Wednesday, October 22, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Recommended Reading: Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment

by Phil Zuckerman

See:
http://www.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148/?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwsamharriso-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0814797148

Contrary to the views of many conservative pundits and the Christian Right, the least religious countries in the world today are not full of chaos and immorality, but are actually among the safest, healthiest, most well-educated, prosperous, ethical, and successful societies on earth. Based on a year's worth of research conducted while living in Scandinavia, SOCIETY WITHOUT GOD by Phil Zuckerman explores life in a largely secular culture, delving into the unique worldviews of secular men and women who live in a largely irreligious society, and explaining the reasons why some nations are less religious than others, and why religious faith doesn't seem to be the secret to national success that so many claim it to be.

"Most Americans are convinced that faith in God is the foundation of civil society. Society Without God reveals this to be nothing more than a well-subscribed, and strangely American, delusion. Even atheists living in the United States will be astonished to discover how unencumbered by religion most Danes and Swedes currently are. This glimpse of an alternate, secular reality is at once humbling and profoundly inspiring--and it comes not a moment too soon."

-Sam Harris, a Co-Founder of the Reason Project and author of the New York Times best sellers The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation

Posted: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 | Permalink

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1. Comment #268882 by eh-theist on October 22, 2008 at 11:27 am

Odd. I was brought up that society couldn't survive without god. Was I lied to?

What is so important about a book like this is that many "believers" firmly believe that non-believers are murderers, rapists, thieves, etc.

I know this isn't news to any of us, but this book goes a LONG way to show 1.) how secular these societies are and 2.) how much better they are for it.

Great book. Just ordered a copy for a friend too!

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2. Comment #268890 by bjornove on October 22, 2008 at 11:43 am

As a Norwegian I can confirm that religion play a less and less role in the Scandinavian society.
Crime rate has always been low in Norway, and murder rate has even gone down the last few years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGTzbj3fRSw

Although this is definitely a little too, well.. glossy, even for us Norwegian (we still have a loads of problem to solve and we do have crime too), it's definitely true that a good social and political system, not religion, is the best way to create a good society for everyone

By the way, I am a biology teacher in high school here, and although there's creationist here too, teaching evolution is generally no problem. I don't mind discuss creationism in science class if the issue comes up( in order to show it's non-science of course) but it's almost a non-issue here. In fact, people accepting evolution here in Norway is actually all time high now. Around 82% which fully or partially accept evolution. Of course, some of these are theistic evolutionists.Only 1 out of 10 completely deny evolution. And these polls have gone on for more than 20 years now.

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3. Comment #268893 by RHR on October 22, 2008 at 11:46 am

I live in Norway, and in all my life I have only had one friend that's religious. Of course he belives in evolution and supports gay marriage and such, so by american standards he's not much of a christian. As for my other friends, religion just isn't much of a topic other than the occasional rant about crazy fundamentalists they have read about in the news.

In general I just assume that everyone I meet is non-religious, and if someone reveals themselves as christians they're usually very quick to ensure me of how liberal they are.

Strangely enough, of all the various educational institutions I've been through, the group with the highest rate of christians was my class at university, studying natural sciences.

Other Comments by RHR

4. Comment #268894 by jeggers on October 22, 2008 at 11:47 am

I've been considering moving to scandanavia from the uk for precisely this reason. but is it just a matter of time until immigration brings with it the baggage of religion and it starts to impinge on their society? its about £8 a pint which could be the deciding factor.

Other Comments by jeggers

5. Comment #268895 by Laith on October 22, 2008 at 11:48 am

Here is an interview with Phil Zuckerman on Danish TV:
http://atheistmedia.blogspot.com/2008/10/phil-zuckerman-society-without-god.html

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6. Comment #268907 by RHR on October 22, 2008 at 12:02 pm

#268890 bjornove:
I attended a christian high school in Norway because it was convenient for me as it was only a 5 min. walk from my home. Even there I never witnessed any hesitation to teach evolution and other science topics. I can also add that in my class, less than half were actually christian, even though it was the only christian high school in the region.

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7. Comment #268912 by Kraes85 on October 22, 2008 at 12:12 pm

I'm from Denmark. I'm surprised that Zuckerman didn't choose to interview anyone from Norway as it has the highest rate of irreligion of the Scandinavian countries (if I remember correctly). Norway is also the richest... surprise surprise.

I think the rates of irreligion were around 30-40% in Denmark and Sweden with Norway about 5-10% higher. Can anyone confirm this?

Testing for acceptance of evolution in Denmark has all but ceased since it has been stable at around 80 % for ages. I'm guessing that interest will be renewed though ...
To be sure, as the number of Muslims increase due to immigration, acceptance is likely to go down.

With regard to crime: Rates for most crimes are falling or stable in Denmark. The important exception is severe violent crimes.
So, of course, Denmark is not without it's problems as well.

@jeggers
I think you're right - it's just a matter of time before religion begins to play a bigger role. At least the religion of Islam. But if that time comes, I'm guessing religious hatred is just going increase and Muslims will be thrown out in large numbers (in spite of EU-law - we do have a tradition of ignoring it anyway). It'll be a shame if it comes to that sort of thing though...
My recommendation is: Move to Australia instead. The surf's better.

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8. Comment #268917 by jenlaferriere on October 22, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Sounds like a great read.

I'm just not sure that it will be read by those that need the message. I can imagine the fleas now: Society with God, Society Possible Without God?... etc.

Those will get read by the christian right.

I live in what is commonly referred to as the Canadian Bible Belt (Alberta) and coming from a city like Ottawa, the seat of Canadian governemnt and one of the most secular and progressive cities in Canada I often get into conversation with evangelical christians, who are not interested in learning that their views are so wrong... I doubt this or any other book will get to them. Unfortunately.

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9. Comment #268918 by jeggers on October 22, 2008 at 12:20 pm

Comment #268912 by Kraes85
well as long as they're not as weak kneed as the british government Ill move anywhere.

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10. Comment #268920 by fides_et_ratio on October 22, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Looking at the title I expected to see something about North Korea or China rather than countries with Christian constitutions. Strange that.

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11. Comment #268922 by RHR on October 22, 2008 at 12:25 pm

Kraes85:
I don't know the exact numbers, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if what you say is true. My own experience certainly supports it.
Statistics about religious affiliation in Norway can often be a little misleading because of the state church. Quite alot of people are members of it, many of them probably without knowing it. I was babtised so even I am a member of it! You can of course stop being a member, but most people(like myself), don't really bother.

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12. Comment #268923 by bjornove on October 22, 2008 at 12:25 pm

Comment to #268907 RHR
I was actually teaching science in a christian private school several years ago and can confirm what you say here. Many of these private schools are actually very good and I know many non-christians who choose these schools for this very reason and also because it's just convenient as was your reason

By the way, although I agree with Dawkins on issues on religion I am not preaching anti-religion as a teacher. I would certainly not hesitate to challenge anyone's belief (any belief , religious or secular) if the issue comes up in class. But I will always try to do it in a respectful way. I teach the evidence for evolution and if someone choose not to accept evolution or be a theistic evolutionist, I have no problem with that. I present the science as best as I can. It's up to people themselves to decide what they want to believe.

I was brought up as a pentecostal christians (no wonder I am atheist now)and have christian friends and family which I hold very dear. Challenge their faith, Yes, but mocking, No!

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13. Comment #268924 by alabasterocean on October 22, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Sweden rules!

Made in Sweden, Dennis

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14. Comment #268929 by kaiserkriss on October 22, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Fides:

Just goes to show that logic CAN overcome ignorance and intolerance.jcw

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15. Comment #268930 by Peacebeuponme on October 22, 2008 at 12:35 pm

fides

Looking at the title I expected to see something about North Korea or China rather than countries with Christian constitutions. Strange that.

We have to compare like with like, so demoracy to democracy, dictatorship to dictatorship.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

16. Comment #268934 by jeggers on October 22, 2008 at 12:42 pm

14. Comment #268929 by kaiserkriss
I know it was a passing comment but I'd disagree. In recent times surely Scandanavia hasn't been presented with such a challenge. If more aggressive strains of religion get a grip will liberal attitudes allow it to embed itself Da'wah style before the society is forced to lose its spine to save its neck.

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17. Comment #268939 by nalfeshnee on October 22, 2008 at 12:48 pm

Interesting point. I went and checked the constitutions of Denmark, Sweden and Norway.

Result:

Denmark Danish constitution is fairly "religious", specifying e.g. "The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the Established Church of Denmark, and, as such, it shall be supported by the State." and also "The King shall be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church." Mind you, the "Freedom of Religion" section is excellent: "No person shall for reasons of his creed or descent be deprived of access to complete enjoyment of his civic and political rights, nor shall he for such reasons evade compliance with any common civic duty." Note the last bit!

Sweden is, as far as I can see, utterly secular. No mention of the words "Christian" or "church" in connection with the state. It allows freedom to practice religion and that's it.

Norway is similar to Denmark, stating that "The Evangelical-Lutheran religion shall remain the official religion of the State. The inhabitants professing it are bound to bring up their children in the same." and "The King shall at all times profess the Evangelical-Lutheran religion, and uphold and protect the same." But it goes further than Denmark. Astonishingly, it also states that "More than half the number of the Members of the Council [i.e. "Cabinet"] of State shall profess the official religion of the State." And, perhaps to be expected, "A Member of the Council of State who does not profess the official religion of the State shall not take part in proceedings on matters which concern the State Church."

Conclusions? Dunno, really.

Basically, though, it seems as though the religiosity of a Constitution has little to do with the interests of its citizens.

My sources:

http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/sw00000_.html
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/no00000_.html
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/da00000_.html

Those interested in the constitutions of North Korea and China can look here:

http://www.novexcn.com/dprk_constitution_98.html
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html

Both mention religion far less explicitly, interestingly enough.

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18. Comment #268944 by jonaseriksson on October 22, 2008 at 12:53 pm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Europe_belief_in_god.png

We're number one! ;) /Sweden

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19. Comment #268945 by Janus on October 22, 2008 at 12:53 pm

I thought those countries all had a significant Muslim minority.

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20. Comment #268950 by nalfeshnee on October 22, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Oh, and my favorite constitution must be the Russian one:

Article 14 [Secularity of the State]

(1) The Russian Federation is a secular state. No religion may be instituted as state-sponsored or mandatory religion.
(2) Religious associations are separated from the state, and are equal before the law.

I wouldn't want to import the whole thing, but I don't think anyone could argue with Article 14 - even if they were religious. In fact, especially if they were.

Source: http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/rs00000_.html

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21. Comment #268956 by blakjack on October 22, 2008 at 1:07 pm

RHR wrote from Norway:

[quote]In general I just assume that everyone I meet is non-religious, and...[/quote]

Now that's a very positive attitude that I will try to adopt henceforth. Instead of curbing my tongue for fear of offending sensibilities, maybe I should just say what I think and sod the fact that I might upset someone who follows strange religious myths.

Jack

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22. Comment #268962 by Henri Bergson on October 22, 2008 at 1:12 pm

As a quasi-Swede I should like to add a few points (this is the hard truth!):

1. Swedish (and Danish, Norwegian) liberalism comes from its inherited Lutheranism. I.e. Scandinavian liberalism is a legacy of Northern Christianity.

2. This extremist social democratic liberalism is destroying Sweden: it lets in and supports immigrant muslims who are destroying its culture and raping its women (look up the post-immigrant rape stats).

3. All prescriptive morality is a delusion, like religion, and as such is a faith. Utilitarianism, socialism, contractarianism is all bullshit.

4. The Swedes are irreligious yet moral - but their morals are destroying them (being too soft) and are based on nothing and so will ultimately in the long term not be able to sustain itself.

5. Muslim immigrants should be deported from Scandinavia so as to maintain the unique Scandinavian culture.

6. Swedes are thus completely brainwashed in extremist Leftism: I was never given grades for schoolwork as it was deemed immoral to award grades to all pupils in case some did not do so well! Reduction to mediocrity.

7. The vikings must return!!!!

8. Wake up Sweden, smell the coffee, worship THOR and ODIN rather than Trotsky and Marx you bloody wimps! Your viking forefathers would be ashamed of you.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

23. Comment #268976 by FatherNature on October 22, 2008 at 1:26 pm

Here's a good article co-authored by Phil Zuckerman called "Why the Gods Are Not Winning".

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html

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24. Comment #268981 by RHR on October 22, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Blackjack:
Not only are you saving yourself the trouble of tiptoeing around the topic of religion, but you're really giving them a compliment by presupposing that they're rational grown-ups who don't belive in fairy-tales.

For me though, it's really just a matter of experience. Especially with young people, the chance of someone in the room actually being religious is small enough to justify not taking any special considerations.

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25. Comment #268982 by polestar on October 22, 2008 at 1:30 pm

All this comment about religion or lack of it may be rather irrelevant to social behaviour, consensus and cohesion: economics is much more important and, particularly, property rights and the rule of law (hence stability), both very strong for centuries in these countries.

As nalfeshnee points out, the Russian Federation (like its Soviet parent) has a secular constitution whereas two of the Scandinavian countries are explicitly Christian - but we all know where we would be safest.

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26. Comment #268988 by Janus on October 22, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Henri,

I can't figure out which parts of your post are jokes are which parts are not. Please help.

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27. Comment #268993 by Henri Bergson on October 22, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Janus,

All is true, but 7 & 8 are speculative!

But I would love to see Marx' face smashed inwards by Thor's hammer, were it possible.

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28. Comment #268994 by polestar on October 22, 2008 at 1:41 pm

As is so often the case, this book and its issues are only interesting or surprising to Americans. Few Western European countries (but some Eastern) care much: even Spain, the real home of Roman Catholicism, has church attendance around 3 per cent, about the same as France or England.

The Muslim issue is a separate one but is the one that matters: it is a genuine, current, active and internal threat that has already undermined freedom of speech, the rule of law and national security in the UK. I very much liked jeggers's line (16. Comment #268934) about losing your spine to save your neck.

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29. Comment #268997 by Peacebeuponme on October 22, 2008 at 1:45 pm

Henri

Utilitarianism, socialism, contractarianism is all bullshit.

So how should we go about things?

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30. Comment #268998 by jeggers on October 22, 2008 at 1:47 pm

Comment #268994 by polestar

believe me i'm not the first to use that phrase. some daniel harris fella used it in a well received sermon.

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31. Comment #269001 by Henri Bergson on October 22, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Peace,

By following the hard truth.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

32. Comment #269002 by bluebird on October 22, 2008 at 1:50 pm

The Vikings must return!

Nestled in the rolling cornfields of SW Iowa:
http://vikingmeet.skjaldborgedu-tainment.com/

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33. Comment #269005 by rod-the-farmer on October 22, 2008 at 1:53 pm

I found the following, after tracking down a comparison between Canada and the U.S., in a Macleans magazine article of 7 July/2008 The article referenced a Gallup poll.

(Macleans is the Canadian magazine which was sued by some muslim student lawyers for printing an article they said opened up muslims to hatred. They wanted equal space for a rebuttal. Macleans reportedly said they would rather close the magazine than comply. Various Human Rights Commissions eventually agreed, and the case died.)

Worlds Apart: Religion in Canada, Britain and U.S.

which had the following. The wording is a bit difficult, but I think they mean by the first number that this is how many people answered the question, and the second number is the response OF that group to that question.

When asked about the importance of religion in their own lives, 83% of Americans said it is either "very important" (60%) or "fairly important" (23%).

Those numbers take a dive north of the border: 62% of Canadians said religion is very important (28%) or fairly important (34%) to them.

In Great Britain, however, less than a majority -- 47% -- said that religion is important in their lives. Only 17% of Britons consider it very important, and 30% feel it is fairly important.

I apologise on Gallups behalf for the confusing wording, but I copied it as-is.

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34. Comment #269008 by a non e-moose on October 22, 2008 at 1:53 pm

In sweden we also have socialism. That's another disilusion Americans need to be dissabused of, that a decent welfare system is inherently anti-democratic, and inevitably results in nuclear holocausts and siberian labour camps.

Henri: I agree there should grades in swedish schools. As for the rest, you seem like you are either mad or juvenile.

Talk of deporting or rejecting immigrants purely on basis of belief and maintaining swedish culture, along with judgements of what ancient ancestors would have thought reeks of thinly veiled xenophobia and supremism.

Other Comments by a non e-moose

35. Comment #269009 by Peacebeuponme on October 22, 2008 at 1:53 pm

Henri

Care to enlighten me?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

36. Comment #269010 by Peacebeuponme on October 22, 2008 at 1:54 pm

jeggers

some daniel harris fella used it in a well received sermon.

Daniel Harris, or Sam Harris?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

37. Comment #269012 by Henri Bergson on October 22, 2008 at 1:57 pm

Peace,

All those systems are conditioned upon the Christian notion of equality. Something which, without God, cannot be upheld as true.

Anonymous,

the welfare state is destroying the nation,no doubt. It has a limited shelf life as it is inevitably exploited. Sweden has no future as Sweden. R.I.P.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

38. Comment #269016 by jeggers on October 22, 2008 at 2:01 pm

Comment #269010 by Peacebeuponme

opps had a Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris 'western supermare'. Sam of course.
I wonder about Henri view of the welfare state. I know the 'cradle to grave' scandanavian benefits system is clearly generous. Is it population density that will bring it to its knees? Henri, what gives it a limited shelf life?

Other Comments by jeggers

39. Comment #269018 by Peacebeuponme on October 22, 2008 at 2:05 pm

Henri

You have always been an evasive fellow. I know you have problems with pretty much every form of moral outlook. I just wondered if you had any concrete ideas about what framework would allow us best to live together as a society.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

40. Comment #269022 by Henri Bergson on October 22, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Jeggers,

In a nation full of Lutheran-influenced citizens with its work ethic, unemployment is a vice and something to be avoided as an embarrassment. In his scenario, the welfae stae works fine.

However, add an alien culture (i.e. muslims) who have no such protestant work ethic, and the welfare state is immediately exploited and so workers pay an overinflated tax for the unemployed happy to live on state handouts without shame.

And that's not to mention the disgraceful cultural legacy the muslims bring of irrationality, which the neo-Marxists (read: social democrats) endorse as they're so scared of appearing to discriminate because of their Frankfurt School indoctrination.

At least the Swedes recently voted in a conservative government after 80 years 9minus a 10-year gap). But a Swedish 'conservative' is like English sandal-wearing lefty hippies.

Interestingly, the far right in Europe now is becoming more rational than the far Left. I am neither, by the way.

But the Left has become an irrational faith.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

41. Comment #269029 by Stella on October 22, 2008 at 2:17 pm

I'm American, and an atheist, and I am not at all "astonished to discover how unencumbered by religion most Danes and Swedes currently are" - jealous, perhaps, but not astonished. Then again, I lived in the UK for four years.

Other Comments by Stella

42. Comment #269034 by mdowe on October 22, 2008 at 2:22 pm

RE: 33. Comment #269005 by rod-the-farmer

As to religion in Canada versus the USA, I don't think the statistics tell the whole story. Living in Canada, I've never felt persecuted as an atheist. As far as I've been able to tell, the vast majority of Canadians (religious or otherwise) just don't consider my beliefs or lack of them to be their business -- in short, they just don't care. Furthermore, Canadians in general (and to their credit) seem to take a dim view of religion in politics. I haven't lived in the USA, but from what I'm seeing and hearing, it is a different world. However, I don't live in the Canadian 'bible belt' where I expect the culture is more like the USA.

Other Comments by mdowe

43. Comment #269035 by Mango on October 22, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Henri,

Having liberalism but not blindly "celebrating multiculturalism" is what a lot of people are trying to accomplish (e.g. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Christopher Hitchens). The reactions from both the right and left in Britain against implementing Sharia law is a good example of such a push-back against taking multi-culturalism too far.

Other Comments by Mango

44. Comment #269038 by al-rawandi on October 22, 2008 at 2:27 pm

Henri,

Most Americans I know would be completely ashamed to accept a welfare check. I don't think I could bring myself to stand in an unemployment line or accept a welfare check. Was it Tocqueville who said he traveled the American landscape and couldn't find one person seeking charity'

It is shameful in the US to not work. Not so shameful in Europe, must be the aristocratic blood.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

45. Comment #269039 by polestar on October 22, 2008 at 2:30 pm

And it's a pity that Sam Harris's review of the book fails to distinguish between alternate and alternative: allowing English to deteriorate is also a form of obscurantism and a great help to other forms of obscurantism.

Other Comments by polestar

46. Comment #269041 by Goldy on October 22, 2008 at 2:34 pm

However, add an alien culture (i.e. muslims) who have no such protestant work ethic...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4788712.stm

Methinks you paint with too broad a brush, Henri.

As for the unemployed in the UK, I must admit I met a few. Meter reading (I wasn't going to claim dole when there was work available) toook me to parts of Reading where unemployment was in its 2nd or 3rd generation. It has become institutionalised, I guess, among certain people. I don't think it is any worse than in the US though. Depends what neighbourhood you go to...I dare say parts of Detroit would resemble Reading's Whitley area :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

47. Comment #269043 by jeggers on October 22, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Comment #269022 by Henri Bergson

Henri, I concur. I think my expectations of Muslim immigration into Scandanavia are probably along the same lines. I definitely agree about the vile cultural legacy. The sooner the British government pushes for homogenisation instead of celebrating multiculturalism the better. Probably too late for the UK.

Other Comments by jeggers

48. Comment #269045 by Wosret on October 22, 2008 at 2:39 pm

31. Comment #269001 by Henri Bergson

By following the hard truth.

I gots the "hard truth" in my pants. What, what.

Other Comments by Wosret

49. Comment #269046 by Bonzai on October 22, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Henri is not just talking about Muslim immigration, he is categorically rejecting morality. If there is no morality of any kind, what exactly is wrong with Islam, what is wrong with forced marriage or genital mutilation?

Other Comments by Bonzai

50. Comment #269049 by Goldy on October 22, 2008 at 2:43 pm