Wednesday, August 6, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Dawkin 'bout a revolution

by Ariane Sherine - Guardian

Thanks to Graham Dolby for the link.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/06/richarddawkins.religion

Dawkin 'bout a revolution
Join me on the atheist bus, Cif readers. You have nothing to lose but your fear of hell

In June, I blogged for Cif about the rather unsettling religious adverts which were running on London buses. These ads featured a link to a website warning that non-Christians would "spend all eternity in torment in hell" if they failed to recognise Jesus Christ other than at the height of passion. A solution, I suggested, was for 4,680 atheists to spread reassurance by each giving �5 towards a bus ad saying: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and get on with your life."

Given that the blog also featured killer orange juice, lions on the loose and a sticky dog, I didn't think anyone would take it very seriously. I thought perhaps there would be a few comments from theists saying I was a ridiculous human being, and a couple from atheists saying "they'll never let us do this". So I had no strategy or plan at all, and was very excited when dozens of comments began appearing under the article, saying things like "Stick me down for �50! Seriously, get the Paypal details up and let's do it" [batz].

I didn't want to collect people's money until it was clear that the atheist bus would definitely make it onto the road. I called Cif's editor Matt Seaton, who asked Terry Sanderson, head of the National Secular Society, for his thoughts. He posted a comment suggesting that atheists join the NSS instead of donating to the bus. And it would probably all have ended there, if a political blogger called Jon Worth hadn't Photoshopped a picture of the proposed bus slogan and asked if he could set up a Pledgebank page (meaning that people could just pledge their money instead of giving it immediately).

And so on June 20 the campaign began, with a deadline of Friday July 31 listed on Pledgebank — and very slowly, the wheels on the atheist bus began to go round and round. We had only 30 pledges to start with, no funding and no press (except for the original piece), but individual blogs began to report on the idea, with some creating their own slogans. Then Pickled Politics wrote about the campaign twice, Richard Dawkins' website publicised it, and last Thursday, Matthew Parris mentioned it in his column in the Times, suddenly giving us 200 more pledges. Over this period, despite many debates over what the slogan should be, the number of pledges jumped from 30 to 877.

The Daily Telegraph didn't think much of this when it reported the story on Friday, leaving out half the details. "Atheists fail to cough up for London bus ad" it announced, prematurely pronouncing the campaign "dead", while implying that the man on the atheist omnibus is tighter than the lid on a 40-year-old jam jar. "Too few non-believers actually put their hands in their pockets," the piece went on. "A specially-created website had attracted only 877 pledges when its deadline passed on Thursday, far short of the 4,678 people needed."

But while it's true that 877 pledges weren't enough to fund the ad, the fact that 877 atheists took the time to sign up to an unfunded PR-free campaign in just six weeks should hopefully be very encouraging to atheists everywhere. Thank you to all the Cif readers who liked the idea and signed up — although the slogan isn't on a bus yet, you helped it reach the national news, which has generated debate (on radio stations such as LBC as well as across the internet) and hopefully reassured a few people who are truly afraid of the idea of hell and retribution.

The wheels on the bus might have fallen off temporarily, but Jon Worth and I are planning to relaunch the idea in the autumn with a new website and a more proactive campaign. If you'd like to get involved or sign up, please email me at ariane@arianesherine.com, and we'll email you when it begins. God knows how far we'll get with it, but we could be Dawkin 'bout a revolution.

Posted: Wednesday, August 6, 2008 | Permalink

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1. Comment #225529 by black wolf on August 7, 2008 at 12:49 am

Can't a pledge campaign be launched internationally? It would surely be worthwile to spread the word through Humanist organizations, sites like Pharyngula etc.

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2. Comment #225530 by Sargeist on August 7, 2008 at 12:52 am

Aren't there any really rich, British freethinkers out there who could just pay for the whole lot with a day's interest on their savings?

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3. Comment #225532 by Quetzalcoatl on August 7, 2008 at 12:56 am

Black Wolf-

indeed. It would certainly get far more publicity, and there's no reason why a UK "consciousness-raising" exercise should ONLY be supported by UK atheists.

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4. Comment #225534 by Butler on August 7, 2008 at 12:57 am

I've sent an e-mail and I'm going to help out as much as I can.

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5. Comment #225535 by Steve Zara on August 7, 2008 at 12:59 am

I am not surprised there has not been a rush to fund this, fun thought it sounds. Atheism is not a movement, and does not instruct its followers to "spread the word". Also, most non-believers in the UK probably consider religion mostly harmless, so would not see any urgency in spreading this message.

Now, if there was something in support of evolution for example, I would find that a different matter.

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6. Comment #225536 by black wolf on August 7, 2008 at 1:03 am

Steve,
you're probably right about the attitude. Now, if only the religious would do something really astonishing, like pushing for more faith schools, creationism in science classes, wanted clergy in the House of Lords, ban theatre screenings of films...
what?
oh.

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7. Comment #225539 by Steve Zara on August 7, 2008 at 1:24 am

Comment #225536 by black wolf

For most people in the UK, those things are "under the radar". The attempts to ban plays and films is considered to be by just a few nutters. The UK has had a long tradition of supposedly relatively harmless faith schools. Creationism is (rightly or wrongly) not taught in science classes, and won't be in publicly funded schools because of the national curriculum.

These impressions may be wrong, but I believe they are the feelings of most people.

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8. Comment #225540 by dbunker on August 7, 2008 at 1:28 am

How about an ad promoting the FSM as the one true version of the one true religion.

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9. Comment #225541 by Sargeist on August 7, 2008 at 1:31 am

Well, if I win the million (or maybe the £500,000) on the Premium Bonds next month, I'll just pay for it myself.

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10. Comment #225544 by black wolf on August 7, 2008 at 1:33 am

The Skeptic Society is running an online survey on evolution. It is here .

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11. Comment #225545 by neander on August 7, 2008 at 1:35 am

I'm up for it, As an Aussie I'll pledge for the UK bus. Hopefully it'll get the ball rolling here. It doesn't have to be about "spreading the word" so much as creating public awareness and discussion. Where I live we're at 15% creationists (North Queensland) and it needs a bit of a stir.

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12. Comment #225550 by mordacious1 on August 7, 2008 at 1:49 am

Ah, we're back up. This site has crashed twice, and my post was the last one both times before the crash. Coincidence? I think not. It's a sign from god.

To join the new religion I'm forming, please send a check to....

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13. Comment #225562 by mordacious1 on August 7, 2008 at 2:25 am

Oh, and most of you won't have an avatar until I get the money.

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14. Comment #225572 by irate_atheist on August 7, 2008 at 2:50 am

5. Comment #225535 by Steve Zara -

Also, most non-believers in the UK probably consider religion mostly harmless

Indeed. And they are bloody fools for thinking so.

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15. Comment #225596 by Sargeist on August 7, 2008 at 4:21 am

One good thing about Muslims, then: they make many more people realise how ludicrous religion is.

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16. Comment #225600 by Chris Davis on August 7, 2008 at 4:25 am

S'funny. My first thought is - yes, cute gesture, count me in.

But then I get to thinking what the result might be: bus companies deciding not to touch it for fear of reprisals; defacement of every surface on which the message appears; boycotts organised by the godbotherers; bus company pulling out and suing for the cost of damages; sniggering in the fucking Telegraph at each new setback - including a few they make up on the spot.

And maybe one or two people who aren't already infected going 'Oh, that's nice!' while the rest either rage in righteous anger or smile because they already know.

However noble the underlying sentiments, this is quixotic and not a little provocative - and those it provokes are out of their minds.

CD

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17. Comment #225602 by Serdan on August 7, 2008 at 5:01 am

Chris, you're right. Provoking the religiously insane like that is going to cause trouble...

Eris would approve.

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18. Comment #225608 by padster1976 on August 7, 2008 at 5:38 am

I wonder who the other 876 were.

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19. Comment #225609 by Crosius on August 7, 2008 at 5:39 am

The article mentioned above points out the "lose/lose" nature of the enterprise.

If not enough atheists donate, the press writes an article snickering at the stingy, pinch-penny atheists and their inability to organise.

If enough atheists donate, the press writes an article whining about the mean-spirited, hateful atheists and their intolerant sign.

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20. Comment #225613 by thewhitepearl on August 7, 2008 at 5:49 am

Boltz and I inquired to the local transit authority about the pricing on ads and the cost for a billboard. We were hoping to use the Imagine No Relgion ad.

That'll start a riot over here, I'm sure.

[edit]

Coincidence? I think not

Me neither.

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21. Comment #225616 by Cartomancer on August 7, 2008 at 5:54 am

Well if we are going to send up the advertising habits of the religious, why not go for their original and very cheap old standby - the lunatic on the streets wearing a sandwich board?

"The end is not nigh. Now stop worrying and get on with your life."

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22. Comment #225625 by eh-theist on August 7, 2008 at 6:13 am

Comment #225600 by Chris Davis

Great points Chris - I'm sold! Let's do it!

Whoops.. you were suggesting otherwise? Sorry, I couldn't help but think you were listing all the reasons TO do it.

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23. Comment #225627 by NormanDoering on August 7, 2008 at 6:14 am

I never thought this was a good idea. I can't see it actually working to promote atheism -- it'll just promote a billboard shouting match with Christians that we will lose.

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24. Comment #225629 by phasmagigas on August 7, 2008 at 6:15 am

steve

I am not surprised there has not been a rush to fund this, fun thought it sounds. Atheism is not a movement, and does not instruct its followers to "spread the word". Also, most non-believers in the UK probably consider religion mostly harmless, so would not see any urgency in spreading this message.

Now, if there was something in support of evolution for example, I would find that a different matter.

i dont like the idea of the slogan as such but it seems that the intent is almost to prove a point (im not sure what point) rather than spread any word.

it does seem incredibly silly (and thats perhaps the point) and is rather like giving 5 pounds to say 'i dont believe in santa'.

im starting to despise the whole divison between atheism/belief, i simply wish religious people would keep their fucking ideals to themselves and be happy knowing they are going to see jesus.

on a recent trip to the UK I was in manchester city centre, a large crowd was gathering around some performers and large PA system, hip hop started the proceedings that quickly become a preaching session, within a few minutes the guy who was up there had told all in listening distance that their lives were empty without jesus, what a fucking little wanker, thats what i hate, he was telling me that my life was empty, condescending little fuck, thats what i hate, its basically an intrusion that i or nobody needs.

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25. Comment #225631 by Sally Luxmoore on August 7, 2008 at 6:18 am

Cartomancer -

That sandwich board idea is great!
If I ever saw that it would really make my day/ week/ month etc. . .

The best place for it would be to follow the weirdo who walks up and down Oxford Street with the 'other' version. . .

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26. Comment #225640 by beanson on August 7, 2008 at 6:34 am

Seems a bit pointless to me- I couldn't care less about converting the fuckwits, or reassuring the worried 'hell-believers'

Moreover if you wanted to do so wouldn't there be a better use of the money than on a shortlived gimmick

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27. Comment #225646 by Sally Luxmoore on August 7, 2008 at 6:44 am

Shortlived?
The weirdo in Oxford Street has been walking up and down there for decades!

Anyway, my point (and Cartomancer's, I think) was intended to be more in the line of humour than conversion. Most people laugh at religious sandwich boards. This would just cause a louder laugh.

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28. Comment #225647 by Quetzalcoatl on August 7, 2008 at 6:46 am

My suggestions for a sandwich board:

"You've forgotten to do something important"

or:

"You've left the oven on"

It would drive people mad.

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29. Comment #225655 by popecorkyxxiv on August 7, 2008 at 6:56 am

I could picture the reaction to this kind of advert in the UK, I can't imagine what would happen if you were to try the same thing in America. Can you picture the reaction of people in Lynchburg or Houston to a bus ad claiming there's no God, I don't know how they'd manage it but I'm sure there'd be bus lynchings or stake burning just for starters.

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30. Comment #225656 by Wosret on August 7, 2008 at 6:57 am

I think it's kind of a waste of money. Why not have a sign that actually says something? "There is no god, stop worrying" is rather silly in my opinion. Seems like a lot to go through to make an assertion. I highly doubt anyone is going to read it and go "Oh? Really? Learn something new everyday."

If it must be anti-religious, then put up a sign that is specifically against something, and has some statistics demonstrating the negative effects of said religious thing. Something like that could actually be productive.

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31. Comment #225660 by King of NH on August 7, 2008 at 7:13 am

I like the slogan, since it sums up the feeling I think many of us have in a kinder way then we'd put it (like "There is no God, so pull your head out of your ass and grow up!). I'd toss in for a pledge if this will be more than a bus rolling around London. Why not start a campaign to raise the awareness that atheists are not morally deprived? Why not let closet atheists and fence sitters know that it's okay? Every day I see the steeples of churches, the hateful church slogans, and stupid little fish. I want to see in your face, but tasteful, atheist signs. I want to get together and scream from the mountains that there are atheists, there are a lot of us, and we will not be slandered defenselessly by the likes of Bush Sr.. If you disagree, that's your right and I probably respect your reasons. If you do agree, we can start with a bus rolling around London!

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32. Comment #225665 by Edamus on August 7, 2008 at 7:19 am

Comment #225656 by Mitchell Gilks on August 7, 2008 at 6:57 am

Unfortunately, most people wouldn't read the sign if it were too busy. A simple slogan or picture is about as much as an average person reads on any given advertisement; especially a billboard. I'm not against being anti-religious or saying something detrimental about it, but the statistics would be a waste... More so, this is an exercise in futility; however, it does demonstrate that you are able to unite us "free thinkers" -- which, as it seems, is now the new purpose of this campaign...

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33. Comment #225666 by Apathy personified on August 7, 2008 at 7:22 am

Meh, it's a nice attempt and i'd support pretty much anything, as long as it gets rid of religious ads or ads for the latest putrid, vile and vacuous 'teen comedy' from the sides of buses.

Quetz,
I'd take a slightly 'evil' approach to the sandwich board idea -

'It's your fault they are not here anymore'

Simple, fairly vague - yet it can set off so many guilt spirals.

Edit: Ok, i stole the basic idea from an XKCD comic - Also, this is probably boardering on what i'd call cruel, ah well

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34. Comment #225669 by Edamus on August 7, 2008 at 7:27 am

I failed to mention previously, I have emailed him and hope to donate in the future... Even if I am across the ocean.

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35. Comment #225672 by Quetzalcoatl on August 7, 2008 at 7:32 am

Apathy-

How about:
"Why did you have to do that?"
"Your mother would be so ashamed".
"What did that sheep ever do to you?"

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36. Comment #225686 by Wosret on August 7, 2008 at 7:54 am

32. Comment #225665 by Edamus

It's not a billboard. It is a spot on the panel of the inside of a transit bus. People sit in those buses for often quite a length of time. When I lived in the city there wasn't one I hadn't read. Not a lot else to do when you're sitting on a bus. Towards the end of my stay they started putting up short poems. That was quite pleasant.

Anywho, I'm not interested in being united with my brothers and sisters in heresy, unless it has a point to make, or it's funny.

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37. Comment #225712 by notsobad on August 7, 2008 at 9:22 am

Come with something that supports rational thinking, science or points out the hypocrisy and impracticality of religion and I'll support.

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38. Comment #225713 by Apathy personified on August 7, 2008 at 9:29 am

Quetz,
Ha - if the guy or girl with the sandwich board gives an accusational look to everyone who reads it then that should hopefully get at least some guilty or ashamed looks.

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39. Comment #225715 by Edamus on August 7, 2008 at 9:34 am

Comment #225686 by Mitchell Gilks on August 7, 2008 at 7:54 am

Ah, I was under the assumption that it was a billboard on the outside of the bus. My fault...

Well, if it were on the outside, then it would only be visible by other vehicles or pedestrians; making it difficult to read anything more then what I mentioned. The inside is a completely different story and I would agree that statistics and what-not would benefit inside.

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40. Comment #225717 by TurinTheSlayer on August 7, 2008 at 9:36 am

If there were to be a billboard it should just have a definition:

Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Actually looking over it now its a little too long...

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41. Comment #225722 by Richard Dawkins on August 7, 2008 at 9:42 am

Obviously my ear is not close enough to the ground, for I never heard about this campaign, even though I now gather that it was publicized on our site. If I had known of it, I would have made a personal contribution (I don't think RDFRS can contribute, as we are not supposed to engage in politics).

Richard

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42. Comment #225734 by thewhitepearl on August 7, 2008 at 10:00 am

Also, this is probably boardering on what i'd call cruel, ah well

You've been on quite a ramapage this week. Comes with the taxi service apparently. Have a cup of tea, step away from the ant farm, and spend some time with your pets. Maybe that'll help.

"What did that sheep do to you"?

**chuckle**

I don't think RDFRS can contribute, as we are not supposed to engage in politics

I wonder why that is. Are we allowed to do anything else similar to what Ariane Sherine did?

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43. Comment #225736 by Lucas on August 7, 2008 at 10:08 am

Most of you are being far too cynical. Almost every post here confirms the cat-herding metaphor, and it's a self-defeating way of thinking. The bus thing is a good idea; not perfect, but good. Support it. Nitpicking is fine from your couch or desk behind your computer, but I'm getting a little disheartened with the amount of argument and flack people catch on this site anytime somebody tries to actually DO something in the REAL world as opposed to repeatedly making tired cracks about believers.

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44. Comment #225748 by thewhitepearl on August 7, 2008 at 10:46 am

[raises eyebrows]

Bravo.

somebody tries to actually DO something in the REAL world as opposed to repeatedly making tired cracks about believers

[Highfive]

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45. Comment #225777 by Apathy personified on August 7, 2008 at 11:13 am

You've been on quite a ramapage this week. Comes with the taxi service apparently. Have a cup of tea, step away from the ant farm, and spend some time with your pets. Maybe that'll help.

Ha - and i thought i was being charmingly charismatic and nice. I tried your prescription Doctor - it didn't work.

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46. Comment #225891 by rod-the-farmer on August 7, 2008 at 1:19 pm

I said before, I don't want to BUY the freaking bus, just put as sign on it. Something is very wrong with the claimed fee for this two-week advert. I called the Toronto Transit Commission, to see what it would cost to put a sign on the outside of a single bus, one side. For a billboard type (fits into brackets), a 139 by 30 inch sign would cost....are you ready for this ?.....$375. Artwork might cost another $200. And that is for four weeks.

I then asked what it would cost to do one side on their ENTIRE 1750 bus and tram fleet. $160,000, plus artwork, with the proviso that they do not allow their entire fleet to be taken up with a single, identical message. Again, four weeks. They charge more per sign, given the exposure is greater with so many vehicles. (I did not ask about subway trains or inside small panel adverts.)

So....somebody is either not giving us correct details as to the cost in the UK, or there is more than one vehicle, but something is not right here.

Anyone have the EXACT details on what the proposed fee was supposed to cover ?

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47. Comment #225897 by mordacious1 on August 7, 2008 at 1:30 pm

Rod

If you can come up with the money for the price of a used bus, and gas money, I'm willing to drive it around Canada for a few months.

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48. Comment #225907 by thewhitepearl on August 7, 2008 at 1:47 pm

Rod,

No. Don't let him drive the bus. He won't keep it in Canada any way. He'll drive it down to Dallas and run me over with it.

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49. Comment #226196 by rod-the-farmer on August 7, 2008 at 7:25 pm

Check eBay for the price of a used bus in North America these days. Dirt cheap. Same as bus-chassis motorhomes. The price has dropped a lot in recent months. Of course, we COULD get an ex-rock group party bus, put suitable signs on BOTH sides, and tour the country. Playing suitable music (Give peace a chance ? Devil's Violin by Paganini ?). Giving free debates with fundies at every stop. Oh, wait...that's how televangelists got started.....better not.

Hmm. More thought required. All suggestions welcome.

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50. Comment #226258 by comet halley on August 7, 2008 at 8:19 pm

I have posted before that this idea could be very powerful to children.
Like: "Science finds no evidence for Hell"

Then one of Richards memes could be spread.

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