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Monday, August 4, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Do they really think the earth is flat?

by BBC News

Thanks to ThoughtsonCommonToad for the link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7540427.stm

Do they really think the earth is flat?

In the 21st Century, the term "flat-earther" is used to describe someone who is spectacularly - and seemingly wilfully - ignorant. But there is a group of people who claim they believe the planet really is flat. Are they really out there or is it all an elaborate prank?

Nasa is celebrating its 50th birthday with much fanfare and pictures of past glories. But in half a century of extraordinary images of space, one stands out.

On 24 December 1968, the crew of the Apollo 8 mission took a photo now known as Earthrise. To many, this beautiful blue sphere viewed from the moon's orbit is a perfect visual summary of why it is right to strive to go into space.

Not to everybody though. There are people who say they think this image is fake - part of a worldwide conspiracy by space agencies, governments and scientists.

Welcome to the world of the flat-earther.

Our attitude towards those who once upon a time believed in the flatness of the earth is apparent in a new Microsoft advert.

Depicting an olden-days ship sailing on rough seas, presumably heading towards the "edge of the world", the advert is part of a $300m campaign aimed at rescuing the reputation of Windows Vista by comparing its critics to flat-earthers.

Satellite era

But are there any genuine flat-earthers left? Surely in our era of space exploration - where satellites take photos of our blue and clearly globular planet from space, and robots send back info about soil and water from Mars - no one can seriously still believe that the Earth is flat?

Wrong.

Flat earth theory is still around. On the internet and in small meeting rooms in Britain and the US, flat earth believers get together to challenge the "conspiracy" that the Earth is round.

"People are definitely prejudiced against flat-earthers," says John Davis, a flat earth theorist based in Tennessee, reacting to the new Microsoft commercial.

"Many use the term 'flat-earther' as a term of abuse, and with connotations that imply blind faith, ignorance or even anti-intellectualism."

Mr Davis, a 25-year-old computer scientist originally from Canada, first became interested in flat earth theory after "coming across some literature from the Flat Earth Society a few years ago".

"I came to realise how much we take at face value," he says. "We humans seem to be pleased with just accepting what we are told, no matter how much it goes against our senses."

Mr Davis now believes "the Earth is flat and horizontally infinite - it stretches horizontally forever".

"And it is at least 9,000 kilometres deep", he adds.

James McIntyre, a British-based moderator of a Flat Earth Society discussion website, has a slightly different take. "The Earth is, more or less, a disc," he states. "Obviously it isn't perfectly flat thanks to geological phenomena like hills and valleys. It is around 24,900 miles in diameter."

Mr McIntyre, who describes himself as having been "raised a globularist in the British state school system", says the reactions of his friends and family to his new beliefs vary from "sheer incredulity to the conviction that it's all just an elaborate joke".

So how many flat-earthers are around today? Neither Mr Davis nor Mr McIntyre can say.

Disappearing ships

Mr McIntyre estimates "there are thousands", but "without a platform for communication, a head-count is almost impossible", he says. Mr Davis says he is currently creating an "online information repository" to help to bring together local Flat Earth communities into a "global community".

"If you will forgive my use of the term 'global'", he says.

And for the casual observer, it is hard to accept that all of this is not some bizarre 21st Century jape. After all, most schoolchildren know that ships can disappear over the horizon, that satellites orbit the earth and that if you head along the equator you will eventually come back on yourself.

What about all the photos from space that show, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the Earth is round? "The space agencies of the world are involved in an international conspiracy to dupe the public for vast profit," says Mr McIntyre.

John Davis also says "these photos are fake".

And what about the fact that no one has ever fallen off the edge of our supposedly disc-shaped world?

Mr McIntyre laughs. "This is perhaps one of the most commonly asked questions," he says. "A cursory examination of a flat earth map fairly well explains the reason - the North Pole is central, and Antarctica comprises the entire circumference of the Earth. Circumnavigation is a case of travelling in a very broad circle across the surface of the Earth."

Ultimate conspiracy

Mr Davis says that being a flat-earther doesn't have an impact on how one lives every day. "As a rule of thumb, we don't have any fears of aircraft or other modes of transportation," he says.

Christine Garwood, author of Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea, is not surprised that flat-earthers simply write off the evidence that our planet is globular.

"Flat earth theory is one of the ultimate conspiracy theories," she says.

"Naturally, flat earth believers think that the moon landings were faked, as were the photographs of earth from space."

Perhaps one of the most surprising things in Garwood's book is her revelation that flat earth theory is a relatively modern phenomenon.

Ms Garwood says it is an "historic fallacy" that everyone from ancient times to the Dark Ages believed the earth to be flat, and were only disabused of this "mad idea" once Christopher Columbus successfully sailed to America without "falling off the edge of the world".

In fact, people have known since at least the 4th century BC that the earth is round, and the pseudo-scientific conviction that we actually live on a disc didn't emerge until Victorian times.

Theories about the earth being flat really came to the fore in 19th Century England. With the rise and rise of scientific rationalism, which seemed to undermine Biblical authority, some Christian thinkers decided to launch an attack on established science.

Samuel Birley Rowbotham (1816-1884) assumed the pseudonym of "Parallax" and founded a new school of "Zetetic astronomy". He toured England arguing that the Earth was a stationary disc and the Sun was only 400 miles away.

In the 1870s, Christian polemicist John Hampden wrote numerous works about the Earth being flat, and described Isaac Newton as "in liquor or insane".

And the spirit of these attacks lives on to the present day. The flat-earth myth remains the outlandish king in the realm of the conspiracy theorist.

And while we all respect a degree of scepticism towards the authorities, says Ms Garwood, the flat-earthers show things can go too far.

"It is always good to question 'how we know what we know', but it is also good to have the ability to accept compelling evidence - such as the photographs of Earth from space."

Comments 1 - 50 of 122 |

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1. Comment #224260 by Tom Coward on August 4, 2008 at 11:43 am

These guys are obviously Poes, no?

Other Comments by Tom Coward

2. Comment #224262 by Telic on August 4, 2008 at 11:46 am

 avatarI vote we throw them over the edge.

Other Comments by Telic

3. Comment #224263 by HourglassMemory on August 4, 2008 at 11:47 am

Like Penn, from "Penn and Teller: Bullshit!" said: "You should be skeptical (in the case of the episode, of the government) but you shouldn't just make shit up."
These people take skepticism on a path WAY off.

The only way to convince these people, and conspiracy theorists who think there were no mooon landings, is to actually take them there, and put them on the surface of the moon. And then of course let them open their visor shileds and burn their eyes, and think they're in a sound stage, or perhaps even let them try and find the walls of the studio, let them walk to the horizon....then leave them there.

Also, flat earthers are all wrong according to this guy.
http://www.timecube.com/

Other Comments by HourglassMemory

4. Comment #224265 by Apathy personified on August 4, 2008 at 11:49 am

 avatarDamnation!
They are onto our beautiful conspiracy...we are ruined!
We set up the myth of a (roughly) spherical Earth to ...... , actually WHY would we set up such a conspiracy, to what end or purpose would lying about the shape of the Earth serve? I guess my thetan level is not high enough to know that yet.

I would love to say that this is a case for Poe's law, but the world does seem to be becoming stupider.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

5. Comment #224267 by eclampusvitus on August 4, 2008 at 11:51 am

Tennessee, eh?

ECV

Other Comments by eclampusvitus

6. Comment #224271 by Eshto on August 4, 2008 at 11:55 am

 avatar4: That's what I was wondering, don't conspiracy theories usually at least have a REASON for the conspiracy?

3: WTF???

...so the U.S. government is "anti-white" and I am a personified pyramid corner. And furthermore, my father is a fish.

Can't make this stuff up if you tried.

Other Comments by Eshto

7. Comment #224272 by 8teist on August 4, 2008 at 11:58 am

 avatar......fucktards....

Other Comments by 8teist

8. Comment #224273 by ivellios on August 4, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarSeriously, my reaction when reading this article.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahaha!

Other Comments by ivellios

9. Comment #224274 by gabbygabbygobbley on August 4, 2008 at 12:07 pm

Telic: lol priceless!

but seriously? what are these people on? hasn't fear of them but has he not been in an aircraft? and yes a popular misconception of medieval times (as a medieval student!) is that they thought that the world was flat. they well knew it wasn't, and much like the "discovery" of america by columbus (not even named after him , there's some clue!). America and the cicumnavigation of the globe was simply outside of their cultural horizon...they had no need for either, and were aware of the technical difficulties in achieving it. to add to this, most medieval societies didnt take the creation story literally...which says a lot for modern creationists...

Other Comments by gabbygabbygobbley

10. Comment #224275 by cerad on August 4, 2008 at 12:09 pm

 avatar
Tennessee, eh?

James McIntyre, a British-based moderator of a Flat Earth Society discussion website, has a slightly different take.

Britian, eh?

Other Comments by cerad

11. Comment #224276 by Scott McMeekin on August 4, 2008 at 12:11 pm

 avatarWow.

In the words of Adam Savage from Mythbusters,
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."

Some kind human being seek help for this poor fellow. I bet this guy votes, and would qualify for holding public office too.

Scott.

Other Comments by Scott McMeekin

12. Comment #224277 by qomak on August 4, 2008 at 12:11 pm

 avatar"People are definitely prejudiced against flat-earthers," says John Davis, a flat earth theorist based in Tennessee, reacting to the new Microsoft commercial.

He continued, "People usually ridicule us and call us ignorant and primitive. The media willfully misses our sophisticated belief system and just tries put us in bad light."

Other Comments by qomak

13. Comment #224278 by Eshto on August 4, 2008 at 12:14 pm

 avatar
much like the "discovery" of america by columbus (not even named after him , there's some clue!).


That and the fact that people were already living there...

Other Comments by Eshto

14. Comment #224279 by sent on August 4, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Excuse me for asking, but what is a Poe? A google search leads to many possibilities.

Other Comments by sent

15. Comment #224281 by gabbygabbygobbley on August 4, 2008 at 12:15 pm

the timecube mentioned by post 3 is f-in ace!

to conclude, as i find no words of mine suffice:

"I possess Math & Science Proof.
A Queer as God = Queer HIV."

Other Comments by gabbygabbygobbley

16. Comment #224282 by Eshto on August 4, 2008 at 12:16 pm

 avatar14: A Poe is a ghost in the Legend of Zelda series of video games.

EDIT: no seriously I have no idea what these people are talking about.

Other Comments by Eshto

17. Comment #224283 by Mango on August 4, 2008 at 12:17 pm

 avatarI think these people are playing an elaborate prank and that Andy Kaufman is behind it.

Other Comments by Mango

18. Comment #224284 by qomak on August 4, 2008 at 12:21 pm

 avatarPoe's Law from Urban dictionary:

"Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."


By the way, if you bother checking their forums and websites, they *do* have a sophisticated belief system. They manage to "explain" everything (gravity, why ships disappear from below, etc.) which is quite amazing.

To be fair, their belief system is way more sophisticated than any creationists. Maybe we should teach this controversy too.

Other Comments by qomak

19. Comment #224287 by Peacebeuponme on August 4, 2008 at 12:24 pm

You should go on to the flat earth website. Its really funny and quite interesting. Lots of people just go there to hone debating and critical thinking skills. They bascially play devil's advocate and some are quite skilled at it!

There's aren't many who really believe the earth is flat.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

20. Comment #224290 by Alastor on August 4, 2008 at 12:27 pm

 avatarI wonder what the flat-earth theory for time zones is, how can it be midnight in the US but noon in China on a flat Earth?

Other Comments by Alastor

21. Comment #224292 by aegis on August 4, 2008 at 12:30 pm

http://www.theflatearthsociety.net/forum/

I have a confession. I made the logo for this site, for filthy lucre. I was assured by the person that ran it that the "new" flat earth was going to break away from its old religious origins, and was mostly a "thought experiment". I can't believe that he actually made the site :(.

Call me a Judas in the cause of reason.

Other Comments by aegis

22. Comment #224294 by Dog Boots on August 4, 2008 at 12:31 pm

"25 year old computer scientist"!?!?

I would like to try some software he has made...

But seriously - if some of these people can be shown to be normal, intelligent people in most other respects (IF!) wouldn't they be a great potential lever for showing creazynists that ordinary, intelligent people can believe batshit insane stuff? This is one of the few laughs we can have in common with the creationists...most of them, I guess...

Other Comments by Dog Boots

23. Comment #224295 by mrtim on August 4, 2008 at 12:34 pm

Peacebeuponyoutoo -- I was just going to say the same thing. I met a couple of self described flat-earthers in the old Usetnet groups in the 90s, and they were mostly all about asking people why they believed what they believed. Of course almost everyone else would say that the earth was round, but not many were able to actually argue that position. And these guys were *good* debaters.

It was all very amusing.

But it always seemed that the smilies were there in their postings if you knew what to look for.

Other Comments by mrtim

24. Comment #224296 by gabbygabbygobbley on August 4, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Eshto

indeed...how can you discover a people, not only people but very complex societies and cultures? (although i do refute somewhat the clichéd over-the-top admiration for pre-hispanic american societies) how very arrogant of our european ancestors to assume this.

Other Comments by gabbygabbygobbley

25. Comment #224298 by Dhamma on August 4, 2008 at 12:42 pm

 avatarI think the flat-earthers are great.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if hardly anyone of them genuinely believe it to be true. I used to visit their society a few years ago, and it became quite apparent they didn't believe in it, It's more of a challenge for our minds - not to accept everything by default. Just like the programmer was saying in the article.

A flat earth is truly a ridiculous thought today, so it's quite impressive what they've accomplished in elaborating their idea despite all facts.

Really, I think it's important someone tells us not to just swallow all we hear from authorities. We know this from religious indoctrination, but also, we must question scientific discoveries as well.

Other Comments by Dhamma

26. Comment #224300 by Eshto on August 4, 2008 at 12:47 pm

 avatargabby: I also refute the over-the-top admiration, romanticism and idealization of indigenous cultures.

It's almost entirely a product of the White imagination. The American Indian is always forced to play the part of either a mindless, heathen savage; or the opposite, an innocent, childlike, primitive throwback who, unlike modern humans who have been corrupted by civilization, still lives in harmony with nature.

The former is exemplified by the Indians as monsters and bad guys in western novels and films.

The latter is where we got those idiotic "Crying Indian" anti-pollution commercials in the 70's (the Indian, by the way, was actually played by an Italian).

LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4ozVMxzNAA

Other Comments by Eshto

27. Comment #224307 by flobear on August 4, 2008 at 12:58 pm

 avatar
Apathy: WHY would we set up such a conspiracy, to what end or purpose would lying about the shape of the Earth serve
Obviously to make money. The oil companies are making a fortune making planes fly and cars drive in arcs instead of straight lines.

Aegis: I made the logo for this site, for filthy lucre
Heck, I'd be their spokesperson if it paid well.

Other Comments by flobear

28. Comment #224311 by Peacebeuponme on August 4, 2008 at 1:04 pm

Apathy: WHY would we set up such a conspiracy, to what end or purpose would lying about the shape of the Earth serve
Same is true for evolution. Creationists never seem to appreciate that.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

29. Comment #224319 by perkyjay on August 4, 2008 at 1:14 pm

In 1950 I was at university in England and was a member of the college's Flat Earth Society, which I hasten to add, had nothing to do with the shape of the earth, but which was a fine dining and wine appreciation society. On Xmas Day 1950 the Coronation Stone was stolen from Westminster Abbey,and the Dean of Westminster went on BBC following the King's Xmas message to announce that he would "go to the ends of the earth if necessary to recover the Stone. We sent him a letter on the Society's notepaper inviting him to
come to the college when he returned to tell us what it was like. Needless to say, he didn't
favour us with a reply.

Other Comments by perkyjay

30. Comment #224323 by Lev-CapeTown on August 4, 2008 at 1:17 pm

 avatarI find these guys no more funny than creationists. Not even the slightest bit more respect for either of them. I would even go so far to say that I would find it easier to swallow that the earth is flat then to swallow that some old man made it in 6 days...

Other Comments by Lev-CapeTown

31. Comment #224324 by gabbygabbygobbley on August 4, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Eshto: never seen that commercial, (im both from the UK and my milkman was probably still in college) it's pretty darn awful though, even if the message might be worthy!

Other Comments by gabbygabbygobbley

32. Comment #224325 by Nuspirit on August 4, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Not that I'm out to offend anyone, but if this is the first time you've heard of flat-earthers and their "society", you might want to think twice before posting a derogatory comment about them (you're their Internet counterpart, sort of).

Other Comments by Nuspirit

33. Comment #224326 by Sage on August 4, 2008 at 1:18 pm

"I came to realise how much we take at face value,"
"We humans seem to be pleased with just accepting what we are told"
I am SO TIRED of hearing this attitude from conspiracy theorists.

Other Comments by Sage

34. Comment #224330 by Apathy personified on August 4, 2008 at 1:22 pm

 avatarflobear,
Of course! The pieces of the puzzle are on the chess board now, all i need is proof that it was Elmo who killed James Dean, not a car crash, and i can take the whole system down.

Peace,
We made up evolution because we worship satan and we want to indoctrinate children with our insidious lies so they go to hell and spend eternity as slaves in the palace of Pandaemonium, not as servants in heaven.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

35. Comment #224331 by Peacebeuponme on August 4, 2008 at 1:22 pm

ggg
Eshto: never seen that commercial, (im both from the UK and my milkman was probably still in college) it's pretty darn awful though, even if the message might be worthy!
From the UK, but still use the phrase "pretty darn awful"?!


Quick say "bloody" or "rotter" and redeem yourself now!

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

36. Comment #224332 by gabbygabbygobbley on August 4, 2008 at 1:24 pm

yes i do hope indeed that this flat-earthers society is merely a debate-inducing thought-provoking society, te same as mentioned by others

however...as the fine lady Garwood says;

"It is always good to question 'how we know what we know', but it is also good to have the ability to accept compelling evidence - such as the photographs of Earth from space."

Other Comments by gabbygabbygobbley

37. Comment #224334 by D'Arcy on August 4, 2008 at 1:25 pm

 avatarNo doubt they have an explanation for gravity too, but I really can't be bothered to find out. In the words of John McEnroe "You cannot be serious!"

Other Comments by D'Arcy

38. Comment #224336 by Stafford Gordon on August 4, 2008 at 1:26 pm

No! You cannot be forgiven for employing the term "global". You've invented your own earth theories, now make up your own language; so that when you talk to yourself you'll be able to understand yourself.

Other Comments by Stafford Gordon

39. Comment #224338 by DamnDirtyApe on August 4, 2008 at 1:29 pm

I've read a bit of Discworld in my time. One thing has always struck me in that series of Terry Pratchett novellas about a flat world on the back of a turtle in space.

Why, with all the magic as science, do they not have a 'round earth' society in the Discworld?

They don't believe in God, Death, or the Hogfather, or the big elephants. And they cling to their ideals in the face of overwhelming evidence.

That would be great.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

40. Comment #224346 by Quetzalcoatl on August 4, 2008 at 1:44 pm

 avatarDamndirtyape-

Why, with all the magic as science, do they not have a 'round earth' society in the Discworld?


- Geek alert -

Actually, in "Small Gods", set in the land of Omnia, the people believed that the Discworld was in fact round, and dissidents would be tortured by being strapped to the back of a metal turtle that would then be heated. The dissidents' cry was "The Turtle Moves!"

I used the phrase for my blog post on the article, which actually beat RD.net for once (ha!)

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

41. Comment #224347 by sunnym on August 4, 2008 at 1:44 pm

 avatarDamnDirtyApe:
In Small Gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Gods_(novel) they do believe Discworld is round...

And of course, as the title suggests, it's very relevant to this forum...

Other Comments by sunnym

42. Comment #224348 by Notcrowingbutyawning on August 4, 2008 at 1:44 pm

 avatarI'm all for flat-earthers. They make the world go round... well, in 2D. By the way, an open question to all. Anyone else here ever read 'Scepticism Inc.' by Bo Fowler?

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

43. Comment #224350 by Apathy personified on August 4, 2008 at 1:46 pm

 avatarQuetz,
Your colourful cape and cowboy boots give you immunity from all accusations of 'geekness', that and the fact you are the bringer of tea.

Praise Quetz

Other Comments by Apathy personified

44. Comment #224352 by BigJohn on August 4, 2008 at 1:49 pm

 avatarI'm still trying to figure out the difference between Microsoft and flat-earthers.

Other Comments by BigJohn

45. Comment #224357 by sunnym on August 4, 2008 at 1:57 pm

 avatarDhamma -
As a philosophical exercise this is great, although the evidence that earth is round is _quite_ strong.

The greatest discoveries in science happened when a genius decided that something everyone else took for granted was wrong - e.g. the aether and relativity (*). Dark matter and... oh wait, that didn't happen yet.

(*) It's amazing how much the aether theory could be bent to still fit the observations... but this is _really_ offtopic

Other Comments by sunnym

46. Comment #224358 by theonlybap on August 4, 2008 at 1:57 pm

Does anyone understand at all what Dr. Gene Ray is talking about? Is it even possible? A Queer as God = Queer HIV is priceless though, whatever it means.

Now the flat-earth society is interesting and all, especially as a method of promoting skepticism, but...

Using whatever means are deemed necessary and relying heavily on a callous disregard for the lives and well-being of our members, we have slowly but steadily been spreading the news.


What the hell?

Other Comments by theonlybap

47. Comment #224359 by Tom Coward on August 4, 2008 at 1:58 pm

Ape (@39): There would be a "Global Earth Society" on the Discworld, except that everyone acts rationally there. I mean, if I had the evidence that they have on the DW of the existence of magic, gods, witches, etc., I'd believe in it all too!

"What's the sense in believing in gods? That would be like believing in the postman!" --Granny Weatherwax

Other Comments by Tom Coward

48. Comment #224362 by vesihiisi on August 4, 2008 at 2:00 pm

 avatarThe anger from the posters seems to indicate, how insecure they are with their spherical earth-delusion.

It is always painful to learn the truth...

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -Gandhi

Other Comments by vesihiisi

49. Comment #224365 by theantitheist on August 4, 2008 at 2:09 pm

 avatarIt IS just a big conspiracy though!

Seriously they even demonstrated it with a programme, thyink it was called ' Space Camp' where they put 20 average joes in space camp and then sent about 10 of them into space BUT it was just an elaberate set up. They showed you the simulator, the big tv screens with the (faked) earth rise video being broad casted and everything.

Everyone is on this conspiracy for profit except of course for me or youeerrmm you guys ain't getting a backhander off ESA and trying to bully the rest of us into just accepting this bullshit are you??

Other Comments by theantitheist

50. Comment #224374 by robotaholic on August 4, 2008 at 2:24 pm

 avatarthis article makes me proud that i can prove the earth is round and even it's size with a simple stick & the earths shadow & a measuring tape! - I know you've heard the story retold by Carl Sagan on Cosmos... but at least I can prove it to myself!

Other Comments by robotaholic
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