1. Comment #275206 by Jesse. on October 31, 2008 at 12:29 am

If you allow private faith schools, financed by the saudi government for fuck sake; what else would you expect?

Other Comments by Jesse.

2. Comment #275208 by Dr Doctor on October 31, 2008 at 12:36 am

Well, I don't know about you but I'm a baby eating atheist infidel who is personally responsible for the continuing partition of Israel. I'm looking forward to burning in hellfire.

Britain keeps opening its legs to Saudi money.

Islam's stance on other religions is no different than any other religion. Other religions are just better at hiding it.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

3. Comment #275209 by Johan on October 31, 2008 at 12:39 am

This woman is a slippery snake. The ubiquitous excuse of “being out of context” drives me absolutely bananas. The moderator showed some real back bone, however!

Other Comments by Johan

4. Comment #275210 by dmcdonald on October 31, 2008 at 12:41 am

This is great. In a round about way Dr Akyusuf is having to defend intolerant nonsense in the koran.

However, the real racism is that Islam was singled out. Lets have a couple of news nights asking why christan and jewish faith schools teaching *exactly* the same thing.

Other Comments by dmcdonald

5. Comment #275211 by Dr Doctor on October 31, 2008 at 12:45 am

Johan, Of course she is. Get a religious bigot on TV and they are just going to lie, then justify it to themselves that you are an outsider so it is acceptable to.

Jeremy Paxman is a legend (the moderator), he never lets anyone get away with anything.

The real problem is faith schools. Remove the right to have faith schools, or faith funded schools and you deal with the whole lot at a stroke - no accusations of bias. The problem Britain has is that it has an institutionalised religion which does not itself want to lose its religious privileges and indeed, seeks to gain influence by adopting the tactics of British political Islamists.

It can be no coincidence these days that telling lies and being "of the faith" go hand in hand.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

6. Comment #275221 by GarrickW on October 31, 2008 at 1:25 am

That woman was absurd; it annoys me no end when people don't answer questions, but instead slither about like that. Surely even people with below-average education can tell that this means they have no decent answer to the question and have things to hide. I like when the host said that the viewers would make up their mind about what she's said; she said nothing of substance in itself, but her way of answering spoke volumes. Shame that this sort of thing is going on.

Other Comments by GarrickW

7. Comment #275222 by halbard101 on October 31, 2008 at 1:30 am

This is going to end up as being Tony Blair's biggest mistake of his legacy. State funded terrosist recruitment camps.

Obviously this is an exageration but once these children reach teenage years and have been indoctrinated to jihad i'm sure we (the UK) are going to have a lot of problems with sleeper terrorists.

Actually we already have UK born doctors trying to blow people up, within 5-10 years times these faith schools might be one of the biggest problems facing the UK.

Other Comments by halbard101

8. Comment #275223 by Communist on October 31, 2008 at 1:34 am

dmcdonald wrote:

This is great. In a round about way Dr Akyusuf is having to defend intolerant nonsense in the koran.

However, the real racism is that Islam was singled out. Lets have a couple of news nights asking why christan and jewish faith schools teaching *exactly* the same thing.

I disagree. In this discussion, one specific issue with one specific religion was brought up. There is nothing racist about that. Suppose that the premise was that islam was compared to other religions. Suppose for instance that Paxman had said that islamists in Europe are showing the same attitude that jewish settlers show in occupied Palestinian territories. Then the islamists would whine even louder about 'racism' and 'generalisations'. You can't win against these people. They will resort to special pleading no matter what the setting is.

Other Comments by Communist

9. Comment #275224 by DamnDirtyApe on October 31, 2008 at 1:34 am

Shut that place down.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

10. Comment #275225 by mmurray on October 31, 2008 at 1:41 am

However, the real racism is that Islam was singled out. Lets have a couple of news nights asking why christan and jewish faith schools teaching *exactly* the same thing.

That is not racism. Islam is clearly the most dangerous of the Abrahamic religions at this point in time. I think all faith schools should be closed down but I don't believe the christian ones are as likely to produce terrorists or students who think that people who have been raped should be stoned to death.

Michael

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11. Comment #275228 by Styrer- on October 31, 2008 at 1:50 am

This seems to be quite an old story (from Feb 08) which has moved on considerably since. This is not at all clear from the manner in which it has been presented here.

See http://www.teachers.tv/video/22388

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

12. Comment #275229 by capsomere on October 31, 2008 at 1:51 am

I don't know how any Western nation/government/organization can witness an exchange like this where absolutely no effort is made to offer anything even remotely resembling a concession and still be willing to completely capitulate to the most outrageous demands of these Muslim hatemongers.

This reminds me of an episode of Dexter (Season 2, Ep 3: An Inconvenient Lie) where he murders this used car salesman. While he's listening to this shyster spin an effortless web of lies he interrupts by saying, "it's like watching someone skiing moguls, you just jump from one lie to the next."

From an earlier scene in the same episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDO4XjEXm2I

I think we if we truly gave paid as little concern for their "feelings" as they do ours, we might actual get somewhere with these people. If not, at least we can hang onto to whatever remnants of our societies these knaves haven't yet ravaged.

Other Comments by capsomere

13. Comment #275231 by rod-the-farmer on October 31, 2008 at 1:53 am

I agree with DamnDirtyApe.

Shut it down. Investigate all the other similar schools, if they contain similar books, shut them down too. One question I have to ask. Where were the school inspectors in this case ? Did they just walk by and see there were enough washrooms ? Faith-based schools should be given particular scrutiny regarding their teaching materials and lesson plans. Either they adhere to standards, or their charter is removed/denied.

The claim that some chapters are good, and others not, is ludicrous. You can't have a book in the school with this kind of hatred. Students will find the offensive chapters. Imagine a western school, where some chapters in some books contain hate speech. How far do you think the school board would get claiming "Oh, we don't teach those chapters".

One last thought. If a xian school in western society had books that taught muslims are terrorists, you can bet the Muslims Society of Yourtown would be objecting fiercely. And that is far more based in fact than a claim xians and jews are monkeys.

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14. Comment #275232 by gcdavis on October 31, 2008 at 1:58 am

What the **** are we doing funding these places!

British MPs should wake up to the threat that this bullshit poses!

Other Comments by gcdavis

15. Comment #275233 by furynick on October 31, 2008 at 2:02 am

i think this is in freedom limits. freedom about religion. i don't care about it.


http://www.bizimantalya.com

Other Comments by furynick

16. Comment #275234 by DKPetersen on October 31, 2008 at 2:18 am

This is truly disgusting, although not at all surprising.

I agree with posts #8 and #10. Imagine if any non-islamic school taught anything remotely derisive or dismissive of Islam - there would be riots in the streets and buildings set ablaze. The double standard here is astounding. I am not claiming all Islamic private schools are like this, but this particular school should be shut down or forced to overhaul its curriculum.

This is exactly the form of child abuse explained in TGD, and should not be tolerated in any group.

Other Comments by DKPetersen

17. Comment #275235 by a non e-moose on October 31, 2008 at 2:25 am

man, that's a tough and oppinionated interviewer...

Other Comments by a non e-moose

18. Comment #275239 by Richard Dawkins on October 31, 2008 at 2:34 am

Jeremy Paxman is one of the world's most formidable interviewers, and he can be a bit of a bully, but in this case I thought he was at his magnificent best. The oil-funded invasion by the evil Saudi Arabian religious culture is one of the most frightening aspects of modern British life, because of its likely future effects when these children grow up. Apologists for it deserve, in my opinion, to be Paxmaned at every opportunity, and without mercy. Those on this forum who say Christian schools are just as bad have a point. But let's keep things in proportion. Christianity may be pretty bad, but isn't Islam in a league of its own when it comes to sheer vicious nastiness?

Nevertheless, I feel it my duty to point out that a follow-up film was produced, professionally, and presumably by a well-paid public relations firm, which put the opposing case, for the school. I have just watched it and my personal opinion is that it is deeply unconvincing -- a slick and well-financed whitewash is how I see it. But have a look and judge for yourself. Was she unfairly treated? Should the school have its government support money withdrawn? Should all faith schools have their government support withdrawn? The reply film is at
http://www.teachers.tv/video/22388

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

19. Comment #275241 by nickthelight on October 31, 2008 at 2:40 am

That woman was/is disgusting. Let us change the context to from 'Jews' or 'Christians' to 'blacks', keeping the hellfire stuff and then attempt to defend our views by claiming that 'it's part of a story and taken out of context'. It would never pass. All faith schools should be closed.

Other Comments by nickthelight

20. Comment #275246 by Katana on October 31, 2008 at 2:53 am

During the ages of 4-11 i went to a church of england primary school, mainly because it was the best school in the area. That's generally the problem with them, the faith schools are well funded and have better test results. You see a lot of people faking their religious credentials to get into these schools, because they want the best education for their kids even if they have to put up with religious nonsense.

I don't remember being force fed religion in school, though when you think back it was more subtle than that. We'd sing a few hymns in the main hall every morning (i just mimed), which praised jesus and his various doings, we'd have services every easter, christmas, lent and epiphany (the 12th day after christmas i think) at the local church.

C of E is rather tame compared to a lot of protestant branches so it was easy for me to shrug off later on, though i'd say i didn't really completely stop thinking about joining a religion till i read up on evolution and the bible in general and gave it a big miss at 16.

Not really a big deal in england though (being atheist) as religion is viewed with an apathy which is now beginning to play into the hands of more organised and fervent religions like the saudi backed schools/mosques. That sounded rather apologist for moderates but it isn't.

I did find a box full of school work books a few years ago and was reading through and didn't realise that i must have believed that crap because the line i wrote "i know that jesus died on the cross for our sins and is our saviour" was rather interesting for me to read in one book.

Other Comments by Katana

21. Comment #275248 by Communist on October 31, 2008 at 2:57 am

I haven't watched the movie promoting the opposing case (I am at work after all, and have to show a minimum of disipline :-)). But I'll watch it later today.

I have a view on this which is based in my ideology. I think we should close down not only faith schools but all schools which are not run by the public. This is not a human rights violation. The rights of all kids should have first priority, not the wishes of parents who wish religios indoctrination, ethnic or cultural separation or some kind of elite school for rich kids.

This used to be the firm left wing position. Unfortunately, many left leaning parties and groups around the world have been infected with postmodern woo-woo talk about 'identity', 'roots' and 'dialogue between civilizations'. Leftists infected with this trash ought to take some serious deworming medication.

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22. Comment #275251 by tieInterceptor on October 31, 2008 at 3:00 am

good video,

but this is ooooldddd....

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

23. Comment #275253 by traintrain on October 31, 2008 at 3:04 am

Anyone who wants to ensure good coverage of this story needs to visit the link that Styrer posted above. The reason this women did not agree to have the book withdrawn is a case of not having the authority at the time of the interview. The book was withdrawn. See http://www.teachers.tv/video/22388.

Also, look at the date of this Newsnight interview. Its not recent news. Don't get me wrong here. I am not a fan of faith-based schools, however I am more concerned that this is being presented in a way that could be seen as selective coverage. A bit like the Creationist quote-mining approach.

Other Comments by traintrain

24. Comment #275256 by DKPetersen on October 31, 2008 at 3:06 am

I was barely able to stomach the response video - it seemed more like an excuse as to why she looked so foolish during the interview than defending the policies of the school.

The producers of this video seem to be upset that she was stuck in a corner and had absolutely no wiggle room at all. She can't blame that on an interviewer, she needs to take some responsibility for once and admit, at the very least, that her school was teaching something that does not fly very well in a country like Britain.

Her tactics during the interview (not answering the questions, sticking to her talking points, and distorting simple facts) and her subsequent spin in the response video(blaming the media, dodging the original issues), really makes me wonder why she is not working for the McCain campaign. She would fit in quite well.

Other Comments by DKPetersen

25. Comment #275257 by Ivan The Not So Bad on October 31, 2008 at 3:06 am

That, a non e-moose, is Jeremy Paxman aka Paxo.

Hence, when someone is utterly destroyed by the interviewer, the media use the term "you've been Paxoed" ie. stuffed.

As Styrer said, this was broadcast an age ago. Since then, the Government has announced plans to expand Academy Schools (ie. a scheme where any fruitloop who has £2m to spare can buy a school, set its "ethos", and have it funded by the state). This has to be the worst idea ever.

But, as with the Vardy Schools (Reg Vardy is a fruitloop who on the back of profits from his car dealerships, coughed his two million and promply started to sneak creationism into his newly acquired classrooms) the Government just doesn't learn.

And amongst other silliness since this broadcast, a Catholic Girls' school has refused to administer the HPV vaccination to its pupils (it turns them into Jezebelles or something) and, although sex and relationship education is to be made compulsory according to a national standard, religious schools are to be allowed to have separate lessons that teach the religious viewpoint (condoms, gays etc. are bad) thus undoing the good work of the previous lesson.

Give me strength.

Other Comments by Ivan The Not So Bad

26. Comment #275261 by DamnDirtyApe on October 31, 2008 at 3:14 am

It's still a win, they've been exposed as dodgy even if they have avoided being shut down. I just hope they're still being watched.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

27. Comment #275268 by tieInterceptor on October 31, 2008 at 3:22 am

ok, that 2nd video tries to justify and put some context to all of it, "it was the old curriculum "etc etc...

well, old or new curriculum, the fact is that a textbook filled with exercises as asinine as this

"fill in with 'muslims' or 'hell-fire' in the dotted line: Non-muslims will go to ........ and the most awesome people in the whole wide world are ........"

that stuff like this made it even once to the school curriculum, old or new, is a tell tell sign. Also the fact that a school financed by a family of religious dictators exist in the UK is retarded.

can you imagine a spanish school financed by Generalissimo Francisco Franco, with fascist motives and portraits all over the place... opening in the 1960 here in the uk?

Islam's not a religion, it's an ideology.
School's for learning, mixing it with all this narrow minded claptrap is a dangerous thing to do.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

28. Comment #275272 by fatpiranha on October 31, 2008 at 3:29 am

Considering the success of the atheist bus campaign maybe we should try to raise £2M to open an atheist school.

Other Comments by fatpiranha

29. Comment #275275 by Communist on October 31, 2008 at 3:35 am

fatpiranha wrote:

Considering the success of the atheist bus campaign maybe we should try to raise £2M to open an atheist school.

Oh dear. That would be the biggest tactical mistake by the atheist movement in decades. Religious fundamentalists will applaud enthusiasticaly if that happens. They will then say 'Now you have your school, and now we shall have ours. Now you have your Darwinian evolution, and now we shall have our own science'. The real target of the fundies is public schools. So the correct opposing move is to defend, strengthen and expand public schools.

Other Comments by Communist

30. Comment #275279 by JAMCAM87 on October 31, 2008 at 3:40 am

The government should NEVER have allowed new faith schools to be set up. They should have been gradually phased out like they are beginning to do in scotland.

But you have to ask the question "why have Labour allowed it'" There are a few reasons:

-Tony Blair was religious himself.

-Faith schools often have rich donors and so labour could save money. It's similar to their PFI scheme.

-Faith schools have snuck in the backdoor, hidding under a veil of multiculturalism.

-Parents in the south of england are desperate for places for their kids in good schools.

People are naive if they think this is a one off. This is happening in EVERY faith school to varying degrees. We are letting thousands of children down and letting Labour get away with it.

Other Comments by JAMCAM87

31. Comment #275280 by irate_atheist on October 31, 2008 at 3:43 am

20. Comment #275246 by Katana -

I too went to such a school and was, quite frankly, pissed as fuck at the time because of it. A good school apart from the teaching lies as truth bit.

Presumably you had a choice when it came to singing those hymns. Or going to those services. No? Really? What a surprise.

If a school persisted in teaching children that America was North of Canada, that 2 plus 2 equals 5, or that water always flows uphill, it would not do particularly well at it's next OFSTED inspection. Teach mythology as fact and that's called 'instilling values' and praised by politicians.

Why?

Religion Poisons Everything.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

32. Comment #275284 by BryanEvans on October 31, 2008 at 3:46 am

I watched the reply film and thought it amusing that Dr Akyusuf tried to defend the offending texts by referring to them as mere 'footnotes' and that they were printed in a different, smaller font, thereby implying that they are not important. Interesting how that differs from the usually accepted advice when signing contracts etc., that it is the 'fine print' that should be scrutinised before entering into any binding contact. The devil is in the detail.

Other Comments by BryanEvans

33. Comment #275289 by Mrs Gregory on October 31, 2008 at 3:55 am

I see this woman doesn't mind the free western way of life that the UK provides her; her hair is done, she is wearing makeup etc. If she lived in Saudi she'd be covered head to toe in a fecking burka and treat like a cow.

What is the UK government doing letting schools of any religion like this teach childern! Lets not forget there are plenty of Christian funded schools spouting religious hatred as well, The Peter Vardy funded schools spring to mind.

Insidious individual.

Other Comments by Mrs Gregory

34. Comment #275295 by javb222 on October 31, 2008 at 4:02 am

If you can't close all faith schools down, just close down Islamic ones (not because they're Islamic, but because they are worse).

This idea that all cultures are equal needs to be burried, I think that's probably more responsible for faith schools than any financial dealings.

Other Comments by javb222

35. Comment #275297 by beeline on October 31, 2008 at 4:03 am

It's inevitable that faith schools will succeed - and they do: they consistently have among the best exam results in the country, and that, after all, is how money is allocated to these places: on a short-term 'success' basis.

Why do they have such good results? Because they have all the best children, whose parents don't want their kids going to (often, though not necessarily) useless secondary schools in their area. They feign religious interest, get a local priest to sign a form, and then get their kids in there with other 'nice middle-class children' and get them good GCSEs and A levels.

They know that their kids won't swallow the religious message (for Christian schools, at any rate), and the good education is worth it.

Sure, this leaves the door wide open to abuse from those extremist schools that want to make little soldiers out of their charges, which is terrible, so where's the compromise? Where is the political solution?

Who the hell knows? You can't just stop private religious funding of schools, because we live in a capitalist democracy where education is a business as well. And there are a lot of rich, worried middle-class parents who are prepared to pay through the nose for a 'decent', if slightly religious, education for their kids.

I went to a C-of-E school, and came out of it a shining atheist, as did practically everyone, thanks to our mandatory comparative religion lessons.

I guess we need to open school activities to harsher public scrutiny, starting with the inevitable panicky and sensationalist media response (which in this case seems quite justified, I have to say).

Other Comments by beeline

36. Comment #275298 by LaiTi on October 31, 2008 at 4:05 am

Faith schools may well be one of the worst legacies of the Blair government, but they certainly weren't a mistake.

Blair kept his religous convictions secret until out of office as a deliberate (and sensible) step towards gaining politcal power. He'd never have been PM if the country realised he was such a wingnut.

Everyone assumed he was trying to pressurise W regarding US policy in Iraq. Maybe he agreed with the 'crusade' all along?

Either way, the rest of the UK can't afford to follow the stellar example of Northern Ireland and large parts of Scotland when it comes to indoctrinating children with kneejerk hatred and fear based on myths.

Other Comments by LaiTi

37. Comment #275299 by JAMCAM87 on October 31, 2008 at 4:05 am

Comment #275239 by Richard Dawkins

I know your questions were mostly rhetorical but here goes anyway:

"Was she unfairly treated'"

Yes that meanie Paxman should never had asked those mean questions! And she should have been given at least a day to learn how to speak english properly!

"Should the school have its government support money withdrawn'"

No, the government should fund a small bulldozer and send it in that direction.

"Should all faith schools have their government support withdrawn'"

No they should all be bulldozed.

EDIT - spelling

Other Comments by JAMCAM87

38. Comment #275302 by fatpiranha on October 31, 2008 at 4:08 am

Communist wrote:

Oh dear. That would be the biggest tactical mistake by the atheist movement in decades. Religious fundamentalists will applaud enthusiasticaly if that happens. They will then say 'Now you have your school, and now we shall have ours. Now you have your Darwinian evolution, and now we shall have our own science'. The real target of the fundies is public schools. So the correct opposing move is to defend, strengthen and expand public schools.

Is there anything stopping them doing that anyway? Do you think that there is any possibility of this government or the next removing funding from faith schools? Personally I doubt it. Why only let the enemy spread their memes? I'm pretty sure that an atheist school would be successful & get good grades for its pupils. I'm also pretty sure that it would cause protests & possibly bring the whole funding of faith schools question into sharper focus which may result in the abandonment of government funding.

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39. Comment #275307 by JAMCAM87 on October 31, 2008 at 4:11 am

Beeline,

Are you saying that we should just let faith schools bee and hope that children emerge as atheists.'

Why don't we let the BNP fund a school then since we just live in a "capatilist democracy" '

There is just no such thing as a compromise when it comes to faith schools I'm afraid.

Other Comments by JAMCAM87

40. Comment #275308 by nickthelight on October 31, 2008 at 4:14 am

Is this clip EXACTLY one year old or has RDF got access to tonights show?

Other Comments by nickthelight

41. Comment #275320 by MC1R on October 31, 2008 at 4:25 am

Hear hear!! I live in the North East, home of the Peter Vardy academy's and I could swear he's trying to build himself a little utopia of stupid up here (it's not just schools he funds but also recently some fundie festivals). Maybe we should use some of the atheist bus money on the routes to these and other such academies.

Other Comments by MC1R

42. Comment #275327 by PrimeNumbers on October 31, 2008 at 4:30 am

Paxman did a good job, but he could have said in response their being "good chapters" in the book, "that means there are bad chapters in the book then."

The lady who runs the school should be facing charges under whatever nasty laws the Muslim lobby have tried to get in to protect their religion, perhaps some kind of race hatred law. Now I don't agree with these laws, but in this case, I'd raise an exception.

Shut down all faith schools, and re-open under government control. Remove religious indoctrination from schools. And do it now, before its too late.

I was once asked by a pupil, who's class teacher was also the religious teacher at the school, "why do we have to do RE in school?", and the only answer I could think of for that kid was "to keep your teacher in a job".

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

43. Comment #275328 by Communist on October 31, 2008 at 4:31 am

fatpiranha wrote in response to an earlier entry of mine:

Is there anything stopping them doing that anyway? Do you think that there is any possibility of this government or the next removing funding from faith schools? Personally I doubt it. Why only let the enemy spread their memes? I'm pretty sure that an atheist school would be successful & get good grades for its pupils. I'm also pretty sure that it would cause protests & possibly bring the whole funding of faith schools question into sharper focus which may result in the abandonment of government funding.

Of course it is possible to stop this. A unified public school system has come under attack only recently here in Scandinavia, and it is of course possible to change the course. If a UK government has the power to comit war crimes in Iraq, then it has the power to enforce a reasonable school system if it wants to.

And what is the dangerous meme that the fundies are spreading? The meme is that groups of children are inherently different, and that a unified school system should be undermined. An atheist school will only accelerate the spread of this precapitalist bronze age meme.

And as far as causing protests: This is the sort of contrasting tactic that will likely backfire. It will cause protests - among secularists and atheists. The fundies are tactically smart, and will stay silent. The subsequent retoric will then be that atheists and secularists are no different from the faithheads.

Other Comments by Communist

44. Comment #275337 by ev-love on October 31, 2008 at 4:52 am

Richard wrote (Comment 275239)

“Those on this forum who say Christian schools are just as bad have a point. But let's keep things in proportion. Christianity may be pretty bad, but isn't Islam in a league of its own when it comes to sheer vicious nastiness?”


Agreed, but ‘not quite so nasty’ can still get pretty nasty! It’s not only the faith schools, either: behind all that superficial charm, the Alpha course teaches the same thing as this detestable school - that all unbelievers will go to hell.


Here’s the Alpha leader, the Rev Nicky Gumbel:

“Is Jesus the Only way to God? The answer of the New Testament is an emphatic ‘Yes’…Jesus is the only name that can save…there is no other means of escape except through Jesus Christ.”
(Searching Issues, Exploring the Meaning of Life’ p 26).


When Jewish agnostic Jon Ronson of the Guardian attended an Alpha course he was solemnly told that he and all his family were going to hell unless they accepted Jesus.

Don’t suppose Andrew Brown of The Church Times is often quoted approvingly in this forum, but his thoughts on all this were interesting:

It (Alpha) flourishes in its joyfully Calvinistic way partly because no one really believes in hell any more. If the courses explained that everyone Jewish, homosexual, Muslim, or atheist, was going to die of cancer for their sins, and this showed the justice of God, they would not, I think, be as popular as they are. Yet hell is by definition infinitely worse than anything that can happen to us on earth, including all possible diseases. If Nicky Gumbel is right about the Jews, then Hugo Gryn is now somewhere worse than Auschwitz and so are most of the people who died there and all the pathetic boy soldiers of the Iran-Iraq war. Call me a hardened cynic but I hesitate to accuse Gumbel of insincerity; and if he sincerely believes what he preaches I can’t find him quite as charming as most people do.”



(The late Rabbi Hugo Gryn, patron of the Anne Frank Educational Trust and himself an Auschwitz survivor, came under heavy criticism from religious conservatives for his ‘liberal’ views.)

Other Comments by ev-love

45. Comment #275340 by beeline on October 31, 2008 at 4:59 am

JAMCAM87 said:

Are you saying that we should just let faith schools bee and hope that children emerge as atheists.'

Where did you get that idea? I am merely describing the position that we are all in, and how it got to be that way, and why it persists. I am not justifying it, or even endorsing it. Description is not proscription. Unless you have some analysis or evidence of exactly what kind of people these faith schools are turning out, and whether they are, as you fear, religious fundamentalists of the worst kind, there's hardly much point in assuming the worst without looking at the situation from all sides. In the first case, as I've pointed out, the benefits of these schools to individuals are being ignored, which is hardly a sound basis for analysing their effects on society. Look at all the evidence, or you risk becoming like them.

Now I don't have that analysis either, which is why I'm not so quick to condemn them straight away. This may strike you as 'apologetic', but I have to face the fact that where I live has the worst public secondary education in the country, and faith schools are an alternative. So I need to know the facts as much as anybody. Hysteria doesn't help.

Why don't we let the BNP fund a school then since we just live in a "capatilist democracy"

I'd personally have a lot to say against that, as would any clear-thinking person, but if the BNP were remotely well enough organised to set one up, what could this democracy do to stop them? The law applies to all, annoyingly. That's what living in a democracy is like, which is why democratic politics is all about compromise. I don't like it any more than you do, I expect, but unless you can suggest an alternative, that's what we're stuck with.

There is just no such thing as a compromise when it comes to faith schools I'm afraid.

The current situation seems to belie this assertion: there clearly has been a compromise, and, where money is concerned, it seems horribly inevitable. What I think you meant is that it's a dreadful compromise, with some appalling consequences, as Richard points out, and with which I agree.

But the way to deal with it is, first of all, to try to understand why and how the situation got to be this way, not to simply repeat hysterical prophecies of how we're all doomed.

I'm encouraging some sensible thought about what to do. Changing the saw seems to be one way, but it's hard to know how to do it without restricting the freedom of people to make stacks of lovely money for themselves, whether they're private individuals cashing in on this country's dreadful record on education spending, or the government cashing in on private investment from abroad.

It's not as simple as we'd all love to believe it is.

Other Comments by beeline

46. Comment #275343 by JernJane on October 31, 2008 at 5:04 am

I despise her evasion of the questions.

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47. Comment #275347 by fatpiranha on October 31, 2008 at 5:10 am

Re:43. Comment #275328 by Communist

'Fundies are smart'. Really??? They must breed them differently in Scandinavia because the ones we have over here are dumb as rocks. Britain isn't Scandinavia. Many of us wish it was. If I lived in Scandinavia then I would agree that an atheist school would be counterproductive. Over here it's a different matter, religion is pandered to much more & is insidiously creeping into our school system. We can fight back or 'turn the other cheek'.

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48. Comment #275352 by halbard101 on October 31, 2008 at 5:15 am

Yes this Ku Klux Klan manual does contain a lot of racist content but we don't teach those sections. We only teach the sections containing US history.

It's fine!

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49. Comment #275354 by Luthien on October 31, 2008 at 5:17 am

Go Paxman!

About time someone faced them down like this.

"the audience will make up their own mind about what you've just said."

Priceless :-D

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50. Comment #275360 by StarScream on October 31, 2008 at 5:31 am

A debate program on SBS in Australia called Insight did an episode months ago on the increasing popularity of faith schools in AUS.Insight Ep#17

In the same page, you can click on the tab "Transcript" to read instead of watching the video.

One quote that I need to paste that really made my eyes roll and is pretty much open to criticism.

...The students from Mount Evelyn Christian School are here at the Australian International Academy to learn about Islam. To break the ice, the students form into small groups and discuss what they have in common.
*snip*
After the ice was broken, it was time for an introduction to Islam.

Bilal Assad, Assistant Imam: So the first thing that any Muslim has to do is to really believe in their heart, personally between them and God, that there is only one God, there is only one creator. A woman is not a Muslim because her husband is, a Muslim girl doesn't wear the veil, what you see, the scarf, because her dad told her to or because her husband - if she's married, her husband forced her to. It's actually, you can't be a Muslim that way. It comes from the heart.

Katie Lagerway, Mount Evelyn Christian School: Do the girls wear the scarves outside of school or is it just a school uniform? And also, if it says in the Koran that people should wear the headscarves, how come the men don't wear that as well?

Bilal Assad: The reason behind it - you've asked a very heavy question, and the only real answer I'm going to give you about that one, which is why women wear the veil and why men don't, is because God is the one that commanded it to be this way.

Petra Courtman, MECH: So we've heard a lot about the jihad on TV and stuff, can you tell us anything about that?

Bilal Assad: OK. It's a good question and obviously it's inevitable that someone is going to ask about that question, so it's a fair question. The word 'jihad' is an Arabic word, and literally in English it means to strive and struggle to that which is best and good for the wellbeing of yourself, the wellbeing of your family, the wellbeing of the people that live around you, the Muslims, and the wellbeing of the people who live around you who are also non-Muslims, for the wellbeing of animals and the environment also. So jihad is a huge area, it's not about killing.

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