1. Comment #274115 by Ex~ on October 29, 2008 at 4:10 pm

Sick and perverse. God save us all.

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2. Comment #274118 by GordonYKWong on October 29, 2008 at 4:13 pm

A group of men performed the execution in one of the city's main squares in front of thousands of people, AFP news agency said.

I hope those fucksticks are proud of themselves, the pack of bullying depraved medieval apes.

Words fail me...

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

3. Comment #274122 by Brian English on October 29, 2008 at 4:16 pm

Now now, we all know it's the culture, not religion that is the root of such behavior. Relgion, especially Islam is peaceful and loving, really. I shit you not!

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4. Comment #274123 by Tetsujin on October 29, 2008 at 4:17 pm

¨...said Sheikh Hayakallah¨


Contrary to my father´s belief. There are no certain ¨conditions¨ that need to be met before some sheikh declares a woman needs to be stoned. An accusation is enough. Of course my interpretation isn´t as well informed as the mullahs/maullanas/sheikhs

Another reminder why I left.

Other Comments by Tetsujin

5. Comment #274124 by Neuro on October 29, 2008 at 4:18 pm

Disgusting.

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6. Comment #274125 by Goldy on October 29, 2008 at 4:18 pm

As reported by the NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/world/africa/29briefs-RAPEVICTIMEX_BRF.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin
She was a rape victim.

Other Comments by Goldy

7. Comment #274128 by Brian English on October 29, 2008 at 4:20 pm

Goldy, in that case, she probably wanted to die because she'd already been traumatized and living in a society that treats rape victims as sluts might not have been appetizing.

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8. Comment #274129 by Goldy on October 29, 2008 at 4:22 pm

Always a silver lining, Brian. Though there was a lot more printed in the BBC a couple of days ago. In trying to keep order (the woman's relatives were, shall we say, restive) a child was shot and killed.

Other Comments by Goldy

9. Comment #274130 by Brian English on October 29, 2008 at 4:23 pm

Well, as long as order was maintained.

Other Comments by Brian English

10. Comment #274131 by Goldy on October 29, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Sorry, it was teh Telegraph that had the larger story, not the BBC
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/somalia/3274129/Islamists-stone-adulterous-Somali-woman-to-death.html

Other Comments by Goldy

11. Comment #274133 by Goldy on October 29, 2008 at 4:25 pm

"She was asked several times to review her confession but she stressed that she wanted Sharia law and the deserved punishment to apply," said Sheikh Hayakallah.

"We were told she submitted herself to be punished, yet we could see her screaming as she was forcefully bound, legs and hands. A relative of hers ran towards her, but the Islamists opened fire and killed a child."

Kicking and screaming, eh? That sounds like the actions of someone who was resigned to her fate...

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12. Comment #274139 by Brian English on October 29, 2008 at 4:28 pm

Kicking and screaming, eh? That sounds like the actions of someone who was resigned to her fate...

Well, she was an adulteress, that would mean that she'd go to hell and have her hide burnt off and replaced on a regular basis. Perhaps, if she believed that, she might be a tad frightened. Or more likely she was shit scared of dying.

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13. Comment #274142 by a non e-moose on October 29, 2008 at 4:30 pm

at least they're consistent with their own theology, unlike moderate believers, gotta give them that...

Edit. i realize that's a horribly cynical comment. Do not interpret it as that I m saying that theology is in any way an excuse for murder.

Other Comments by a non e-moose

14. Comment #274144 by LeeC on October 29, 2008 at 4:32 pm

Has any reports from Muslims been reported on this in the western press.

Are they saying that it is sick - I want to know.

If they are silent, then it is as if they threw the stones themselves.

Lee

Other Comments by LeeC

15. Comment #274151 by root2squared on October 29, 2008 at 4:47 pm

If I had been a religious person *shudder*, this would have been enough to convince me that God does not exist.

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16. Comment #274156 by Bonzai on October 29, 2008 at 4:53 pm

Sick fucks. I wish someone have dropped a fucking bomb on the crowd gathered to throw the stones.

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17. Comment #274159 by tieInterceptor on October 29, 2008 at 4:55 pm

Has any reports from Muslims been reported on this in the western press.

Are they saying that it is sick - I want to know.

If they are silent, then it is as if they threw the stones themselves.

Lee

nah, they are too busy checking all the teddy bear name tags.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

18. Comment #274171 by PrimeNumbers on October 29, 2008 at 5:09 pm

Yet another example of the horrible Islam disease. Not content in peaching hell for the afterlife, they try to create hell on earth.

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19. Comment #274180 by MaxWeiss on October 29, 2008 at 5:35 pm

As a general rule, I am opposed to the government protecting citizens from themselves, but this is a clear case where it's just stupid to let her accept her punishment. As citizens of the world and as decent people, we SHOULD actively be trying to interfere with and dismantle the fundamentalist Islamic culture. This is wrong, plain and simple.

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20. Comment #274192 by LeeC on October 29, 2008 at 5:58 pm

17. Comment #274159 by tieInterceptor
nah, they are too busy checking all the teddy bear name tags.

Sad but true.

It then makes them part of the crime.

That is what really pissed me off after the London bombings - they all were busy making excuses for their religion, rather than just saying that these 'people' are sick fucks and have no place in their religion. How hard should it have been to say that'

It took days before I heard any Muslim say something against the attackers.

It's the same here.

If they do not come out and say something against this, then their silence will be showing their true beliefs - they accept it, they approve of it.

To be clear, remember I am asking only about Western countries - where we have (for the moment) freedom of speech.

Lee

Other Comments by LeeC

21. Comment #274194 by Border Collie on October 29, 2008 at 5:59 pm

Like I've said before ... It takes a group (nonetheless) of real manly men to stone one woman to death. And, for their safety's sake, they buried her up to her neck first. She probably would have been terribly dangerous otherwise. Damn, I certainly hope these guys are around if I ever get attacked by a twenty three year old woman. And, I hope, that if I ever grow up, I can be just like these guys. You guys are MY heroes and I hope you get to be on Wheaties boxes someday. I'm getting light-headed just thinking about the depth of the Islamist heroism going on here.

Other Comments by Border Collie

22. Comment #274202 by j.mills on October 29, 2008 at 6:08 pm

I thoroughly join in the condemnation of this barbarity, obviously.

But as to Western Muslims speaking out, the ordinary Muslim has no greater a voice than any other citizen. The media look to those famous 'community leaders' we hear so much about. We can't on the one hand complain that those 'leaders' aren't representative, and on the other assume that their apologetics are typical of the entire Muslim population. It's entirely possible that they are typical - I'm just saying you can't judge the opinions of millions of people with no special media access on the basis of the opinions of the self-appointed media-savvy handful who do get themselves heard.

Even so, I struggle to see how anyone, professional apologist or not, could offer any excuse for this vicious execution.

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23. Comment #274227 by OutragedofDaylesford on October 29, 2008 at 7:03 pm

When Sharia law is introduced in Britain, will it be possible to rent major stadiums such as Wembley, or Lords for events like this ? Or will Muslims again be treated as second class citizens and relegated to inferior venues such as Wimbledon ?

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24. Comment #274229 by Caudimordax on October 29, 2008 at 7:08 pm

To think that the "people" who carried out the stoning went home thinking they had done god's will ... really makes my blood boil.

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25. Comment #274234 by Goldy on October 29, 2008 at 7:17 pm

From the Telegraph

During the stoning furious relatives surged forward to try to save the woman, prompting guards to open fire, killing a child.

If there is a way to help these people...
Hard thing - Somalia is a fucked country. It was fucked by the Italians, the British and others, wracked by war, clan mentality and warlordism, invaded by Ethiopia and now this by hardline Islamists who are probably sponsored by our mates the Saudis.
In the news, I hear there were suicide bombings in Somaliland and Puntland is under a bit of pressure to try and stem the piracy that makes it's couastline the most heavily pirated in the world.
DP, if you ever get to read these threads, this is what a lack of government does to a country. This is what one is reduced to without taxes being paid.

One can read a bit about the region here
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/travel/05journeys.html'scp=2&sq=eritrea&st=cse
OK, Eritrea is not quite Somalia, but the Eritreans are accused by the US of sponsoring the IC as they are also wary of the Ethiopians.

A huge clusterfuck of a land.

Other Comments by Goldy

26. Comment #274239 by Dispiracist on October 29, 2008 at 7:22 pm

Fortunately for Western women you can't bury them up to the neck in Astroturf. And the clay courts at Wimbledon are too hard to dig. So the specified Sharia punishments cannot be performed in the venues available places like London.

But there is perverse logic to these stories.
It’s easy to understand how a rape victim can be regarded as an adulterer. It’s nothing unique to Islam. All societies tend to regard rape victims as sluts. The penalties for being accused as a female adulterer are severe everywhere, regardless of legal logic, evidence, or culture. There must be some evolutionary psychology explanation – I have no idea what it is but the situation is such an obvious strategy that it is continually reinvented by rapists.

Rape victims often endure further humiliation and bullying via malicious smear campaigns initiated by the rapist and their friends and family. This was a major problem connected with the Islamic rape squads operating in Sydney for many years. The logic is that rapists tend to be opportunist criminals living in close proximity to their victims. Malicious rumours serve multiple purposes: it undermines the credibility of the victim in possible court proceedings, (this is the kind of sophisticated advice available by paying for very expensive and successful defence attorneys who’ve obtained the highest legal credentials from the very best legal schools), but most importantly it drives out the victim, who is forced to move away to avoid daily abuse from neighbours and former acquaintances – normally the abuse and sneering is dished out by other women who pickup on the wild rumours.

Driving out the victim via a smear campaign minimises the likelihood of the victim proceeding with a police complaint or inevitably coming into contact with, and recognising, her attacker.
Typical rapists, like most opportunistic criminals, don’t have very much in the way of initiative or resources, and tend to be stuck at home living with their mums. They tend to lack the capability of moving away to avoid recognition by the victim who lives in the vicinity. So their next best option is to exile the victim. It must be a very successful strategy, because most rape charges do not proceed to trial after it becomes clear that the defence strategy can’t argue the physical evidence. This implies they must claim consent and aggressively undermine the victim as a vexatious complainant. (The victim is usually acutely aware by this stage that people are saying things about her and her status and credibility in her community has collapsed.)

Even if the victim initially resists ostracism and instead toughs out the abuse and pursues a criminal complaint the victim will still have to leave town eventually, because the rumour damage cannot be undone. The reason is that those who assist in perpetrating malicious rumours initiated by the rapists fall prey to the same psychological mechanisms that entrench religious beliefs. They can therefore no longer regard the victim as entirely innocent, even if the rapist is convicted.

You can see how misery and damage spreads throughout a community by a single rape. Not only are enemies created between those directly involved, but the victim also becomes the enemy of many other women in the community. And this is normal even for Western communities. It must be very much worse in a culture where the status of females is barely equivalent to livestock.

In a sense the Somali rape victim is really being executed because she is an enemy, not only because she was raped or is an adulterer. There is no discrimination under Islam – all enemies are executed or enslaved. She was already enslaved, which leaves only 1 remaining option.

In Western cultures rape victims are no longer executed, but they are still punished in various ways, including a lifetime of anxiety – not necessarily in fear of potential rapists, but also in fear of how readily and eagerly other women may turn on her as a target of hatred and contempt. It’s like witch trials. It’s only a small step for them to execute themselves.

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27. Comment #274240 by Caudimordax on October 29, 2008 at 7:24 pm

DP, if you ever get to read these threads, this is what a lack of government does to a country. This is what one is reduced to without taxes being paid.

Not likely - DP is a monomaniac (or, as widely suspected, a computer program)

But I completely agree with you.

Other Comments by Caudimordax

28. Comment #274244 by Goldy on October 29, 2008 at 7:30 pm

http://stop-stoning.org/node/9
Interesting

The Islamic Penal Code of Iran is very specific regarding the details of how stoning should be executed. Article 102 states that men shall be buried up to their waists and women up to their breasts for the execution. Article 104 states, referring to the penalty for adultery, that the stones used should “not be large enough to kill the person by one or two strikes; nor should they be so small that they could not be defined as stones (pebbles.)”. In some cases, if a victim can escape from the ditch during the stoning, they will be freed. However, because women are buried up to their breasts and men only at their waists, women will have a smaller chance of escaping than men.

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29. Comment #274252 by Opisthokont on October 29, 2008 at 7:53 pm

Anent #274202, #274192, and other remarks about moderate Muslims being invisible: this need not be the case. The crazies who get away with representing the people can do so only because the people allow them. If there was a massive protest by Muslims against such events, the press would notice, and the perception of Islam as an inherently brutal and unenlightened throwback would be successfully challenged. It should not be hard to find a hundred or so progressively-minded Muslims in London to picket outside the office of their so-called community leaders every time they say something regressive or stupid. Unless, of course, such people do not exist: and silence on their part is as good as nonexistence.

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30. Comment #274253 by LeeC on October 29, 2008 at 7:58 pm

22. Comment #274202 by j.mills
But as to Western Muslims speaking out, the ordinary Muslim has no greater a voice than any other citizen.

Can they write to newspapers - comment on websites and news stories - I'm just asking if anyone has seen their outcry. I would be interested to know that’s all.

Maybe the outlet to express their views isn’t there – I hope this isn’t the case, but I would like to know one way or the other.

As for the wider media - What about these Muslims who DO make it onto television and radio news, what about their voice - if they say nothing against this type of act, they are to me in support of it.

If these people do not represent the community - then the community should say something about it – write to the TV channels to ensure they are not misrepresented. Who knows, but I would like to know.

My point is merely that I do not hear the condemnation of such acts from the Muslim community – this could be my fault for not reading or listening to the correct sources.

Hence I am trying to wake up to their voices.

If I look and find – great, I hope it can be built on.

If I look and find nothing... well, again, you tell me.

I truly hope that in the Western world Muslims find this act sickening – I’ve just not heard or read it (Ex-Muslims yes, but not Muslims) This is not to say it doesn’t exist – I am asking for sources to I can learn.

I am not judging millions of people – just asking questions I hope.

This forum is a wealth of knowledge, so I am trying to use it :-)

Thanks

Lee

Other Comments by LeeC

31. Comment #274259 by Goldy on October 29, 2008 at 8:11 pm

One Muslim view - from a Turkish news source http://english.sabah.com.tr/BCCB9265A2F341B9944B07F68A1F5CFE.html

Relatives of the woman executed in Kismayu, whom they named as Asha Ibrahim Dhuhulow, said she was unfairly treated.

"The stoning was totally irreligious and illogical," said her sister, who asked not to be named. "Islam does not execute a woman for adultery unless four witnesses and the man with whom she committed sex are brought forward publicly." Islamist leaders at the execution said the woman had breached Islamic law. They promised to punish the guard who had shot the child in the melee around the execution.

Seeing as it is her sister, maybe not the most pertinent view...
I'll scout around for more.

Other Comments by Goldy

32. Comment #274260 by LeeC on October 29, 2008 at 8:12 pm

28. Comment #274244 by Goldy
http://stop-stoning.org/node/9
Interesting

Thanks... this is what I am looking for... and more of it.

Lee

Other Comments by LeeC

33. Comment #274263 by Goldy on October 29, 2008 at 8:19 pm

NYT blog
http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/a-stoning-in-somalia/

And this
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/browse_thread/thread/df3b0b559fd632d8

thank you Shari, I'm glad you are back to number 1, I hope he will
make you happy because you deserve to be happy..

Western Woman dress like whores................


Women must take responsibility for their dress standards.


If she dress like sluts, get treated like sluts. Its only natural.


Western women wear pants so tight that reveal all their curves.


Western women wear pantyhose, making them less accessible, but at the
same time allowing their dresses to be shorter, the slits higher.


Western women cloths designed to tease those who see them, to enhance
their beauty even more, to lift their breasts, to allow their nipples
to be seen through them, to ride high on their hips, to allow their
pubic hair to poke through the tiny holes in the lacey fronts.


Western women with pants so low they have shave their pubic area,
every thing has to be sexy or it rejected as dowdy.

Not sure how Western women dressing had an impact in this case.

The story is in a lot of Muslim papers - I can only read the English editions so have no idea what is in the blogosphere about it...

Other Comments by Goldy

34. Comment #274273 by Bonzai on October 29, 2008 at 8:34 pm

About Western Muslims speaking out. A difficulty is exactly who are the "Western Muslims" we want to hear from? Mohammad the super market cashier, Amed the engineer, Abu the accountant, or this hipster?http://www.torontolife.com/features/radio-active/

The problem is, when immigrants of Muslim background is completely integrated, they no longer define themselves based on religion and cease to be visible. If they still identify themselves as Muslim first, like the bearded dudes and the veiled women, then they are probably not that moderate in the first place.

Other Comments by Bonzai

35. Comment #274276 by Goldy on October 29, 2008 at 8:38 pm

You may want to trawl through here to see if there are any Muslim voices
http://blogsbyiranians.com/

Other Comments by Goldy

36. Comment #274295 by Alternative Carpark on October 29, 2008 at 10:39 pm

A couple of years ago, I watched an online video of the stoning of two people in Iran (no, it was not on Youtube, nor one of those 'extreme sites'). The video had apparently been smuggled out of the country - which is understandable, I suppose, as Iran denies such incidents have occurred since the 2002 moratorium and is eager to conceal the truth from the likes of meddling organizations such as Amnesty International.

Anyway, the condemned pair were first flogged (I don't know how many lashes, as I fast forwarded through their suffering, but it went on for a few minutes).

They were then dragged away to an open area where two holes where waiting for them. But they didn't just drop them in. No, they were first wrapped, from head to toe, in a white bandage - picture a mummy in a strait-jacket. Immobilized, they were then popped into their holes and buried up to their midriffs.

Incidentally, women are buried up to their necks lest, Allah forbid, their breasts become exposed during the course of their murder.

A large truck appeared and backed slowly into the area before emptying its stony cargo in a convenient pile.

Now, Iran's Penal Code dictates that the stones should be large enough to cause pain, but not so large as to kill the victim immediately.

The 'executioners', who looked like ordinary guys from the village with nothing better to do on a Friday afternoon, carefully selected the right stones for the opening volley....

What followed was as disturbing as you can imagine. I decided to watch with the sound off.

However, what was most sickening was not seeing the two torsos, squirming in pain, nor was it watching their white shrouds gradually redden with each hit. No, it was the fact that I was witnessing a bunch of guys enthusiastically tormenting and slowly murdering fellow human beings, in front of a fairly large crowd, in the 21st century and with the law on their side.

The festivities ended once the two bodies lay limp and lifeless.

Other Comments by Alternative Carpark

37. Comment #274298 by moderndaythomas on October 29, 2008 at 10:58 pm

A group of men performed the execution in one of the city's main squares in front of thousands of people

This poor woman was stoned to death by no more than a pack of boymen bent on their own impotency with their left hands.

These men need to spend more of their time working out how to keep a woman happy in bed and less of their time fostering a paranoia over whether or not she's got eyes for the neighbor.
It all comes down to useless peckers, kids.

It's clear to me that you don't have to be any good at cunnilingus on a pretty girl, all you have to do is stone em to death for bitching about it.

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38. Comment #274299 by passutoba on October 29, 2008 at 11:03 pm

I wonder how many sick fantasies are played out in the minds of those hajj pilgrims stoning that pillar in mecca.......i find the noise of all those 1000's of stones hitting the pillar at once very creepy and with the testimonies above, it now has an even grimmer resonanace.

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39. Comment #274310 by mmurray on October 29, 2008 at 11:58 pm

There must be some evolutionary psychology explanation –

Jarrod Diamond has some suggestions in one of his books which revolve around what you would expect if an animal evolved so that the offspring needed looking after by both parents for a significant amount of time like 10-15 year. His idea I think was that you would expect males to evolve strategies to make sure that the child they were raising was theirs. In the animal kingdom there are strategies like plugging up the vagina with some male secretion. Some homo sapiens instead have decided to sew it up. It would be simpler and easier nowdays to use contraception and dna paternity testing but once something is embedded in a culture it's hard to get rid of.

These men need to spend more of their time working out how to keep a woman happy in bed and less of their time fostering a paranoia over whether or not she's got eyes for the neighbor.

Actually is that part of the culture ? I have no idea. I could well imagine that a wife who looked even remotely happy in a sexual encounter could be accused of being a whore. Certainly the genital mutilation would suggest that female sexual enjoyment was not high on the agenda.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

40. Comment #274311 by Bonzai on October 30, 2008 at 12:08 am

mmurray

His idea I think was that you would expect males to evolve strategies to make sure that the child they were raising was theirs. In the animal kingdom there are strategies like plugging up the vagina with some male secretion. Some homo sapiens instead have decided to sew it up. It would be simpler and easier nowdays to use contraception and dna paternity testing but once something is embedded in a culture it's hard to get rid of.

I like Jarad Diamond's books. But how does this theory explain adoption?

What about matriarchy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoTrARDa8BU&feature=related

Other Comments by Bonzai

41. Comment #274312 by Laurie Fraser on October 30, 2008 at 12:16 am

A story like this actually brings meaning to my avatar.

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

42. Comment #274322 by agn on October 30, 2008 at 1:01 am

Remember that within Muslim ideology, public ACCEPTANCE of a hudd punishment (i.e those punishments regarded as of Quranic origin), cleanses the soul of the "guilty" person, sothat they reach paradise,ratherthan hell.
Thus, that woman might have hoped that by accepting the punishment,her soul would be saved..

Other Comments by agn

43. Comment #274325 by DamnDirtyApe on October 30, 2008 at 1:29 am

Somalia is a bandit kingdom. A real land of pirates.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7637257.stm

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44. Comment #274328 by Pertwee's Bouffant on October 30, 2008 at 1:40 am

"She was asked several times to review her confession but she stressed that she wanted Sharia law and the deserved punishment to apply," said Sheikh Hayakallah.

If this is true, then that's the saddest part of the whole appalling affair. I wonder if she was so brainwashed that she actually believed her execution was the right thing to happen.

Other Comments by Pertwee's Bouffant

45. Comment #274329 by Brian English on October 30, 2008 at 1:44 am

If this is true, then that's the saddest part of the whole appalling affair. I wonder if she was so brainwashed that she actually believed her execution was the right thing to happen

Indoctrination, Stockholm syndrome, shame because the woman is at fault no matter what, trauma. I can imagine wanting it to end. Though there are reports that she wasn't happy when it came time for the stoning.

Other Comments by Brian English

46. Comment #274348 by mmurray on October 30, 2008 at 2:08 am

I like Jarad Diamond's books. But how does this theory explain adoption?

What about matriarchy?

Well I guess it is not the only factor. In the case of adoption the competing desire to have children or to care for or to look after children must dominate. Or it is a displacement of the tendency to help look after near relatives children which would have some direct evolutionary benefit.

Matriarchy ? Not sure really. I guess some other factors dominate.

It isn't clear why this extereme misogynist behaviour would dominate in some cultures and not others. I think (at least some of) the greek societies also heavily controlled women keeping them in a separate part of the house.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

47. Comment #274349 by JernJane on October 30, 2008 at 2:09 am

Truly appalling.

Other Comments by JernJane

48. Comment #274362 by dochmbi on October 30, 2008 at 2:24 am

@26:
quote Dispiracist: "
But there is perverse logic to these stories.
It’s easy to understand how a rape victim can be regarded as an adulterer. It’s nothing unique to Islam. All societies tend to regard rape victims as sluts. The penalties for being accused as a female adulterer are severe everywhere, regardless of legal logic, evidence, or culture. There must be some evolutionary psychology explanation – I have no idea what it is but the situation is such an obvious strategy that it is continually reinvented by rapists. "

It has to do with sexual economics. A womans sexual reputation is a non-renewable resource.
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/baumeistervohs2004.pdf

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49. Comment #274367 by Vaal on October 30, 2008 at 2:38 am

Fucking Barbarians!

EDIT: If Muslims claim Jesus as a prophet then why don't they take any notice of when he said "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Or has God changed his mind once again?

Other Comments by Vaal

50. Comment #274393 by Shuggy on October 30, 2008 at 3:10 am

The penalties for being accused as a female adulterer are severe everywhere, regardless of legal logic, evidence, or culture. There must be some evolutionary psychology explanation – I have no idea what it is but the situation is such an obvious strategy that it is continually reinvented by rapists.

Does it have to do with proof of paternity? If women are allowed to sleep around, the children they bear and I support might not be mine, and that would be a loss to my DNA. Whereas if I can rape women and impregnate them and get away with it, I multiply my DNA with very little effort. Those two are pretty inconsistent, but when was this consistent?

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