E-Petition: Abolish Faith Schools2. Comment #6906 by Jack Rawlinson on November 16, 2006 at 6:37 am
Richard's right - I think teaching about religion is very valuable. The first part of the petition might give the impression that it's seeking total abolition of religious teaching: "...prohibit the teaching of creationism and other religious mythology". The qualification provided later is better: "Creationism and other religious myths should not be taught as fact..."3. Comment #6907 by Richard Dawkins on November 16, 2006 at 6:38 am
PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION EXACTLY AS IT IS!7. Comment #6920 by Martin on November 16, 2006 at 7:31 am
Barry8. Comment #6928 by Roy on November 16, 2006 at 7:54 am
I had a friend who used to work with quote :"A couple of really nice young lads" then one particular day one of them said to him "You won't see us for the next few weeks, we are going away on a course, it is to do with our religion" They were in fact, members of the 'Plymouth Brethren' sect.9. Comment #6932 by Randy Ping on November 16, 2006 at 8:10 am
I wish we could petition like that here in the US. There are schools here that are faith based and they teach that Genesis IS LITERAL fact, that EVolution is lies, that the fossil record is being deliberately misrepresented by some world-wide conspiracy to "destroy Christianity" and out right fraud.12. Comment #6935 by Basil on November 16, 2006 at 8:21 am
Can't sign as not a UK citizen. That said, despite attending a Catholic school in Ireland, my experience of RE was quite a positive one. The teacher was not discernibly faithful at all. In fact, the class usually descended into a sociology free-for-all. Either that or a rather frank contraception Q&A. I can only imagine mine was not a typical experience!14. Comment #6948 by Jonathan Dore on November 16, 2006 at 9:11 am
Sadly, when I tried to sign, I found I couldn't since, even as a UK citizen, it won't allow you to sign if you don't have a UK or dependent territories address (I'm in Canada). I've emailed the site administrator to point out the anomaly.15. Comment #6954 by Diplo on November 16, 2006 at 10:33 am
I think there are really three separate issues here:16. Comment #6958 by Anonymous on November 16, 2006 at 11:00 am
If we ignore this, we will have school science trips to places like this17. Comment #6969 by Steven Mading on November 16, 2006 at 12:00 pm
I'd like to point out to my fellow Americans who speak of wanting to do something similar here with our faith-based schools, that I believe there is a large, signifigant difference between what this UK issue is about and what we see here in the US. The UK faith-based schools this petition talks about, as I think I've heard, are government-supported schools that are part of the government's official school system. In the US there do exist faith based schools but all of them are owned and run and funded by private citizens and churches, not by the government. (I wanted to use the terms "private school" and "public school", but those terms have opposite meaning between the UK and the USA, so that would have added confusion.)18. Comment #6976 by Randy Ping on November 16, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Steven, I'd like to point out to you that Bush's "Faith Based Initiatives" and school voucher programs ARE being used to funnel government funds to Faith Schools.19. Comment #7002 by Aussie on November 16, 2006 at 2:46 pm
Interesting development here in Australia. Our PM, Johnny Howard, is pushing ahead with a scheme to introduce, and fund from the public purse, a system of school "Chaplains" to "counsel" students. Each school can nominate whatever religion they wish their own "Chaplain" to be. The peculiar thing is that it will not be possible to appoint professionally qualified secular counsellors as they are banned from the scheme.21. Comment #7025 by Aussie on November 16, 2006 at 5:45 pm
Peter,22. Comment #7028 by Aussie on November 16, 2006 at 6:06 pm
I wish Richard Dawkins would come over here to Oz as part of his book promotion tour and as a bonus he could catch up with his old mate Robyn Williams.23. Comment #7029 by john_mcc on November 16, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Sectarian Apartheid has no place in Education. I went to a catholic school. As a child I was segregated from my neighbouring children who lived in the same street as me. My brother was bullied by them after school (For some reason I never was), but still I barely even knew the other children who lived in my local area when I was growing up. As an adult people who do not know me or my opinions make assumptions on what my opinions are likely to be on Northern Irish politics, and even which of Glasgow's 2 biggest football teams I am certain to support, and in both cases they would be wrong.24. Comment #7032 by Aussie on November 16, 2006 at 6:50 pm
My oldest and closest friend was a "Catholic child" while I was a "Protestant child". He naturally went to a Catholic school and I went to a State school. I learned to regard him as somehow inherently inferior to "us" - a form of untermensch. I assume his attitude to me was reciprocated as a result of the "facts" that he was taught. The insidiousness of the indoctrination has caused this irrational attitude of mine to persist into adult life - impervious to any attempt at intellectual purging. And yet he is still my oldest and closest friend. I have just had to learn to live with the subliminal prejudice in much the same way as many people do who suffer from a constant ringing in the ears.26. Comment #7132 by Skeptic Jim on November 17, 2006 at 9:24 am
Aussie,27. Comment #7135 by MB on November 17, 2006 at 9:45 am
There's also a slightly different petition available:28. Comment #7212 by Jonathan Dore on November 17, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Emme: Yes, it does just apply to state schools.29. Comment #7219 by Martha on November 17, 2006 at 6:18 pm
Billy Sands and the other dumb asses on this string think that religious "schools also lead to segregation and intolerance." Apparently the irony is lost on them as they attempt to abolish free expression and force everyone to think and study like they do.30. Comment #7322 by Martha on November 18, 2006 at 8:16 am
John Bolch claims to be for "promoting tolerance, reason and free expression." But by definition, tolerance means allowing others to live, think, and learn in ways different from your own. Free expression means allowing other people to express and study ideas that other people consider incorrect, without fear of force or retribution. And reasoning is an exercise that derives conclusions from premises that are always, at some level, suppositional.31. Comment #7346 by saneatheist on November 18, 2006 at 9:30 am
I have just come across this video which I think was made in the early 90s, my apoligies if most of you have already seen it.33. Comment #7529 by Martha on November 18, 2006 at 5:54 pm
McGlashan, please do not give me a lecture about Americans by relying upon your own bigoted stereotype about them. As pocked with injustice and mistakes as American history may be, and it certainly is, America's history hardly overshadows the bloodletting in the UK and Europe (or other places in the world) over the centuries. And by the way, without the stupid Americans, you would be speaking German right now.34. Comment #7675 by Martha on November 19, 2006 at 2:56 am
"No one is suggesting that children should not be taught that such mythologies exist, just that children be free to make up their own minds, when they are mature enough to do so."35. Comment #7741 by Anonymous on November 19, 2006 at 8:53 am
McGlashan, this is not "a question of state funding that is the difference," because you oppose diverse points of view in education even in an entirely private-funded home education situation. You want to tell people what they can do on their own time, in the privacy of their own homes, and with their own money.36. Comment #7766 by Anonymous on November 19, 2006 at 10:31 am
John Bolch, the issue is not whether some expression is more valuable or truthful than others, the issue is whether society will allow any person or group to have control over what is said and taught. What is the "final word" in science or medicine often is overturned based upon the efforts of some poor wretch who labors under the persecution of the scientific or educational (or religious) establishment. Science is very useful, but it cannot operate wholly upon "proven facts," only educated suppositions.37. Comment #7834 by Martha on November 19, 2006 at 3:42 pm
I think these three quotes basically summarize this discussion and the petition very well:40. Comment #13689 by MaineBarnard on December 19, 2006 at 5:37 am
There are stupid ideas in the world - this is just one of them!41. Comment #15350 by tuibguy on December 30, 2006 at 3:39 pm
42. Comment #26736 by elfinabout on March 21, 2007 at 12:15 pm
43. Comment #31412 by robinpclarke on April 12, 2007 at 2:01 pm
I have a serious objection to this petition. I am a committed scientist who believes in evidence, and whose four published (and unchallenged!) theories all are built around a core of natural selection. And no one can be more revolted than myself at the thought of children being taught creationist nonsense as fact.
1. Comment #6891 by Richard Dawkins on November 16, 2006 at 4:54 am
The point is not to abolish Religious Education. There is value in Religious Education, including Comparative Religion (for anthropologists tell us that religion is a ubiquitous human universal) and the King James Bible as literature (there are so many allusions to it in Shakespeare and other English literature). What is wrong -- indeed, arguably a form of mental child abuse -- is the INDOCTRINATION of children into one particular faith, which they are informed is THEIR faith, automatically inherited from their parents.