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Tuesday, July 29, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Breeding for God

by Prospect Magazine.

Thanks to AdrianB for the link.

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7913

In Europe, the fertility advantage of the religious over non-believers has historically been counterbalanced by the march of secularisation. Not any more. Secularisation in Europe is now in decline, and Islam continues to grow. Europe will start to adopt a more American model of modernity
Eric Kaufmann

The modern western world is inseparable from the idea of secularisation. From Socrates's refusal to acknowledge the Greek gods to Copernicus's heretical idea that the earth revolved around the sun to the French revolution's overthrow of religious authority, the path of modernity seemed to lead away from the claims of religion. In our own time, the decline in church attendance in Europe is seen as evidence that secular modernity has entered the lives of ordinary people. Some optimistic secularists even see signs that the US, noted as a religious exception among western nations, is finally showing evidence of declining church attendance. But amid the apparent dusk of faith in Europe, one can already spot the religious owl of Minerva taking flight. This religious revival may be as profound as that which changed the course of the Roman empire in the 4th century.

In his remarkable book The Rise of Christianity, the American sociologist of religion Rodney Stark explains how an obscure sect with just 40 converts in the year 30AD became the official religion of the Roman empire by 300. The standard answer to this question is that the emperor Constantine had a vision which led to his conversion and an embrace of Christianity. Stark demonstrates the flaws in this "great man" portrait of history. Christianity, he says, expanded at the dramatic rate of 40 per cent a decade for over two centuries, and this upsurge was only partly the result of its appeal to the wider population of Hellenistic pagans. Christian demography was just as important. Unlike the pagans, Christians cared for their sick during plagues rather than abandoning them, which sharply lowered mortality. In contrast to the "macho" ethos of pagans, Christians emphasised male fidelity and marriage, which attracted a higher percentage of female converts, who in turn raised more Christian children. Moreover, adds Stark, Christians had a higher fertility rate than pagans, yielding even greater demographic advantage.

Some of the sources which Stark draws upon are open to question. What is not contestable is that many latter-day religious groups have thrived thanks to high fertility. The Mormons, for example, like Stark's early Christians, have maintained a 40 per cent per decade population growth rate for 100 years. They remain 70 per cent of Utah's population in the teeth of substantial non-Mormon immigration, and have even expanded into neighbouring states. In the 1980s, the Mormon fertility rate was around three times that of American Jews. Today the Mormons, once a fringe sect, outnumber Jews among Americans under the age of 45.

Demography is also critical to explaining the rise of the religious right in America. An important recent article in the American Journal of Sociology by Michael Hout, Andrew Greeley and Melissa Wilde examines trends in American religious denominational growth in the 20th century. The authors find that conservative Protestant denominations increased their share of all white Protestants from one third among those born in 1900 to two thirds for those born in 1975. Three quarters of the growth of white conservative Protestant denominations is demographic, since they have maintained a fertility advantage over more liberal denominations for many decades. As with the rise of Christianity itself, slow-moving sociological pressures created the conditions for a political "tipping point" to occur. This time, Republican strategists played the role of Constantine's advisers, who saw which way the wind was blowing and moved to exploit the new social trends.

Outside the US, there is further evidence for this thesis. In Israel, the growth of the ultra-Orthodox proportion of the Jewish population is all but assured because of their threefold fertility advantage over secular Jews. Elsewhere in the middle east, the relative decline of Arab Christians—especially in their Lebanese heartland—has nothing to do with conversion and everything to do with demography.

The share of the world's population that is religious is growing, after nearly a century of modest decline. This effect has been produced by the younger generations in the developing world rejecting secularisation, combined with higher religious fertility levels. Throughout the world, the religious tend to have more children, irrespective of age, education or wealth. "Secular" Europe is no exception. In an analysis of European data from ten west European countries in the period 1981-2004 I found that next to age and marital status, a woman's religiosity was the strongest predictor of her number of offspring. Many other studies have found a similar relationship, and a whole school of thought in demography—"second demographic transition theory"—suggests that fertility differences in developed countries are underpinned by value differences, with secular men and women unwilling to sacrifice career and lifestyle aspirations to have children and have them early.

In a series of controversial articles, Phillip Longman of the New America Foundation has drawn attention to the political ramifications of religious demography in the US, pointing to the sizeable fertility advantage enjoyed by more religious "red" states over the Democratic "blue" states. As Arthur Brooks of Syracuse University recently wrote in the Wall Street Journal, "if you picked 100 unrelated politically liberal adults at random, you would find that they had, between them, 147 children. If you picked 100 conservatives, you would find 208 kids. That's a 'fertility gap' of 41 per cent. Given that about 80 per cent of people with an identifiable party preference grow up to vote the same way as their parents, this gap translates into lots more little Republicans than little Democrats to vote in future elections." Many liberals challenge this logic. Surely many of the children of the religious in the US will become secular, as they have in western Europe for generations. In Europe, religion counts for less in elections than it ever has, and Catholic Europeans from Dublin to Barcelona are still embracing secularism with gusto. Even in the US, there has been an appreciable growth in the "no religion" population over the past decade to 14 per cent. Seizing upon this evidence, Pippa Norris and Ronald Inglehart, two leading political scientists, advance the argument that the world is still heading in a more secular direction. They accept that the reverse is occurring in the short term, but claim that modernisation will result in increased wealth and security in the developing world, lowering religiosity and fertility. Secularism will eventually trump religious fertility.

They have a point. Phillip Longman is correct to identify religious fertility as important, but has neglected the "apostasy" side of the equation. If fertility is always the main mechanism of social change, we would expect much higher populations of Amish, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and other sects with very high fertility. Yet we know that these sects suffer high "defection" rates—even the Mormons lose a higher percentage of their children than most American denominations. A religious population is more porous than an ethnic population, because conversion or abandonment of the faith can take place rapidly and easily. And as long as the rate of abandonment is high enough to compensate for the religious fertility advantage, there is no threat to secularism. European data show that the religious have had a demographic advantage over their secular counterparts for several generations, but also that this advantage has been balanced out by the secularisation of many of the children of Europe's faithful. Bearing this in mind, I developed a more nuanced model of religious change that accounts for both religious fertility and abandonment of faith in Europe.

I found that the classical secularisation trend does not work as it used to. The case of the US sheds some light on this. Much of the 20th-century growth of conservative Protestant denominations could have been lost to secularism or to more liberal, higher status sects like the Episcopalians, as conservative Protestants became better educated, wealthier and more urban. What impeded such an "assimilation" of conservative Protestants into more liberal theologies was a disruption of the pattern linking social and religious mobility. Conservative Protestants, once content to be led by an urbane liberal-Protestant elite, became increasingly conscious of their group identity. They began to reject the leadership of liberal Protestants, starting in the 1920s with their secession from the Federal Council of Churches. This intensified after 1970 with the so-called "culture wars." Liberal theologies and secularism came to be typecast as the malign "other" against which true Christians should mobilise. As evangelicals gained in self-consciousness, they increasingly erected communal boundaries—such as their own media—which could bind the generations regardless of education or wealth.

The value changes of 1960s America proved a high-water mark of cultural mobility that has been replaced by a cold war of value stasis. The pool of unselfconscious or moderately religious people is on the wane as the "extremes" of fundamental religiosity and secularism grow. When battle lines become firmly drawn, potential converts, like floating voters, dry up. A similar process seems to be occurring in Europe—as the religious become increasingly self-conscious of their unusual identity in a secular society, they become more resistant to secularisation.

Europe—especially western Europe—is seen as the world leader in secular modernisation, and is used as the model by Norris and Inglehart for their theory of secularisation. But if western Europe really is the trend-setter for secularism, there is a problem: secularisation appears to be losing force in its own backyard. Western Europe can broadly be divided in two. On the one hand are Catholic countries like Spain or Ireland, where religiosity is still high—around 60 per cent of the Irish population regularly attend church—and secularisation arrived only in the second half of the 20th century. On the other are the largely Protestant nations (including Britain) and Catholic France, which secularised earlier. But survey data from 1981-2004 show that in these latter nations, on average, postwar generations are no longer becoming more secular. It seems as though western Europe, with the possible exception of Italy, will converge towards a church attendance rate of little more than 5 per cent. However this will mask a much larger proportion—around half—who continue to describe themselves as religious and affiliate with a religious denomination.

These people, described by Grace Davie as "believing without belonging," are seen by some as carriers of a flimsy faith which will soon disappear, and which doesn't affect behaviour or attitudes. But if this is the case, how do we explain the fact that the fertility of these non-attending believers is much closer to church attenders than to non-believers? The non-attending religious are also significantly more likely than non-believers to identify themselves as ideologically conservative, even when controlling for education, wealth, age and generation. And the religious population has two demographic advantages over its non-believing counterpart. First, it maintains a 15-20 per cent fertility lead over the non-religious. Second, religious people in the childbearing 18-45 age range are disproportionately female. Offset against this is the much younger age structure of secularists.

The pivotal question is where the balance lies between religious fertility and religious abandonment in the secular cutting-edge societies of France and Protestant Europe. The population balance in these countries stands at roughly 53 per cent non-religious to 47 per cent religious. My projections, based on demographic differences between the populations and current patterns of religious abandonment, suggest that the secular population will continue to grow at a decelerating rate for three or four more decades, to peak at around 55 per cent. The proportion of secular people will then begin to decline between 2035 and 2045. The momentum behind secularisation in the most secular countries is a reflection of the religious abandonment of the pre-1945 generations, which overwhelmed the fertility advantage of the faithful. The end of apostasy in more recent generations means a population more religious at the end of the 21st century than at its beginning. As in the case of the Mormons or early Christians, demography rather than mass conversion will be the main agent of change.

This slow shift against secularisation would have only a gradual impact on the spirit of European society were it not for immigration. Immigration from Latin America has enabled American Catholics to grow despite losing far more believers to other denominations than they get in return. In Europe, immigration will similarly drive the rise of the religious population, especially its Islamic part.

In the US, we know that the population will be less than 50 per cent non-Hispanic white by 2050, but it is difficult to predict what proportion of Europe's population will be of non-European descent in the future because few European countries collect census data on ethnicity and religion. The occasionally cited figure of 30 per cent ethnic minorities in western Europe by 2050 is little more than an educated guess. One of the few countries to collect ethnoreligious census information is Austria, where a recent projection—based on a conservative estimate of 20,000 immigrants a year and various assumptions about religious abandonment and fertility—predicted that Muslims would make up between 14 and 26 per cent of the population in 2050, up from 4 per cent today.

Muslim secularisation would certainly alter this picture and forms a cornerstone of the Norris-Inglehart thesis. But a glance at the surveys of ethnic minorities in Europe reveals little evidence of this. In Britain, second-generation Afro-Caribbeans and eastern European Christians tend to be less religious than their parents but more so than the wider population. Yet there is virtually no change at all in the religiosity of Bangladeshi and Pakistani Muslims between the first and second generations. A recent study of Dutch ethnic minorities paints a similar picture of religious retention among Muslim groups.

The future response of Europe's lapsed Christian population to the growth of European Islam is difficult to gauge. Muslim growth may prompt a more strident secular nationalist response, as it seems to have done in France and Holland, or it may lead to a renewed emphasis on Christian identity (see the recent speeches of Pope Benedict). David Voas and Steve Bruce have found evidence for the latter in the 2001 British census, where the proportion of white British respondents describing themselves as Christian (rather than "no religion") was higher in districts with large Muslim populations. Christian identity does not equate to growing religious belief, but it eventually might. In ethnically divided Northern Ireland, sectarian conflict fuels far higher religiosity than in other parts of Britain. In either case, the combination of a fast-growing Muslim community and a stable or slowly growing Christian population will squeeze the non-religious, causing a major reversal of the secularising trends of the past 50 to 100 years.

Western Europe will initially emerge as a more religious society, but not a fundamentalist one. Even so, religiosity—as belief rather than attendance—significantly predicts a more conservative ideological orientation. Though we are unlikely to see the rise of evangelical Christian politics in Europe, we may find a long-term drift towards more conservative social values. Europeans will become more "traditional" on moral issues like abortion, family values, religious education and gay marriage. Inter-faith co-operation between Christians and Muslims on these issues is quite possible since ecumenical structures are already in place in most countries to facilitate it. The ease with which conservative Protestants and traditionalist Catholics and Jews have co-operated in the US may be taken as evidence. Much will depend on how these ideological synergies are channelled by parties and electoral systems in different countries, but by the mid-21st century, the peak of secular European politics will be long past. As in America, politicians will need to stay on the right side of religious sentiment to ensure they are not outflanked by their opponents.

Over the longue durée, the fundamentalist component of Europe's population may begin to increase for the same demographic reasons as in America. The diversity of religious groups in Europe will guarantee a separation of religion and state, but this cannot protect secular public policies from being eroded by a coalition of religious groups who have agreed to submerge their differences. Religious lobbyists, couching their claims in the rhetoric of relativism and diversity, will ask why the secular point of view on issues like abortion, blasphemy, pornography and evolution is the only one taught, aired or "respected."

Much will depend on whether conservative political parties opt for a multi-ethnic religious platform or instead mobilise a white nationalist majority across the secular/religious divide. The religious path is currently viewed as the more acceptable one. For the past 20 years, the Republicans have tried to unite whites and non-whites under the banner of religious conservatism and traditional values. Notwithstanding the current illegal immigration furore in the US, the party elite will almost certainly continue with this agenda. Many European conservatives will advocate a similar strategy as the only acceptable face of cultural conservatism in an increasingly multicultural society.

Demographic currents are carrying Europe towards a more American model of modernity. They also signal that current theories of secularisation need revision. Fertility in the developing world is falling rapidly due to urbanisation, but the World Values Survey finds that religiosity in these countries shows no sign of declining. The religious continue to have higher fertility than their secular brethren in the developing world, regardless of income or education. Though China will probably remain more secular than western Europe, this is unlikely to be true of Latin America, south Asia or the middle east. For them, modernisation is more likely to result in a US-style religious society.

Taking a step back from the figures reveals how the revival of religiosity in the west in the 21st century may reconfigure the Enlightenment belief in rational individualism. Thus far, liberal optimism has soundly defeated the naysayers. Marx's warning of cataclysmic economic contradictions between capital and labour proved as wide of the mark as Daniel Bell's fears a century later of the cultural contradiction between workplace discipline and consumer hedonism. Even rising crime rates and the breakdown of the traditional family do not threaten the liberal order. Francis Fukuyama's "end of history," in which liberal democracy and capitalism prevail, is premised on the superiority of western military technology, which enables individualistic societies to inoculate themselves against the challenge from more cohesive "barbarian" ones. Fukuyama is right. We may suffer terrorism, but terrorists cannot destroy our complex societies. Yet all this assumes the demographic sustainability of liberal capitalism. If Fukuyama's "last men" cannot replace themselves, they will be succeeded by those with a more traditional outlook.

The liberal-capitalist idea spread widely in the 19th and 20th centuries in part because it reduced mortality and freed the minds and resources of societies, allowing them to develop the advanced technology with which to defeat their religious and socialist rivals. It also enabled the demographic expansion of the west as infant mortality fell, prosperity resulted in earlier marriage and family formation, and new lands were settled. A recent study by Vegard Skirbekk shows that wealthier (presumably more "modern") individuals had higher fertility than the poor in Europe until the late 19th century. But starting in the late 19th century, the authors demonstrate that the European poor began to have larger families than the wealthy. Today, many of the demographic advantages that once accrued to liberalism have fallen away. Infant mortality is largely conquered, technology is globally diffused and the secular west is losing its demographic weight.

Perhaps we are entering a new stage in history in which the demographic flaws in liberalism will become more apparent, paving the way for the return of a communitarian social model. This may still leave democracy, liberalism and mixed capitalism intact. But it will challenge modernism, that great secular movement of cultural individualism which swept high art and culture after 1880 and percolated down the social scale to liberalise attitudes in the 1960s. Cultural modernism has accompanied technological modernisation in the west, while the non-western world has usually modernised its technology rather than its values. Daniel Bell prophesied that modernism's antinomian cultural outlook would prompt a "great instauration" of religion as people sought spiritual solace from the alienation of modern life. Bell has so far been proved wrong, but history may yet vindicate him as we bear witness not to spiritual revival, but to a religious reconquista based, ironically, on the nakedly this-worldly force of demography. End of the article

Comments 1 - 50 of 525 |

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1. Comment #221376 by equivocal20 on July 29, 2008 at 2:55 pm

 avatarYou people in the UK need to do something about this rise of Islam... and fast.

Other Comments by equivocal20

2. Comment #221378 by JAMCAM87 on July 29, 2008 at 2:56 pm

 avatarAbolishing faith schools would be a start but Tony Blair threw that policy out of the window.

Other Comments by JAMCAM87

3. Comment #221382 by Eshto on July 29, 2008 at 3:00 pm

 avatar"Electrolytes. It's what plants crave."

Other Comments by Eshto

4. Comment #221396 by Faux Snail on July 29, 2008 at 3:24 pm

 avatarUh-oh. This is quite the worrying article. I really, really hope he'll turn out to be wrong. But seriously, it looks like atheists and variations there upon need to make the voice of reason more politically insistent among the many versions of BS that crop up regularly. *sigh* I do what I can...

Other Comments by Faux Snail

5. Comment #221397 by Vinelectric on July 29, 2008 at 3:24 pm

 avatar
You people in the UK need to do something about this rise of Islam


Have more sex.

You haven't been reading the article. You need to out-sex religious people.

Don't ask me how you're going to fund bringing up your little army though, just do it.

Other Comments by Vinelectric

6. Comment #221398 by Nairb on July 29, 2008 at 3:26 pm

 avatarAnother scaremongering article on the population explosion (of muslims) that is supposed to swamp us all.

The occasionally cited figure of 30 per cent ethnic minorities in western Europe by 2050 is little more than an educated guess.

16-18 percent is more often cited I believe including by the European comission.All population projections are educated guesses.


TFR = Total Fertility Rate (total number of childern per mother)
The article does not mention that immigrants TFR aligns with countries in 1 to 2 generations and that Worlwide TFR is falling steadily.

Are we supposed to believe that Austrian muslim population will grow faster then Bangladesh, Indonesia, Egypt !
Their populations will grow about 50% to 2050 because of projected declines in TFR. But Austrian muslims are supposed to multiply by upto 7!
Its a little hard to believe without an extremely high TFR.

If worldwide TFR does not continue to reduce significantly over that time we will have 30 Billion on the planet by 2050.
But of course if he mentions this it would drown out any "crisis thinking" about muslims.


Even in the US, there has been an appreciable growth in the "no religion" population over the past decade to 14 per cent


I think Richard Dawkins tends to disagree.

Other Comments by Nairb

7. Comment #221401 by Goldy on July 29, 2008 at 3:31 pm

 avatarI remember reading, a long time ago, that skinheads and neo-nazis were also having large families in order to preserve the white race...

You people in the UK need to do something about this rise of Islam... and fast.

And what do you suggest? Exterminate them? Muslims in the UK apparently already feel alienated (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/1630513.stm and http://aevguild.com/2008/07/06/uk-muslims-feel-alienated.aspx), the age an imported wife can be has been raised (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1563905.ece), there is precious littel interaction with them, BNP is being voted for in greater numbers...and all this is doing is making them turn in towards their own community and making them easy targets for those that want to spread dissent by making the concept that they are the victims harder to deny.
Easy to make a flip comment - how about some suggestions instead?

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8. Comment #221406 by fizhburn on July 29, 2008 at 3:35 pm

 avatarSo. Free condoms for everyone, then?

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9. Comment #221408 by indigo.myth on July 29, 2008 at 3:35 pm

What a terrifying view of the future this article portrays. However there are some points that the study does not take account of. Medical research in the field of stem cells could produce treatments to increase longevity and cure many currently fatal or debilitating illnesses. The deeply conservative religious would not be able to take advantage of these treatments, without compromising their moral values, but social liberals would be able to. If this was the case, then liberals with access to such treatments would live longer, stay healthier, and subsequently breed more, then those religious that eschewed such treatments. The old value systems against stem cell research, would inhibit conservatives ability to survive illness that liberals would survive. For example, if a cure for cancer was forth coming, from an area of research deemed ethically immoral by the religious, then they could not participate in that cure, and therefore their numbers would be worn away by religious people simply dying of cancer. However, liberals, being able to have treatment for the disease, would survive their ordeal to reproduce. This would alter the demographic survival rate.

The chances of all nations in europe banning stem cell research, and other 'ethically hot potatoes', is very small, and it only takes a breakthrough in one of these nations, for a cure to ,say, cancer. For the effect I am talking about to be noticed. Whilst the religious cling to their ideals, and die of curable or preventable diseases (like AIDS in africa), the liberals will not die, and so shall tip the balance in the secular direction.

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10. Comment #221410 by Goldy on July 29, 2008 at 3:38 pm

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If this was the case, then liberals with access to such treatments would live longer, stay healthier, and subsequently breed more,...
Pensionable age has increased, or is going to be increased, many of my peers have only just started our families (in our very late 30s and early 40s).
Could say it is starting already :-)

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11. Comment #221424 by Mango on July 29, 2008 at 3:51 pm

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Nairb comment 6: Another scaremongering article on the population explosion (of muslims) that is supposed to swamp us all.


Did we read the same article? I didn't find that the author focused on Muslims to the exclusion of Christian denominations, and he certainly didn't monger anything. It struck me as a straight-forward assessment of demographic trends vis-a-vis religious affiliations in Western Europe and America.

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12. Comment #221426 by Eshto on July 29, 2008 at 3:51 pm

 avatar"The old value systems against stem cell research, would inhibit conservatives ability to survive..."

Nah, I think once the life-saving technologies come out conservatives will clamor for them just like everybody else.

That's how they typically work - criticize science while reaping all its benefits.

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13. Comment #221433 by admin on July 29, 2008 at 4:01 pm

 avatar
"Electrolytes. It's what plants crave."


"Brought to you by Carls Jr."

Exactly what I was thinking.
Josh

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14. Comment #221442 by Nairb on July 29, 2008 at 4:08 pm

 avatarIn France the TFR of women has gone up significantly over the past decade to close to the replacement level.
This in part was due to child support programs. These child support programs I believe are being copied in Germany now.

The picture is not anywhere as bad as this articles pretends.

All European countries need to boost child rearing in order to pay for pensions. The pension issue is far more serious. So there certainly will be a government sponsored drive to drive up bith rates.

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15. Comment #221443 by Apathy personified on July 29, 2008 at 4:09 pm

 avatarWell, only one solution - vin picked up on it
Breeding for Secularism
Let's try beating them at their own game, even if we don't succeed, at least we'll have had fun failing.

These articles alway seem to assume current trends continue - this is not always so.

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16. Comment #221449 by Goldy on July 29, 2008 at 4:20 pm

 avatarComment #221442 by Nairb
It was the money issue that stopped me and many of my friends from exploring the avenues of fertility in our relationships. Kind of hard to start thinking of a family when one can't afford a house and renting means having to share with others well into our 30s.
Have to ask, do modern Muslim families have many children? My mother came from a family of 6, my father from a family of 3. I am from a family of 2 and I am going to have 2 children. All the large Asian families I saw in Bradford had the children being my age - I cannot recall seeing a young Asian family with lots of children. Same in Austria with the Turks.
Being a meter reader in Reading (dark memories!) I had the opportunity to see a cross section of society. It seemed to me that the poorer members of the community had the larger families.

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17. Comment #221486 by HitbLade on July 29, 2008 at 4:57 pm

It appears that stupid people are naturally selected.

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18. Comment #221490 by Goldy on July 29, 2008 at 5:00 pm

 avatar
It appears that stupid people are naturally selected.
No, just stupid. They tend to die off younger...

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19. Comment #221502 by cyris8400 on July 29, 2008 at 5:09 pm

The author mentions sociologist of religion Steve Bruce. Anyone interested in secularization should read Bruce's "God is Dead: Secularization in the West." It's basically a big bitch-slap to academics like Rodney Stark, who argue for the inevitable resurgence of religion because people "need" religion. According to Bruce's able critique, Stark has vitalism-esque ideas about how religion-- and only religion-- can provide meaning in people's life.

Bruce notes that immigration is a whole other can of worms, though.

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20. Comment #221504 by trevok on July 29, 2008 at 5:11 pm

Aside from the fact that secularism is impossible today, "breeding for secularism" really makes no sense because it buys into the notion that religion is genetic. The goal of atheists should be to create an inclusive atheistic civilization, this means bringing religious into our milieu by aggressively pushing an atheistic agenda via education, political activism, sites like this, books like the God Delusion, etc. Trying to compete in terms of population is to adopt the cultural outlook that religion is genetic and separate, and thus the best atheists can do is try to get more of our kind and try to live off separately from the religious nutters.

In a globalized world though, there really can be no separation, everyone is in it together, so we have a battle for the planet shaping up so to speak. Add to this the fact that secularism is impossible today due to a lack of separation between public and private spheres and we get a totalizing mass society, which religious people believe must be religious. We as atheists have to work to make this an atheist society, appeals to leaving your religion at home or in your church are fundamentally irrelevant in today's political climate.

Political concerns are much more important than demographics on this issue. Remember that religion just 50 years ago, even in the Islamic world was on the verge of death, the resurgence isn't due to birth rates, although I do agree with the author that this is something we should consider.

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21. Comment #221511 by Mango on July 29, 2008 at 5:19 pm

 avatar
trevok comment 20 "breeding for secularism" really makes no sense because it buys into the notion that religion is genetic.


Maybe you misunderstand what the above commenters are saying; they would raise secular children, not *breed* them in the sense you mean. They would not fill their little minds with supernatural beliefs; nothing to do with genetics.

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22. Comment #221515 by cyris8400 on July 29, 2008 at 5:24 pm

I agree with Trevok that we shouldn't fight fire with fire.

For all that we talk about how hard it is to deconvert the religious, what is easier?: raising 3-5 kids to be skeptical and open-minded, or convincing 3-5 persons to become skeptical and open-minded?

And from there one can also raise one or two kids to be inquisitive and thoughtful and undogmatic.

Remember that sooner or later Malthus will have his revenge, for the simple fact that the planet is not infinite in resources.

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23. Comment #221523 by Luthien on July 29, 2008 at 5:40 pm

 avatar
In ethnically divided Northern Ireland, sectarian conflict fuels far higher religiosity than in other parts of Britain.


We are not more religious, we just tend to "claim" (or be claimed by) one side or the other. I can mark myself as Atheist on the equality monitoring forms till I am blue in the face, but they just ask what school I went to and mark me down as catholic. Even worse, most monitoring forms ask what religious community would you be perceived to be from, and then state that it is a criminal offense to lie?!?

Take it from me that Atheism is definitely on the rise here ;)

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24. Comment #221527 by 82abhilash on July 29, 2008 at 5:47 pm

They are using current trends to project how things will be in 2045? 38 years into the future? 38 years ago the year was 1970? How similar is the world of 1970 to the world of today? I was not there but people I know where and it is a lot different. If you go to developing countries the difference is even higher. In Middle East, things are changing extremely fast. Yet the change is somewhat planned. It is not anarchy, like it was during the cultural revolution in China.

That fact itself makes me optimistic. Religion thrives under two circumstances. One is a circumstance of constancy created by religious living itself. The other is a circumstance of utter chaos, which gives appeal to the constancy of religion.

But here we have a situation with social change driven in a quick, more or less orderly manner driven mostly by the strength of Western economic institutions, which seem to spawn similar ones in the rest of the world. In other words we are having globalization; not just a global market, but globalization even at the grass root level, even societies are becoming transnational. Nothing like this has happened before and scientific advancements are driving it. This is not the environment that religions evolved in. Hopefully this is not an environment where religions can survive. If anything it is proving very difficult.

Religious people may for now be having more children, but whether they will grow up to be religious themselves remains to be seen. That may depend a lot on what people like us do today.

Besides religion itself is changing so rapidly, I am not sure what problems the christianity and islam of 2045 can pose. Maybe they won't exist, or if they do, only in a non-toxic form. I do not know.

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25. Comment #221529 by fizhburn on July 29, 2008 at 5:53 pm

 avatarcyrus8400,
For all that we talk about how hard it is to deconvert the religious, what is easier?: raising 3-5 kids to be skeptical and open-minded, or convincing 3-5 persons to become skeptical and open-minded?
From an unscientific survey taken by me on this board, the first option is looking more and more inviting.

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26. Comment #221533 by AfraidToDie on July 29, 2008 at 6:03 pm

 avatarIts Nature vs Nurture, and I don't believe anyone knows which has the stronger influence. There seems to be a correlation between intelligence and secularism, but perhaps that is only in the field of science. I hope it is Nature that dominates, and that education will hold the key to reducing the number of supernaturalists. But, I'm not totally convinced that is the case. I know many very intelligent people who are extremely religious. Perhaps it is only the upper tier of intelligent people where secularism is dominant? Perhaps the true relationship is between those who are extremely logical versus those who are more abstract thinkers? The logical appear to be more skeptical, don't they? But even if that is the case, is logic learned or is it more strongly related to a person's genetic code? Perhaps exposure to many individual's opinions can override demographics, and if so, the Internet may be the turning point to enlightenment? So many questions; so few answers.

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27. Comment #221534 by nervouswreck on July 29, 2008 at 6:03 pm

 avatarPeople naturally want "comfort" in their lives. Religions provide that for many, although it is truly empty comfort when you really look at it. We need to expose the stupidity of religion to all and hope that those that can be swayed by reason will pick up the cause and continue to spread the message.
We're never going to "out breed" the religious because reason dictates having only as many kids as we can responsibly care for.

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28. Comment #221537 by Layla Nasreddin on July 29, 2008 at 6:10 pm

 avatarI'm fascinated by "secularization theory" and its discontents. I suppose it's clear that religion is not just going to "go away" by itself, much as we'd like to see this -- it will take effort. But the subject that really interests me is this:

Second, religious people in the childbearing 18-45 age range are disproportionately female.


Yes, the old "women tend to be more religious than men" pehonomenon (borne out by my own experience, though of course the plural of anecdote is not data!).

Religious lobbyists, couching their claims in the rhetoric of relativism and diversity, will ask why the secular point of view on issues like abortion, blasphemy, pornography and evolution is the only one taught, aired or "respected."


And, of course, the use of the concepts of "multiculturalism" and "diversity" as an "in" for conservative religious (Islamic, Christian, Jewish) norms. There are few things more hypocritical than a conservative imam/priest demanding "respect" for his (it's usually a male) views on grounds of "relativism" and "diversity" and "mutual respect"!

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29. Comment #221538 by thewhitepearl on July 29, 2008 at 6:12 pm

 avatarHow did I miss this comment?

It appears that stupid people are naturally selected.


[WHACKSMACK]

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30. Comment #221539 by cyris8400 on July 29, 2008 at 6:13 pm

fizhburn: unscientific, exactly.

I'm starting to think that people in general become dumber when taking a poll. Sam Harris recently had an article out about a small but appreciable number of confused individuals who in a survey said they were "atheist or agnostic" yet also said they "believed in a personal God".

And then I recall reading about a survey by a British newspaper that found about a quarter of Brits believed that Winston Churchill was a fictional character and about the same percentage believed Sherlock Holmes was a historical person.

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31. Comment #221540 by Goldy on July 29, 2008 at 6:13 pm

 avatarTWP, thought the bat was broken...

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32. Comment #221542 by stereoroid on July 29, 2008 at 6:15 pm

 avatarYasser Arafat used to say "The greatest weapon of the Palestinian people is our women's wombs"

The demographics of the Gaza Strip make for interesting reading:
48% of the population is under 14 y.o.
Growth: 3.71% per year
Average children per woman: 5.79

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33. Comment #221545 by thewhitepearl on July 29, 2008 at 6:17 pm

 avatarGoldy,

Apathy has been kind enough to let me borrow his cricket bat. It has more smack for the whack. That's why I went from "whack" or "smack" to WHACKSMACK. If you say it really fast (and really put the "whu" in "whack" it actually generates a precise sounding otomotopia.

Apathy left a warning on one of the other threads.

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34. Comment #221546 by Goldy on July 29, 2008 at 6:20 pm

 avatarAaaah, the things that happen when I wander off...

Incidently, if you are taking whacking implements, may I offer you a cane for whacking me. Just an ex-public schoolboy thing...

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35. Comment #221549 by J Mac on July 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm

 avatar
What a terrifying view of the future this article portrays. However there are some points that the study does not take account of. Medical research in the field of stem cells could produce treatments to increase longevity and cure many currently fatal or debilitating illnesses. The deeply conservative religious would not be able to take advantage of these treatments, without compromising their moral values, but social liberals would be able to.


I have to agree with Eshto. They may fight the development of science, but they have never refused its benefits.

A line from Lawrence Krauss in Voices of Science:
When the avian flu became a big issue in this country what you heard was the president say 'we have to quickly determine how fast it is mutating from birds to humans' you never heard one person in his administration say, 'you know, its designed to kill us.' ... we really need the science, its the only thing that's gonna save us.


When push comes to shove even G.W. looks to science.

The only way science would benefit rational thinkers only is if we start our own nation. So invest in NASA, make rockets, find new worlds, we gotta get off this theist rock quick!

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36. Comment #221550 by Goldy on July 29, 2008 at 6:30 pm

 avatarhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/earth/2008/07/30/scireligion130.xml

Interesting article. What all this breeding will result in - a bunch of healthy separate groups...

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37. Comment #221553 by fizhburn on July 29, 2008 at 6:35 pm

 avatarAfraidToDie, cyris8400,

Humans aren't particularly good at reasoning by nature. Most people require a lot of practice and training to get good at it. Our innate system runs on an agential/causal prediction model, which is equivalent to a stochastic engine whose answers are more reliable than not. Our brain is "good enough" to get around in the world and to predict the actions of animals and navigate social situations, mostly.

Michael Oaksford's article "Reasoning" in Cognitive Psychology (Braisby and Gellatly eds. 2005) has a rundown of some numbers and the bibliography will point you to the then-current research. (Sorry I haven't got a web link; you'll have to hit the library.) Apparently three percent of the population denies the validity of modus ponens.

Abstract reasoning is also correlated to IQ (Stanovich and West (2000)), although IQ is something of a fishy way to measure anything but "intelligence".

General reasoning can come apart from skepticism, so its perfectly possible for some intelligent people to hold religious beliefs firm and examine arguments in light of that; or they may have a form of compartmentalization or cognitive dissonance.

Curiosity and good reasoning are a recipe for tossing silly beliefs like religion, however. So it is good to emphasize the teaching of critical thinking skills to older children (from say 12 or 14 at the latest; introductory critical thinking is on about a level with algebra).

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38. Comment #221561 by Laurie Fraser on July 29, 2008 at 7:11 pm

 avatarDecorum, Goldy, decorum.

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39. Comment #221576 by Wosret on July 29, 2008 at 8:19 pm

 avatarWhat the hell? We can't even out-sex religious people? How is that? They are the ones thinking sex is all evil and nasty, not us. On, right, we don't treat our love interests like sex-slaves, and live-in maids. Forgot about that.

Clearly the fault lies with the females of the secular community. I never turn them down...

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40. Comment #221588 by Old Sarum on July 29, 2008 at 8:54 pm

I think the problem with the picture presented in this article is that it assumes that "religion" can always be reliably associated with sociopolitical conservatism. This not only ignores the liberal vs conservative tensions that exist in all but the smallest sects, it also discounts the possibility that entirely new & popular religious movements may emerge in the future.

We've become so accustomed to the "secular" face of liberal humanism that we've tended to overlook the likelihood that humanism itself will drift towards more religious manifestations with the passage of time & increasing sophistication of atheist/rationalist cultural perspectives. I suspect today's so-called "militant atheism" is the swansong of the old unimaginitive rationalist worldview that tends to define itself by its lack of beliefs, rather than a commitment to engage with (& provide better accommodation for) human needs & desires.

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41. Comment #221590 by qomak on July 29, 2008 at 9:08 pm

 avatarThere's no need to out breed the religious idiots.

Secular education about religion from early age for everyone will solve the problem. Nothing kills religion like knowledge and prevention of indoctrination.

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42. Comment #221594 by Goldy on July 29, 2008 at 9:20 pm

 avatarSweden is held as an example of atheism, right?
Sweden, by contrast, reversed the fertility declines it experienced in the 1970s through a different mix of policies, none of which specifically had the objective of raising fertility. Its parental work policies during the 1980s allowed many women to raise children while remaining in the workforce. The mechanisms for doing so were flexible work schedules, quality child care, and extensive parental leave on reasonable economic terms.

From http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9126/index1.html

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43. Comment #221618 by SamKiddoGordon on July 29, 2008 at 10:27 pm

 avatarHey guys.

I really would like to spend more time on the computer, and converse all day, and enjoy the insightful conversations. Time is the only problem. Turn the darn thing off once in a while get out there, educate the masses and stop "preaching to the choir". Thats all for now, I've got 5 kids to educate about the world. Changing the world to a secular one starts with all of us.

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44. Comment #221621 by Paine on July 29, 2008 at 10:58 pm

Goldy
Easy to make a flip comment - how about some suggestions instead?


I think some active efforts at integration are not too hard. Even at a personal level. If you start to treat people not as parasites, but guests, they'll be much more likely to assimilate. In other words make them comfortable but insist that they live by house rules.

I firmly believe that a lot of this Euro-liberal multiculturalism is just smug back-handed racism. AHA makes this point.
The attitude is, freedom of expression and women's rights is great for us 'Enlightened Westerners' but let these third-world immigrants wallow in their medieval barbarisms. Then we can pat ourselves on the back about how 'culturally accepting' and open-minded we are. Disgusting.

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45. Comment #221627 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 29, 2008 at 11:30 pm

*counts the ostriches*

This is the basic problem. If things go on like this, Europe will become Eurabia and the oldest civilised nations in the world will vanish, forever.

Islamization is a process that is very, very difficult to reverse.

You people in the UK need to do something about this rise of Islam... and fast.


Way ahead of you.

I think some active efforts at integration are not too hard. Even at a personal level. If you start to treat people not as parasites, but guests, they'll be much more likely to assimilate. In other words make them comfortable but insist that they live by house rules.


Excuse me, Paine, not wishing to be the Grinch here, but is there any evidence - at all - that Muslim populations integrate peacefully in the long term, any evidence anywhere on earth?

The 'integration' nonsense is just seen as what it is by Islam: a sign of weakness. Can I refresh everyone's memories about what 30% of British Muslim students believe is acceptable?

They are using current trends to project how things will be in 2045? 38 years into the future? 38 years ago the year was 1970? How similar is the world of 1970 to the world of today? I was not there but people I know where and it is a lot different.


Correct. Which is one reason you can't dismiss the horrible scenario of Shariah by 2050 out of hand.

Besides religion itself is changing so rapidly, I am not sure what problems the christianity and islam of 2045 can pose. Maybe they won't exist, or if they do, only in a non-toxic form. I do not know.


*sighs* Except that we have been waiting for Islam to be tamed by exposure to modernity for over two hundred years. Got that? Two hundred years.

As long as Islam exists, it will be a danger and a threat.

Apathy,

Let's try beating them at their own game, even if we don't succeed, at least we'll have had fun failing


Won't work. Secular people in general have too few kinds, and you'll be hard pressed to convince them otherwise. Also, Muslims practice polygamy.

Indigo

Medical research in the field of stem cells could produce treatments to increase longevity and cure many currently fatal or debilitating illnesses.


I know a bit about this stuff myself, but that's a dead end. The key point is the number of young we have. The young are the most important section of society, especially when it comes to conflict and war.

If anyone want's any real suggestions on saving our necks, here's one: End all Muslim immigration, expel all Shariah supporters, and conduct an aggressive campaign to show Islam for what it is, driving the faithful toward apostasy.

Of course, I know that there are those who'd rather see the lights go out - forever - in Europe that do that, but - and I say this with all my heart - the hell with them.

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46. Comment #221628 by paulwwww on July 29, 2008 at 11:38 pm

qomak;
Secular education about religion from early age for everyone will solve the problem. Nothing kills religion like knowledge and prevention of indoctrination.


Sounds like a pipe dream, personally think a realistic amount of history might help a bit. It's a shame most kids are indoctrinated before ever setting a foot in the classroom.

As a stab at humor, I have the urge to procreate everytime I get a glimpse of TWP's avatar.

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47. Comment #221631 by Barry Pearson on July 29, 2008 at 11:56 pm

 avatar
As evangelicals gained in self-consciousness, they increasingly erected communal boundaries - such as their own media - which could bind the generations regardless of education or wealth.... A similar process seems to be occurring in Europe - as the religious become increasingly self-conscious of their unusual identity in a secular society, they become more resistant to secularisation.

#221504 by trevok: In a globalized world though, there really can be no separation, everyone is in it together, so we have a battle for the planet shaping up so to speak

#221515 by cyris8400: For all that we talk about how hard it is to deconvert the religious, what is easier?:

#221527 by 82abhilash: In other words we are having globalization; not just a global market, but globalization even at the grass root level, even societies are becoming transnational.
A big factor that is probably not yet visible in generational terms is the rise in global communications, especially based on the Internet.

Future generations will grow up exposed to global information sources which will challenge the beliefs of their parents and local communities. This process has already begun. Evidence about the nature of religion in general, the origins of specific religions, and the nature of the universe continues to be made available globally.

It becomes harder each decade to sustain ideas about "the one true religion", with consequential assumptions about the characters (eg. morality) of people (religious or not) who refute that religion. This is because of increased contact with other people, and increased exposure to global information sources. Science continues to reveal the similarity and continuity of human beings through history and across the world. Global communications shows how many of the problems people face are the same across the world.

I believe this is more responsible for what people call "new atheism" than any real change to atheism.

Remember Monique Davis, member of the Illinois House of Representatives, talking about atheism:
What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous... It's dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists
Yes, it IS dangerous - for people who want to "erect communal boundaries".

#221542 by stereoroid: Yasser Arafat used to say "The greatest weapon of the Palestinian people is our women's wombs"

#221590 by qomak: Secular education about religion from early age for everyone will solve the problem
I have seen analysis that says that the best way of reducing population growth is to achieve education and financial control for women.

That has to be on the agenda for these and humanitarian and human rights reasons.

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

48. Comment #221632 by Old Sarum on July 30, 2008 at 12:00 am

"If things go on like this, Europe will become Eurabia and the oldest civilised nations in the world will vanish, forever. "

Hmm, let's see. Moderate muslims in Western countries openly support diversity of religious belief, free speech, multiculturalism etc etc. But according to Fanusi, this makes them particularly dangerous & subversive.

For his part, he certainly does NOT support diversity of religious belief, free speech, multiculturalism etc etc. But according to Fanusi, this makes him one of the few activists prepared to safeguard our tolerant, liberal democratic traditions, unlike those "PC" European secularists & their contemptible policies of um....well, tolerance, & liberal democratic traditions etc.

Fanusi's perspective seems rather incongruous in a site calling itself "a clear-thinking oasis".

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49. Comment #221645 by Serdan on July 30, 2008 at 12:31 am

 avatar"Moderate muslims in Western countries openly support diversity of religious belief, free speech, multiculturalism etc etc."

Then I have never met a moderate muslim.

"For his part, he certainly does NOT support diversity of religious belief, free speech, multiculturalism etc etc."

We shouldn't tolerate the intolerant. I'm with Fanusi on this one.

By the way, what's so great about "diversity of religious belief" and "multiculturalism"?

Other Comments by Serdan

50. Comment #221647 by notsobad on July 30, 2008 at 12:32 am

 avatarSomeone tell the author that you can be both secular and religious.

99.8% of the Turks claim to be Muslims, and it's a secular democracy.

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