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Thursday, July 31, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Workers' Religious Freedom vs. Patients' Rights

by Washington Post

Thanks to BeyondBelief for the link.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073003238.html?sub=new

Workers' Religious Freedom vs. Patients' Rights
Proposal Would Deny Federal Money if Employees Must Provide Care to Which They Object


By Rob Stein

A Bush administration proposal aimed at protecting health-care workers who object to abortion, and to birth-control methods they consider tantamount to abortion, has escalated a bitter debate over the balance between religious freedom and patients' rights.

The Department of Health and Human Services is reviewing a draft regulation that would deny federal funding to any hospital, clinic, health plan or other entity that does not accommodate employees who want to opt out of participating in care that runs counter to their personal convictions, including providing birth-control pills, IUDs and the Plan B emergency contraceptive.

Conservative groups, abortion opponents and some members of Congress are welcoming the initiative as necessary to safeguard doctors, nurses and other health workers who, they say, are increasingly facing discrimination because of their beliefs or are being coerced into delivering services they find repugnant.

But the draft proposal has sparked intense criticism by family planning advocates, women's health activists, and members of Congress who say the regulation would create overwhelming obstacles for women seeking abortions and birth control.

There is also deep concern that the rule could have far-reaching, but less obvious, implications. Because of its wide scope and because it would -- apparently for the first time -- define abortion in a federal regulation as anything that affects a fertilized egg, the regulation could raise questions about a broad spectrum of scientific research and care, critics say.

"The breadth of this is potentially immense," said Robyn S. Shapiro, a bioethicist and lawyer at the Medical College of Wisconsin. "Is this going to result in a kind of blessed censorship of a whole host of areas of medical care and research?"

Critics charge that the proposal is the latest example of the administration politicizing science to advance ideological goals.

"They are manipulating the system by manipulating the definition of the word 'abortion,' " said Susan F. Wood, a professor at George Washington University who resigned from the Food and Drug Administration over the delays in approving the nonprescription sale of Plan B. "It's another example of this administration's disregard for science and medicine in how agencies make decisions."

The proposal is outlined in a 39-page draft regulation that has been circulated among several HHS agencies. The FDA has not objected, but several officials at the National Institutes of Health said that the agency had expressed serious concerns.

"This is causing a lot of distress," said one NIH researcher who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe internal discussions. "It's a redefinition of abortion that does not match any of the current medical definitions. It's ideologically based and not based on science and could interfere with the development of many new therapies to treat diseases."

Since a copy of the document leaked earlier this month, outside advocates and scientists have voiced growing alarm that the regulation could inhibit research in areas including stem cells, infertility and even such unrelated fields as cancer.

Dozens of members of Congress have sent letters of protest to HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt, as have scores of major medical and health groups that say their supporters have sent Congress, the White House and HHS thousands of letters protesting the proposal.

HHS officials declined to discuss the draft, saying it is in the very early stages of review. But HHS issued a statement that reads in part:

"Over the past three decades, Congress has passed several anti-discrimination laws to protect institutional and individual health care providers participating in federal programs. HHS has an obligation to enforce these laws, and is exploring a number of options."

The draft states that numerous cases have been reported of health-care workers being "required to violate their consciences by providing or assisting in the provision of controversial medicine or procedures." It adds that many states have recently passed laws requiring health plans to pay for contraception, pharmacists to fill prescriptions for birth control, and hospitals to offer Plan B to women who have been raped.

"In general, the Department is concerned that the development of an environment in the health care industry that is intolerant of certain religious beliefs, ethnic and cultural traditions, and moral convictions may discourage individuals from underrepresented and diverse backgrounds from entering health care professions," the document states.

The regulation would require any entity receiving HHS funding to certify that it does not discriminate against organizations or individuals who do not want to provide services they consider objectionable.

The most controversial section defines abortion as "any of the various procedures -- including the prescription, dispensing and administration of any drug or the performance of any procedure or any other action -- that results in the termination of life of a human being in utero between conception and natural birth, whether before or after implantation."

That definition would include most forms of hormonal birth control and the IUD, which most major medical groups believe do not constitute abortion because they primarily affect ovulation or fertilization and not an embryo once it has implanted in the womb.

The regulation would apply to anyone who participates in "any activity with a logical connection to a procedure, health service or health service program, or research activity. . . . This includes referral, training and other arrangements of the procedure, health service, or research activity."

If the administration decides to adopt the regulation, it would undergo public comment and further review before becoming final.

Critics argue that the broad definitions of abortion and the types of workers who could object would cover everyone from the top doctor at a hospital to the janitor.

Cecile Richards of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America said, "At a time when access to health care is at an all-time low, the idea that the Bush administration would be creating more barriers is frankly incredible."

The regulation could trump dozens of state laws that require health plans to cover birth control, pharmacists to fill prescriptions for contraceptives, and hospitals to offer emergency contraception to women who have been raped, critics said.

"You could imagine a group of people with less than honorable intentions seeking to get hired at a family planning clinic with the specific objective of obstructing access. Under this regulation, there is little you could do about it," said Jill Morrison of the National Women's Law Center.

Others said the rule could have additional implications, including justifying discrimination against gays, single women or others seeking health care.

"As soon as you have a definition in one part of federal law, it can become the inspiration for the reinterpretation of other statutes," said R. Alta Charo, a lawyer and bioethicist at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.

Supporters dismissed such predictions.

"This would essentially simply require people to comply with laws that they have been required to comply with for decades," said M. Casey Mattox of the Christian Legal Society's Center for Law and Religious Freedom. "That does not mean any organization or state can't keep doing exactly what it's been doing. It means they have to make room for people who have sincere moral or ethical concerns about doing something."

Conservative groups including the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Concerned Women for America and the Catholic Medical Association said the regulation is needed.

David Christensen of the Family Research Council said: "Health-care professionals should not be forced to engage in an action that they see is the taking of a human life. Federal funds shouldn't be used for that kind of pressure."

Christensen and others said the regulations spell out legitimate differing views about what constitutes abortion and when life begins.

Richard S. Myers, a law professor at Ave Maria School of Law in Ann Arbor, Mich., said: "Religious freedom is an important part of the history of this country. People who have a religious or moral belief should not be forced to participate in an act they find abhorrent."

Comments 1 - 50 of 74 |

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1. Comment #222404 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 12:14 pm

 avatarThis is crazy.

Medical professionals face ethical dilemmas all the time. They cannot "opt out" of making decisions. While I empathize with their struggle to uphold their own integrity they shouldn't get a get out of jail free card.

I can respect the doctor who refuses to do a surgery because he feels it is unethical. But prior to this he would then likely be fired.

If christians want to be brave and stand up for what they believe in they will have to face the consequences of their decisions just like anyone else.

Other Comments by J Mac

2. Comment #222410 by Mr0Joshua on July 31, 2008 at 12:19 pm

absolutely despicable! The idea that a health care provider should be able to put their own personal religious beliefs ahead of the well being or their patient is disgusting. Where does it end?
Next nurses who are Jehovah's witnesses will refuse to assist in operations involving blood transfusions, Hindu surgeons will refuse to operate on beef eaters, and Muslim ambulance drivers will refuse to transport a person with a seeing-eye dog.

Other Comments by Mr0Joshua

3. Comment #222428 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 12:27 pm

 avatarThey absolutely should not be able to put their RELIGIOUS beliefs ANYWHERE... well, I know one place they can stick 'em.

But their ethical beliefs by all means. But their ethical beliefs are not given any magical legal protection. So yes, they can stand up for what they think is right. Then they can get a job flipping burgers.

Other Comments by J Mac

4. Comment #222437 by Driver on July 31, 2008 at 12:33 pm

 avatarI had this song in my head as I was reading this article:

"Every Sperm Is Sacred"

Other Comments by Driver

5. Comment #222438 by catskill on July 31, 2008 at 12:33 pm

 avatarIn the future I can see this as a footnote in a textbook explaining how the US went from secular democracy to fundamentalist theocracy.

Chapter 4 Section 3 - Tracing early laws that eventually led to burning heretics alive in the US.

Other Comments by catskill

6. Comment #222439 by Sargeist on July 31, 2008 at 12:33 pm

 avatarJ Mac, although I agree with your main point, I differ in that I think that religious beliefs and ethical beliefs are strongly overlapping and correlated.

Other Comments by Sargeist

7. Comment #222447 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 12:37 pm

 avatar
religious beliefs and ethical beliefs are strongly overlapping and correlated.


I agree, that is true. And that is the problem.

Their religious freedom is protected by law (in america) but that does not mean that their ethical judgements are not subject to question.

Essentially this case would set a precedent for any theistic practitioner to get out of any ethical review by claiming religious freedom. Medical professionals are responsible for their decisions whether they are christian, hindu, muslim, atheist, or pastafarian; no excuses.

Other Comments by J Mac

8. Comment #222450 by Ascaphus on July 31, 2008 at 12:41 pm

 avatarAnd yet the faithful persistently ask "is it so dangerous to allow me to have my delusi...er, religion?"

Irrational is irrational. Any institution encouraging it should be held responsible. Perhaps if the superstitious were forced to sign a writ of responsibility for death or disability resulting from their inaction, then the hospitals wouldn't hire them in the first place.

More and more, when I see the ichthus or any sign of superstition, I take my business somewhere else. Doctors included. When I was searching for a primary physician, I made sure she was a scientist, first, last and without exception...

Matt

Other Comments by Ascaphus

9. Comment #222461 by Ascaphus on July 31, 2008 at 12:50 pm

 avatar#7 Jmac:

Medical professionals are responsible for their decisions whether they are christian, hindu, muslim, atheist, or pastafarian; no excuses.


Exactly, or they should be held accountable. And the standard against which their actions are judged is?...

Matt

Other Comments by Ascaphus

10. Comment #222463 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 12:53 pm

 avatarMatt,

Now THAT is a big question. Or at least it is if you mean what SHOULD that standard be. That standard currently IS a committee of their peers.

That standard never has been, nor ever should be religion.

Other Comments by J Mac

11. Comment #222479 by Cartomancer on July 31, 2008 at 1:09 pm

 avatarMedical professionals aren't forced to carry out procedures which might run against their ethical beliefs anyway. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads. There is already a perfectly good way for them to opt out of performing procedures they disagree with - they can resign.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

12. Comment #222491 by Cartomancer on July 31, 2008 at 1:19 pm

 avatar
Christensen and others said the regulations spell out legitimate differing views about what constitutes abortion and when life begins.
No they don't, they provide carte blanche for recognising illegitimate views about what constitutes abortion. The only legitimate views are those backed up by evidence.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

13. Comment #222493 by Don_Quix on July 31, 2008 at 1:20 pm

 avatarI am related to a pharmacist, and her opinion on this is that any pharmacist who refuses to dispense a legally-prescribed medication for any other reason than a genuine health risk to the patient should be fired and/or lose their license. Not because of their beliefs, but because they aren't doing the job they were trained and hired to do.

Other Comments by Don_Quix

14. Comment #222496 by irate_atheist on July 31, 2008 at 1:21 pm

 avatar
Richard S. Myers, a law professor at Ave Maria School of Law in Ann Arbor, Mich., said: "Religious freedom is an important part of the history of this country. People who have a religious or moral belief should not be forced to participate in an act they find abhorrent."
Indeed not. They should fuck off and do a job commensurate with the level of wilful ignorance they show. Shovelling pig shit, for example.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

15. Comment #222502 by macros_man on July 31, 2008 at 1:31 pm

 avatarI would like to know whether this bill balances non-discrimination of patients with that of health-care professionals.

If the bill also dictated that no medical facility could discriminate against a patient's desire for a particular kind of treatment, then I think this is workable.

For example - if you had a clinic where some doctors refused to hand out birth control, then that same clinic would also need doctors who _did_ hand out birth control - and whenever a patient came in who needed birth control, or who even potentially needed birth control - then the religiously-inclined doctors should be mandated to defer to the other doctors who are not so conflicted.

If they are going to make comprimises to respect the non-discrimination of healthcare workers, then they absolutely need to gaurantee non-discrimination of patients as well.

And a well-publicized and anonymous complaint system should be set up to punish doctors or clinics/hospitals which do not conform to this.


It would be nice if we could just turn away all healthcare workers who might ever discriminate against patients - but in a country where there is a great shortage of said workers, I think that comprimises like this could be workable.

It's probably better, in most cases, to have a sometimes-discriminating doctor, than to have no doctor at all. We just need to have safeguards in place to ensure that patients cannot be discriminated against - and should punish such discrimination to the furthest extent of the law.

Other Comments by macros_man

16. Comment #222506 by Celandine on July 31, 2008 at 1:37 pm

It seems to me that if someone is unwilling to do the job they were hired to do - e.g. dispense a legally prescribed medication - they should lose their job. Really very simple. Then they don't have to act against their religious beliefs, and patients get the care they need.

Other Comments by Celandine

17. Comment #222508 by Ockham on July 31, 2008 at 1:39 pm

 avatarif part of the service of a pharmacy is to dispense legally avaialble contraceptives (inc morning after pills), then an objecting christian has the full freedom not to take a job as a pharmacist.

a consumer has the full freedom to go to a pharmacy to collect their contraceptives and not to find a pharmacist on duty who won't give them what they are entitled to.

that simple.

Other Comments by Ockham

18. Comment #222513 by skyhook87 on July 31, 2008 at 1:43 pm

 avatarMy partner is a Registered Nurse that works with in the postpartum ward of a local hospital. She has an issue with her workplace that kind of / sort of goes well with this topic.

She has a moral issue with taking part in circumcisions. She finds the surgery to be medically unnecessary and very unpleasant. As of now, she has not voiced her complaints in a formal manner, but she has decided to work only on the night shift as circumcision are all performed on the day shift.

She enjoys the night shift, but she feels that it will eventually take a toll on her. The strange hours tend to disrupt her sleep patterns, etc.

Do you think she should be protected by a law similar to the one being proposed?

Any advice on how she should handle this situation?

Other Comments by skyhook87

19. Comment #222514 by cam9976 on July 31, 2008 at 1:43 pm

 avatarIf I am a doctor who is also a Jehova's Witess and believe that blood transfusions are evil can I refuse to give one to a patient and watch him bleed to death?

Other Comments by cam9976

20. Comment #222517 by contrarian on July 31, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Simple...

Religious convictions do not, in any way reasonably fathomable, trump ACTUAL people's health. As a medical care professional, you either accept this or you do not... and choose your profession accordingly.

While I think a committee of peers works quite well already, this being passed will bring all kinds of "in the closet" nutjobs out of the closet, just waiting to prove how religious they are.

This whole thing just yells, "ok, religious nutjobs, it's now okay to disregard human wellbeing once more... because a piece of paper, sufficiently blotted with religious language, says so"

FUCK

Other Comments by contrarian

21. Comment #222527 by Pattern Seeker on July 31, 2008 at 1:55 pm

 avatarJust wanted to relay this story...

My wife works as a nurse in L&D at a hospital. We discuss issues like this all the time, so when we had heard about this recently, we both weren't surprised.

In fact, just a few years ago, the hospital introduced a 'conflict of conscience' option allowing hospital personnel to sign a statement saying that they were uncomfortable with certain medical procedures based on "moral or ethical" grounds.

In other words, by signing this statement the health care worker was allowed to NOT have to perform duties he/she was uncomfortable performing based on morals/ethics, even though that was what their job entailed. In my wife's department this involves approximately 20 of 60 nurses. A full one-third! of the nurses have 'conflicts' with the performance of certain aspects of their job-delivery of babies and care for the mother. Un-fucking-believable!

Simply put, this creates unnecessary strain and friction between staff members because some don't have to perform duties that create this supposed 'CoC.' Granted, it happens rarely. But should it happen at all? We both feel that most of the nurses cite a 'conflict' simply to avoid having to do a job that can cause great emotional turmoil. Trust me on this one-I don't even work there and I feel my wife's emotional roller-coaster all the time.

In other words, when the going really gets tough, the 'morally/ethically' weak run-and-hide rather than face the job that were trained to perform. Pathetic!

Other Comments by Pattern Seeker

22. Comment #222535 by ivellios on July 31, 2008 at 2:00 pm

 avatarI'm sorry but shouldn't this be covered under the HIPPA act? Also, under the "Your rights end where mine begin." If I'm paying for a service, you work for me and I'll take my business elsewhere.

Basically, It's my prescription and none of your fucking business. Don't like it? get a job flipping burgers unless you're hindu.

This is insane! How hard is it to not get a job that comes into conflict with your beliefs? Don't be a pharmacist, be a dental hygienist. I'm an Ironworker and if I say that getting on the steel is against my beliefs I'm fired, as it should be. Do your job or get the fuck out!

Which brings me to my next complaint. It's not fair to patients. I'm done having kids. When I chose to get my vasectomy done and my urologist was based in a "catholic" hospital we had to schedule a time at a nearby outpatient clinic because, "The nuns would have a fit for vasectomies being done on the hospital campus."

What about my rights to decide to not have more children when I can barely afford the ones I have now. Of course, as my Grandfather, who was catholic, used to say. "Who are they to tell me to have as many children as god gives me? Are they going to take care of,feed and clothe them?"

I guess I could always have more and more and then get on the government payroll. That helps right?

Skyhook -

She needs to transfer out of the department if she wants days. That or learn to follow the wishes of the parents. It's a grown up world and there are sometimes things that we have to do that we don't want to do. She should have known about that before she got into that situation.

Other Comments by ivellios

23. Comment #222570 by amalthea on July 31, 2008 at 2:40 pm

 avatarI agree with most posts here (obviously, or I wouldn't be here) but I find myself thing.... "Hmmmm, what if I were asked to assist in a genital mutilation of any kind?". Yep, I'd put my foot down and say no. Then we look at the reasoning behind that. Such mutilation is cultural/religious and is not the same as saving the life of a JW who will die without a transfusion, or prescribing a morning-after pill to someone who has the sense to walk into a hospital/clinic and actually ask for it.

I'd be interested to see if there's been a medical ethics debate on the subject. Yes, we know that the US is a particularly litigious country, but we end up (in the UK) with similar practices eventually.

So, let's get this clear; saving lives is ok, as long as you save them in the right way, and the lives you want us to save.

OK, back to the point, performing abortions or prescribibg birth control; most doctors (in the UK anyway) choose a speciality, so don't go into OB/GYN if you have a problem with 'the people who pay your salary' asking for something you don't agree with on religious grounds, just go into urology. Then we won't have to take the piss, you'll be doing it for us.

A

Other Comments by amalthea

24. Comment #222591 by Kaitane on July 31, 2008 at 3:04 pm

i hope that the nearby outpatient clinic that ivellios was forced to go to wasn't too far away.
what if you live in a small town that has one doctor and one pharmacist? and what if they object to doing certain procedures and certain medicine? then you have no where else to go, unless you drive many, many miles to a different small town where you don't know if you are going to encounter the same bad situation. ok, you can drive to a larger city. what if you are young and scared and have no car and no money and can't take time off work anyway to go find someone that will help you? what do you do then?
like somebody mentioned above, there has to be a balance. if one doctor or pharmacist decides to "opt out" then there has to be another one available who wont.
btw, this scenario is a sad story i read about in a women's magazine. the poor girl involved couldn't find anyone to help her and couldn't take any more time off work. her boss threatened to fire her. she ended up having to give up her baby for adoption which was one of the most painful experiences of her life. why should anyone have to suffer this way?

Other Comments by Kaitane

25. Comment #222605 by rod-the-farmer on July 31, 2008 at 3:18 pm

 avatarRe Comment 21 by PatternSeeker

I suggest that anyone who has an ethical problem performing certain procedures mark themselves "off" for the period. The cut in pay should demonstrate how strongly they feel about opting out.

As for the circumcision question, I would state my position something like this...."I am opposed to genital mutilation. It costs millions/thousands of lives around the world, and is medically un-necessary."

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

26. Comment #222615 by earthling on July 31, 2008 at 3:39 pm

Here's the situation in Victoria, Australia (from an interview with an obstetrician who does perform abortions when the foetus is abnormal):

'Women in Wodonga - and in many parts of rural Victoria - will struggle to find a doctor who will carry out a termination because the pregnancy is unwanted. Dr Mourik and the three other obstetricians in Wodonga will not perform an elective termination because the procedure is frowned on in the conservative city. It's also a problem in other large regional centres, such as Bendigo.

"I've had a death threat," Dr Mourik said. "We had this gentleman who felt so precious about preserving life that he wanted to kill me, because I had a different view."

In Wodonga, women can cross the border to Albury for an elective abortion, but have to pay for the procedure in a private clinic. To have an abortion in a public hospital, women in the area have to travel the 700-kilometre return trip to Melbourne.

"We do not do social terminations in Wodonga full stop," he said. He said he started working in Wodonga 26 years ago, and decided then that, out of respect for a very Catholic community, he would not perform social terminations. "A third of the nursing staff were Catholic and I did not want them resigning."

Dr Mourik was also mindful that his work could have possible consequences for his two then-young daughters. "I didn't want their friends at school to yell, 'Your daddy kills babies,' so I chose not to do it," he said.'
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/agony-lack-of-access-linger-for-country-women/2006/02/16/1140064205073.html

Other Comments by earthling

27. Comment #222616 by skyhook87 on July 31, 2008 at 3:39 pm

 avatarivellios,

Can you see a distinction between procedures that are medically necessary or beneficial, and those that are not?

I see nothing juvenile about a nurse not wanting to take part in inflicting *unnecessary* pain to an infant's penis. As I understand it, nurses are there to aid in comfort and healing. Taking part in this behavior is not the grown up thing to do; taking action to raise the consciousness of others to the fact that this is religiously based and not medically based seems more prudent (for example).

Wouldn't you like to see healthcare professionals at least try to make changes toward caring for people's health rather than joining these myth based procedures or running away by leaving the department?

Other Comments by skyhook87

28. Comment #222625 by Pattern Seeker on July 31, 2008 at 4:12 pm

 avatarComment #25 rod-the-farmer

The problem is that most of the time when they opt "out" is in the middle of a crisis situation. (e.g.-A woman is pregnant and the child has had sonographic anomalies for weeks, but the mother insists on keeping the child. Later sonograms show the child to be severely encephalitic. The woman is now about to have an abortion performed at a late-stage to save her life. But when the anesthetist arrives she sees a heartbeat on the monitor and refuses to perform her duties, because of said "child" is legally alive. Nevermind the fact that the severe deformities that will definitely kill the child when born, but if the procedure isn't done the life of the mother is most definitely at risk.-actual case)

Now what to do?

In this situation another doctor ably stepped in and helped this woman in need. The anesthetist wasn't even reprimanded. The question then is, what about the patients who don't have access to good medical care or the choice to go to another hospital or clinic? Do secular or atheistic doctors have grounds to refuse medical care to people who do believe in a supernatural being? Where does it all end? A very slippery slope indeed.

Other Comments by Pattern Seeker

29. Comment #222626 by BeyondBelief on July 31, 2008 at 4:13 pm

 avatarMy concern revolves around small communities with no options. If one doctor or pharmacist opts out of providing legal services, that is trouble.

But in the case of pharmacists it is particularly egregious:

A pharmacist is a gatekeeper -- a licensed professional who fills doctors orders by making sure that the correct medicine is delivered to the correct person. Like it or not, the pharmacist is a mechanism in a system of health care delivery. It is NOT the pharmacist's role to decide which legal drugs, prescribed in confidence between a doctor and a patient, can or should be dispensed. It is the Pharmacist's state sanctioned duty to fill prescriptions; to make sure that controlled substances are controlled; i.e. given to those for whom they have been prescribed.

The proposed conscience "opt-out" is a mechanism for religious fundamentalists to impose their beliefs on others; to achieve by individual obstruction what they cannot achieve through democratic means. By asserting "conscience" as a legitimate reason to not fulfill the duties for which they are licensed, motivated defenders of the faith can bypass the FDA's declaration that certain drugs are safe and legal for sale. They can do an end-run around Supreme Court decisions that make birth control and abortions legal. Worst of all, they successfully inject themselves into a patient's chosen medical treatment, which is certainly a violation of that person's right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.

I could live with a conscience clause if the burden were placed where it belongs: on those who believe. If you conscientiously believe that certain drugs should not be dispensed, don't be a pharmacist.

Thomas Jefferson once wrote, "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." This proposal does BOTH, by enforcing one person's religious beliefs at the expense of another's chosen medical care, and doing it under the extortionist threat of withholding public tax funds to achieve this religious goal.

Other Comments by BeyondBelief

30. Comment #222630 by BeyondBelief on July 31, 2008 at 4:19 pm

 avatarWait, no.... I want this extended to all jobs.

"Yes sir, I know I joined the army voluntarily, but it is morally repugnant for me to kill, so I won't pull the trigger. I nonetheless insist you leave me here on the front lines, where my inaction may thoroughly endanger my platoon."

"Yeah, I know... serve and protect.. .I'm a policeman, but that guy's eating pork, and I'm Muslim so I can't touch an unclean person."

Etc., Etc.

Macros_Man in comment #222502 proposes a compromise. I submit that the compromise is already in place, for over 200 years... in matters involving civil government and the delivery of all regulated services, government and all of its agents shall adopt a universally secular, religiously neutral approach. In other words, we will maintain a separation of Church and State, since these matters are matters of public health, not personal faith.

Other Comments by BeyondBelief

31. Comment #222637 by ivellios on July 31, 2008 at 4:26 pm

 avatarThree words...It's...Her...Job.

That particular procedure is something that is no longer just religiously based. It is culturally based.

If her job requires that service of her, then it is her duty to put aside her reservations and help with the procedure. If she is uncomfortable with said procedure then she needs to remove herself from the situation. It appears that she has by going to nights, if she wants days then she needs to go to another department.

If she feels the need to be an activist and promote the disadvantages of something, she needs to do it on her own time.

I'm not trying to be a dick here but I feel the same on all issues and have this argument with my in-laws all the time. They are believers and Republicans. They don't like homosexuals, abortion, and various other issues. I constantly say, "It's none of your business." Don't like abortion? Don't get one. Don't like "the gays." I don't think that is an issue since I don't see two burly guys busting your door down to bugger each other in your foyer, so, it's none of your business.

My final advice to her if she has to help with the procedure and she has to pipe up...Push the anesthetic. I made sure they used it on my son.

Other Comments by ivellios

32. Comment #222640 by practicing atheis on July 31, 2008 at 4:27 pm

I agree with macros_man. i mean, that is the only compromise that i think is acceptable.

i wonder what the reaction would be like if the shoe were on the other foot. say if a doctor were to deny care to a 'believer' on the basis that the patient's suffering is a direct result of the patient's own god and the doctor would not want to infringe on said act of god. or maybe the doctor would just prescribe prayer for pneumonia and prayer for leukemia, and prayer for cancer ... all the while performing real medicine on the rational.

Other Comments by practicing atheis

33. Comment #222642 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 4:29 pm

 avatarI believe there are two issues that are getting confused here.

One, brought up with circumcision and other such things is a dispute on what the right course of medical treatment would be. I HOPE doctors and nurses will put their foot down and fight for what they think is the best treatment (or lack of treatment) for their patient. That should never be questioned, nor do I think this article is questioning that.

The other issue, which IS central to the article and the law is whether or not those who hold a different view of their employer are immune to feedback from the employer. Are these ethical views treated as unquestionable parts of someone's "religion" that cannot be questioned, or will we be able to engage if discourse on what the correct course of action will be.

If the legislation passes there will be no discourse, just a get out of jail free card satirized nicely above in the Jehova's Witness physician example.

Other Comments by J Mac

34. Comment #222651 by ivellios on July 31, 2008 at 4:36 pm

 avatarBeyond Belief -

Hear hear!

You reminded me that my wife takes "the pill." Not because of any risk of pregnancy, I've taken care of that already. (And Kaitane, it was about 60 miles from my house.) She has ovarian cysts that are controlled by the pill. Does the pharmacist have access to that information? Of course not, and if she is refused that medication he is frankly making a decision of life altering/taking consequences without caring that they don't have all the information and that the information isn't even their business. Where does it stop?

Just put the pills in the bottle and hand them over, forthwith!

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35. Comment #222656 by BeyondBelief on July 31, 2008 at 4:44 pm

 avatarPracticing Atheis...

Your analogy doesn't hold. If a doctor refuses to treat based on what he believes are the beliefs of the patient, he's being a vindictive ass. This is not anywhere NEAR the situation actually being argued for by the Bush "What Constitution?" Administration.

In their scenario, a doctor who is requested for a service can say, sorry, I don't offer that service, and is not required to refer the patient to a doctor who does.

A pharmacist who opposes abortion can refuse to dispense legal, and prescribed medication.

This is precisely why Macros_Man's "comprimise" [sic] won't/can't work. It requires more and more bureaucracy to monitor and punish bad human behavior, when much simpler measures can completely simplify the issue.

If you take a job, funded and or regulated by the state, you are required to perform all of the duties of that job. If your religion prevents that, then you must choose how devoutly you wish to follow your religion.

You are NOT allowed to withhold treatement or information from others based on your interpretation of the Bible. You are ruled by the laws of this country. This country is NOT ruled by the beliefs of your religion.

.... yet. :-(

At root: This is the backdoor approach to undermining abortion rights. The more places we can get it established in law that a life starts at conception, the easier it will eventually be to argue on precedent that Roe V. Wade needs to be overturned.

A similar tactic has been used in the "America is a Christian Nation" argument. Get "In God we Trust" on the money. Get "One Nation Under God" in the pledge. Get that recent house bill... I believe HR 877 enumerating the ways that Christianity is embedded in the history of the nation... and eventually you win the war.

I fear we are not effectively fighting this rhetorical battle for the nation, for truth, for justice, for secular society. :-(

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36. Comment #222664 by WilliamP on July 31, 2008 at 5:04 pm

The bill claims to have the goal of stopping discrimination. Requiring all doctors to do the same work is not discrimination. What about Muslims and Jews who work as butchers and don't want to handle pork? Why not protect them too? Why protect only those with Christian beliefs about abortion? That's discrimination.

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37. Comment #222668 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 5:10 pm

 avatarI just thought of a potential analogy, and I'm not even sure what the law is on this:

Are airlines which serve meals on long flights REQUIRED by law to offer all the kosher, or pork free, etc etc etc options for those people who think their imaginary friend actually gives a damn what they eat?

Now I think it is in an airlines best interest to have these options, its just good business to offer what the customers will want. But for the government to regulate that would be foolish.

I suppose fast food places are required to have "salt free" fries. What the F#@K is that. You don't want salt, don't order a food that is served coated in salt.

Restaurants, airlines, and perhaps hospitals making options available can only be good for business, but it is wrong for the government to tell them that they are required to make such options.

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38. Comment #222669 by TIKI AL on July 31, 2008 at 5:10 pm

Wouldn't refusing to sell condoms and boner pills qualify as a "hate crime"?

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39. Comment #222674 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 5:19 pm

 avatar
boner pills


Thanks... I've had my good laugh for the day now.

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40. Comment #222682 by macros_man on July 31, 2008 at 5:29 pm

 avatar
This is precisely why Macros_Man's "comprimise" [sic] won't/can't work. It requires more and more bureaucracy to monitor and punish bad human behavior, when much simpler measures can completely simplify the issue.


Thanks BeyondBelief... I was worried that no one would catch my mistake, which I intentionally made to just test everyone's spelling ability.

...

In an ideal world, I agree with you completely, and think that any compromise on this front is going to cause a lot of issues. But in specific areas, where there already aren't enough people to fill positions, then I think comprimises :) like this might be the only solution - where the alternative is simply to have no doctors or other staff.

But for areas and locations where we don't have critical staffing shortages - such as in most nursing and pharmacologist positions - then I certainly think that we shouldn't compromise - or at least not mandate compromise.

There still might be some situations where compromise is feasible - for example, if you have a nursing staff of 50, and 5 people don't want to be involved in abortions... then maybe these nurses can work it out amongst themselves, whether they will let the 5 off the hook.

But in terms of the law, I think that all 50 nurses must at least "in theory" be willing to do the same work which is justified under their job description, and within secular norms. And if there ever arises a situation where these people will not do their job for discriminatory reasons, then they should be fired and have their licences or certifications revoked, since they would be incapable of fulfilling their duties.

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41. Comment #222683 by macros_man on July 31, 2008 at 5:36 pm

 avatarAnd to reiterate... I think that such compromise should only ever be available in situations where a single facility is able to have alternative staff on hand, who do not have such conflicts, and thereby present no practical difficulties to patients in getting non-discriminatory care.

So in drug stores, for example where there is a single pharmacologist on duty... then I don't think any such compromise should be made - and the pharmacologist should in no situation ever be able to apply discriminatory practices.

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42. Comment #222716 by mordacious1 on July 31, 2008 at 7:00 pm

 avatarAren't there some religions they don't believe in medical care at all? I don't want to get a doctor who says, "Let's all pray that he gets over his cancer, that's all god allows me to do."

And if someone doesn't agree with premarital sex? Sorry you've got the clap again Mr. Clinton, but I can't morally give you antibiotics, you've been a very naughty boy and god wants you to pay for it, that's why he gave you those yucky germs.

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43. Comment #222720 by J Mac on July 31, 2008 at 7:18 pm

 avatarIf they can make a christian doctor work on sunday, or a jewish doctor on saturday, then they can expect doctors to do their job regardless of their religion.

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44. Comment #222724 by DuckPhup on July 31, 2008 at 7:33 pm

 avatar""In general, the Department is concerned that the development of an environment in the health care industry that is intolerant of certain religious beliefs, ethnic and cultural traditions, and moral convictions may discourage individuals from underrepresented and diverse backgrounds from entering health care professions," the document states."

Oh, swell... they want to make sure that morons do not get offended by knowledge and reason.

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45. Comment #222740 by Christopher Davis on July 31, 2008 at 8:25 pm

 avatar"Chapter 4 Section 3 - Tracing early laws that eventually led to burning heretics alive in the US."---catskill

They'll never take me alive!

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46. Comment #222746 by theantitheist on July 31, 2008 at 8:37 pm

 avatarSkyhook,

I see your point entirely, what would happen if parents brought in a little girl and asked for her to be 'circumcised'. Medically it's completely ridicules. She's in a tricky one with this one though as circumcise is not illegal (at least the boy kind)

As for this whole thing, what a way to stop doing work and them not be able to sack you!! What would happen if a women had a kid because the pharmacist/ doctor would not give them the adequate legal solution, could they be sued for damages/ distress ect.??

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47. Comment #222787 by practicing atheis on July 31, 2008 at 10:56 pm

Beyond Belief,
Perhaps I was not clear enough. You made the point that i was trying to make, which is exactly that if the shoe were on the other foot, the outrage would be unimaginable. And rightly so. As in this case. Any doctor or pharmacist who would refuse to to their job because of a religious belief is as you say a "vindictive ass". The bottom line is that if you practice medicine in this country, you (should never) do not have the right to withhold medication or treatment to a patient for reasons that are anything but medical.

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48. Comment #222792 by Crono454 on July 31, 2008 at 11:04 pm

If you can't do the job that's required of you, work somewhere else.

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49. Comment #222829 by Raiko on August 1, 2008 at 1:22 am

 avatar
If you can't do the job that's required of you, work somewhere else.


... or at least don't be surprised or whine if you get fired. Really. What if I tell someone my religious conviction forbids me to do any work 4 days of the week? Do I get to whine about being fired?

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50. Comment #222836 by Sargeist on August 1, 2008 at 1:37 am

 avatarThe difficulty nowadays seems to be that people see so many news stories about people getting away with not having to do parts of their job that they suddenly object to (pharmacists, supermarket checkout staff, marriage registrars) that they may think, "Well, this person is obviously not doing their job properly, but if I reprimand them, they might sue, I might lose, and I can't afford the risk."

This creeping acquiescence to religious attitudes is coming entirely from the wrong side. As others have said, if I want to be a butcher then I ought to find out what I might be required to do in that profession. If I don't like the idea of handling pork, well I should either start up own pork-free butcher's shop or change my career aspirations.

I am colour-blind. This means that my childhood dreams of flying fighter planes or being an astronaut were very unlikely to be fulfilled. Is this discrimination? Should I have been allowed to demand that people let me do any job I want, regardless of how well I can satisfy its requirements? Well, maybe if I wasn't white, made enough bleating noises, and threatened to kill people.

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