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Thursday, August 7, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document How Our Culture Keeps Students Out of Science

by The Chronicle of Higher Education

Thanks to SomeoneFree for the link.

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=03hp5gr19z5sb0cdvhtsk5qgp3yhdttf

How Our Culture Keeps Students Out of Science
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By PETER WOOD

In March, Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, testified before the House Committee on Science and Technology about the abject failure of American schools, colleges, and universities to prepare students for advanced study in the sciences.

Well, that's not exactly what he testified. The purpose of his trip to the Hill was to impress on Congress the need for more H-1B visas. Those are the visas extended to highly trained experts for specialized jobs. Microsoft, said Gates, can't find enough top-quality computer scientists who are U.S. citizens or already have the right visas. But, he added, a solution is at hand: America's first-rate graduate schools have a wealth of brilliant scientists and engineers in the pipeline. A large portion of them, however, are foreign nationals here on student visas, and are destined to return home after they graduate. Wouldn't it be smarter for our nation to give them H-1B visas so they could stay here and put their training to work helping American companies?

Gates has a compelling point — largely because the shortage of Americans holding or pursuing advanced degrees in fields like computer science defies conventional market explanations. The average annual salary in the field is more than $100,000. Meanwhile, we have a robust supply of high-IQ baristas and college graduates with jobs that a generation ago would not even have required a high-school diploma.

So while Gates didn't make the point in so many words, his call for more H-1B visas was really testimony to the incapacity of American education to inspire children to take an interest in science and motivate young adults to follow though. He noted that 60 percent of the students at the top American computer-science departments are foreign-born.

Gates is hardly the first to sound the alarm. Back in 2003, the National Science Board issued a report that noted steep declines in "graduate enrollments of U.S. citizens and permanent residents" in the sciences. The explanation? "Declining federal support for research sends negative signals to interested students." That seems unlikely, in that the alleged decline hasn't dampened the enthusiasm of students from all around the world for our country's graduate programs.

The precipitous drop in American science students has been visible for years. In 1998 the House released a national science-policy report, "Unlocking Our Future," that fussily described "a serious incongruity between the perceived utility of a degree in science and engineering by potential students and the present and future need for those with training."

Let me offer a different explanation. Students respond more profoundly to cultural imperatives than to market forces. In the United States, students are insulated from the commercial market's demand for their knowledge and skills. That market lies a long way off — often too far to see. But they are not insulated one bit from the worldview promoted by their teachers, textbooks, and entertainment. From those sources, students pick up attitudes, motivations, and a lively sense of what life is about. School has always been as much about learning the ropes as it is about learning the rotes. We do, however, have some new ropes, and they aren't very science-friendly. Rather, they lead students who look upon the difficulties of pursuing science to ask, "Why bother?"

Success in the sciences unquestionably takes a lot of hard work, sustained over many years. Students usually have to catch the science bug in grade school and stick with it to develop the competencies in math and the mastery of complex theories they need to progress up the ladder. Those who succeed at the level where they can eventually pursue graduate degrees must have not only abundant intellectual talent but also a powerful interest in sticking to a long course of cumulative study. A century ago, Max Weber wrote of "Science as a Vocation," and, indeed, students need to feel something like a calling for science to surmount the numerous obstacles on the way to an advanced degree.

At least on the emotional level, contemporary American education sides with the obstacles. It begins by treating children as psychologically fragile beings who will fail to learn — and worse, fail to develop as "whole persons" — if not constantly praised. The self-esteem movement may have its merits, but preparing students for arduous intellectual ascents aren't among them. What the movement most commonly yields is a surfeit of college freshmen who "feel good" about themselves for no discernible reason and who grossly overrate their meager attainments.

The intellectual lassitude we breed in students, their unearned and inflated self-confidence, undercuts both the self-discipline and the intellectual modesty that is needed for the apprentice years in the sciences. Modesty? Yes, for while talented scientists are often proud of their talent and accomplishments, they universally subscribe to the humbling need to prove themselves against the most-unyielding standards of inquiry. That willingness to play by nature's rules runs in contrast to the make-it-up-as-you-go-along insouciance that characterizes so many variants of postmodernism and that flatters itself as being a higher form of pragmatism.

The aversion to long-term and deeply committed study of science among American students also stems from other cultural imperatives. We rank the manufacture of "self-esteem" above hard-won achievement, but we also have immersed a generation in wall-to-wall promotion of diversity and multiculturalism as being the worthiest form of educational endeavor; we have foregrounded the redistributional dreams of "social justice" over heroic aspirations to discover, invent, and thereby create new wealth; and we have endlessly extolled the virtue of "sustainability" against the ravages of "progress." Do all that, and you create an educational system that is essentially hostile to advanced achievement in the sciences and technology. Moreover, those threads have a certainty and unity that make them not just a collection of educational conceits but also part of a compelling worldview.

The antiscience agenda is visible as early as kindergarten, with its infantile versions of the diversity agenda and its early budding of self-esteem lessons. But it complicates and propagates all the way up through grade school and high school. In college it often drops the mask of diffuse benevolence and hardens into a fascination with "identity."

That could be a good thing if the introspections were enriched by professors who could show students where Plato or Shakespeare had touched such depths, or who could startle them by showing where Hobbes or Tocqueville had seen them coming. But in a curriculum dissolved in the sea of minutiae and professorial enthusiasms, the opportunity to pass through moody introspection and back into the sturdy world of real people grows rare.

The science "problems" we now ask students to think about aren't really science problems at all. Instead we have the National Science Foundation vexed about the need for more women and minorities in the sciences. President Lawrence H. Summers was pushed out of Harvard University for speculating (in league with a great deal of neurological evidence) that innate difference might have something to do with the disparity in numbers of men and women at the highest levels of those fields. In 2006 the National Academy of Sciences issued a report, "Beyond Bias and Barriers: Fulfilling the Potential of Women in Academic Science and Engineering." Officials of the National Science Foundation and the Department of Education are looking to use Title IX to force science graduate programs to admit more women. The big problem? As of 2001, 80 percent of engineering degrees and 72 percent of computer-science degrees have gone to men.

A society that worries itself about which chromosomes scientists have isn't a society that takes science education seriously. In 1900 the mathematician David Hilbert famously drew up a list of 23 unsolved problems in mathematics; 18 have now been solved. Hilbert has also bequeathed us a way of thinking about mathematics and the sciences as a to-do list of intellectual challenges. Notably, Hilbert didn't write down problem No. 24: "Make sure half the preceding 23 problems are solved by female mathematicians."

Obsession with the sex and race of scientists is just one more indication of how American higher education has swung into orbit around the neutron star of identity politics. Talk to recent college graduates and you are likely to hear something like: "Asian students are just better at science and math." That is a verbal shrug, not a lament. The reward of 16 years of diversiphilic indoctrination turns out to be a comfort zone of rationalizations.

In his testimony, Bill Gates did more than glance at the failures of American schooling. Our record on high-school math and science education is particularly troubling. International tests indicate that American fourth graders rank among the top students in the world in science and above average in math. By eighth grade, they have moved closer to the middle of the pack. By 12th grade, our students score near the bottom of all industrialized nations. As a result, too many of them enter college without even the basic skills needed to pursue a degree in science or engineering.

And Gates has backed his words with money. The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, he reported, has spent $1.9-billion to "establish 1,124 new high schools and improve 761 existing high schools." The Gates-supported schools have as "common elements" such anodyne features as "high standards," "relevant, challenging course work," and "high levels of support." Gates also supports "great transparency and accountability."

The sheer magnitude of the effort could make a dent, the way Andrew Carnegie's libraries opened the world of books to millions of Americans. I applaud the philanthropy and hope Gates's STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) initiatives in Texas, Ohio, and other states bear fruit. One way culture changes is through the efforts of determined reformers, and Gates qualifies.

On the other hand, nothing in his testimony suggested recognition that American education's cultural imperatives play a role in diminishing the importance of science and technology in the eyes of the great majority of students. I don't take it as a tragedy if our top graduate programs fill up with ambitious and talented students from abroad; if we need to issue more H-1B visas to sustain our high-tech industries, let's do it with dispatch. Welcoming some of the world's most educated, talented, and ambitious scientists to our shores only strengthens the nation. But the apathy of so many homegrown American students to the intellectual challenges of science is something else — something that building schools, multiplying computers, and ginning up STEM programs won't touch.

Bill Gates may not be the right person to tell us how to restore that mixture of awe, admiration, sheer ambition, delight in meeting difficulties, and stubborn curiosity — the patient exuberance — that draws students into the adventure of science. A few of our students catch it despite the preoccupations of their teachers and their textbooks. But what to do about the larger problem? I'm starting my own Hilbert's list.

Peter Wood is executive director of the National Association of Scholars.

Comments 1 - 26 of 26 |

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1. Comment #225719 by Nathanial_BB on August 7, 2008 at 9:40 am

 avatarHe shoots - He scores!!

I was bored... Can you tell :)

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2. Comment #225741 by Opisthokont on August 7, 2008 at 10:24 am

PZ's already given a decent summary about this over on Pharyngula. Briefly, he thought the first half, about the American educational system's failure to excite students about science and to coddle their fragile self-esteem to the point of uselessness, was well put; the second half he argued to be a baseless diatribe against affirmative action policies, and at odds with the first half. I have little to add to that, except to note that there is a vast difference between science and engineering, and that it continues to annoy me that people get them confused.

Other Comments by Opisthokont

3. Comment #225743 by Lucas on August 7, 2008 at 10:31 am

 avatarWow. Good article. I don't think I've ever read one on this site that I agreed with more. I'm not sure what the solutions are, but Wood correctly states the problem. Every day the feeling grows in me that I was shafted on science and math education somewhere between 7th and 11th grade, thus leading me to become one of those many high-IQ baristas with college degrees. Ironically, now that I have an MA, even coffee shops won't hire me because I'm TOO educated, and my knowledge is so specialized that there are no jobs I can get with it outside of academia. I am far from alone in this. I really should have been a scientist. If I could switch to neuroscience or astrophysics at the age of 30 and after 7 years of college (and many thousands in student loan debts), I would, but it's too late. I have to wonder if I am one of those wasted potential scientists.

EDIT: Honestly, if the government would pay for it, I would scrap everything I've done and start all over as a freshman physics major.

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4. Comment #225747 by toddaa on August 7, 2008 at 10:45 am

Not arguing with the gist of this article about the dismal state of science education in America, but using Bill Gates and his H1-B Visa testimony as support is junk. The reason students don't go into Comp Sci is because people like Bill Gates outsource development to India and Russia. Why spend 4 years getting a degree in a field where you are competing with people who are willing to work for a quarter of what you expect to be paid when you graduate?

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5. Comment #225757 by DamnDirtyApe on August 7, 2008 at 10:56 am

toddaa's got a good point, the system is hardly helping at the moment in that sense. People will embrace science and engineering if they can indeed get jobs out of it. That's pretty darn important.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

6. Comment #225832 by DunkinBleak on August 7, 2008 at 12:20 pm

"The reason students don't go into Comp Sci is because people like Bill Gates outsource development to India and Russia. Why spend 4 years getting a degree in a field where you are competing with people who are willing to work for a quarter of what you expect to be paid when you graduate?"

Right on. I work for one of the largest IT consulting companies in the world, and in my current role, I interface on the USA side with a development team located in Manila. There is one main reason for using Manila, and it's not a lack of qualified people in the USA - it's that Manila resources work cheap. It's all about the bottom line, and the cost of using Philippines and India compared to USA personnel is the main consideration. The higher-ups at my company don't sit around lamenting the lack of USA talent and how they are forced to go look overseas - they actively go overseas because it's cheaper. So I would think long and hard before getting into the strictly computer science arena at this time. At least be sure to acquire a tech skill set that offers some protection from outsourcing. It seems Bill Gates wants to con people in his quest for cheap labor, and the essayist is perhaps lacking some knowledge of the computer industry.

Also I think it's important to note as some have, that computer science is applying the term "science" with a broad brush. The comp sci graduate is likely to be supporting some non-descript business app - wondering why a damn variable is not being populated in some billing software. Fun fun! I know a good many CS folks, and wouldn't apply the label scientist to them.

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7. Comment #225878 by jimbob on August 7, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Maybe Dilbert has something to offer on this topic?

On another note, don't go knocking self-esteem. The problem is not with this important motivational and mental health variable, but rather, is that many folks think it is a synonym for conceit.

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8. Comment #225950 by Richard Feldmann on August 7, 2008 at 2:25 pm

The reason students don't go into Comp Sci is because people like Bill Gates outsource development to India and Russia. Why spend 4 years getting a degree in a field where you are competing with people who are willing to work for a quarter of what you expect to be paid when you graduate?


This is only part of the problem. The rising costs of science education make it difficult for some people to get into it regardless of what graduates end up getting paid. Interest in science aside, some students may be forced to go with cheaper degrees because their families can't afford it, even with financial aid.

Some people may suggest that the educational system "fails to excite students about science" but I don't agree. Science itself is pretty darn interesting. I think that the cultural factors have a much stronger effect than may be supposed.

If the US is really as religious as some polls suggest, we have a country that is about half-filled with people who may shy away from the sciences because they've been taught that science is incompatible with faith and these people are raising kids who may very well share the same aversion.

I would be curious to know if a poll has ever been done that asks graduates if their religious beliefs affected their degree choice, and whether such a poll would show an intentional shift away from the sciences. Maybe I shouldn't be curious, as I'd hate to know the answer. :)

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9. Comment #225984 by ivellios on August 7, 2008 at 2:55 pm

 avatarLucas -

I too am one of high intelligence with wasted potential. I currently am a Union Ironworker. The job is inherently boring and not much of a mental challenge for me but it pays well in my part of the US.

Here's an idea for Mr. Gates and other mucky mucks.

Stop worrying about those worthless degrees. Take a chance and hire those that are willing and able to learn on the job. Yes it will cost a little time and money to train these people, but they will be getting first hand knowledge of something they may genuinely be interested in without all the useless "elective" courses that secondary school forces you to have to be "well rounded". This will also allow you to pay a slightly lower wage while training due to the fact that there is no degree attached to these people.

75-90% of what I learned in school is useless twaddle. They want to make children well rounded and there is frankly not enough time to give a full education in any area.

There are many intelligent adults that no longer have the time for proper schooling or can't afford it while supporting a family. Not everyone knows what they want to do/be when they are 17-18.

Keep in mind that some of our best thinkers and scientists didn't have formal education.

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10. Comment #225989 by Goldy on August 7, 2008 at 3:00 pm

 avatarIt's spreading, this culture of stupid...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10525829

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11. Comment #226005 by Border Collie on August 7, 2008 at 3:21 pm

 avatarGreat article ...
I see this every day with two highschoolers in the house ...

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12. Comment #226007 by Funnyguts on August 7, 2008 at 3:22 pm

This article is a mess and I'm glad PZ went after it. Unfortunately, there isn't much about even the first part of the article to agree with beyond the obvious "more people should be in science jobs."

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13. Comment #226069 by RamziD on August 7, 2008 at 4:58 pm

PZ's already given a decent summary about this over on Pharyngula. Briefly, he thought the first half, about the American educational system's failure to excite students about science and to coddle their fragile self-esteem to the point of uselessness, was well put; the second half he argued to be a baseless diatribe against affirmative action policies, and at odds with the first half. I have little to add to that, except to note that there is a vast difference between science and engineering, and that it continues to annoy me that people get them confused.


I'm in agreement with you and PZ. I'm not sure I understand this connection between multiculturalism and declining interest in science.

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14. Comment #226074 by Goldy on August 7, 2008 at 5:02 pm

 avatar
I'm not sure I understand this connection between multiculturalism and declining interest in science.

Maybe this piece is realted to that...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2494397/Richard-Dawkins-Muslim-parents-import-creationism-into-schools.html

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15. Comment #226082 by rod-the-farmer on August 7, 2008 at 5:12 pm

 avatarI would love to see Bill Gates put his money where his mouth is, regarding Texas. He could stand up and say

"I WAS going to invest a lot of money in science education in Texas, but I see that you want to shut out science here and replace it with bronze age myths. Effective immediately, I will be withdrawing all my funding from Texas, until you get rid of the intelligent design crap, and get back to real science. And make it permanent. I don't want to come back here in a few years and find you have slid backwards and re-introduced creationism under a different name."

He HAS the money, and if he is serious about real science, a word from him would have enormous impact, IMHO.

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16. Comment #226087 by Border Collie on August 7, 2008 at 5:22 pm

 avatarI'm not as well-versed in this as most of you guys are. I just see the two teenage boys in the house and their friends everyday. I did teach school a couple of decades ago, however. What I see today, which started in the 1970's, is a seeming inability to teach and or learn actual subjects like math, science, English, etc. However, pseudo-subjects as in self-esteem building, political correctness, white people are bad, all things are equal, multi-culturalism, etc., are prevalent. Both boys were in some sort of honors thing but I didn't see either of them crack a book all year and neither of them are anything like honors students in the old school version. They both know what to say and not to say in social situations but the simplest math or science baffles them.

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17. Comment #226135 by Roland_F on August 7, 2008 at 6:23 pm

The article missed completely the point it want to make and is mixing up economic IT demand and science. The cry for more H1B visas is only to get in more cheap programmers for onsite support (mainly they work offshore anyway). Indians who are sitting squeezed in the basement and churning out source code for rates you can't get local people to work - at least this happens in Europe.

The real topic is not about educating IT rookies, but about the real science topics and there the image of the white coat nerd in the ivory tower is just too 'uncool' for many teenagers to be interested to take this path.
And then the high school is not very encouraging for science interest and concentrating on social and political studies and the little science left especially for Biology is challenged from religious fundamentalist.

Gender ratio:
That are very few woman in engineering and math or science is depending on the brain wiring, spatial ability (left hemisphere) is more often dominant in males (85%) compared to a bigger corpus callosum plus focus on the right brain hemisphere are more dominant in females resulting in better verbal abilities. So until this is not changed maybe by injecting more testosterone for the pregnant woman in week 6-8 of pregnancy, this brain wiring and gender ratio will not change.

For the future of science:
As long as well funded US top universities are still able to attract the world best scientist educated in other countries, the US corporation don't have to worry about this bad public high school records. Also in a globalized economy you can still open Biotech or Stem cell research labs in another country with more liberal laws.

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18. Comment #226314 by godspot on August 8, 2008 at 12:48 am

Roland_F

Gender ratio:
That are very few woman in engineering and math or science is depending on the brain wiring, spatial ability (left hemisphere) is more often dominant in males (85%) compared to a bigger corpus callosum plus focus on the right brain hemisphere are more dominant in females resulting in better verbal abilities. So until this is not changed maybe by injecting more testosterone for the pregnant woman in week 6-8 of pregnancy, this brain wiring and gender ratio will not change.


Is that so? http://www.sciam.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=571F0E86-9E2C-6F6B-44A864E897AA54FE

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19. Comment #226359 by HunterZolomon on August 8, 2008 at 2:25 am

 avatarVery interesting. Judging from some anecdotal evidence I picked up in school the article rings true. We shouldn't forget other contributing factors though. In a society where the pinnacle of success communicated to teenagers is being an American Idol finalist, who can expect less...

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20. Comment #226445 by Sigmund on August 8, 2008 at 5:03 am

 avatarAs someone mentioned earlier, provide real career potential and people will take up a subject.
Its a dirty secret of the science community that there are in fact far too many scientists rather than too little being produced by the education system. Many of the bloggers writing about science are actually educators who need a certain number of new students per year to fill their classes. They are not going to rock the boat by pointing out that there are actually permanent academic jobs for only about 5% of those currently qualifying. Imagine it in another profession if only 5% of medical students, lawyers or accountants had a chance of a permanent career, does anyone seriously think those jobs would be as popular as they are currently?
I know lots of research labs that will only take on new members of staff if they agree to work for no salary. From an economics point of view I'm sure Bill Gates would find this the perfect solution thoughout his industry but for those thinking of starting a career is it really ethical to withhold the reality they will be facing by the time they are qualified?

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21. Comment #226556 by Luthien on August 8, 2008 at 9:28 am

 avatar
Also I think it's important to note as some have, that computer science is applying the term "science" with a broad brush. The comp sci graduate is likely to be supporting some non-descript business app - wondering why a damn variable is not being populated in some billing software. Fun fun! I know a good many CS folks, and wouldn't apply the label scientist to them.


You just depressed me, that sounds like my job :( I would love to go back to uni and do a physics degree, but I just can't afford not to work *sobs*

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22. Comment #226809 by Lucas on August 8, 2008 at 5:57 pm

 avatar
There are many intelligent adults that no longer have the time for proper schooling or can't afford it while supporting a family. Not everyone knows what they want to do/be when they are 17-18.


Yup, exactly.

EDIT: Don't know why this looks so weird.

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23. Comment #226837 by Roland_F on August 8, 2008 at 6:42 pm

18. Comment #226314 by godspot
About Gender ratio:
I think brain scan's have revealed the typically left brain hemisphere activity in males and the more typical right hemisphere in females usually 85% versus 15% and vice versa.
The right-left connection (the corpus callosum) is usually also bigger in females what is increasing the verbal abilities. So you will find males (like myself) who can concentrate on very specific tasks and females like my wife who has difficulties adding up 3 numbers but can talk about 3 totally unrelated topics in the same sentence, which totally confuses me - just to make s a typically example.

There are so many books written about that and attempts to train and handle boys and girls equally failed. One example is that give a little boy a doll and he will play football with the head soon, give a ball to a girl and she will cuddle it like a doll.

The main difference of this left hemisphere focus is spatial ability e.g. used to calculate speed and trajectories (hitting a running zebra with a spear, or nowadays parking a car in a narrow gap).

The left brain hemisphere of spatial ability will not be found out by comparing girls and boys math results of adding up numbers, but more in the spatial rotation of 3D objects in your mind, or geometry topics.

When I went to school in the 1970s we had the classes split by topics starting at Grade 8:
language focus - mainly girls very few boys (80:20 ratio), science Biology focus (50:50 ratio), science physics focus (100:0 ratio boys) leftover low performers = "social studies". And this after a gender equal education before : boys and girls both in handywork and knitting, stiching etc...

About the Scientific American statistics which I read last week already: first girls are more behaved and usually more reactive to the teacher resulting in better grades, and adding numbers is not the main test to compare right and left brain hemisphere.
So I would rate this 'statistics' more as one of this 'blank state paradigm' of political correctness where everybody has to be equal from birth and only society is making up the differences by their behavior, and the SCIAM statistics might be one attempt in this direction.
Steven Pinker has written several books about this topic.

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24. Comment #226913 by root2squared on August 8, 2008 at 10:09 pm

 avatarI am an H1B programmer and I had to reply to some of these comments.

Not arguing with the gist of this article about the dismal state of science education in America, but using Bill Gates and his H1-B Visa testimony as support is junk. The reason students don't go into Comp Sci is because people like Bill Gates outsource development to India and Russia. Why spend 4 years getting a degree in a field where you are competing with people who are willing to work for a quarter of what you expect to be paid when you graduate?


Please find me one H1B worker who is willing to work for even half of what you expect to be paid. I came with around 15 Indian students to do my Master's over here and after graduating, we all got jobs without any prior work experience with salaries in the range of $75,000 to $170,000.

toddaa's got a good point, the system is hardly helping at the moment in that sense. People will embrace science and engineering if they can indeed get jobs out of it. That's pretty darn important.


How about you get into science because it's fascinating and interesting? I know my profs who could make double the money they curently make, but won't switch because they love their research.

The most amazing thing I noticed was that in grad programs, most of the students were international students. It is a lot harder and way more expensive for a non-American student to get a degree here.

75-90% of what I learned in school is useless twaddle. They want to make children well rounded and there is frankly not enough time to give a full education in any area.


This is complete nonsense. You need to know basic math to do computer science. You need to have good grammar & vocabulary in most professional fields. What you learn in school serves as the foundation for your future learning.


There are many intelligent adults that no longer have the time for proper schooling or can't afford it while supporting a family. Not everyone knows what they want to do/be when they are 17-18.


This is when you go to college...to find out what you want to do.


Keep in mind that some of our best thinkers and scientists didn't have formal education.


The operative word is "some"...I would say "few".
Most of them did.

Other Comments by root2squared

25. Comment #227064 by godspot on August 9, 2008 at 9:07 am

Roland_F

There are so many books written about that and attempts to train and handle boys and girls equally failed. One example is that give a little boy a doll and he will play football with the head soon, give a ball to a girl and she will cuddle it like a doll.


Well, a lot of stuff is written, so let's not use that as an argument. amd even if the guys 'n' dolls story is based on more than anecdotal evidence, I fail to see what showing agressive or caring behaviour in children says about their future ability to do math.

Same counts for your dismissal of the statistics given in Scientific American as politically correct.

In former communist countries like Russia, the percentage of women in science is much higher than in the USA. Guess those commies have different brains.

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26. Comment #228870 by thrutraffic on August 12, 2008 at 4:40 pm

 avatarI think we should not approve an increase in the visas. Here's my thinking in short:

- By preventing the visas we increase pressure on ourselves to provide a solution for if we do not the rest of the world will continue to outpace us and we'll fall so far behind we'll lose our position in a technological world. Sink or swim.

- By implementing the above policy we'll at the same time be pressuring the the religious to reconsider how far they are willing to go. I'd bet a large majority of them would lighten up enough on blocking science education for us to make some progress. Or they'll just strangle their own throats along with ours. :-)

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