phrase is apropos: "Many are called, but few are chosen"). My co-stars—Kirsten Sanford, who has a Ph.D. in physiology and is now a science journalist, and Steven Novella, director of general neurology at the Yale School of Medicine—also imbibed. If a picture is worth a thousand words, I will double this essay's length by sharing the above snapshot.
Note: This article was originally printed with the title, "Wheatgrass Juice and Folk Medicine".
Comments 1 - 50 of 123 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #216654 by Ascaphus on July 23, 2008 at 11:23 am
I received my copy of SA just after a visit with my JW inlaws. My sister in law takes this type of bait along with the hook, line and sinker. It seems that if you take that first step of accepting things without evidence, then you might as well jump in all the way. As much fun as it is to make fun of those that have been hoodwinked, it also makes me cautious. What things have I accepted without substantial evidence simply because I saw it with my own eyes? It seems to me like the lesson is that anecdotes happen to us all, and that simply by having a real life experience, we are left a little less skeptical.
Matt
Other Comments by Ascaphus
3. Comment #216656 by ty90 on July 23, 2008 at 11:25 am
Hello everyone.My name is Ty and I have been an avid reader of Richard Dawkins.net for roughly a year, and I do not consider an article complete until I have read the comments that have just as much insight as the article it's self.
I am currently 17 and I been pondering for a long time how to introduce myself.
I respect many if you, you who know more and can explain with greater clarity.
One of the reasons I have not commented on articles before is because I believed I did not have any equally valid input, a belief I am trying to change via reading things on this site etc.
As for this article, I have always thought wheat juice was similar to other healthy organic detoxes like Green Tea and have often seen it at gyms and Whole Foods.
Interesting.
PS: I will always value criticism and feed back, but please note that I cannot argue my points as well as some of you nor as sure as my views.
Thanks-Ty
Other Comments by ty90
4. Comment #216657 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 11:26 am
Skeptologists huh? I hope to see it soon.
I really appreciate the work Michael Shermer has done and is doing. I saw him in a debate on C-Span not to long ago and was quite pleasant in his discussions.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
5. Comment #216658 by kkelly on July 23, 2008 at 11:27 am
Has anybody read the Cancer special of SciAM yet? It's really good.Other Comments by kkelly
6. Comment #216665 by Tezcatlipoca on July 23, 2008 at 11:34 am
I believe there was an outbreak of measles in Portland Oregon among children who weren't vaccinated. It will be tragic when a carrier of polio mingles with their populace. Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca
7. Comment #216668 by Edamus on July 23, 2008 at 11:35 am
Hey Ty,
I wish at 17 I had the "cojones" to post on a forum or article with an objective stand point whose target audience is probably 24-55...
Any-who, people always seem to singing the praise of Green Tea and its healing proponents; however, I've never heard of Wheat Grass until now, I'd be interested in seeing their faces after tasting it...
Other Comments by Edamus
8. Comment #216669 by Donny Yates on July 23, 2008 at 11:37 am
jenlaferriere - you do realise that is the kind of anecdotal evidence Shermer is talking about - "I have many friends..."The fact that they were not vaccinated and have led healthy lives is, again, anecdotal.
And, to be honest, I wouldn't listen to chiropractors on this topic anyway. This article is quite interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic
Don.
Other Comments by Donny Yates
9. Comment #216673 by kkelly on July 23, 2008 at 11:42 am
6, England just had its first measles fatality in some 15 years.Other Comments by kkelly
10. Comment #216676 by decius on July 23, 2008 at 11:45 am
Comment #216652 by jenlaferriereSorry to break it to you, jen. Chiropractic is plain quackery with no basis in science, and it doesn't surprise me a bit that a bunch of chiropractors would take an anti-scientific stance against vaccination, too.
The anecdote about two of them not having contracted any disease, so far, is equally unremarkable. Most likely, they have benefited from the herd effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity), while at the same time, in a near-parasitic way, increasing the risk of contagion to others.
Please, don't take my word for that. Research this issue further on your own, and be more sceptical of authority, especially false ones.
Other Comments by decius
11. Comment #216678 by Tezcatlipoca on July 23, 2008 at 11:49 am
Decius,
thanks for the post and link. I could not remember the term herd immunity. Wheel chairs, iron lungs and leg braces. How soon we forget.
Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca
12. Comment #216679 by Colwyn Abernathy on July 23, 2008 at 11:52 am
Superstition and belief in magic are millions of years old, whereas science, with its methods of controlling for intervening variables to circumvent false positives, is only a few hundred years old.
BUZZZ!! Not if you count the Ionian Greeks, who came up with the idea of scientific inquiry long before Christ allegedly got nailed to a tree. Counting the origins of the process, it's much older.
Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy
13. Comment #216680 by Ascaphus on July 23, 2008 at 11:55 am
Comment 8 by Donny Yates:You beat me to it. The article is all about accepting anecdotes and friends advice rather than scientific research, and the first comment questions the science with anecdotes. Didn't have to go far for that one. Jenla: what is the research?
The coupling of chiropractic with fear of vaccination is a good example of the 'trend' I mentioned. Once you've accepted the first one without science, then why not that one, and that one,...
Matt
Other Comments by Ascaphus
14. Comment #216684 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Welcome Ty,
Don't hide in the shadows. You'll learn more by interacting. We won't think you're stupid for asking questions and trying to learn. Or putting in your input.
I don't really know anything about wheatgrass.
I do know that all of these people who aren't giving their kids vaccines because they are afraid of them becoming autistic is ridiculous. They'd rather take the chance of their kids dying then have to deal with a disorder.
This is oooh what's the word I'm searching for...shallow? Lazy? stupid? barbaric?
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
15. Comment #216685 by Sciros on July 23, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Once you've accepted the first one without science, then why not that one, and that one,...
Well, something can be useful to know regardless of whether there's any known science to explain it. Everything that science can elegantly explain today was "anecdotal observation" at some prior time. It's not irrational to go by anecdotal evidence if it is *useful,* with the assumption that the effect/event in question will later be explained scientifically (either as something correct or misunderstood).
Other Comments by Sciros
16. Comment #216691 by kkelly on July 23, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Oh, and how about those mothers who won't give their girls Gardasil because they think it might encourage promiscuity? Even if that logic were sound, there's still herpes, chlamydia, gono, etc. Yeah, the second they develop some immunity to HPV they're going to fuck around with a complete disregard for a life-long virus that periodically chars their vaginas with painful sores. People usually get infected with HPV during their first sexual relationships. How evil, in my opinion, to deny your daughter protection from something that will likely infect them during the course of their lives.Other Comments by kkelly
17. Comment #216692 by decius on July 23, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Comment #216678 by TezcatlipocaYou are welcome.
Comment #216684 by thewhitepearl
They'd rather take the chance of their kids dying then have to deal with a disorder.
Sorry to nitpick, white.
The link between autism and vaccines is not proven, and it's a case of mass-hysteria fuelled by unscrupulous charlatans.
Autism figures have been on the increase during the last decades because of higher awareness and better diagnoses.
As it happens, symptoms of the condition become apparent at around the same age in which children are vaccinated, and it's easy for distraught parents to confuse correlation with causation, and unwittingly add to the panic by publicly voicing their concerns.
In case you are interested, I have a few links that will help to clarify the issue.
Other Comments by decius
18. Comment #216693 by Tezcatlipoca on July 23, 2008 at 12:20 pm
I believe that in the U.S. the usage of thimerasol as a preservative was stopped and yet the rate of diagnosed cases of autism has not changed. Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca
19. Comment #216695 by Dhamma on July 23, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Ty: I'm 23, and I don't have a clue about any of this, but it's great fun to learn more about the evolution, and to learn better arguments for why there is no god. When I look at all the other posts I realize I build up sentences like a ten year old, but I have a hard time believing I'll get worse the more I write.
For a foreigner it's particularly good spending time here, as I think I've taught myself some new English words, and perhaps some grammar as well.
But above all, it's damn fun.
Other Comments by Dhamma
20. Comment #216698 by 8teist on July 23, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Ah wheatgrass,I think the scientific theory of the benefits of wheatgrass is ,if it tastes like shit then it has to be good for you. Other Comments by 8teist
21. Comment #216699 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 12:26 pm
The link between autism and vaccines is not proven, and it's a case of mass-hysteria fuelled by unscrupulous charlatans.
Oh I know ,I know that's why this is a hot button for me. Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I should of said something like, "There isn't any real link between the two, but even if there was"...etc etc..
But if you could still send me those links so that I might pass them on to the close minded people I know that think they know more than the doctors because the news told them so.. Not to mention some psuedo-physician is making a big crack at it, so they wont give their kids shots and warn other people against it also..I'd really like to pass those along.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
22. Comment #216700 by Tezcatlipoca on July 23, 2008 at 12:27 pm
The looks on Shermer, Sanford, and Novella's faces said it all about the wheat grass. Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca
23. Comment #216703 by eh-theist on July 23, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Funny this article would appear now. I was having dinner with a new Physician (we are trying to entice MDs to come to our city to set up their practice) and the organizer of the dinner told about how her son never had an earache, cold, etc., until he had his vaccinations and so she didn't get her youngest child vaccinated and she tells people her "story" to "help" them.
The doctor looked at her and said "it is a terrible misfortune of others around you that you see a relationship where one likely does not exist." He then went on to say that she is not only risking her child but the community as a whole.
My family doctor always responded to the "my child never got sick until they got their 'shots'" with "your child was never 5 years old until they got their shots but I hardly believe the shots made them that way." (I will apologize to her for not remembering the "age" that she referred to or the exact wording she used.)
Other Comments by eh-theist
24. Comment #216704 by 8teist on July 23, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Tez, yes I`m going to be laughing about that photo all day.:) Other Comments by 8teist
25. Comment #216705 by kkelly on July 23, 2008 at 12:35 pm
The new statistically- and empirically-unfounded stance from the anti-vaccine camp does not blame thimerosal anymore. They are saying that the immune response to so many antigens at such a young age causes an unknown autoimmune reaction against some part of the brain.This will be more difficult to convince them otherwise, because autoimmunity has been hypothesized as a cause for certain mental illnesses, with good reason, and because of the sporadic cases where vaccines did trigger autism-like symptoms in children with mitochondrial disorders, who as a group, respond inadequately and inappropriately to infection.
Other Comments by kkelly
26. Comment #216707 by Apathy personified on July 23, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Ah yes, the wonderfully magic world of factoids. In merry old England today we had this case about 'detox diets' -http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7520756.stm
There are homeopathic 'practitioners' who advise customers NOT to take anti malarial pills when travelling to malaria areas, but to take 'special' homeopathic remedies instead.
Other Comments by Apathy personified
27. Comment #216708 by decius on July 23, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Comment #216699 by thewhitepearlThe most comprehensive resource probably is this subset of Quackwatch. http://www.autism-watch.org/
Other Comments by decius
28. Comment #216709 by Ishruul on July 23, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Anecdotal evidence.....
That's what you hear in tavern, barber shop and firecamp.
There's nothing down to earth in those. It's always the-friend-of-the-sister-of-the-guy-next-door stretchout story.
'Big Fish' storyline are poetic but are no base for taking medical decision. Vaccination safe lives, that's the ONLY use they have and so far, have done a hell of a job.
Stupid new-age-hippies-trying-to-convinve-people-that-primordial-spirit-of-the-buffalo-will-cure-me-of-whatever-with-rubbing-my-face-with-dried-buffalo-feces and no good basic for a better control of disease just like anecdotes.
Ah! Well it just piss me off!!!
Other Comments by Ishruul
29. Comment #216710 by Ascaphus on July 23, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Sciros said: Well, something can be useful to know regardless of whether there's any known science to explain it. Everything that science can elegantly explain today was "anecdotal observation" at some prior time. It's not irrational to go by anecdotal evidence if it is *useful,* with the assumption that the effect/event in question will later be explained scientifically (either as something correct or misunderstood).
I disagree almost entirely (almost).
You make a good point which Shermer avoided this time, that some anecdotes can and are eventually tested and pass muster. Scientific vindication of the idea. Does this vindicate those folks who 'knew' it was true before it was tested? No. Because this mystic/herky-jerky/other 'way of knowing' is a mixed bag of accidental success, dangerous mistakes, and outright charlatanry. Science is the way of knowing. So when you say "something can be useful to know" outside of science, you're fooling yourself. You don't know anything outside of science in precisely the same way. You only take a blind grab in that mixed bag.
And no, not everything vetted by science was once an anecdote. Some, like the fact that vaccines do not cause autism, run precisely counter to the intuitive anecdotes favored by urban legend. Others may have been, but again this does not condone the acceptance of ideas without evidence.
You say it's not irrational to accept 'useful' things without evidence. But this usefulness is exactly what is in question! Human minds want to accept the anecdote as proof that something is 'useful,' but it may not be. In every one of these examples by Shermer or posted by the RDNet members, somebody has accepted the hogwash because they think it is real, that it works, that it is useful. But how can we 'know' it is useful without all the doubleblind testing, etc.? That is the whole point of the article. It is not that there are all these 'useful' bits of knowledge out there waiting for science to explain how they work. We also have to use science to determine if they work at all - if they are actually useful at all.
Matt
Other Comments by Ascaphus
30. Comment #216711 by Absinthius on July 23, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Jenlaferriere - The point you make is as Donny Yates sais exaclty what Shermer tries to point out as being an invalid one. And as to explain the urge that arises in me to disbelieve all the claims of chiropractors, I think in one of their episodes of "Bullshit" Penn & Teller show the -dangers- and lack of actual medical background in chiropractice. I'd say vaccination at least is proven to do some good.
EDIT: season one, episode two
Other Comments by Absinthius
31. Comment #216715 by kkelly on July 23, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Let me just leave you with this, Jenlaferriere:Chiropractic was founded by a grocer and con artist in the late 1800s who had no knowledge of medicine or even human anatomy.
Other Comments by kkelly
32. Comment #216716 by henning on July 23, 2008 at 12:49 pm
A TV series with Michael Shermer and Steven Novella! Sweet as rain! Steven Novella's podcast The Skeptic's Guide To The Universe is excellent. A great article as well, this was.Other Comments by henning
33. Comment #216718 by epeeist on July 23, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Comment #216656 by ty90 Welcome to the site.
PS: I will always value criticism and feed back, but please note that I cannot argue my points as well as some of you nor as sure as my views.
Quite honestly if you don't understand something but it is something you are interested in then the best thing to do is to say so. While we aren't here as an education service most people will respond positively to those who look as though they genuinely want to learn. Don't be too worried about those few who post somewhat more robustly.
Other Comments by epeeist
34. Comment #216734 by skyhook87 on July 23, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Does anybody know if the preservative thimerosal was replaced by another preservative once it was removed from vaccines? This could raise reasonable questions about the conclusions drawn from the steady autism rates.
Other Comments by skyhook87
35. Comment #216746 by Sciros on July 23, 2008 at 1:22 pm
FUCK FUCK FUCK I hit submit before copying my reply and it timed out.
Matt,
I overgeneralized in parts and didn't really specify what I was talking about, but anyway to make sense of what I said I need to make a distinction.
Given a phenomenon X, you are talking about validating the existence of X. I am talking about explaining X, given its existence. Certainly doing the latter makes no sense without first doing the former.
You're thinking of something like vaccination=>autism, a phenomenon the *existence* of which needs to be scientifically validated. I was thinking about something like observed but unexplained animal behavior, the existence of which is accepted but the causes not really determined (e.g. many animals fleeing before an earthquake).
I wrote a much more detailed response but like hell am I going to remember/repeat it, so that's the best I care to do now ^^
Other Comments by Sciros
36. Comment #216748 by Auraboy on July 23, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I dislike quackery and homeopathy and all the rest of such nonsense as the next person but it should, perhaps in the interests of fairness, be noted that the Pharmaceutical industry does have a habit of not publishing studies that fail to reach it's public goals. Yes, I know, scientific studies are often abandoned for safety reasons and a whole other raft of reasons and it's not all a vast global conspiracy fuelled by money, but having actually worked on documentaries investigating the delayed removal of Thimerosal from certain vaccines (lawsuits actually prevented by certain provisions in the original Patriot Act) to the suicidal side effects of certain anti-depressants (ironic if nothing else) to the ongoing misprescription of numerous medicines by Doctor's throughout the U.S and U.K.
Science is not by far the best option, it is the ONLY option, and it is fair to say that the actual raw results of scientific studies have generally shown these problems up, it's only when the results are removed, ignored, denied or obfuscated away that science fails. And then the way becomes open for the deluded rants of the quacks.
37. Comment #216751 by monoape on July 23, 2008 at 1:30 pm
jenlaferriere:I have many friends who are chiropractors ... who have varying degrees of religious belief, but all of them are against vaccination.
Many? Two? Three? Thirty? Sorry, but that seems an odd claim, unless you're also a chiropractor or some other 'new age' healer.
Regardless, chiropractors are some of the biggest snake oil salesmen going, so it comes as no surprise that they would suffer a bout of Dunning Kruger effect when scientific evidence is given for efficacy of vaccination.
This is coming from someone with degenerative disc disease who saw three chiropractors, all of whom promised cure with sciencey-sounding talk about 'realignment', etc. After the third had extracted a good percentage of my wallet, I went hunting for scientific evidence for chiropractry. There is none, beyond placebo effect and the benefits of a good massage that would be better provided by a physiotherapist.
Of course, everyone knows someone who went to a chiropractor with a painful neck / back / hip / whatever and was 'miraculously' cured - but that is exactly what this article warns against: anecdotal evidence.
If not obvious, I despise chiropractors - they prey on people with painful conditions who are desperate for a cure or relief. Some of them may be genuine and believe they are helping, but then so do people with magic crystals and chicken entrails.
/rant
Other Comments by monoape
38. Comment #216753 by rokeisland on July 23, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Speaking of Homeopathic remedies such as wheat grass, anyone seen the television show Mythbusters? It's on the Discovery Channel.Anywho, they tested one myth about motion sickness and what people can do to help prevent it. Suprise suprise, the over-the-counter Medicine worked the best of all the solutions they tried (and they tried a lot).
Of course, following the thoughts of the thread, the fact that the best cure for motion sickness is medicine doesn't exactly correlate to the fact that wheatgrass does nothing for you, but it's a place to start, especially for those people that like anecdotal evidence.
Other Comments by rokeisland
39. Comment #216762 by Edouard Pernod on July 23, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Jeanlaferriere, here is a chiropractic story for you. In at least 4 well documented instances, a fatal or permanently debilitating stroke has been induced by chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine (the cervical artery was dissected by the manipulation as determined by medical examiners). That is beyond mere anecdotal evidence. And yet every time you go to a chiropractor, they crack your neck, even if you are not complaining of any head or neck pain. I see no difference between that and waving a magic crystal over your body to heal you, and the risk is very real.By the way, vaccines certainly do not cause autism, and it's not because an astounding majority of individuals who are vaccinated do not become autistic. It is because there has been no causal link established between anything in the vaccine and autism (which BTW has a huge spectrum of disorders and a plethora of causes which are still being uncovered). There is however plenty of causal evidence showing what happens to people exposed to the bacteria clostridium tetani if they are not given a tetanus shot, and plenty of causal evidence indicating what happens to people exposed to the German Measles virus if they do not receive Rubella vaccine. Furthermore, if a mother is not vaccinated for Rubella she can pass the virus on to the unborn infant which results in the horrific congenital rubella syndrome. It is just plain stupid to not vaccinate a child because somebody somewhere says it may cause autism. It's like not eating Broccoli because someone you know who ate Broccoli got cancer. There is literally no more evidence supporting a link between autism and vaccination than there is a link between Broccoli and cancer.
It is foolish to take the word of chiropractors over the word of actual causal scientific evidence, and chiropractic medicine is barely "medicine", it really only is medicine when it provides short-term pain management after an injury resulting in some sort of nerve compression, the rest of it is highly profitable and scientifically unsupported nonsense.
Please think about these things before you believe in anecdotal epidemiological hearsay.
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40. Comment #216768 by WilliamP on July 23, 2008 at 1:50 pm
On the vaccine issue in general, even if it were to cause autism, people should not oppose vaccination. Economists love vaccinations as an example of a positive externality- something that benefits people other than the main reciever of the benefit. If one person gets vaccinated, then the disease has one less place to spread to. If many people do it, then the disease will have few places to go and it will stop spreading. A few people can get away with not being vaccinated because everyone else is no longer a vessle for the disease, and it doesn't spread. That will change if fewer people get vaccinated and the chance of getting Measles increases.On annecdotal evidence for vaccinations causing autism, I think it's absurd for people to take the tiny chance of their kids getting a deadly disease based on anecdotal evidence. The evidence itself is weak, especially since it seems to show a correlation between vaccinations and autism. It seems obvious that any other factor could cause autism, even the child's age. Maybe autism can only be diagnosed around the age when children get most of their vaccinations. Maybe any of the hundreds of things that children are first exposed to in their first two years causes it. Why pick on vaccinations?
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41. Comment #216777 by robotaholic on July 23, 2008 at 2:02 pm
that picture is awesome Other Comments by robotaholic
42. Comment #216787 by Edouard Pernod on July 23, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Skyhook,There is no evidence indicating Thimerasol causes autism. In fact there is no evidence ANYTHING causes autism because the research is still being conducted. There is evidence that there may be a genetic origin to some spectrums of Autism, and that those genes may make the individual more sucseptible to environmental triggers that may turn them into the "cause autism" state, but there is no evidence of any ingested substance directly causing autism, and even the possible genetic/environmental links are very loose at this point. A good friend is an MD/PhD conducting research at Yale on Autism and he is an expert on the current status of autism research. Autism is such a huge range of disorders, and the genetic markers and variables relating to autistic children are so diverse that there is not yet compelling evidence about anything as a likely cause of autism.
Mental retardation, on the other hand, has some documented causes of individuals being made retarded by something they consumed. Tryptophan suppresses a key enzyme necessary for neurological development during the first 6-12 months of life, so it is wise to avoid any baby food with turkey in it. Ironically you never hear anything about that information, even though there is far more compelling evidence to avoid giving anything containing tryptophan to infants than there is against thimerosol causing autism.
This is what happens when you have a scientifically ignorant populace. Thankfully people like Schemer, Dawkins and others are out there exposing the hysteria for what it is. I recommend you read Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World". That will teach you many valuable lessons about how to skeptically think about things and save you from a great deal of deceptions. Also read The New England Journal of Medicine.
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43. Comment #216797 by skyhook87 on July 23, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I was speaking to the dubious nature of the conclusions drawn. As I am sure you understand, if all variables are not held constant, it is very difficult to establish a causal relationship. In no way did I state that Thimerasol causes autism. This strawman has been knocked out.BTW, I have read Deamon Haunted World. Your assumption that I need many valuable lessons on how to think skeptically seems a bit unwarranted.
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44. Comment #216801 by Quetzalcoatl on July 23, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Ty90-
One of the reasons I have not commented on articles before is because I believed I did not have any equally valid input, a belief I am trying to change via reading things on this site etc.
.....
PS: I will always value criticism and feed back, but please note that I cannot argue my points as well as some of you nor as sure as my views
Believe me, when I started posting here I felt the same way. The best approach (in my opinion) is that if you have something to say about an article, just say it, don't worry whether someone might put it better or anything like that. Get your opinion out there.
Besides, the only way you're going to improve is to post, and have to deal with the various responses and challenges that come your way.
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45. Comment #216822 by Edouard Pernod on July 23, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Sorry Skyhook, I believe I misread your post. I thought you were saying it needed to be determined that Thimerasol did not cause autism. I get a bit defensive of the subject, as I am pursuing a medical career myself, and one of the greatest thwarters of effective treatment is the public perception that "natural is always better" and that anecdotal evidence is good enough to not take medicines prescribed to you by doctors or to not give them to children. I apologize and didn't intend to offend.Cheers!
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46. Comment #216864 by Dhamma on July 23, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Sciros: I feel you :) I did it the other day too. And while I'm generally slow at typing, I was fast this time and wrote what felt like a minor novel. Pressed submit.... FUUUUUUCK!Wanted to toss my pc out of the window!
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47. Comment #216874 by Gmork on July 23, 2008 at 3:15 pm
In summary, it's the networking term Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) applied to the human brain, though, completely without the context of the article.Does anyone investigate every little thing that they do or use in everyday life? How they wash their hands; how effective the soap is; washing with hot water or cold water; well, it's easier (less energy used) to follow the default configuration--maybe not even being aware of it--thus leaving out the ability to override/intercept it.
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48. Comment #216877 by skyhook87 on July 23, 2008 at 3:22 pm
@Edouard Pernod No worries.
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49. Comment #216884 by TyKonderoga on July 23, 2008 at 3:39 pm
And why do things like alternative medicine and the vaccine/autism thing seem to attract such high profile celebrities (or at least semi-high profile celebrities)?
http://truthisawoman.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/vaccinations-autism-celebrities-and-wrestling-yes/
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50. Comment #216889 by Frank Grimes Jr on July 23, 2008 at 3:49 pm
A quick comment on the discussion about the fact that anecdotal observations somtimes actually turn into proper scientific facts: It is possible to view it in the same way as William K. Clifford did in his "The Ethics of Belief" way back in 1877 (naturally causing quite a stir as I understand).http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/w_k_clifford/ethics_of_belief.html
If you believe something without proper evidence and it later turns out to be true, your moral position was in no way better initially than had you been dead wrong, you were just lucky.
Nevertheless I can certainly see how anecdotes feed scientific thought and could pave the way for researching different topics that otherwise might have gone unnoticed.
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1. Comment #216652 by jenlaferriere on July 23, 2008 at 11:20 am
My point is that there seems to actually be research out there suggesting vaccination can be harmful.
Anyone have details that they can share...
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