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Tuesday, October 21, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document 'I have never been happier' says the man who won gold but lost God

by Matthew Syed, Jonathan Edwards, Times Online

Olympic gold medalist Jonathan Edwards was mentioned in Richard Dawkins' radio interview yesterday. Here is an article from 2007 about his discarding of religion.

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article1991114.ece

A giant leap of faith took Jonathan Edwards to Olympic glory in Sydney. Then he found the foundations of his life were crumbling

It is the afternoon of September 25, 2000, and Jonathan Edwards is making his way to the triple jump final at the Olympic Stadium in Sydney. In his kitbag are some shirts, spikes, towels — and a tin of sardines.

Why the sardines? They have been chosen by Edwards to symbolise the fish that Jesus used in the miracle of the feeding of the 5,000. They are, if you like, the physical manifestation of his faith in God.

As he enters the stadium, he offers a silent prayer: "I place my destiny in Your hands. Do with me as You will." A few hours later he has captured the gold medal, securing his status as one of Britain's greatest athletes.

"I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

— Matthew xvii, 20


Edwards's faith was never an optional add-on. It has been fundamental to his identity — something that has permeated every fibre of his being — since his trips to Sunday school in the company of his devout parents; since he went to a Christian youth camp in North Devon and devoted his life to Jesus, tears streaming down his cheeks and his face glowing with divine revelation. Since he decided to risk everything to follow God's revealed path, moving to Newcastle in 1987 to become a full-time athlete in the belief that his preordained success would enable him to evangelise to an unbelieving world; since he withdrew from the World Championships in Tokyo in 1991 because his event was scheduled for the Sabbath.

By the time Edwards retired from athletics in 2003, he had established himself as one of Britain's most prominent born-again Christians. He soon landed the job of fronting a landmark documentary on the life of St Paul and also secured the presenting role on the BBC's flagship religious programme, Songs of Praise. He looked to have made the transition to life after sport with a sureness of touch that eludes so many professional athletes. Perhaps this was another advantage of his bedrock faith in God.

But even as he toured the nation's churches with his BBC crew, Edwards was confronting an apocalyptic realisation: that it was all a grand mistake; that his epiphany was nothing more than self-delusion; that his inner sense of God's presence was fictitious; that the decisions he had taken in life were based on a false premise; that the Bible is not literal truth but literal falsehood; that life is not something imbued with meaning from on high but, possibly, a purposeless accident in an unfeeling universe.

Having left his sport as a dyed-in-the-wool evangelical, Edwards is now, to all intents and purposes, an atheist. But why? It is a question that has reverberated around the Christian community since the rumours began to circulate when Edwards resigned from Songs of Praise in February. Edwards a backslider? Impossible.

I am sitting opposite Edwards, 41, in the garden of his large home in Gosforth on the outskirts of Newcastle, but he does not resemble a man whose world has been turned upside down. His boyish face, cropped with sparkling, silver-grey strands, is alert and alive. One gets the impression that he is looking forward to the ordeal of a lengthy interview. Perhaps he regards it as a kind of confessional, an opportunity to bare all and be done.

"I never doubted my belief in God for a single moment until I retired from sport," he says. "Faith was the reason that I decided to become a professional athlete, in the same way that it was fundamental to every decision I made. It was the foundation of my existence, the thing that made everything else make sense. It was not a sacrifice to refuse to compete on Sundays during my early career because that would imply that athletics was important in and of itself. It was not. It was always a means to an end: glorifying God.

"But when I retired, something happened that took me by complete surprise. I quickly realised that athletics was more important to my identity than I believed possible. I was the best in the world at what I did and suddenly that was not true any more. With one facet of my identity stripped away, I began to question the others and, from there, there was no stopping. The foundations of my world were slowly crumbling."

Edwards retains the earnest intensity that was his hallmark when he gave talks and sermons at churches up and down the country. He is a serious person who regards life as a serious business, even if he is now unsure of its deeper meaning. But why did someone with such a penetrating intellect leave it so long to question the beliefs upon which he had constructed his life? "It was as if during my 20-plus-year career in athletics, I had been suspended in time," he says.

"I was so preoccupied with training and competing that I did not have the time or emotional inclination to question my beliefs. Sport is simple, with simple goals and a simple lifestyle. I was quite happy in a world populated by my family and close friends, people who shared my belief system. Leaving that world to get involved with television and other projects gave me the freedom to question everything."

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

— 1 Corinthians i, 20


"Once you start asking yourself questions like, 'How do I really know there is a God?' you are already on the path to unbelief," Edwards says. "During my documentary on St Paul, some experts raised the possibility that his spectacular conversion on the road to Damascus might have been caused by an epileptic fit. It made me realise that I had taken things for granted that were taught to me as a child without subjecting them to any kind of analysis. When you think about it rationally, it does seem incredibly improbable that there is a God."

Would Edwards have been as successful a sportsman had he been assailed by such doubts? It is a question that the world record-holder confronts with bracing candour. "Looking back now, I can see that my faith was not only pivotal to my decision to take up sport but also my success," he says. "I was always dismissive of sports psychology when I was competing, but I now realise that my belief in God was sports psychology in all but name."

Muhammad Ali once asked: "How can I lose when I have Allah on my side?" Edwards understands the potency of such beliefs, even as he questions their philosophical legitimacy.

"Believing in something beyond the self can have a hugely beneficial psychological impact, even if the belief is fallacious," he says. "It provided a profound sense of reassurance for me because I took the view that the result was in God's hands. He would love me, win, lose or draw. The tin of sardines I took to the Olympic final in Sydney was a tangible reminder of that."

The upheaval of recent months has not left Edwards emotionally scarred, at least not visibly. "I am not unhappy about the fact that there might not be a God," he says. "I don't feel that my life has a big, gaping hole in it. In some ways I feel more human than I ever have. There is more reality in my existence than when I was full-on as a believer. It is a completely different world to the one I inhabited for 37 years, so there are feelings of unfamiliarity.

"There have also been issues to address in terms of my relationships with family and friends, many of whom are Christians. But I feel internally happier than at any time of my life, more content within my own skin. Maybe it is because I am not viewing the world through a specific set of spectacles."

"If I should cast off this tattered coat, And go free into the mighty sky; If I should find nothing there, But a vast blue, Echoless, ignorant — What then?

— Stephen Crane, The Black Riders and Other Lines


"The only inner problem that I face now is a philosophical one," Edwards says. "If there is no God, does that mean that life has no purpose? Does it mean that personal existence ends at death? They are thoughts that do my head in. One thing that I can say, however, is that even if I am unable to discover some fundamental purpose to life, this will not give me a reason to return to Christianity. Just because something is unpalatable does not mean that it is not true."

His crisis of faith offers a metaphysical dimension to the inner turmoil that afflicts so many sportsmen on their retirement. Some will say he has journeyed from light into darkness, others that he has journeyed from darkness into light — but none could doubt the honesty with which he has travelled. The Eric Liddell of his generation has sacrificed his religious beliefs on the altar of intellectual honesty, a martyr of a kind.

World of his own

— A committed Christian, Edwards refused to compete on a Sunday until 1993, most notably missing the 1991 World Championships in Tokyo. "It is an outward sign that God comes first in my life," he said at the time.

— Contested the World Championships for the first time in 1993, the first of five successive appearances, winning a medal at each one, including gold in 1995 and 2001.

— There was little hint of his 12 months to come in 1995 when, the previous year, he finished sixth at the European Championships, second at the Commonwealth Games and was ranked No 9 in the world.

— Edwards's life changed in 1995, when he set three world and seven British records, achieving the unprecedented feat of two world records in his first two jumps of the final of the World Championships in Gothenburg. His 18.29 metres that day remains the world record. His wind-assisted 18.43, to win the European Cup in Lille, is the longest triple jump on record.

— A run of 22 consecutive victories ended when he finished second to Kenny Harrison, of the United States, at the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games. Edwards had finished 23rd and 35th in his two previous Olympics and finished second and third at the World Championships between Atlanta and the 2000 Olympics in Sydney, where he took gold.

Words by David Powell

Comments 1 - 49 of 49 |

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1. Comment #268047 by Big City on October 21, 2008 at 11:08 am

 avatarLooks like Richard has been doing some research since talking to Bill Heine!

Other Comments by Big City

2. Comment #268065 by HandyGeek on October 21, 2008 at 11:33 am

 avatarI think I need to listen to the interview again.

Other Comments by HandyGeek

3. Comment #268076 by JerryD385 on October 21, 2008 at 11:45 am

Not only is this fascinating, but it boosts my confidence in the notion that anyone can use critical thinking and reason to overcome delusion.

Attributing winning a gold medal to god leaves a huge emotional impact, and before I read this article I would have assumed that such a thing would overcome any doubts or reason in his mind. As an example, I've heard Bill O'Reily use his career as proof of god. That may have been arrogance more than honesty, but this guy seemed like the real deal. Yet he was able to drop his delusional worldview with critical thinking.

This story should be read by believers, not to rub it in their faces, but to say, "drop the crutches of faith, it will be alright."

Other Comments by JerryD385

4. Comment #268100 by Matt H. on October 21, 2008 at 12:12 pm

 avatar
If there is no God, does that mean that life has no purpose? Does it mean that personal existence ends at death? They are thoughts that do my head in. One thing that I can say, however, is that even if I am unable to discover some fundamental purpose to life, this will not give me a reason to return to Christianity. Just because something is unpalatable does not mean that it is not true.

Jonathan Edwards


Well done that man.

Other Comments by Matt H.

5. Comment #268108 by severalspeciesof on October 21, 2008 at 12:24 pm

 avatarGlory be to reason!
And hallowed is its result!

Other Comments by severalspeciesof

6. Comment #268111 by FatherNature on October 21, 2008 at 12:26 pm

 avatarThanks for this. It's the sort of uplifting news I've badly needed after being assaulted for so long by depressingly irrational politics.

Score one for our team.

Other Comments by FatherNature

7. Comment #268113 by Big City on October 21, 2008 at 12:28 pm

 avatar
"It was as if during my 20-plus-year career in athletics, I had been suspended in time...I was so preoccupied with training and competing that I did not have the time or emotional inclination to question my beliefs. Sport is simple, with simple goals and a simple lifestyle."

I think this touches on a huge factor of religion. It's easy to live a life without questioning what you were told about existence, to maintain the level of critical thinking that you applied as a child. Especially when you're surrounded by people who agree, it takes no effort to concede. It is much more difficult to essentially pause your belief to think about it.

I think that the 'simple life' aspect is pivotal. 'Do what you're doing and don't complicate things by thinking about outside perspectives.' This is essential to the religious worldview. Coincidentally, I believe it is also conducive to being a Republican.

edit: I do agree with Matt @ 4, though. This is a triumph, and it's inspiring to see him state his reasoning so clearly.

Other Comments by Big City

8. Comment #268116 by MedMonkey on October 21, 2008 at 12:30 pm

 avatarThis story reminds me of the radio episode "Deception" on WNYC RadioLab. They talk about a study which shows that successful athletes tend to deceive themselves more than the average joe and not just about "being the best" and "being invincible", but about anything that otherwise would seem distasteful, such as "Have you ever thought about rape" - answer "No".

There are plenty of problems with the study (surveyers assume everyone at some point thinks about certain things), but it definitely highlights the benefits of living in a delusional fantasy land - these same people also tend to be happier and more content. Are there any studies out there that claim ignorance isn't bliss?

At least Jonothan Edwards gives me incredible hope.

I don't feel that my life has a big, gaping hole in it. In some ways I feel more human than I ever have. There is more reality in my existence than when I was full-on as a believer.


Even though he's British, maybe some of his intellectual candor will cross the ocean and infect this country where it seems athletics and academia are culturally diametrically opposed.

Other Comments by MedMonkey

9. Comment #268126 by Stafford Gordon on October 21, 2008 at 12:41 pm

I found this so heartening when I first heard about it last year; and I find it no less so now.

Well done him.

Other Comments by Stafford Gordon

10. Comment #268137 by Freethinker15 on October 21, 2008 at 12:52 pm

 avatarI only found out from a friend that Edwards was an atheist a few months ago, and I couldn't believe it. I had always found him to be so obnoxious with his faith, e.g. when it was reported that god told him to give up jumping. I mean come on, get real.

I'm glad to say that my opinion of him is now changing.

Other Comments by Freethinker15

11. Comment #268184 by 4horsefins on October 21, 2008 at 1:46 pm

 avatarWelcome...look forward to seeing you at converts corner.

One problem with conversion is we strive for the most intellectual of people to convert, when we should be desiring ordinary people with average educational background to convert.

I want more articles like this one...displaying the fact that even the average educated person with radical indoctrination can still be healed.

Other Comments by 4horsefins

12. Comment #268191 by GregPhillips on October 21, 2008 at 1:54 pm

 avatarMy respect for this man has just skyrocketted. I can barely believe he is the same man I dismissed as one of the most outspoken Xtians in the media has made such a dramatic turn round!

That just goes to show that Songs of Praise is enough to drive anyone away from God :)

I hate that fucking show.

Greg

Other Comments by GregPhillips

13. Comment #268199 by D'Arcy on October 21, 2008 at 2:00 pm

 avatarThe force of reason got the better of Darwin's belief too. And there are plenty of others whose lives suddenly have no room or time for God. I'm lucky; I never had time for God!

Other Comments by D'Arcy

14. Comment #268205 by Vaal on October 21, 2008 at 2:12 pm

 avatarThis is an old story, but an interesting one. I always wonder why one athlete considers God on his side, yet all the other athletes beside him are also praying to their God to win. Who does God choose? The most faithful, or the fastest runner? Is God that bothered to pop down from on high to watch the Olympics? Maybe it isn't Yahweh but Zeus/Jupiter, after all, Mount Olympus was his home.

Even the other week on X-Factor (yes, I am ashamed to say I watched it), one girl was convinced that God was personally responsible for her success. What did God have against the other poor contestant, crushed at losing (and in my opinion, unfairly, as she was a much better singer).

I wonder if it ever crosses her mind that the Creator of the entire Universe could possibly be interested in championing her to win a tacky TV talent show? You would almost think it preposterous :-)

I would remark, that Jonathan Edwards seems to have thrived since he saw the world around him without the rose coloured spectacles of religion. I commend him, especially as it could not have been easy on his family, friends and marriage.

Do you know who he is now Richard? I guess you aren't much of a sports fan :)

Other Comments by Vaal

15. Comment #268220 by Szymanowski on October 21, 2008 at 2:35 pm

 avatar
If there is no God, does that mean that life has no purpose? Does it mean that personal existence ends at death?
Those two conclusions are correct (though the questions are non-sequiturs). Somebody get this man a copy of TGD!

Other Comments by Szymanowski

16. Comment #268241 by mmurray on October 21, 2008 at 3:16 pm

 avatarGreat article but it has been posted here before

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1340,I-have-never-been-happier-says-the-man-who-won-gold-but-lost-God,Matthew-Syed-The-Times-Online

in June 2007. If the most recent convert to atheism we can find is over a year old we look a bit desperate. I suspect the link to put a comment on the website is a little redundant. (Edit: Actually the link is still active.)

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

17. Comment #268260 by gazzaofbath on October 21, 2008 at 3:42 pm

 avatarWow - I'm interested in sport and I knew years ago that he was a prominent - almost fundimentalist - believer. Wasn't he one of those who wasn't happy taking part in events on a Sunday? He was a great athlete.

This is the first I knew of his atheism - I think it takes a really special mind to have been indoctrinated for much of its life and then to break away in middle age.

I hate to be a points scorer but I think it more than counters the apparent movement of Anthony Flew in the other direction - depressingly, it seems, in his dotage.

Other Comments by gazzaofbath

18. Comment #268295 by amalthea on October 21, 2008 at 4:34 pm

 avatarFirst I've heard of this. I always admired him, and many other athletes at the time, but switched off when he was being interviewed. The news may be old, but the basic message is the same, anyone can overcome their childhood indoctrination.

I think it's a point we don't address her too much. I was pretty much agnostic as a kid, then grew into atheism, but I really can't imagine how difficult it is to change from being a dyed in the wool religious type to throwing that all away, dropping the crutches and possibly losing your family.

Congrats and support to anyone who goes through that.

A

Other Comments by amalthea

19. Comment #268378 by beanson on October 21, 2008 at 6:59 pm

 avatarHe doesn't give a catalyst for his doubt- what did he read, who did he talk to - did he have a Damacene deconversion-

I'd be interested to know (eg did he read TGD?)

Other Comments by beanson

20. Comment #268422 by njwong on October 21, 2008 at 8:04 pm

 avatar

16. Comment #268241 by mmurray on October 21, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Great article but it has been posted here before

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1340,I-have-never-been-happier-says-the-man-who-won-gold-but-lost-God,Matthew-Syed-The-Times-Online

in June 2007. If the most recent convert to atheism we can find is over a year old we look a bit desperate....


I do not find any problems with reposting articles that have been posted before, as there will always be new readers visiting this site for their first time. Reposted articles will still be fresh for the new visitors.

Other Comments by njwong

21. Comment #268472 by Alternative Carpark on October 21, 2008 at 8:52 pm

 avatarSo what does he want, a medal?

Other Comments by Alternative Carpark

22. Comment #268512 by aprilmb on October 21, 2008 at 10:44 pm

Maybe there is hope that more will follow the same logic. I shudder when I hear politicians who aspire to world leadership invoke some deity or another, as was the case in Canada after our recent election, and as is happening elsewhere. Which brings me to another point - the headline - "...won gold but lost God." You can't lose something that doesn't exist.

Edit: #22 Alternative Carpark - that's really funny!

Other Comments by aprilmb

23. Comment #268517 by Roy_H on October 21, 2008 at 10:55 pm

 avatar"Edwards's faith was never an optional add-on. It has been fundamental to his identity �" something that has permeated every fibre of his being �" since his trips to Sunday school in the company of his devout parents; since he went to a Christian youth camp in North Devon and devoted his life to Jesus, tears streaming down his cheeks and his face glowing with divine revelation."

Yes he was suffering from "The God Delusion"! Indoctrinated as a child by devout parents. A classic example of been given a metaphorical set of blinkers to put on.
I here stories like this and it reminds me of that classic scene in "Father Ted"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BDNvLiKcZN0

Even an idiot can see quote: 'its nonesense isn't it?'
By the way, if you have Google Earth and you type 'Father Ted' you can zoom in on the actual house where the series was filmed.

Other Comments by Roy_H

24. Comment #268518 by Disbelief on October 21, 2008 at 10:55 pm

 avatarComment #268375
Vijay

I think he addresses the inspirational value that religion had on him when he said:

"Looking back now, I can see that my faith was not only pivotal to my decision to take up sport but also my success," he says. "I was always dismissive of sports psychology when I was competing, but I now realise that my belief in God was sports psychology in all but name."


I don't think this aspect of religion is a bad thing if it is channeled into triple jumping however if you are a xtian then you also believe that adultery is wrong, gays are evil, women are inferior to men, etc.

Having a positive mental attitude can enable you to achieve great things but you don't have to buy into all the other rubbish that religions espouse.

You don't need god to be great.

Other Comments by Disbelief

25. Comment #268519 by mordacious1 on October 21, 2008 at 11:00 pm

 avatar"Why the sardines? They have been chosen by Edwards to symbolise the fish that Jesus used in the miracle of the feeding of the 5,000. They are, if you like, the physical manifestation of his faith in God."

Sardines ARE a good symbol of christianity. Once you get into it, you notice something smells fishy.

Other Comments by mordacious1

26. Comment #268556 by AForce1 on October 22, 2008 at 1:27 am

Whenever one sees successful athletes from Catholic countries like Spain or Poland, they offer some kind of thank you to the sky as if to say "thank you god". Spanish footballers are very fond of kissing 2 fingers and offering them to the sky. Why don't they offer 2 fingers to the sky when they miss an open goal? If god helps them score he must surely mean them to miss. Or am I being too atheist?

Other Comments by AForce1

27. Comment #268572 by Disbelief on October 22, 2008 at 1:57 am

 avatarComment #268518
Vijay

Sorry I misunderstood what you meant by unaddressed.

Specifically it is hard/impossible to be delusion free and simultaneously believe that there is a force greater than yourself backing you in your lofty ambitions, or that achieving your lofty ambitions are your divine purpose in life. As a rationalist, atheist you realize that the universe is pitifully indifferent to humans and their ambitions and that there is no higher power that wants you to succeed in your goal.


I totally agree and the positive mental attitude that athletes try to attain is overcoming their rational mind telling them that they may not actually be the best at what they do.

A little bit of self delusion isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I don't know about Twain but I fear death - I'm not finished being great yet.

:D

Other Comments by Disbelief

28. Comment #268578 by Mrs Gregory on October 22, 2008 at 2:09 am

 avatarAs someone who is originally from the north east of England, I saw Mr Edwards on the TV all the time. Generally more often than not he was spouting on about God and Jesus. I remember one Sunday morning watching a BBC programme (a religious one) and Jonathan Edwards was been interviewed. The interviewer asked him as he had just bought a £70,000 Porsche, how did this sit with his Christian principles, especially as people were starving to death in Africa for the want of a pound. After a slight pause Mr Edwards replied he was comfortable about his purchase of said 70k Porsche as god must want him to have it. I nearly fell of the sofa laughing at the man and then I got really angry. You can really justify anything as long as you believe your god wants you to have it or do it.

I'm god smacked (pardon the pun) that he has lost his faith, reading the article its clear that he was indoctorated from early age by his parents; it's no wonder he turned out to be a bible basher. Anyway good for him that he has questioned the lies and Bronze Age myths his parents forced upon him. Reading this article I believe there is hope for other people to cast off the straight jacket of religion.

The world is a fascinating place to live Jonathan and you don't need imaginary friends to make it that way. Your purpose in life should be to live it to the full as we only have a short time but to revel in it.

Other Comments by Mrs Gregory

29. Comment #268612 by Chris Davis on October 22, 2008 at 3:26 am

 avatarHa! Proof that all that exercise is bad for your brain:

While he was doing all that running and jumping, his cerebra were receiving too little oxygen - it was all going to his laigs! As soon as he slowed down and relaxed, rational thought returned.

I'm staying here on this couch, lest I suffer the same derangement.

CD

Other Comments by Chris Davis

30. Comment #268614 by V'Ger on October 22, 2008 at 3:28 am

 avatar"Just because something is unpalatable does not mean that it is not true"

These words should be tattood on a few people I can think of ;-)

"Mr Edwards replied he was comfortable about his purchase of said 70k Porsche as god must want him to have it"

Brilliant reply! Should have just said "God is a capitalist wanker, fuck dead babies - he loves his cars". Anyway Everybody knows God only drives Alfa Romeo's ;-)

Other Comments by V'Ger

31. Comment #268628 by AdrianB on October 22, 2008 at 4:02 am

 avatarI've posted this before, but my favourite piece of nonsense posted on a religious site was in response to this story:

http://www.aboutlife.com/gazdunn/jonathan_edwards_faith_certain_doubts

I just read this article about Jonathan Edwards loss of faith. It is really sad to see a man whose faith in God has collapsed along with his marriage.

One comment in the article was the most telling for me.

"I don't claim to fully understand what I am feeling other than to acknowledge that something I never doubted - God - I have huge doubts about now."

He states that he never doubted God and this to me appears to be the beginnings of the problem. Now I have been a Christian for about 2 years and ever since I first noticed God working in me and others I have had doubts about his existance. I have seen God do some amazing things in people and in myself yet occasionally I still have doubts. The bible is full of people who doubt God, Thomas, Abraham (God will give him a child), Moses (God will use him to lead his people out of Egypt) ect. Lots and lots of doubters.

Now, because I experience doubts often, they aren't as crippling. I read my bible, do some research, think over all of the things I think I have seen God do. I look at the world and see how God fits into what I see in my friends and family. I read books, watch films (nearly every book or film a story of good vs evil or redemption), listen to music, most of which if Christian are praising God, or if secular, searching for him. I see the mistakes people make in trying to fill their lifes with someone or something other than God. I see the beauty of creation and the joy it gives to everyone. I see the effect of art, a God given impulse, on people that don't know him and on myself.

It is not a matter of closing my mind to opposing (non-Christian) viewpoints. It may be scary to deal with them at first, but as you get deeper you realise their flaws and assumptions. To be more secure in your faith you need to have knowledge about other views. If you don't deal with them throughout your journey, one may come and cripple you later on. That is why alpha has been such a blessing to me as it has forced me (often uncomfortably) to deal with opposing viewpoint or evidence.

I suggest we pray for Jonathan Edwards that he will come back to God and that his blind-faith with return with opened eyes. We should never fear doubting because we can trust that God will show us the evidence. The very act of doubting and reaffirming our faith brings us closer to Him.


LOL

Other Comments by AdrianB

32. Comment #268636 by Pertwee's Bouffant on October 22, 2008 at 4:31 am

 avatarGood for Edwards. It does show a sound mind to start to question everything he believed when he suddenly has time on his hands and is away from the purpose and drive behind his life - athletics, and considerable bravery to tell everyone.

The unmistakable sound of a penny dropping.

Other Comments by Pertwee's Bouffant

33. Comment #268641 by mixmastergaz on October 22, 2008 at 4:38 am

 avatarI enjoyed reading this and will admit I recognise something of the experience I went through when I lost my faith. However, I do think that describing life as "a purposeless accident in an unfeeling universe" is over-egging it a bit on the existential angst front (mixed metaphor, sorry, but you know what I mean). Whilst I wouldn't dispute the truth of this statement, its tone is unnecessarily bleak. I agree with Hitchens when he says that the fact that the God of the three 'great' monotheistic religions does not exist is cause for celebration! It's a liberation from a "supernatural dictatorship"; it's seeing the light rather than being blinded by it.

Edit: Whilst the universe itself is undoubtedly "unfeeling", we marvellous ape-descended, carbon-based lifeforms are not. We have a remarkable capacity for feelings of empathy, joy, compassion etc. And we can add purpose to our own lives in many spendid and wondrous ways if we only have the courage and imagination to do so, unhindered by inherited and out-dated superstition.

Other Comments by mixmastergaz

34. Comment #268664 by Shane McKee on October 22, 2008 at 5:38 am

 avatarYes, it's old news, but it's a good article. Does anyone know if there have been any updates on how he's been getting on lately? He took a serious amount of flak over this (which a lot of us can identify with).

Other Comments by Shane McKee

35. Comment #268673 by Vaal on October 22, 2008 at 6:01 am

 avatarIsn't it strange how he didn't turn into a baby eating monster when he became an atheist. Of course, a religious friend of mine claims that I recieved my morals from a Christian upbringing, which is the bog standard response by the Religites.

Of course, having to go to church three times a Sunday, listen to a demented preacher bullying children with hell fire and damnation, fighting with the kids from another Sunday school was obviously good for my moral upbringing. Man, how much I hated Sundays!

Shane, yes, I would be interested in an update.

mixmastergaz Good post.

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36. Comment #268677 by Laurie Fraser on October 22, 2008 at 6:11 am

 avatarA little bitter, Vaal? I know, mate - I had these ratbags shoving nonsense down my throat every Sunday, too. Eventually, I decided that I didn't need somebody else's notions about what "morality" was - I just worked it out for myself. Gives the lie to "biblical" authority, doesn't it?

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37. Comment #268698 by Vaal on October 22, 2008 at 6:34 am

 avatarHiya Laurie, recovered from the cricket yet? :)

Yep, do you know, if I had my time over again, I would have refused outright to go, but it would never have occurred to me as a child.

Yes, I have no love of those memories from those Sundays when I was in boarding school in N.Ireland, but to be fair, we did go to a Methodist church in England where the vicar was possibly one of the nicest guys I have ever met, (and I had a terrible boyish crush on his wife) so I can't tar them all with the same brush.

In fact, his son and I were best friends and were mad keen astronomers, we built a telescope together at school, and we are meeting up this weekend as he is over from the US to see his family (first time I have seen him in 25 years). He is now a professional Astronomer.

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38. Comment #268701 by Laurie Fraser on October 22, 2008 at 6:38 am

 avatarComment #268698 by Vaal

Why do people keep mentioning the cricket?

Wow - they are GOOD memories, Vaal. I had similar - for all of the fucktardness of the religious aspect, I met, and grew up with, some great people. I hope you have a great time with your mate from the U.S. - I'm sure you will.

Edit: Tell you what, though, Vaal, the Indians were superb - beat us hands down.

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39. Comment #268702 by Lemniscate on October 22, 2008 at 6:41 am

 avatarHaving read physics at Durham, Edwards probably has sharper thinking skills and scientific literacy than most fundamentalists.

I am, however, pleased not to have him preaching on local TV any longer.

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40. Comment #268718 by rod-the-farmer on October 22, 2008 at 7:24 am

 avatarSo when will we get to see just which questions he asked himself, that caused his loss of faith ? Without the details, this story is of minimal value. I would like to see them, so I can put those same questions to other fundies.

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41. Comment #268938 by posiedon on October 22, 2008 at 12:47 pm

 avatarJonathan Edwards father was the parish priest at the village Church where we buried my youngest sister two and a half years ago.
We had a bit of a dilemma because although she was not religious, she wanted to be buried next to her dad (who was already in the Churchyard) My mother had a word with the Vicar (J E's dad) and he let us conduct a completely non religious funeral service in the Church, in which he took no part, other than to welcome people.

It was shortly after that J E lost his faith, and very shortly after that his dad took early retirement.

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42. Comment #269252 by Dispiracist on October 22, 2008 at 7:12 pm

 avatar
19. Comment #268375 by vijaykrishnan on October 21, 2008 at 6:54 pm

a disproportionate amount of wealth, jobs etc. are created by overconfident entrepreneurs who in their minds downplay the possibility of failure, rather than by folks who accurately evaluate risks and decide that they want to startup despite a 90% chance of failure.


Sorry, I haven’t read your other blog post.

But I have a couple of comments on this one:

The real probability of success and of failure are just inverses of each other. There is an element of framing bias, but I think it would be unlikely that irrational religious belief adds to those natural psychological biases. Because these biases are already very strong in non-believers.

The stats on new venture failures might be impossible to determine. There’s a common misconception that most new business fail fairly quickly, but there are reasons to believe this is incorrect. (Project completion, purpose served, amalgamation or acquisition by other projects.) The reason for genuine entrepreneurial failure may be more to do with the timing of the venture’s establishment or expansion in the business cycle.

Entrepreneurs who establish new ventures are using real money, including their own time and resources, and they don’t just do it based on gut feeling or unjustified hopes and dreams. They are not overconfident because they, or someone they trust, has normally done the numbers based on the best information reasonably obtainable. If anything many entrepreneurs might miss opportunities because they are too conservative.

What often does them in, despite careful plans, is activity in the overall banking system - something they cannot estimate or forecast. So the actual chance of failure, for economic reasons out of their control, will vary considerably over the business cycle. Theory indicates that most wealth and jobs would be created by those who do accurately evaluate risks. The complexity of the real world means it may not be possible to demonstrate this – so the theory is all we have to work with.

On the performance of athletes:

In most top sports competitors are all pretty much similar physically and mentally, they take pretty much the same performance enhancements and screening agents, and undergo similar training and coaching. At a very high level the difference between these athletes basically comes down to luck. Which boils down to consistency, in working very hard to limit the range of performance over which luck has an impact.

The positive mental attitude is not the motivation. It is just an effective mental tool for suppressing doubts to avoid critical and analytical thoughts which might otherwise inject a degree of variability to performance. Athletes don’t necessarily have to really believe they are the best or that god is helping them, just to imagine they are and think as if they were. But they don’t get to be the best by trying really hard to fool themselves into it.

Athletic performance is no different to other forms of entrepreneurial endeavour. A lot of rational planning goes into it. As with most things, the actual visible performance is just the tip of the iceberg.

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43. Comment #270281 by Vaal on October 24, 2008 at 1:39 am

 avatar44. Comment #269252 by Dispiracist
At a very high level the difference between these athletes basically comes down to luck.

Usain Bolt?

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44. Comment #270363 by irate_atheist on October 24, 2008 at 5:09 am

 avatar45. Comment #270281 by Vaal -
Usain Bolt?
Lucky bastard.

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45. Comment #270907 by MRA on October 24, 2008 at 11:09 pm

 avatarRespect to Jonathan Edwards - for balance I hope that he is becomes equally 'evangelical' about telling people about his new way of thinking.

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46. Comment #271496 by jabber on October 25, 2008 at 6:33 pm

 avatari dont want to sound too skeptical - but one could put onto this the following construction:

He made a deal with 'GOD' to reach his ambition, then when he no longer 'needed' 'GOD'- becasue he had achieved it...he abandoned his 'faith'...a bit like the way stars cast off the manager who got them there, and move on without so mucha s a backward glance. He got what he wanted - now he can afford to disavow his previosuly professed faith, on teh strength of which he was given emotional and financial support by the emmebrs of the church he joined. He needs neither their spiritual, emtionla or financial support naymore, so they have become redundant..... or am i being a bit too mean? Amibtion can drive to the most apalling acts of self-interest.

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47. Comment #271550 by MRA on October 26, 2008 at 12:03 am

 avatarjabber- I don't think this is some kind of contractual dispute, or an investment gone wrong. As with all movements (save for ones that scare people into action) all they will do is 'support' people and hope for a favorable outcome. I am sure Edwards is grateful for all the support that they gave him.

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48. Comment #272286 by jabber on October 27, 2008 at 7:32 am

 avatarComment #271550 by MRA on October 26, 2008 at 12:03 am

I know what you mean.. and i was being very cyncial - it's just that however grateful he is...he doesn't really need them now, illustrated by the fact that it is no longer in his interests to cultivate their approval quite so much as it was hitherto. Still, at least he didn't abandon reason for unreason... so perhps there is a God..LOL!!

PS. as always apologies for the typing - i'm not dyslexic, but my fingers are

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49. Comment #277478 by markrdlong on November 3, 2008 at 10:08 pm

Any faith built on literalism will eventually crumble. The problem with so much evengelical and pentecostal forms of Christianity is that they rely on Scripture to be infallible, when actually it records myth (stories that reveal truth, rather than are "true" themselves). Edwards fall from faith is to be expected - he built his faith on sand.

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