1. Comment #255814 by swingstar73 on September 28, 2008 at 9:59 am

I am a proud atheist and my girlfriend is an evangelical christian... so needless to say, we argue about everything all the time. This article inspired me to rant at her on IM for a little bit, and I wonder what you guys would think of what i said...

Please excuse the typos, i wasn't initially intending to have my rant posted on this forum.

swingstar73: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/09/28/carroll.preach.politics.cnn
swingstar73: this article kinda confuses me too
swingstar73: of course, i wasn't able to watch the video all the way through cause my internets retarded
swingstar73: but the thing i wonder is, why is it illegal for pastors to preach a political message?
swingstar73: isn't that kinda the whole point of being a pastor (or any public speaker) in the first place?
swingstar73: the question i wonder, is why is it illegal for pastors to preach politics in the first place
swingstar73: i mean, to me, i definitly religions functioning like lemmings or cults, whatever.... cause at least from my observations, religious people tend to always resort to "well my preacher knows the answer to that question" (which is a very scary though, to me)
swingstar73: so i understand why we wouldn't want anybody to become too powerful in a church, out of fear of them gaining a demagogue-like
swingstar73: position*
swingstar73: but i wonder, what the law has to say about it.....
swingstar73: because what i am saying, although possibly true, is not politically correct
swingstar73: aka, my opinion definitly would not fit in with the view of the majority
swingstar73: and really, political correctness is simply a reflection on what the majority says....
swingstar73: soooo..... what reason would the majority have for placing this limit?
swingstar73: the only thing i can think of is that maybe the supreme courts down the line have interpretted 'freedom of/from religion' with a little bit of a secularist twinge...... government will have no say in religion, and religion will have no say in government....
swingstar73: but i doubt you will find too many religious people, especially the ones who actually believe their religion, trying to say that somehow their bright shiny little nugget of spiritual truth is somehow incompatible with the way the government should be run.... are u kidding me??
swingstar73: if anything it couldn't be more the opposite..... religion inspires some of the most anti-social behavior
swingstar73: cause religion is essentially a claim of knowledge...... not a claim of preference
swingstar73: and nobody is going to against what they 'know' to be true...
swingstar73: ahhh now i got to see the whole video....
swingstar73: ok, so basically it is because the church is tax exempt
swingstar73: which raises an even bigger problem
swingstar73: CHURCHES SHOULD NOT BE TAX EXEMPT
swingstar73: i've been saying that ever since i started working at u.s. toy....... we were supposed to give tax exemption to churches..... but fuck that, i never willingly let the churches get away with it.... they should be taxed just like any other business
swingstar73: so the issue here is clear..... the reason why this fucked up law preventing pastors from preaching politics exists is because it is based upon an already fucked up existing law that forgets that if churches receive tax exemption status, then that goes entirely against the constitution
swingstar73: i think it's oddly funny because the reason why there is that lapse in logic that allows churches to get tax exemption status is simply because the majority of people are church goers, and they don't want to have to pay taxes (for purely self-serving reasons)...... but as a karmic twist.... for all of their self-serving, they managed to fuck themselves over, cause now as a tax exempt organization, they cannot preach politics
swingstar73: it'll be interesting to see what will happen.....
swingstar73: i tend to think it may be the kind of issue where the churches will start preaching politics, and people who don't look at the bigger picture will say "well yeah they should be able to speak their mind, thats violating freedom of speech"...... and then churches will be given both tax exemption status as well as having the power to preach politics
swingstar73: and then our government will be (once again) going against the constitution by supporting a religion
swingstar73: but because the only people that are going to argue against it are in the minority, it won't be stopped
swingstar73: and america will have unintentionally fucked itself over, yet again
swingstar73: because they didn't look at the bigger picture
swingstar73: and it doesn't surprise me that, as usual, the people that will fail to look at the bigger picture will be the religious
swingstar73: thats all religion is anyways..... it's just a convenient way for people to say "even though the truth of the matter may lie elsewhere, i don't really have the time or energy to try to find it..... so i am just going to pick my stance and stick with it....because thats just easier
swingstar73: so although the truth of the matter is that churches should not be tax exempt and preachers should be allowed to preach whatever the fuck they feel like (thus upholding the first amendment), america will simply say "yeah, but we are christians... we don't care whats right or wrong....we just simply feel the need to be right all the time, even when we aren't.... so fuck what the constitution says..... it doesn't fit in with my plan...... sure we understand why freedom from religion is important, and sure we understand what free speech is..... but guess what, as soon as it gets in our way... fuck it... because we're right and everyone else is wrong"
swingstar73: and then religion will be given the endorsement of the government (through the means of tax exemption) as well as the right to do and say whatever they want
swingstar73: thats so fucked up

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2. Comment #255820 by sornord on September 28, 2008 at 10:21 am

Never thought I'd be cheering the IRS...

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3. Comment #255821 by rustylix on September 28, 2008 at 10:24 am

These preachers could get away with endorsing whoever they want. All they have to do is NOT warn the media and IRS a week in advance.

I wonder what you guys would think of what i said...

I think in a year you probably won't have the same girlfriend. I've never dated a girl who wasn't "spiritual", or an "artist" for that matter, lol. Using "logic" and "evidence" to open her mind will just drive her into the arms of someone more accepting of her retardation. You've got to swallow your pride on this one for that tasty treat she's got you know where, lol.

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4. Comment #255825 by Ex~ on September 28, 2008 at 10:37 am

Cool. More tax revenue that should have been collected in the first place.

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5. Comment #255839 by Celandine on September 28, 2008 at 11:27 am

They consider the tax law unjust? Some of us think that the exemption of religious entities from taxes to be even more unjust.

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6. Comment #255843 by Theruiner on September 28, 2008 at 11:43 am

From the tax law:

"All IRC section 501(c)(3) organizations, including churches and religious organizations, must abide by certain rules:
-their net earnings may not inure to any private shareholder or individual,
-they must not provide a substantial benefit to private interests,
-they must not devote a substantial part of their activities to attempting to influence legislation,
-they must not participate in, or intervene in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office, and
-the organization's purposes and activities may not be illegal or violate fundamental public policy."

Basically, you don't pay into the system, you don't get to participate in the system. I won't get into blatant violations of the first point...

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7. Comment #255848 by notsobad on September 28, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Tax them and let them officially say whatever they want. They do it anyway.

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8. Comment #255852 by DarwinsPitbull on September 28, 2008 at 12:21 pm

What I don't understand is why these idiots decided to actually go out and tell the media they were going to do this. Is anyone here surprised to find out they are doing this? I am not, I'm just surprised that they would be dumb enough to tell the media they were going to do this. These churches endorse candidates all the time but they didn't hold press conferences telling the media this.

I hope the IRS goes after them, after of course they endorse Mccain and help him win.

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9. Comment #255860 by Hellene on September 28, 2008 at 12:35 pm

Free air time!

McCain, the ADF and the churches don't have to pay a dime.

They are not dumb...

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10. Comment #255865 by HourglassMemory on September 28, 2008 at 12:48 pm

Am I the only one feeling highly disturbed by seeing a grown man deciding to endorse a candidate purely because of biblical issues?
There are so many things wrong with the person and the fact that they're endorsing a condidate and the fact that people actually bother to interview people who wonder around theese big stone buildings talking with their imaginary friends as if it was important to hear their religious mumbojumbo.

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11. Comment #255868 by Verylee on September 28, 2008 at 1:04 pm

Comment #255865 by HourglassMemory

Am I the only one feeling highly disturbed by seeing a grown man deciding to endorse a candidate purely because of biblical issues?

No. I found it creepy, even sinister.

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12. Comment #255869 by Amnis73 on September 28, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Oh, that pastor's just upset because his parents gave him a girl's name.

Arrogant little twat. So much for the cornerstone of our constitution. I keep thinking that Americans have already reached the apex of their collective stupidity, and then they trump their previous deeds. Time and again.

Sigh... I wonder how long it will take me to become a NZ citizen after the elections... being associated with such nonsense is embarrassing.

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13. Comment #255892 by JWaltman on September 28, 2008 at 2:09 pm

I am really getting scared out here. I thought it was beyond miraculous that Bush was appointed twice (!) but McCain & Palin really creep me out. How on earth is it possible that people in the USA would vote on them? It's really terrifying to think that these people can get this far in trying to rule a great part of the world. it's even more terrifying that people are actually voting for these nutters.

As for for church which is supporting the Conservatives, it's getting really clear they got their morals from the bible, they're just pushing McCain to reach their Apocalypse asap in my opinion.

Greetings from a scared Dutchman.

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14. Comment #255895 by Titania on September 28, 2008 at 2:10 pm

13. Comment #255892 by JWaltman

Welcome to the club. I'm in the US and I am as scared as you are, if not more.

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15. Comment #255897 by Goldy on September 28, 2008 at 2:15 pm

In the NZ Herald
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10534699 - I put this one antoher thread too.

Amnis
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10534691

I think you'd be OK :-)

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16. Comment #255905 by JWaltman on September 28, 2008 at 2:28 pm

14#

I can imagine :(

I've seen some interviews with Palin, she's indeed talking like a beauty queen. I don't want to think about how she's planning to take care of the current Russia/Georgia problem. Obviously I thought McCain had some issues (bad ass issues), but no-one ever thought it to be possible for him to appoint Palin as VP.

Oh well, I always wondered how those horses would look like when they're flying, I'm about to know. (My guess is; warm, loads of molten ice water & some mushrooms in the sky. I really hope I'm wrong and the devil will take me down, he seems to be a lot nicer then god. I refuse to give god a capital g. My invisible friend doesn't get one either, he's called schizo)

And, thanks for the welcome! I've been visiting this place for some time now, but I never actually replied to these topics (in the front page section). RD & Pharygula made my internet life much better :)

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17. Comment #255915 by dansam on September 28, 2008 at 2:54 pm

This is GREAT news!
FINALLY... god comes to the rescue!
The economy will be "bailed out" by the gazillions of dollars we can collect from churches!

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18. Comment #255928 by dochmbi on September 28, 2008 at 3:17 pm

@ 3 I wouldn't sell my intergrity for sex.

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19. Comment #256051 by Shaka on September 28, 2008 at 5:14 pm

I consider them not being taxed, unjust.

The morons.

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20. Comment #256066 by jdaudett on September 28, 2008 at 5:31 pm

It strikes me that it's really simple, watch me pretend to be the IRS:
Yes, you can say whatever you like to your congregation. You are free to speak. We, being the IRS, needing to collect money to run things to benefit both you and your congregation are also free to tax you.

We don't tax you, and we set up a framework which says we won't tax you under these conditions. If you want to stray from those constitutional and federal guidelines, then we will also feel free to tax you. Sincerely, the IRS.

I mean come on, in the constitution it says that we won't make laws respecting any religious establishment. Theoretically, that means that the government should just tax all the churches, but due to public opinion and kindness, they don't.
Why do they want to tempt fate? If they want to tell their "flocks" about their opinions of Jesus' teachings on current governmental matters, tell people to "feel free to ask me privately." Then it's private speech, and you get around it.

But that isn't acceptable, because these militant Christians want the United States to be a Christian religious state, where religion is sacrosanct, and rationality comes second, maybe even third. Grrr.

At least, that's my interpretation. I'd be slightly surprised to hear that any synagogues joined in, and absolutely shocked if mosques joined in on this buffoonery.

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21. Comment #256088 by Amnis73 on September 28, 2008 at 5:58 pm

# 15 Goldy -

Awesome. I'm not really all that right-wing and I think NZ First is kind of a scary political party, but I do agree that if you immigrate to a country, you must respect the culture and laws of that country. You choose to be there. I am not allowed to spell lots of words w/ a 'z' here, and I respect that :)

I am still gobsmacked about the integration of Sharia courts in the UK - WHA?!?!

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22. Comment #256158 by bosshlk on September 28, 2008 at 7:53 pm

sad thing is that they'll probably not only get away with it, but also have the law changed.

Religion is the tumor on humanity's intellect; it retards development and causes grave blackouts.

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23. Comment #256159 by drumurr on September 28, 2008 at 7:55 pm

Churches should take some of the blame for the financial mess we are in as a country. If they are using that money for the good why wouldn't they want to do there part. After all this country paved their way. Talk about greed.

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24. Comment #256171 by abnjim7 on September 28, 2008 at 8:38 pm

This is all part of a contiuning conspiracy to spread "the word" to all US sheeple. It's Bullshit and like amnis73, I want out!

New Zealand has appealed to me for some time, and I have secured the documents necessary to become a new citizen of NZ. Amnis73, have you done any further research into your proposed re-location? I feel a strong need to distant my self from the madness that exists in this country. I do not feel safe here, either. Besides, and since my anscesters are welsh, I would probably to well in NZ. Agree?

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25. Comment #256173 by Diacanu on September 28, 2008 at 8:57 pm

JWaltman, Titania, Amnis73, abnjim7-

Ah, come on now, the challenges ahead should excite you!
Where's your sense of adventure?
where's your sense of dangerous fun??
The bad guys have put their cards on the table, and stand EXPOSED as the bad guys.
That actually makes the fight easier!
This stands to be the funnest part, and THIS is when you want to bail?

Other Comments by Diacanu

26. Comment #256180 by JDAM on September 28, 2008 at 10:38 pm

I have always thought that this religious exemption from taxes is ridiculous, the moreso when one sees just how much money some of these charlatans are raking in. They should be free to endorse anyone they want but if they want the protections and benefits of my United States they can help pay the freight just like the rest of us.

Many of them use the words "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and unto god the things that are god's' and interpret this to mean that "Ceasar" is any government and therefore has no claims on god's wealth and riches which these pastors are simply "keeping in trust" for the day the Big Guy stops by on his regular collection route. That any rational person still swallows this boggles the mind!

I hope these pastors really do piss off the IRS and it results in getting rid of this stupid and irresponsible regulation once and for all. Hell, they contribute to political candidates all the time!

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27. Comment #256181 by Titania on September 28, 2008 at 10:51 pm

Diacanu, tis true, but I am old and tired (ooh I can't say tired or Styrer will say I am tooting my own horn) and my sword is blunted from long years of seemingly useless struggle against the forces of darkness. May I not spend my last days on Laurie's acres, our little atheist utopia, petting the kookaburra, sipping Australian wine, shootin' the leftie breeze, and logging onto rd.net from afar to commiserate with all of you who remain chained under the dominion of the United Churches of America? We'll save a spot for you to pitch your tent. You can be the court jester when you arrive, the wisest and funniest of our merry little band of nontheists.

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28. Comment #256182 by righton on September 28, 2008 at 11:11 pm

Sorry, off topic.

Does anyone know if there has been a thread on here about this Obsession movie?

I live in Portland Or. A DVD of this movie was distributed with the Sunday Oregonian. I guess the group who made this DVD took out advertising with the Oregonian. The Oregonian is our only major newspaper so a lot of people will get this DVD.

http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/

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29. Comment #256203 by Rawhard Dickins on September 29, 2008 at 12:36 am

Tax them!

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30. Comment #256206 by 8teist on September 29, 2008 at 12:52 am

Rawhard, fuckin` A and 2000 years worth of back taxes too.

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31. Comment #256207 by Chris Davis on September 29, 2008 at 12:53 am

@ #256158 by bosshlk

The scary thing, I agree, is the high likelihood that these bastards will get away with it in some way. They may not succeed in acquiring permanent dispensation to preach politics, but nor are they likely to be appropriately punished for their illegal actions in a way that prevents its recurrence.

And if the courts impose anything less than severe, show-stopping punishment, other churches will be emboldened to repeat the actions, in numbers large enough to make a second round of more appropriate sanctions impractical.

The only hope is that the guardians of the US Constitution recognise what a dangerous challenge this is to the whole separation of Church and State: anti-constitutional and a giant step toward theocracy by stealth.

Unless this is thoroughly stomped on, it's a serious win for the forces of Stupid.

CD

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32. Comment #256364 by selucidantiochus on September 29, 2008 at 4:58 am

Lets hope they all start to become political, then their tax excemption can be attacked and revoked, this could be a great opportunity :P

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33. Comment #256393 by MarcLindenberg on September 29, 2008 at 5:27 am

I would love to see the church pay taxes.

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34. Comment #256476 by Lil_Xunzian on September 29, 2008 at 7:02 am

Hey Everyone!

I want you to all pray with me!

I ask God to grant the IRS the wisdom, fortitude, and strength to crush the seditious preachers in one swift, shock-'n'-awe-style blow. May there be lawfulness and taxes for all! Amen.

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35. Comment #256617 by Swordmaiden on September 29, 2008 at 9:26 am

nah, lets all buy an island...somewhere near New Zealand...and have our own god free country..and laugh at the rest of the world...ha ha ha ha!

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36. Comment #256631 by Riley on September 29, 2008 at 9:39 am

The scary thing, I agree, is the high likelihood that these bastards will get away with it in some way. They may not succeed in acquiring permanent dispensation to preach politics, but nor are they likely to be appropriately punished for their illegal actions in a way that prevents its recurrence.

The law is like a stop sign. Technically you are supposed to come to a complete stop, but in practice everybody gets away with a rolling stop. At least the law will prevent these pastors from being able to barrel right through the laws protecting a separation between church and state.


--- freedom of speech DOES NOT MEAN freedom from taxes. -----

Preachers: pay your taxes, and then you can promote from your tax-paying pulpit whichever political candidate you want!

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37. Comment #256776 by Colwyn Abernathy on September 29, 2008 at 1:55 pm

"If religion wants to have a say in politics and public policy, LET 'EM PAY THEIR FUCKING ADMISSION PRICE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE!"
-George Carlin

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38. Comment #257332 by King of NH on September 30, 2008 at 10:26 am

Maybe if all churches follow suit, the resulting tax revenue can be used to support the bail-out? C'mon Catholics! Heya Popey, who should we vote for? Mormon Elders have anything to say? There's some rich buggers.

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39. Comment #264583 by dvespertilio on October 14, 2008 at 11:05 pm

I know this is an old thread, but I felt compelled to add to it because the church next door has 5 signs up, two of them on public right of way, advocating an anti-gay marriage organization. I believe that this is also a violation of the IRS tax code. I finally called them and left a message on their answering service advising them of the situation and my offense at their behaviour. I doubt that will have any effect whatsoever, but it's the thought that counts. I tried to reach the IRS for comment yesterday, but was unable to get a live human there. Less than 3 weeks to the election, and I doubt that they'll do anything. I think it's time for a little civil disobedience and undercover sign removal. I'm going to see what I can do.

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