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Thursday, July 31, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document What's wrong with science as religion

by Karl Giberson - Salon

Thanks to SPS for the link.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/07/31/religion_science/

What's wrong with science as religion

Piercing a Communion wafer with a nail and throwing it in the garbage, as one crusading biologist recently did, does science no favors.


By Karl Giberson

July 31, 2008 | PZ Myers is a true believer, a science crusader with the singled-minded enthusiasm of a televangelist. A biologist at the University of Minnesota at Morris and a columnist for Seed magazine, Myers has earned notoriety with his blog, Pharyngula, in which he reports on new developments in biology and indiscriminately excoriates those he views as hostile to science, a pantheon of straw men and women that includes theologians, journalists and churchgoers. He is Richard Dawkins without the fame or felicitous prose style.

Currently, Myers is under fire from his university and an army of righteous Catholics over his self-proclaimed "Great Desecration" caper. On July 24, he pierced a Communion wafer with a rusty nail ("I hope Jesus' tetanus shots are up to date," he quipped) and threw it in the trash with coffee grounds and a banana peel. The nail also cut through pages of the Quran and Dawkins' "The God Delusion." He featured a photo of the "desecration" on his blog, and wrote, "Nothing must be held sacred. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet."

Religion is dangerous, he wrote; it breeds hatred and idiocy. It is our job to advance humanity's knowledge "by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality." There is no wisdom in our dogmas, Myers warned, just "self-satisfied ignorance." We find truth only in science, looking at the world "with fresh eyes and a questioning mind."

As a fellow scientist (I have a Ph.D. in physics), I share Myers' enthusiasm for fresh eyes, questioning minds and the power of science. And I worry about dogmatism and the kind of zealotry that motivates the faithful to blow themselves up, shoot abortion doctors and persecute homosexuals. But I also worry about narrow exclusiveness that champions the scientific way of knowing to the exclusion of all else. I don't like to see science turned into a club to bash religious believers.

Also, Myers doesn't seem to like me.

When Salon interviewed me about my new book, "Saving Darwin," I suggested that science doesn't know everything, that there might be a reality beyond science, and that religion might be about God and not merely about the human quest for a nonexistent God. These remarks got me condemned to whatever hell Myers believes in.

Myers accused me of having "fantastic personal delusions" that could actually lead people astray. "I will have no truck with the perpetuation of fallacious illusions, whether honeyed or bitter," Myers wrote, "and consider the Gibersons of this world to be corruptors of a better truth. That's harsh, I know ... but he is undermining the core of rationalism we ought to be building, and I find his beliefs pernicious."

Myers' confident condemnations put me in mind of that great American preacher, Jonathan Edwards, who waxed eloquent in his famous 1741 speech, "Sinners at the Hands of an Angry God," about the miserable delusions that lead humans to reject the truth and spend eternity in hell. We still have preachers like Edwards today, of course; they can be found on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. But now we also have a new type of preacher, the Rev. PZ Myers.

Impressive scientific progress has spawned these new preachers in the centuries since crowds sat spellbound under the judgmental voice of Edwards. Like their traditional counterpart, the new preachers speak with great confidence that their religion -- science -- contains all the truth we need to know and all the truth that can be known. They call us to worship at the altar of science, a summons of which I am skeptical, to say the least.

The best-known men of scientific cloth are Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, but Dawkins' Oxford colleague, chemist Peter Atkins, gets my vote for best preacher. Atkins' provocative sermon, aptly titled "The Creation," invites the reader on a journey back to the ultimate origins of everything. On this journey we learn that "there is nothing that cannot be explained, and that everything is extraordinarily simple." Like the religious journeys Atkins invokes, it is a journey of faith, but not too much, since faith is like a tumor -- the smaller the better. "The only faith we need for the journey is the belief that everything can be understood and, ultimately, that there is nothing to explain," he writes.

After summarizing what we know about origins in elegant but breathtakingly speculative prose, Atkins borrows biblical language to address the deep question implied by his title: "In the beginning there was nothing. Absolute void, not merely empty space. There was no space; nor was there time, for this was before time. The universe was without form and void."

Eventually, as we journey with Atkins, stuff happens -- stars, planets, life, people, music, art, magazines. But how did it start? How did the universe go from being "without form and void" to this fascinating place we see today? "By chance" says Atkins, "there was a fluctuation."

Excuse me, Rev. Atkins, but could you please be just a bit more specific? Can you tell me what you mean by "absolute void"? Is that an empirical, testable concept? It sounds suspiciously like a metaphor for something in which you want to believe. As a matter of fact, the suggestion that nothing can naturally fluctuate into everything sounds a lot like a faith statement on a par with belief in God.

Stories like those told by Atkins in "The Creation" are passed off as science, as if our best physics, chemistry and biology lead naturally to these conclusions. The new creation stories are reworded to make it clear that these new scientific stories are replacements for their religious predecessors. Rather than "In the beginning was the word," where word, from the Greek logos, meaning "underlying rational structure," is identified with God, Atkins gives us, "In the beginning there was nothing."

Don't get me wrong. Atkins tells a great story. And telling stories is the way we communicate meaning, whether it's oracles making pronouncements or Carl Sagan explaining how the cosmos came to be. Sometimes these stories are true and sometimes they are not; sometimes we can't tell. But our human tendency is to embed meaning in stories, and all great preachers have been great storytellers. Jesus spoke in parables, not theological discourses.

Our affinity for such stories, says evolutionary psychologist Edward O. Wilson of Harvard University, is helped along by hard-wired religious impulses, created by millenniums of evolution. Wilson says our minds have "mythopoeic requirements" -- a need for stories that provide meaning and purpose.

Wilson's personal story testifies to the mythopoeic power of both religious and scientific stories. Raised Southern Baptist, he gave his heart to Jesus as a boy, and worshiped the biblical God -- until his studies at the University of Alabama convinced him that his religious faith was incompatible with his emerging new scientific faith.

Like the so-called new atheists, with their out-of-the-confessional aversion to traditional religion, Wilson now argues that if we are serious about the salvation of our race, we had better turn to science. "The mythopoeic requirements of the mind," he says in his Pulitzer Prize-winning "On Human Nature," "must somehow be met by scientific materialism." In "Three Scientists and Their Gods," Wilson told Robert Wright that we must learn to "worship the evolutionary epic."

Wilson, along with Atkins, Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and others, persuades us that science has, for thinking people, discredited religion. Nevertheless, they are quick to borrow from a religion they reject and take delight in using biblical metaphors. And as their science evolves to meet the "mythopoeic requirements" of their minds, it increasingly resembles religion.

During Wilson's teenage crisis of faith, he didn't just shrug his shoulders and bid his childhood Christian beliefs farewell, as he had done some years earlier with his belief in Santa Claus. Instead, he reconstituted his faith. He replaced the Genesis story with a modern scientific creation story; he replaced Christian ethical directives with ones derived from ecology; and he replaced the worship of God with the worship of the grand story of evolution. It was a new package, informed by better evidence and logic, and it appears to have worked well for him. But it does require faith that the study of nature can provide ethical directives, and not just descriptions of natural phenomena. Showing that species are going extinct faster now than in the past does not automatically obligate us to any particular behavior.

Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg, a physicist at the University of Texas, concludes "The First Three Minutes" with these cheery words: "The more the universe is comprehensible, the more it seems pointless." The universe that we optimistically call our "cosmic home" is nothing of the sort, says Weinberg. Our existence is a "more-or-less farcical outcome of a chain of accidents." The human story is a tale told by idiots suffering from delusions of both purpose and grandeur, and we are all actors in this grand farce.

Yet even as gravity pulls Weinberg into the black hole of bleakness, he suggests that there is, perhaps, a ray of hope -- a sliver of salvation -- in science, which "lifts human life a little above the level of farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy." Weinberg, like poor Job in the Old Testament, finds the world troubling. But his response, like Job's, suggests that the dreariness of the world has not completely extinguished his mythopoeic impulse.

Science, it would appear, has the raw material for a new religion. Trust traditionally placed in God can be relocated to science, which is reliable and faithful, as well as ennobling. Life can be oriented in a reverential way around the celebration and protection of the great diversity wrought by the evolutionary epic, a diversity that has produced creatures capable of reflecting on this grand mystery.

The grand creation story at the heart of this new religion of science inspires reverence among those invested in its exploration. The world disclosed in this story rests on a foundation of reliable and remarkable natural laws. These laws -- gravity tethering our planet to the sun, fusion reactions producing sunlight, chemistry enabling our metabolism -- possess the capacity to bring forth matter, galaxies, stars, planets and even life, all within a framework of natural processes that we can understand. And as we decipher these processes, their marvelous character only enlarges. No matter how well we understand them, they still evoke awe and surprise. The modern scientific creation story is so much more than a mere alternative to the traditional biblical myth of Adam and Eve; it is a genuinely religious myth with an astonishing depth and a proffered competence to meet the needs of the religious seeker -- the needs that draw millions of Americans to their houses of worship every Sunday morning.

The other pieces of the new religion also fall naturally into place. Our existence is a gigantic miracle, billions of years in the making, and way more interesting than any magical conversion of water into wine. The atoms in our bodies were forged in the furnaces of ancient stars that exploded, seeding our galaxy with rich chemistry. Our planet and its life-sustaining sun formed from this recycled stellar debris. "We are stardust, we are golden, we are billion-year-old carbon."

The scientific creation story, unlike the parochial accounts in our religious texts, belongs to all of humanity; it is the story of the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Jews, the Christians, the Confucians, the readers of PZ Myers' blog. We share this story with otters, giraffes, hummingbirds and the stars overhead. Atheist theologian Loyal Rue sees in the universality of the scientific story hope that a fragmented and suspicious humanity might find common ground on which to build a global village of trust and cooperation. "We are, at the moment, in many different places, with many histories and hopes," he writes in "Everybody's Story: Wising Up to the Epic of Evolution." "But we are now called together to one place, to a shared history and to a common vision of enduring promise. If there are saints enough among us, we shall survive."

So there it is -- a brand-new religion, courtesy of modern science. We have a creation myth, ethical directives and a meaningful place for humankind within the grand scheme of things. These are the ingredients that "constructive theologians" like Gordon Kaufman of Harvard Divinity School tell us are common to all religions. As a bonus, we have science to guide us into truth and assure us that we can find solutions to our problems. And we have inquisitors like Myers to ferret out heretics and martyr them on his Web site when they appear.

But is this going to work? Can a religion be built on nature and science, rather than God and sacred texts? And, if it could, would it be better than the old-fashioned religions it is replacing? If our present religions, like milk in our refrigerators, have all expired, we need a replacement to meet our mythopoeic needs. Can science do this for everyone, and not just the residents of ivory towers?

For starters, getting people to worship the new scientific creation story will be no easy task. A few dynamic speakers, like Brian Greene and, until recently, Stephen Hawking, can fill auditoriums with gee-whiz scientific stories of hidden dimensions and many universes. But most people prefer to watch sports and, perhaps not surprisingly, even more attend conventional religious services. Darwinism and big-bang cosmology have never been near and dear to human hearts, especially those filled with old-time religion. Sure, there are true believers who find these scientific ideas awesome in the most literal sense of that word. I am happy to place myself in this group. I can be moved to tears by the transcendent beauty of a math equation.

For science to become a true object of worship, it must elbow aside the reassuring and seductively simple belief that "God loves you." This deeply personal faith statement would have to be replaced with one that says something like: "The cosmos worked really long and hard to create you and you should be really appreciative."

But let's assume for the moment that this is possible -- that science can be canonized, moralized, transcendentalized and politicized into a replacement religion, with followers, codes of conduct, celebrated texts and sacred blogs, houses of worship, "saints" of some sort and inquisitors of another sort. And let's suppose that it's possible for this new religion to move out of the ivory towers of academia, where it lives now, to take its place alongside the other "world" religions, attracting hundreds of millions of adherents drawn from the main streets of the world and all walks of life. What would this new religion be like once it became institutionalized? After all, if religion fills a genuine human need, something has to fill the hole created by its passing -- something that appeals to billions of people.

Could we be sure, for example, that this new scientific religion would not give rise to the extremism and aberrant behavior that plague conventional religions? Would concern for the diversity of life, for example, inspire vegetarians to blow up slaughterhouses, and run the local butcher through his or her own meat grinder? Would reverence for the cosmos reinvigorate astrology? Would appreciation for natural selection bring eugenics back out of the closet? In other words, if science dismantles the traditional religious content that people use to satisfy their impulses -- many of which are quite passionate -- will we really be better off?

There is also no compelling way to get ethical directives from science. To be sure, religion has a version of the same problem, but that simply points up the challenges they both face, not the superiority of science over religion. Even Stephen Jay Gould, the peacemaking agnostic, suggested that religion should make the ethical calls.

On a practical level -- and I write as someone who works in the trenches at an evangelical college -- I am worried that attempts to treat science as if it is a religion will only drive the big, abrasive wedge currently between science and religion even further into the chasm of misunderstanding. What we should hope, instead, is that science can become a more congenial guest in the house -- church, temple, mosque -- of religion and not be so determined to proselytize or even evict all of the current occupants. There is much in religion that need not trouble the scientist and much that the scientist can value. Scientists must learn to live with that.

In order for many of us to truly feel at home in the universe so grandly described by science, that science needs to coexist as peacefully as possible with the creation stories of our religious traditions. I share with Myers, Dawkins and Weinberg the conviction that we are the product of cosmic and biological evolution, that Einstein and Darwin got it right. But I want to believe that, through the eyes of my faith, this is how God created the world and that God cares about that world. Does this belief, shared by so many of our species, make me dangerous?

I am incredibly impressed with the achievements of science. But I don't think science is omniscient and I am not convinced that science will ever know everything. I am not convinced that science is even capable of knowing everything. That we can know as much as we do seems rather miraculous, in fact. Is it so dangerous to believe that there is a bit more to the world than meets the scientific eye, that behind the blackboard filled with equations there is a rational, creative and even caring mind breathing fire into those equations?

Comments 1 - 50 of 183 |

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1. Comment #222388 by Janus on July 31, 2008 at 11:56 am

 avatarPZ destroyed this article here: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/karl_giberson_strikes_back.php


Not that he really needed to. This Giberson guy admits that he's deluding himself in the next-to-last paragraph, thereby forgoing any claim to rationality.

Other Comments by Janus

2. Comment #222391 by Ishruul on July 31, 2008 at 11:59 am

 avatarLosing the battle before going to war?

Other Comments by Ishruul

3. Comment #222394 by movingshadow on July 31, 2008 at 12:03 pm

 avatarNobody says science knows everything, but it is the only reliable way to know anything.

Other Comments by movingshadow

4. Comment #222395 by saugbrewer on July 31, 2008 at 12:03 pm

 avatar
But I don't think science is omniscient and I am not convinced that science will ever know everything. I am not convinced that science is even capable of knowing everything.


It's a far cry from suggesting that the pursuit of science may never give us all the answers to positing a "rational, creative and even caring mind" behind our existence.

Other Comments by saugbrewer

5. Comment #222397 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarVery odd....

"But I also worry about narrow exclusiveness that champions the scientific way of knowing to the exclusion of all else."

I doubt you'd find a scientist who refused to consider your "other ways" of knowing.... but they better be good, because so far all the "other ways" have failed miserably while science has succeeded.

The author also doesn't seem to know the difference between myth and fact, as he uses them interchangeably.

"I don't think science is omniscient and I am not convinced that science will ever know everything."

This has a shred of truth... but being convinced or not is irrelevant. Science is NOT omniscient and it will never know ANYTHING. It is a process, not an entity capable of knowing or not knowing. I understand he's making a metaphor comparing science to a god... but there is his flaw: he assumes science is like a god, then demonstrates that we are using science as a god.

Utterly pointless.

Other Comments by J Mac

6. Comment #222422 by 8teist on July 31, 2008 at 12:25 pm

 avatar"But I don't think science is omniscient and I am not convinced that science will ever know everything."




This is the very reason I do not believe the claims of the creationist cabal.
It does not mean you stop looking for knowledge just because your idiot bible says ;god did done it.

Other Comments by 8teist

7. Comment #222423 by MuNky82 on July 31, 2008 at 12:25 pm

 avatar- Off Topic -

Ishruul - your avatar freaks me out, where is it from?

Other Comments by MuNky82

8. Comment #222432 by Ascaphus on July 31, 2008 at 12:30 pm

 avatar#4 Saugbrewer:
It's a far cry from suggesting that the pursuit of science may never give us all the answers to positing a "rational, creative and even caring mind" behind our existence.


Far cry indeed. But that's all the faithful have, so they'll keep going back to it. In that 'way of knowing' you don't need any evidence for your claim, just a lack of anything else occupying that slot. An empty space for god to sit.

Matt

Other Comments by Ascaphus

9. Comment #222440 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 12:33 pm

 avatar
An empty space for god to sit.


Between their ears?

Other Comments by J Mac

10. Comment #222444 by Oystein Elgaroy on July 31, 2008 at 12:36 pm

 avatarI have heard about these "other ways of knowing" for years, and I think it is time for the likes of Giberson and his kind to explain exactly what these "other ways" consists in.

Other Comments by Oystein Elgaroy

11. Comment #222454 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 12:43 pm

 avatarComment #222444 by Oystein Elgaroy

As a dogmatic scientist, you are part of the conspiracy to conceal other ways of knowing from the people.
And as a cosmologist, you are absconding evidence of the existence of alien civilisations.

I wouldn't trust your word in this thread.

Other Comments by decius

12. Comment #222455 by Cartomancer on July 31, 2008 at 12:43 pm

 avatarUtter twaddle the lot of it.

The main mistake Karl Gibberish makes is the assumption that religion and science are actually two completely different things catering to completely different facets of human life - a version of the NOMA argument. In fact it's not the case that science is trying to become more like religion, it's that religion is nothing more than failed science. Very bad science at that. Utterly and irredeemably awful science in fact.

Yes, we seem to have a narrative view of our world. We tell stories and make sense of our surroundings by stringing together our experiences into satisfying chains of cause and effect. But we do this because we want to come up with the true story, to understand how it actually happened, not because any story will do as well as any other.

We used to rely on religious stories and religious explanations for the world, not because they were good stories but because we actually thought they were true. Of course, this could either be metaphorically true or literally true, but the criterion was still truth value. Nobody has ever argued that we should prefer their religious account over its rivals because it's a better story than all the others - they always argue that their story is true. Even the silly christian apologist who spouts something facile along the lines of "I believe in the genesis account because it is such a magnificent and awe-inspiring story" is really saying "I think that magnificence and awesomeness of narrative are what determines the truth value of a hypothesis - the more magnificent and awesome, the truer it must be".

We still follow the age-old quest. We still seek after the truth. But over the centuries we've developed and discovered ever more effective methods to determine what is true. Those methods are now called science. We have sharpened, refined and regularised how we approach the quest, and it has paid massive dividends. Not only are we closer to knowing what the world is really all about, we know a lot more about what it means to know, and how certain we can be in any of our knowledge.

Yes, scientific narratives should replace religious narratives in the minds of mankind - though they should replace them not because they are better stories but because they are actually true. We can still retain the religious narratives as evidence of the workings of the human mind and the history of cultural diversity, but in a very real sense they have failed utterly to do the job they were created for - explaining how the universe came to be the way it is.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

13. Comment #222458 by saugbrewer on July 31, 2008 at 12:45 pm

 avatar#8 Ascaphus:

Agreed. The fact that this guy "works in the trenches at an evangelical college" is also interesting. I'm not sure how he manages to serve two masters: purporting to teach science and sculpting young minds to constantly question how the world works while actively buying into the least logical fairy tales ever dreamt up.

I'd suggest that he isn't serving at least one of these masters very well.

Other Comments by saugbrewer

14. Comment #222464 by Oystein Elgaroy on July 31, 2008 at 12:54 pm

 avatarComment #222454 by decius

How did you find out about the conspiracy to conceal the evidence for extraterrestrials?

Comment #222455 by Cartomancer

Brilliant!

Other Comments by Oystein Elgaroy

15. Comment #222469 by black wolf on July 31, 2008 at 1:02 pm

 avatarOystein,
this might help:
from bssk.co.uk

What then, is spiritual knowledge?.

The correct definition of the term is: "The experiences we have acquired on our journey of many incarnations to know what Unconditional Love is". A looser definition is knowledge of the workings of spirit.

We do not profess to have the complete answer by any means, but what we teach we might summarise as follows. Spiritual Knowledge is:

* Realisation that there are other dimensions outside of our five body senses.
* Realisation that we are a spirit or soul which continues beyond physical death and that spirit is part of the Source (God, Great Spirit or other preferred term).
* Acceptance that we have more than one life-time, indeed, many of them. Reincarnation is a key feature of the spiritual journey.
* Recognition that there is a purpose to our life here, which is set out in a life-plan.
* Acceptance that we have a spirit guide (or guardian angel); that he or she is with us at all times and influences our life.
* Recognition that all living things contain Universal Life Force (variously known as Chi, Reiki, Prana or Light).
* Realisation that our bodies are contained within an energy system, which when imbalanced, causes illness.
* The realisation that the planet too, is a living body and has an energy system that can suffer damage.
* Realisation that world religions are man-made, are often used for "control" and are not true spiritual knowledge.
* Discovering the workings of the spirit dimension, spiritual Threes, stages and levels, Spirit Council, spirit travel, life elsewhere in the Universe, the evolution of planets, energy grids and pathways.
* Refining the ability to be a healer of oneself, of others and of the planet by using one or several alternative therapies.
* Refining the ability to communicate with the spirit dimension and using that ability for the good of others.
* An awareness that all scientific knowledge is "imported" or "brought" to Earth from either spirit or other places.
* An awareness that humans are in the main, "young" spirit; that planet earth is a "nursery world" and that life on earth has much further to go in our evolution.
* Being able to recognise "unconditional love" as the spirit state and the striving to experience it on Earth as our task here.


If this information helps you, you've got issues.

Other Comments by black wolf

16. Comment #222470 by decius on July 31, 2008 at 1:02 pm

 avatarComment #222464 by Oystein Elgaroy

It was privately revealed to me by the foremost authority on alien civilisations, Richard Hoagland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Hoagland#Claims

Other Comments by decius

17. Comment #222472 by r3z3nd3 on July 31, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Boring as Heaven

Other Comments by r3z3nd3

18. Comment #222474 by kkelly on July 31, 2008 at 1:05 pm

* Realisation that there are other dimensions outside of our five body senses.


It's like these people don't undersand basic syntax.

Other Comments by kkelly

19. Comment #222477 by irate_atheist on July 31, 2008 at 1:07 pm

 avatar1. Comment #222388 by Janus -

Indeed he falls flat on his face. Fucktardism of the highest order. "I want to believe a bunch of half-witted bullshit because I want to believe it." If you gave Giberson an enema, you could bury him in a matchbox.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

20. Comment #222483 by fizhburn on July 31, 2008 at 1:12 pm

 avatar
They call us to worship at the altar of science
Bollocks.

Other Comments by fizhburn

21. Comment #222484 by Steve Zara on July 31, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Is it so dangerous to believe that there is a bit more to the world than meets the scientific eye, that behind the blackboard filled with equations there is a rational, creative and even caring mind breathing fire into those equations?


Yes, I say it is dangerous. It is hugely arrogant to think that the human mind should be able to understand the fundamental reality of the universe based on our current limited knowledge. It is also a very bad idea for anyone to claim they know the "mind of the creator" (as indicated by the words "rational, creative and even caring"). This is more that just wishful thinking, it can lead to delusions of ever-deeper understanding of this supposed mind, and the dangerous idea that one can know what the creator wants.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

22. Comment #222492 by Oystein Elgaroy on July 31, 2008 at 1:19 pm

 avatarComment #222469 by black wolf

I am relieved to say that this information was of no help whatsoever.

Comment #222470 by decius

Martin "The Crusher" Rees and Stilleto-Steve Weinberg will soon be knocking on Hoagland's door. He has come too close to the truth.

Other Comments by Oystein Elgaroy

23. Comment #222497 by irate_atheist on July 31, 2008 at 1:22 pm

 avatarSteve - Good evening squire. I couldn't agree more but I could add a lot.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

24. Comment #222498 by kaeru on July 31, 2008 at 1:24 pm

<off-topic>

MuNky82: Smile.

</off-topic>

Other Comments by kaeru

25. Comment #222507 by fizhburn on July 31, 2008 at 1:38 pm

 avatarI'd like one of these "other ways of knowing" people to give a clear explanation of what, besides the evidence of the senses (plus whatever a priori stuff we get from brain structure), we have to work with. How does that evidence (supposing it is evidence) provide justification for belief? What in heck is the epistemology of the "supernatural"?

Once again, someone is so sure that something exists or is true they fail to notice the bizarre ad hoc hypotheses employed to support that belief.

Other Comments by fizhburn

26. Comment #222511 by Eshto on July 31, 2008 at 1:41 pm

 avatar12. I agree, I don't see "science vs. religion", I see a lot of "human ideas".

Some of them are based on evidence and pan out in the long run, and some fail because they weren't well-reasoned to begin with.

Other Comments by Eshto

27. Comment #222519 by Corylus on July 31, 2008 at 1:48 pm

 avatar
For science to become a true object of worship, it must elbow aside the reassuring and seductively simple belief that "God loves you." This deeply personal faith statement would have to be replaced with one that says something like: "The cosmos worked really long and hard to create you and you should be really appreciative."
No, no, no!

'Worked really long and hard' implies agency. It implies intent. I see no evidence for either.

It does take some time to get your head around the notion that the universe does not have a mind. If this were all I could shrug and say 'Hmm, he just doesn't get it'. However...
I suggested that science doesn't know everything, that there might be a reality beyond science, and that religion might be about God and not merely about the human quest for a nonexistent God.
All sounds so reasonable doesn't it? In fact the first part of the sentence is reasonable, if you presume that he is talking about science as a body of knowledge. No-one would disagree that they are things left to be discovered.

However, then there is then a breathless bait and switch between talking about science as information and science as method.*

This man is smart enough to understand the dishonesty behind this tactic. If there is a "reality beyond science" then he needs to explain how he has privileged access to it, by what process he came to this conclusion and how others can test any claims he makes on the strength of it.

---

*We do have other methods than science of attempting to gain information, of course, (blind guessing is one of them) but scientific testing is our most rigorous method.

Other Comments by Corylus

28. Comment #222529 by black wolf on July 31, 2008 at 1:57 pm

 avatarApologist Greg Koukl wrote on his blog about this 'way of knowing'. His 'reasoning' in a nutshell is that intuition needs no justification because it can't be analyzed. Since this intuition frequently points to a sense of telos, we have a purpose. Since this purpose can only be explained through God, spiritual knowledge of God is valid.

This is just so fractally wrong.

Other Comments by black wolf

29. Comment #222531 by PristinePanda on July 31, 2008 at 1:58 pm

 avatar
I read about this guy on PZ Myer's blog Pharyngula. Apparently PZ Myers gave a legitimate but critical review of something this douche bag wrote and he got his feelings hurt. Now he's just trying to make some inane retaliation.



Myers's responded to him here:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/karl_giberson_strikes_back.php


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30. Comment #222532 by Jiten on July 31, 2008 at 1:59 pm

 avatarReligion as science? Yet again? Fuck off you fucking fucker.

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31. Comment #222542 by Oystein Elgaroy on July 31, 2008 at 2:11 pm

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There is also no compelling way to get ethical directives from science.


Maybe not, but there is also overwhelming evidence that religion is even less helpful in this respect.

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32. Comment #222547 by mrjonno on July 31, 2008 at 2:18 pm

Science does not have the answer for everything however religion has the answer to absolutely nothing at all.

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33. Comment #222554 by Darwin's badger on July 31, 2008 at 2:26 pm

 avatarUtter arse gravy.

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34. Comment #222560 by robotaholic on July 31, 2008 at 2:31 pm

 avatarIf being religious is some sort of good thing, why does he keep comparing his enemies (or at least people he is critical of) to priests or Steven Weinburg to Job?

There is also no compelling way to get ethical directives from science.


I think Patricia Churchland would beg to differ-

And besides... like Richard Dawkins says "wherever else our ethics come from - it CERTAINLY isn't coming from religion - in fact the way the religious pick & choose which biblical things to follow sort of proves they don't get them from scripture...

AND ANOTHER THING -
I can be moved to tears by the transcendent beauty of a math equation.


-you're a weirdo...

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35. Comment #222562 by Vinelectric on July 31, 2008 at 2:35 pm

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I am not convinced that science is even capable of knowing everything.


So, we need to make the rest up. A very good excuse, that is.

If the writer has any understanding of the concept of "worship" in the Judaeo-Christian sense viz the duality of love and fear of the object of worship, the root word in Hebrew denoting "service"..etc he would not be confusing the religious worhip of God with the feelings of awe and wonder that science can induce in those who come to understand it.

Rubbish.

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36. Comment #222580 by PristinePanda on July 31, 2008 at 2:48 pm

 avatarI used to think Salon.com was a fairly respectable publication (not knowing much about it).

Now I have to conclude that it's gone down to the level of The National Enquirer when it posts this type of article on the front page.



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37. Comment #222592 by rod-the-farmer on July 31, 2008 at 3:06 pm

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The human story is a tale told by idiots suffering from delusions of both purpose and grandeur, and we are all actors in this grand farce.

This is a pretty good description of religion, telling us all we have a purpose here on earth. But then he DOES work at an evangelical college. Can you teach Physics to evangelicals without stumbling over the age of the universe question ?

I get the impression he feels there must be a purpose to our existence, and the only place this can be found is in religion. Science can't do this, it seems to him. Sorry, I do not agree. I can easily imagine someone thinking there is NO purpose to Life at all, at least in the terms religion uses. I can just as easily think of someone who discards religion as the source for such a belief in the "purpose" of an individual life, while at the same time thinking while we are here, it is a good thing to avoid harming others, while trying to improve the lot of all. That would seem enough of a purpose, to me. If he is moved to awe regarding the natural universe, why drag bronze age myths into it ? We humans have a terrible tendency to say "If I don't know the answer to that question now, and I am an educated person, then therefore it must be beyond ALL our knowing."

Argument from personal ignorance ? What is depressing is that many of the people who take this attitude are highly educated scientists, who seem to forget that time marches on, and knowledge increases with it. I need to ask these people face-to-face, "If you had a chance to talk with someone like Ernest Rutherford, would you tell him he had everything right ?" He was very bright, but still had some things wrong, now that we know a bit more than he did, back then.

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38. Comment #222610 by AlanF on July 31, 2008 at 3:32 pm

Giberson's notion of faith is simply stupid. I don't need faith to hope that when I put my foot down on the floor it's not going to pass through. I know that it's not going to.

AlanF

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39. Comment #222667 by Laurie Fraser on July 31, 2008 at 5:09 pm

 avatarThis article is a kind of scientific (???) post-modernism - all explanations/narratives are valuable. Utter, contemptible bullshit.

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40. Comment #222673 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 5:16 pm

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There is also no compelling way to get ethical directives from science.


Just like Darwin's theory has no way of explaining the origin of LIFE.

Just like there is no way to get lemon juice from cheeseburgers, milk from pumpkins, or intelligence from a theist.

That doesn't mean we need to throw out science, cheeseburgers, or pumpkins. The theists CAN go however.

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41. Comment #222676 by Ishruul on July 31, 2008 at 5:23 pm

 avatarWhat trouble me with believers with their views against science, they don't realize that science doesn't thrive on rushed answer...unlike the bible and other crapnuscrip.

When science will explain all the universe and beyond, i can bet I won't be around to see it but I'll definitely win a 1$ against any theist when it will do.


re: MuNky82

He he I'm so proud of my avatar ;)
found it on koolavatars.com , 5 minutes search, cheers!

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42. Comment #222679 by phil rimmer on July 31, 2008 at 5:27 pm

 avatarGiberish

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43. Comment #222680 by BeyondBelief on July 31, 2008 at 5:27 pm

 avatarSteve Zara: Just gotta say, love the new avatar and hatless look! I think your comments are even better. :-)

Marketing, marketing, marketing. :-)

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44. Comment #222687 by phil rimmer on July 31, 2008 at 5:45 pm

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I can be moved to tears by the transcendent beauty of a math equation.

I was moved to tears by my maths teacher once. His name was Peggy. (He had a wooden leg) He put his un-extinguished pipe in his peg-leg side trouser pocket. For ten minutes it slowly smoldered away producing increasingly large clouds of smoke. We were in agonies, trying to answer his questions without giving the game away. I've never seen so many boys reduced to tears, biting hands and kicking each other under the desks. The mass detention was worth it.

Beautiful equation? Sure. This is astonishing.

e^(i x pi) = -1

EDIT for some reason can't write plus 1 equals zero, which makes it the more beautiful....

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45. Comment #222690 by Laurie Fraser on July 31, 2008 at 6:03 pm

 avatarLikewise, Phil - I had a maths teacher called Pop. He could write equations on the blackboard with one hand, while he would take his tinof Dr Pat out of his pocket with his left, undo the lid, extract a cigarette paper and a wad of tobacco, roll his smoke, pop it in his mouth, screw the lid back on the tin, put it back in his pocket, withdraw a box of matches, strike one, and light his cigarette, all without taking his right hand from the blackboard. We never ceased to be amazed, and would always give him a round of applause. (Shithouse maths teacher, though.)

Now, please explain for we mathematical idiots wherein lies the beauty of your equation.

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46. Comment #222710 by qomak on July 31, 2008 at 6:45 pm

 avatarJanus:

Thanks for the link. PZ pretty much tore him a new asshole. What a pathetic loser this Karl Giberson is.


Phil:

Nice post. Actually, I was exactly thinking about this formula as I was reading through this article. It has a breathtaking beauty.

I guess if we want to be a bit naughty, we can present this as a proof for God. What are the chances that four most important numbers of mathematics follow this relation! 100000^{-100000}! So God has created mathematics, QED.

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47. Comment #222717 by phasmagigas on July 31, 2008 at 7:07 pm

 avatarim not sure writing like this is even honest, i get the feeling its a popularity contest, you could go to an average 'party', babble that type of shit and have 80% agreeing with you mainly the religious, the relativists and the know nothings.

its also feels like they type of thing a mature theist might say when he/she feels like the only way they can justify their own religion is by putting a far more useful and powerful construct under the same umbrella: science is just a religion, its very useful and powerful, just like my religion, my religion is good!!

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48. Comment #222725 by Old Sarum on July 31, 2008 at 7:41 pm

This was an excellent & provocative essay up until the last paragraph or so. It's certainly true that people like Dawkins & Myers continually promote science as an alternative to religion, & it's hard not to interpret "alternative to religion" as "alternative religion".

While I don't think science itself has much going for it as a religion, I think Giberson has overlooked a more reasonable future possibility - the emergence of new religions that are genuinely compatible with science, & which avoid requiring their members to believe unbelievable ideas.

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49. Comment #222731 by trevok on July 31, 2008 at 8:02 pm

I think part of this attitude is explained by the segregation of disciplines in modern universities. People in hard science know nothing of philosophy (generally speaking and from personal experience, where my science degree didn't even have so much as an ethics class), and thus see their work as merely technical practices, divorced from the necessary perceptions (philosophy) that led to them. And conversely people in social science are fundamentally ignorant of basic scientific principles which allows mystery to seep in and thus gives religion an in.

I think the reason people like this author are so upset is because this leads to a mental dis-order. Perceptions and practices are not matching up. Science/technological practices are the necessary result of philosophy which properly speaking is inherently atheistic. This also explains much of the problem with Islamists, who readily use atheistic practices (technology), yet reject the atheistic perceptions (philosophy) which gave birth to them. You can't have it both ways, and this contradiction must be a constant source of inner turmoil.

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50. Comment #222750 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 9:20 pm

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new religions that are genuinely compatible with science, & which avoid requiring their members to believe unbelievable ideas.


Every definition I know of religion includes an aspect of supernatural. In what way would anything new that was compatible with science be a religion?

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