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Saturday, September 13, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document Have We Ever Faced An Enemy More Stupid Than Muslim Terrorists?

by Rod Liddle, Spectator

Reposted from:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/print/the-magazine/features/2075071/have-we-ever-faced-an-enemy-more-stupid-than-muslim-terrorists.thtml

These narcissistic adolescent halfwits should not fill us with fear, says Rod Liddle. The aircraft plot trial showed yet again that those who wish to murder us with fizzy pop and peroxide are a bunch of cowards

Isn't it about time Muslim terrorists rethought their strategy of recording glorious martyrdom videos, in advance of failing to blow anything up? Wouldn't it be a bit less embarrassing for all concerned? Time after time we see these imbeciles on our television news promising all sorts of mayhem and misery, the righteous and cleansing fires of Allah poured down upon we imperialist decadent kafir scum, 'body parts' scattered in the streets, etc. And then they forget to take a cigarette lighter with them to the airport, or the detonator doesn't work, or they're arrested buying 5,000 bottles of hydrogen peroxide from the local hairdresser's shop and thus somehow arousing suspicion (just how blond do you want to be, Mohammed?). Or they can't find a place to park, or they can't light the fuse in their shoe, or they suddenly get the heeby-jeebies on a bus and run away.

Have we ever, as a nation, faced an enemy more cowardly or more intellectually challenged? At least the IRA had a soupçon of strategic vision and had the good taste and sense not to brag about their atrocities in advance, on film — they just bragged about them afterwards, with the vague intimation of an apology. Also, they knew how to work explosives, how to make them go bang and kill innocent people — so credit where it's due. And for all their forlorn hopelessness, it was at least touch and go with the poor Argies for a while, up on Goose Green. But this lot, our current tormentors, the people charged with the task of dragging us to the abyss? If the whacko evangelical Christians and Muslims are correct and there really will be a final bloody conflagration at a place called Armageddon — well, hell, at least it will be brief, with not too many injured on our side. I mean, who would you want as allies, fighting for you, on this terrible day of judgment — al-Qa'eda's collection of narcissistic adolescent halfwits, or the Israeli army?

'Don't mess with the Muslims' was the vainglorious coda to the bloodthirsty video message recorded by the quarterwit Tanvir Hussain shortly before he was arrested for his part in planning to detonate explosives on board an aeroplane, all of which you may have read about in your newspapers this last week. 'Why ever not, Tanvir?' we might have asked him gently. 'Because, let's face it, you're absolutely f***ing useless at this Western-infidel cockroach carnage business. You couldn't blow up a balloon. Mess with you? Mess with you? What would be the point?'

There had been plenty of wholly spastic Muslim terror operations even before those doctors tried to blow up Glasgow airport last year and ended up setting themselves on fire, harming absolutely nobody except themselves, and having the s**t kicked out of them by itinerant security guards. These were the docs, remember, who couldn't find a good place to park: Allah's will thwarted by local council parking regulations. (Well, sure, thinking about it, maybe we're all with Allah and his soldiers on this one.) I was already worried, before then, about the average IQ level of al-Qa'eda operatives; that stuff, though, made me seriously question the calibre of candidates they're allowing to practise medicine in this country. I don't mind that my local GP is a psychopathic jihadi, but I would like him to have an IQ level higher than my cholesterol count; he should at least be able to park.

It's a bit like when that awful Scouse woman was bunged in prison by the Sudanese authorities for having allowed her schoolkids to name a teddy bear Mohammed. You'll remember her and the expensive business involved in springing her from chokey in Khartoum. God help us, many of us thought at the time — are all teachers really that thick? What will become of our poor children? Perhaps we should teach them at home. That Scouse woman is presumably back in the UK education system right now, let loose on our children.

One is driven towards a somewhat politically incorrect frame of mind. A month or so back, some Muslim chap with lime jelly between his ears was arrested in the West Country on terrorism charges. On television the police talked about his arrest with considerable reserve and sympathy, suggesting that he was a dupe, an idiot, a borderline cretin. A simple man manipulated by clever and malevolent sources. They had, after all, interviewed him; they had the measure of the man. But they may have missed the point that chummy, down in the cells, was absolutely par for the course for Muslim terrorists — that all of them are, frankly, a few sura short of the full Koran. And, God forgive me, the same thought occurred last year when the allied forces announced, in outraged tones, that the latest Muslim insurgents who had blown themselves up in Iraq, murdering scores of people and maiming many more, were people who suffered from Down's Syndrome. How low could al-Qa'eda stoop, they fulminated? Well, um, are you sure these suicidal jihadists were not, in strict intellectual terms, pretty much par for the course? Hell, at least their bombs went off, you might argue. Evidence suggests that for fundamentalist lunatics they were of slightly above average IQ.

It is not just IQ, of course. Lately there has been a rather winning cowardice on display from those who, we are told, wish to murder us all in the name of Allah. Look at the cases of Abdulla Ahmed Ali, Assad Sarwar and the aforementioned genius Tanvir Hussain — the 'liquid bombers' convicted of having conspired to commit mass murder with their ineptly constructed bottles of fizzy pop and hydrogen peroxide. They did not rail at the judge and the jury that this was a court they did not recognise, that Allah would be their judge and that they were wholly, incontestably justified in what they were doing. Nope, instead they whined that they just wished to make tiny little explosions somewhere harmless — not actually hurt anybody — in order to gain public attention.

In other words, the courage of their convictions utterly deserted them. They lied in order to save themselves a few years more in prison. Those video announcements, which I mentioned earlier, were part of the same thing: these weren't psychopaths, then, these were public relations officers for the Ummah, who wished to do nothing more than alert attention to injustices perpetrated by the infidel hordes. This defence, to which they still cleave, is perhaps even more pathetic than their manifest incompetence. We want to kill you all, they said on their videos — and then, in court, nah, it was only a joke. Only kidding. We didn't mean it.

How pathetic — and how truly narcissistic. They are part of the respec' culture; they demand our respect and think they have the right to it and when it is not doled out in the quantities they require, they resort to inept attempts at carnage. I know that suicide attacks occur elsewhere in the world; but there is something very British, very now, about the mentality of Ali, Sarwar and Hussain; indulged youth who nonetheless feel they have been denied the respec' they crave and then react with the petulance of the terminally adolescent moron. But who then fail to carry out their threats because they are too stupid and have not really, if they're honest, put the work in.

There is something vapid and empty about all these home-grown Muslim threats; the mangled, half-understood politics, the teenager's whine of complaint, the insistence that they have been egregiously transgressed and are therefore duty-bound to exact some sort of primitive revenge, if only they can tear themselves away from the internet chatroom and the handheld video recorder. The white kids — utter scum, beyond redemption — who killed the poor goth girl Sophie Lancaster by kicking her to death had made similar vainglorious videos before they committed their crime — a film paid for, as it happens, by the local authority, which fatuously thought it was a good way for them to channel their misplaced energies.

I've always held that Islam is largely to blame for the viciousness which is periodically unleashed upon us all in the form of bombings — that it is the credo, rather than the individual, which is principally to blame. And you have to say that Islam is, in this regard, an extremely accommodating credo. But there is something to be said too for the argument that these young boys — it is always young boys — are simply a different side of the coin to the stabbers, muggers and thugs of young, modern Britain: over-indulged, forever demanding of respect and redress, utterly undeserving of either.

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1. Comment #246883 by shemp333 on September 13, 2008 at 1:25 pm

 avatarWhat kind of terrorist are you?

"I am a terrifying.... terrorist!"


"SILENCE! I KILL YOU!!!"


(Ahmed the dead terrorist, Jeff Dunham)

Other Comments by shemp333

2. Comment #246884 by Diacanu on September 13, 2008 at 1:30 pm

 avatarBeautifully constructed piece of justified vitriol.

Gave me a much needed pick me up. :)

Other Comments by Diacanu

3. Comment #246886 by RichardofYork on September 13, 2008 at 1:35 pm

He's banging on about iq !? Not once does he mention the koran demanding the death of infidels IQ is irrelevent

Other Comments by RichardofYork

4. Comment #246889 by DamnDirtyApe on September 13, 2008 at 1:42 pm

I laughed until I realised where most of our terrorists had been educated.

In the uk.

We got problems.

And the Sophie Lancaster thing is something that still gets me even now.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

5. Comment #246891 by notsobad on September 13, 2008 at 1:43 pm

 avatarThe whole terrorism thing is exaggerated. Your chances of dying in a terrorist attack are almost zero, even if 9/11 happened every year ... unless, of course, you live in New York ;).

Other Comments by notsobad

6. Comment #246893 by elpopstardo on September 13, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Now that made me laugh out loud. I no longer fear Allah and his fizzy pop villains.....

Other Comments by elpopstardo

7. Comment #246894 by elpopstardo on September 13, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Shit, DirtyDamnApe is right, as a citizen of the U.K. I think were all doomed.....

Other Comments by elpopstardo

8. Comment #246896 by mordacious1 on September 13, 2008 at 1:50 pm

 avatarShemp

That is "Achmed", as in Acccchhhhmed. *wipes computer screen*

Other Comments by mordacious1

9. Comment #246899 by ligfietser on September 13, 2008 at 1:52 pm

 avatarI wrote about this on my Athlog, a few months ago (sorry, Dutch). These guys are really to stupid to defecate. My personal favorite is this one.

Other Comments by ligfietser

10. Comment #246900 by Richard Dawkins on September 13, 2008 at 1:54 pm

 avatarI have mixed feelings about Rod Liddle, but in this piece he is superb. Instead of taking them seriously and being afraid of them, the right way to deal with these Islamic morons is to LAUGH at them. Well done Liddle.

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

11. Comment #246905 by Laurie Fraser on September 13, 2008 at 2:01 pm

 avatarExcellent piece. This is the way to take fanaticism on. Are you reading, Fanusi?

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

12. Comment #246907 by Fanusi Khiyal on September 13, 2008 at 2:04 pm

Oh, these guys are laughable to be sure. It's odd; we need someone to do a "Great Dictator", except with some lunatic Mullah or whatever.

EDIT: Laurie, you may, possibly, recall that I have called for a program of cultural imperialism against Islam. But I am not damn fool enough to think that that's going to be enough on it's own.

Doubt me? Here, do some stand up about Muhammad in the middle of London. We'll find out from your next-of-kin how it went.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

13. Comment #246908 by beanson on September 13, 2008 at 2:04 pm

 avatarfuck, who wrote that Jeremy Clarkson
Some daft bits but the vituperation is fully justified

However, it's hardly news that most muslims are intellectually challenged

Other Comments by beanson

14. Comment #246912 by shemp333 on September 13, 2008 at 2:11 pm

 avatarGood look out there mordacious1; I've gotta respect the dialect...

I'm with Diacanu once again. It's great to be shaken and stirred with an article like this one. And I love to see Richard fired up! Bartender! Shots all 'round on me!!!

Other Comments by shemp333

15. Comment #246913 by Laurie Fraser on September 13, 2008 at 2:13 pm

 avatarFanusi, Last week my band played a new song called "911", in which muslim fanaticism gets the dirt it deserves. The audience (inner-city Sydneyites) cheered. Among them were several Lebanese-Australians. One of them came up to me after the gig to congratulate us on that particular song. He said "that is the best way to do it: ridicule." Satire is powerful.

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

16. Comment #246917 by Layla Nasreddin on September 13, 2008 at 2:19 pm

 avatarIt's a LOT better to point and laugh at these twits than to grovel before their vaunted "sensibilities" and engage in a lot of pointless "What did we do to set them off?" soul-searching. Muslim fanatics, as is the case with religious fanatics generally, cannot deal with humor!

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

17. Comment #246919 by Fanusi Khiyal on September 13, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Laurie, props on your performance. Congrats on succeeding.

I never doubted the power of satire, I just think, on it's own, it isn't enough.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

18. Comment #246921 by 8teist on September 13, 2008 at 2:29 pm

 avatarThere`s nothing like a good rant to start the day,humour always hits the spot.

Yo Laurie , how did your elections go?

Other Comments by 8teist

19. Comment #246922 by Fanusi Khiyal on September 13, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Mark Steyn line on this subject:

"There's a wonderful screed floating around the Internet called 'We're more nuts than you and it should scare you sh*tless', which works up to a grand assurance to al-Qa'eda that, even after we've killed them, our school children still won't have a clue who they are, where they're from or what was bugging them in the first place."

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

20. Comment #246925 by Laurie Fraser on September 13, 2008 at 2:30 pm

 avatarComment #246917 by Layla Nasreddin

Layla - point taken, but "we" certainly do need to constantly ask "what have we done wrong?" The answers are edifying: "We" elected the moron Bush; we acquiesced to the disgrace of the Iraq bloodbath; we are a party to the propagandistic imperialism of the idiocy that calls itself the "war on terror", etc. etc.

Agreed: a great way of dealing with the vapid morons of islamic extremism is satire; hats off to Pat Condell, et al. But we also need a rigorous soul-searching.

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

21. Comment #246926 by seals on September 13, 2008 at 2:30 pm

 avatarI hope he's right, but somehow this article strikes me as complacent. As far as I know there are no guarantees that all terrorists are morons, and they only have to be successful once for horror to ensue as has already occurred... here's hoping I'm just paranoid as usual.

Other Comments by seals

22. Comment #246928 by skip on September 13, 2008 at 2:33 pm

 avatarI just printed this article and read it aloud to my family, they laughed so hard they had tears in their eyes.

Brilliant...

"And then they forget to take a cigarette lighter with them to the airport"

I love it!

Other Comments by skip

23. Comment #246932 by Fanusi Khiyal on September 13, 2008 at 2:35 pm

Layla, Laurie, not wishing to put to fine a point on it, but these maniacs are killing people in Iraq and India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal and the Maldives and Argentina and Angola and...

And so on and so forth. You can do no right by Islam. Don't even try. This isn't about you; it's about Islam's quest to dominate the world. Pure and simple.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

24. Comment #246935 by Apathy personified on September 13, 2008 at 2:36 pm

 avatarIt's easy to laugh at these buffoons and their idiotic messages and views - and they deserve all the ridicule, scorn and general satirical wit that can be thrown at them and their primitive beliefs.

However, how many people with relatives who died on 9/11 (or 11/9, when stating dates correctly), 7/7 or 11/3 would have a chuckle at those 'stupid fundie muslims'?

Other Comments by Apathy personified

25. Comment #246938 by Laurie Fraser on September 13, 2008 at 2:38 pm

 avatarThank fuck they're not as good at terrorism and meddling as the U.S. of A., Fanusi! :)

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

26. Comment #246950 by Nails on September 13, 2008 at 2:57 pm

 avatar23. Comment #246932 by Fanusi Khiyal on September 13, 2008 at 2:35 pm

Correction - these loonies have killed people in England, but they are not anymore.

Excellent article, lets all hope they stay stupid.

Other Comments by Nails

27. Comment #246952 by D'Arcy on September 13, 2008 at 2:59 pm

 avatarThe homegrown Brits may be not as competent as their religion would demand, but they still managed quite a few deaths on the London Underground and a bus. When someone is so stupid as to not care about their own life, and malicious enough to want to kill others, then we mortals have a problem. Just to cheer you all up, I read an article in a British paper this week about Pakistani Islamics developing a "dirty" bomb. A conventional explosive with a wrapping of radioactive material. Hmmmn, somehow the words "depleted uranium" sprang to mind, but then those shells are used by "our" side and only to penetrate armour, (and kill whoever is on the other side of it).

Other Comments by D'Arcy

28. Comment #246960 by HitbLade on September 13, 2008 at 3:14 pm

Well, one can't really be angry at them, I mean, how can you expect the output to be any better than the input?

Other Comments by HitbLade

29. Comment #246962 by steveroot on September 13, 2008 at 3:17 pm

 avatarPity the people who *should* see this probably won't. Assuming they could read.

This guy reminds me of Pat Condell. :-)
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

30. Comment #246965 by Layla Nasreddin on September 13, 2008 at 3:19 pm

 avatarLaurie Fraser wrote:
Layla - point taken, but "we" certainly do need to constantly ask "what have we done wrong?" The answers are edifying: "We" elected the moron Bush; we acquiesced to the disgrace of the Iraq bloodbath; we are a party to the propagandistic imperialism of the idiocy that calls itself the "war on terror", etc. etc.


Maybe you elected Bush, I didn't! I refuse to be blamed for something I didn't do, whether it's electing Bush (as an American) or supporting Islamic extremism (by belonging to the Muslim religion post 9/11).

Anyway, politics was the last thing on my mind. I was thinking in terms of religious matters, like, "You must respect our religion, give us the right to do X, Y and Z, and never criticize it." I think I've read in more than one place that a lot of these guys in the UK don't really have a particular grievance in mind when they do this stuff. They don't know a lot about or particularly care all that much about Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Kashmir per se. No, in the case of these half-assed "attacks" by British Muslims being discussed, it's more of an adolescent attention-getting move, much like idiot teenagers painting swastikas on synagogues.

I read an interview with Karen Armstrong in a book entitled Conversations on Religion (also featuring Dawkins, by the way), in which she cited a survey among Muslims that asked "what can the West do to stop widespread hostility towards the West among Muslims," that the #1 thing Muslims wanted from the West was for them to "show more respect for Islam." Other things, like an end to the Palestinian conflict, weren't anywhere near as high. What are you going to do about that kind of attitude, that "I am my religion and any criticism or ridicule of it I am going to take personally"? How are you going to get them to realize that that's not how it works here and that they need to grow a thicker skin?

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

31. Comment #246967 by javb222 on September 13, 2008 at 3:32 pm

 avatarUtter bullshit and reads like it was written by a chav.

1) Martyrdom videos inspire others so aren't completely stupid.

2) The Glasgow "terrorist" was a doctor, so not exactly an 'imbecile'. His beliefs may be full of circular arguments but the "engineers and architects" who "hit the wall at 400mph" (Sam Harris) have degrees. It's because society doesn't criticise (and is afraid to) religion that such irrationality persists. The Muslim "terrorists" were competent enough to commit 9/11, madrid etc and lure NATO into a war in Afghanistan which saps them of blood and treasure (more damaging than the IRA maybe). Maybe homegrown terrorists are less sophisticated, but nothing to be complacent about.

3) Terrorism works as demonstrated by the capitulation of all UK mainstream media by not printing or showing the cartoons for example.

4) Not cowardly but courageous. The so-called "terrorists" are fighting in God's name for a cause they believe is greater than their selfish desires. Many are fighting (perhaps justly) to rid their fellow 'brothers' from oppressive tyrannical rule supported by Western nations (as well as the virgins maybe).

5) If the Israelis were as blissfully complacent as the author of this article, they wouldn't be taking such extreme measures against attack.

6) Being worried doesn't mean the "terrorists" have won but being complacent might mean they do win.

Other Comments by javb222

32. Comment #246973 by robotaholic on September 13, 2008 at 3:40 pm

 avatarI agree javb222

Other Comments by robotaholic

33. Comment #246974 by Fanusi Khiyal on September 13, 2008 at 3:44 pm

Oh, for...

The reason they hate us is that we are kafirs. Okay? Infidels. Unbelievers. The most hated of creatures. Islam mandates eternal division between the House of Submission and the House of War, between the Muslim and the Infidel. That is their reason, the beginning and the end of it.

It isn't Bush or Britney, it isn't Israel or Grozny. It's the doctrine of Islam itself. Period.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

34. Comment #246975 by ingodwerust on September 13, 2008 at 3:49 pm

 avatarExcellent article - terrorism has always given legimatacy to young, largely ignorant men - give them a cause, as long as they don't have to think too hard about it, they become expendable weapons. Hopefuly they will remain as incompetant as they are vile.

Other Comments by ingodwerust

35. Comment #246976 by Border Collie on September 13, 2008 at 3:50 pm

 avatarAt least he recognized them as cowards. I'm utterly sick of hearing about the 'bravery' of the 911 pilots and 'suicide' bombers.

Other Comments by Border Collie

36. Comment #246977 by Pilot22A on September 13, 2008 at 3:54 pm

Amen, and amen.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Other Comments by Pilot22A

37. Comment #246978 by 8teist on September 13, 2008 at 3:55 pm

 avatarJavb222,Just exactly,how is killing children ,civilian women and men noncombatants courageous ?
Being a brainwashed fanatic is hardly an indication of intelligence no matter how many doctorates one has.

Other Comments by 8teist

38. Comment #246980 by javb222 on September 13, 2008 at 4:00 pm

 avatarFanusi...
For example in Pakistan, where the US is blundering in and killing civilians (as always happens). The Pakistanis are legitimately annoyed. Also, Pervez Musharraf was thoroughly despised and yet was kept alive and in charge with support from the US (for whatever reason) against the will of the people. Currently, the apparently democratic government has elected a president who is regarded by most with mistrust because of charges of corruption. More than 1000 Pakistani soldiers have died doing NATO's dirty work in Afghanistan, that's more than NATO deaths. These soldiers sympathise with the Taliban not the US government or constitution.

Islam is ideologically in conflict with civilization, but Western blundering and support of oppressive regimes gives many ample additional fuel on to their flames.

Other Comments by javb222

39. Comment #246983 by javb222 on September 13, 2008 at 4:13 pm

 avatarThe 911 hijackers weren't psychopaths. Obviously once you're a "brainwashed fanatic" you don't see blowing up a police station as an act of killing civilians. If you put yourself in the mind of the hijackers or of the glasgow attacker, it takes courage to go ahead with an act of war (as they see it) and give up your life and all the things in life. And you don't just do it for yourself. It's not a merely selfish act to guarantee paradise. You get to bring along your family and others.

I think the pilots who carpet bombed Dresden in WW2 were also courageous. There was significant chance of being shot down and they thought they were fighting in a just war (which it was) and committing a just act (which it wasn't because it was essentially deliberately targeting and killing civilians).

Other Comments by javb222

40. Comment #246985 by mdowe on September 13, 2008 at 4:15 pm

 avatarI'm as prone to bravado as the next guy, but I don't think it is wise to be too dismissive of the threat these people represent. Fortunately many of them really are incompetent morons, but only one of them has to 'get it right' -- even if it is by chance alone -- and an undetermined number of innocents pay the price. Excuse my less than politically correct opinion, but as far as I'm concerned Islam should be taken serious enough to ban it outright. It is a bloodthirsty ideology, and is about as safe to have around as a ticking time bomb.

Other Comments by mdowe

41. Comment #246990 by phil rimmer on September 13, 2008 at 4:38 pm

 avatar
javb222: Obviously once you're a "brainwashed fanatic" you don't see blowing up a police station as an act of killing civilians.


True, but once you're a brainwashed fanatic with a belief in a divine purpose and a divine reward how actually courageous is your courage?

I can certainly imagine braver and more selfless acts than those of the religious zealot-terrorist.

BTW I shall use "Islam is ideologically in conflict with civilization" if I may.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

42. Comment #246991 by Cartomancer on September 13, 2008 at 4:40 pm

 avatarWhat is it about these people, though, that makes them turn to such petty, tribalistic vengefulness as a salve for their feelings of personal and societal inadequacy? Why do some disaffected youths turn to violence and hatred of others as their coping strategy, while others turn to less harmful modes of expression such as self-loathing, introversion and writing bad poetry?

I have always been appalled and unsettled by such youths. I just don't understand why haughty posturing of this nature has any effect on their deflated egos. What good is pretending you're important and frightening going to do when you know, deep down, that you're not? Surely the massive disjunct between your affected status and your actual achievements only renders the charade more facile, and brings home just how feeble, inadequate and inept you really are? I know that some people do find it an appealing coping mechanism, I just can't for the life of me understand why it would be at all comforting.

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43. Comment #246992 by javb222 on September 13, 2008 at 4:43 pm

 avatarradesq
Pakistan's a big country with population of 170m. I think it's a bit of a conspiracy theory to say that the Pakistan government is holding Osama secretly. You're on richarddawkins.net, you should know you can't prove a negative. You can't prove that Osama isn't taking refuge in Pakistan. Even if half the country was blanketed in CCTV.

mdowe
I doubt banning books (destroying freedom of expression) is going to do anything positive. It's not like people are flocking to become Muslims (they don't get infected with the Islam meme). Even the home-grown terrorists are from Muslim families (as far as i know). It's the indoctrination from childhood and undue respect from the rest of society that allows otherwise quite obviously ridiculous ideology to survive. I say don't ban the Quran, just treat it like any other book. Oh and it doesn't help that the US is dependant on oil from Saudi which ironically is promoting anti-West ideology.

Other Comments by javb222

44. Comment #246993 by RichardC on September 13, 2008 at 4:43 pm

Although Liddle does make many good points, his tone is too taunting and tabloid, almost childish in a name-calling, playground style. Yes, many of the islamic zealots are unintelligent and poorly prepared, and he makes an excellent point in drawing a parallel with the disaffected 'forever demanding respect' generation. But there is a danger of the tone here being inflammatory. Likewise, Dawkins' advice to laugh at 'islamic morons' isn't really the tone I'd expect from the illustrious professor. I'd prefer and expect a more dispassionate overview, the kind of almost style (almost Socratic) that Sam Harris has.
I also think the old charge of calling your opponents 'cowards' very weak. It obviously takes a fair measure of courage to carry out jihadi atrocities, terrible and misguided though their actions are. Again, Liddle's criticism here strikes me as typically 'tabloid', the kind of unthinking and reflexive response you'd expect to read in a paper like The Sun or Daily Mail.

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45. Comment #246994 by phil rimmer on September 13, 2008 at 4:54 pm

 avatar
Cartomancer:....Surely the massive disjunct between your affected status and your actual achievements only renders the charade more facile, and brings home just how feeble, inadequate and inept you really are?


But they look at the photo of the twin towers on their wall and think "We did that". Their achievements are their heroes' achievements, their own failures a simple instance of bad luck.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

46. Comment #246997 by javb222 on September 13, 2008 at 5:03 pm

 avatarphil rimmer: "once you're a brainwashed fanatic with a belief in a divine purpose and a divine reward how actually courageous is your courage"

I would say courage is subjective. I don't think I would say one person's courage is "true" courage.

Cartomancer
My theory for the home-grown: I think they are alienated from the rest of society because of policies of multiculturalism and because of Islamic ideology itself which causes them to identify themselves as part of the brotherhood of Muslims (Ummah) rather than the brother/sisterhood of all humans.

Sticking to Pakistan as an example... in Pakistan you see the West supporting a tyrant or corrupt government with no legitimacy which treats it's own people with contempt (add a sprinkle of conspiracy theories and paranoia for extra spice). Your morals motivate you to act to prevent this oppression (rightfully so) of "your people". And the best way to do this is... jihad in the name of Allah, the only legitimate warfare in Islam. Of course the government is corrupt, it's not Islamic, that's obviously the problem. Join al-Qaeda.

Other Comments by javb222

47. Comment #246998 by Cartomancer on September 13, 2008 at 5:05 pm

 avatar
But they look at the photo of the twin towers on their wall and think "We did that". Their achievements are their heroes' achievements, their own failures a simple instance of bad luck.
Hmm, if you say so. It's a mind-set I find impossible to get into. If I were a muslim terrorist, or indeed any sort of disaffected youth who viewed societal infamy as a worthwhile goal, I would get tremendously upset and depressed that I was not as infamous as the individuals I admired. In fact I would probably give up the whole notion because I knew I wasn't any good at it just get used to my myriad inadequacies.

This probably says more about my psychology than it does about theirs of course. But what is it that causes them to turn out with their psychological patterns rather than with mine? Why is abject failure and personal inadequacy not an obstacle to these people like it is to me, and why do they alight upon societal infamy as a valuable goal in the first place?

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48. Comment #246999 by Layla Nasreddin on September 13, 2008 at 5:10 pm

 avatarjavb222 wrote:
It's not like people are flocking to become Muslims (they don't get infected with the Islam meme). Even the home-grown terrorists are from Muslim families (as far as i know).


Well, apparently now some European converts to Islam are making their mark in terrorism:
Converts To Islam Move Up In Cells

Religious converts are playing an increasingly influential role in Islamic militant networks, having transformed themselves in recent years from curiosities to key players in terrorist cells in Europe, according to counterterrorism officials and analysts.


It's like I always say, stay the hell away from converts because they're absolutely nuts! ;-)

In any case, the fact that western converts, who obviously would have never experienced the shame of being "humiliated" by Western powers interfering in their nations or any of that kind of thing, feel so strongly that they would turn to terrorism -- does suggest that the phenomenon is slightly more complex than just being a "reaction to political opression" or because they're "desperate" or "uneducated" (most radicals are better educated than the rest of the population). You might be able to deal with poverty or lack of education or bad foreign policy -- those can, possibly, be changed. But you cannot really deal with fanatic religous belief in any constructive manner, especially when it comes after the fanatic has knowingly rejected "modernism" and "moderation." Alas.

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49. Comment #247000 by Cartomancer on September 13, 2008 at 5:12 pm

 avatarJavb222,

What you say about the islamic fundamentalism in Pakistan makes a lot of sense. But not everyone who feels alienated from society becomes violent, aggressive and vengeful. I know that, for those who do, these sorts of islamist ideologies are very appealing - that's not in doubt - but what I want to know is what happens at the stage before that. Why do some disaffected youths become attracted to violence in the first place (in any context, from teenage street gangs to islamic terrorist cells), while others remain placid and find other ways to cope? Is it a case that their attitudes are shaped by the first coping strategy which suggests itself, or are there biological and cultural factors involved as well?

If we can understand precisely what causes these youths to behave like this, we can work toward an effective cure. Solve the perennial problem of violence among male youths, a problem which goes back into our prehistoric and indeed our pre-human past, and at a stroke you massively ameliorate a whole host of other societal problems - including terrorism, domestic violence and gang culture.

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50. Comment #247001 by Nova on September 13, 2008 at 5:20 pm

The intelligence of the individuals is indeed funny but mostly irrelevant, what I worry about is the feeling in our society that Islam must be given absolute respect at any cost. The trouble is mostly not that if you laugh at Islam some dumb attempt to kill you will be staged, but the fact that non-Muslims who are thought of as clever will slander you because they feel a duty to defend Islam.

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