How Our Culture Keeps Students Out of Science2. Comment #225741 by Opisthokont on August 7, 2008 at 10:24 am
PZ's already given a decent summary about this over on Pharyngula. Briefly, he thought the first half, about the American educational system's failure to excite students about science and to coddle their fragile self-esteem to the point of uselessness, was well put; the second half he argued to be a baseless diatribe against affirmative action policies, and at odds with the first half. I have little to add to that, except to note that there is a vast difference between science and engineering, and that it continues to annoy me that people get them confused.3. Comment #225743 by Lucas on August 7, 2008 at 10:31 am
4. Comment #225747 by toddaa on August 7, 2008 at 10:45 am
Not arguing with the gist of this article about the dismal state of science education in America, but using Bill Gates and his H1-B Visa testimony as support is junk. The reason students don't go into Comp Sci is because people like Bill Gates outsource development to India and Russia. Why spend 4 years getting a degree in a field where you are competing with people who are willing to work for a quarter of what you expect to be paid when you graduate?5. Comment #225757 by DamnDirtyApe on August 7, 2008 at 10:56 am
toddaa's got a good point, the system is hardly helping at the moment in that sense. People will embrace science and engineering if they can indeed get jobs out of it. That's pretty darn important.6. Comment #225832 by DunkinBleak on August 7, 2008 at 12:20 pm
"The reason students don't go into Comp Sci is because people like Bill Gates outsource development to India and Russia. Why spend 4 years getting a degree in a field where you are competing with people who are willing to work for a quarter of what you expect to be paid when you graduate?"7. Comment #225878 by jimbob on August 7, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Maybe Dilbert has something to offer on this topic?8. Comment #225950 by Richard Feldmann on August 7, 2008 at 2:25 pm
The reason students don't go into Comp Sci is because people like Bill Gates outsource development to India and Russia. Why spend 4 years getting a degree in a field where you are competing with people who are willing to work for a quarter of what you expect to be paid when you graduate?
9. Comment #225984 by ivellios on August 7, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Lucas -10. Comment #225989 by Goldy on August 7, 2008 at 3:00 pm
11. Comment #226005 by Border Collie on August 7, 2008 at 3:21 pm
12. Comment #226007 by Funnyguts on August 7, 2008 at 3:22 pm
This article is a mess and I'm glad PZ went after it. Unfortunately, there isn't much about even the first part of the article to agree with beyond the obvious "more people should be in science jobs."13. Comment #226069 by RamziD on August 7, 2008 at 4:58 pm
PZ's already given a decent summary about this over on Pharyngula. Briefly, he thought the first half, about the American educational system's failure to excite students about science and to coddle their fragile self-esteem to the point of uselessness, was well put; the second half he argued to be a baseless diatribe against affirmative action policies, and at odds with the first half. I have little to add to that, except to note that there is a vast difference between science and engineering, and that it continues to annoy me that people get them confused.
14. Comment #226074 by Goldy on August 7, 2008 at 5:02 pm
I'm not sure I understand this connection between multiculturalism and declining interest in science.
15. Comment #226082 by rod-the-farmer on August 7, 2008 at 5:12 pm
16. Comment #226087 by Border Collie on August 7, 2008 at 5:22 pm
17. Comment #226135 by Roland_F on August 7, 2008 at 6:23 pm
The article missed completely the point it want to make and is mixing up economic IT demand and science. The cry for more H1B visas is only to get in more cheap programmers for onsite support (mainly they work offshore anyway). Indians who are sitting squeezed in the basement and churning out source code for rates you can't get local people to work - at least this happens in Europe.18. Comment #226314 by godspot on August 8, 2008 at 12:48 am
Roland_FGender ratio:
That are very few woman in engineering and math or science is depending on the brain wiring, spatial ability (left hemisphere) is more often dominant in males (85%) compared to a bigger corpus callosum plus focus on the right brain hemisphere are more dominant in females resulting in better verbal abilities. So until this is not changed maybe by injecting more testosterone for the pregnant woman in week 6-8 of pregnancy, this brain wiring and gender ratio will not change.
19. Comment #226359 by HunterZolomon on August 8, 2008 at 2:25 am
20. Comment #226445 by Sigmund on August 8, 2008 at 5:03 am
21. Comment #226556 by Luthien on August 8, 2008 at 9:28 am
Also I think it's important to note as some have, that computer science is applying the term "science" with a broad brush. The comp sci graduate is likely to be supporting some non-descript business app - wondering why a damn variable is not being populated in some billing software. Fun fun! I know a good many CS folks, and wouldn't apply the label scientist to them.
22. Comment #226809 by Lucas on August 8, 2008 at 5:57 pm
There are many intelligent adults that no longer have the time for proper schooling or can't afford it while supporting a family. Not everyone knows what they want to do/be when they are 17-18.
Yup, exactly.
EDIT: Don't know why this looks so weird.
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23. Comment #226837 by Roland_F on August 8, 2008 at 6:42 pm
18. Comment #226314 by godspot24. Comment #226913 by root2squared on August 8, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Not arguing with the gist of this article about the dismal state of science education in America, but using Bill Gates and his H1-B Visa testimony as support is junk. The reason students don't go into Comp Sci is because people like Bill Gates outsource development to India and Russia. Why spend 4 years getting a degree in a field where you are competing with people who are willing to work for a quarter of what you expect to be paid when you graduate?
toddaa's got a good point, the system is hardly helping at the moment in that sense. People will embrace science and engineering if they can indeed get jobs out of it. That's pretty darn important.
75-90% of what I learned in school is useless twaddle. They want to make children well rounded and there is frankly not enough time to give a full education in any area.
There are many intelligent adults that no longer have the time for proper schooling or can't afford it while supporting a family. Not everyone knows what they want to do/be when they are 17-18.
Keep in mind that some of our best thinkers and scientists didn't have formal education.
25. Comment #227064 by godspot on August 9, 2008 at 9:07 am
Roland_FThere are so many books written about that and attempts to train and handle boys and girls equally failed. One example is that give a little boy a doll and he will play football with the head soon, give a ball to a girl and she will cuddle it like a doll.
26. Comment #228870 by thrutraffic on August 12, 2008 at 4:40 pm
1. Comment #225719 by Nathanial_BB on August 7, 2008 at 9:40 am
I was bored... Can you tell :)
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