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Monday, November 3, 2008 | Reason : Religion as Child Abuse | print version Print | Comments |

Document Fred Phelps's son is an atheist: Running from hell

by Trevor Melanson

Reposted from:
http://www.ubyssey.ca/?p=5624

GROWING UP IN AMERICA’S MOST HATED FAMILY

The mattock, a close cousin of the pickaxe, is used to dig through tough, earthy surfaces—it loosens soil, breaks rock, and tears through knotted grass. Its handle is a three-foot wooden shaft, twice the density of a baseball bat and its dual-sided iron head is comprised of a chisel and a pick. It was Pastor Fred Phelps’s weapon of choice when beating his children according to his son, Nate Phelps.

“The Bible says ‘spare the rod, spoil the child,’” explained Nate, “and he would be screaming that out as he was beating us.” One Christmas night, Pastor Phelps hit Nate over 200 times with a mattock’s handle, swinging it like a baseball player.

Nate would hide out in the garage with his siblings, where he could escape his father’s wrath. What he couldn’t escape, however, was the fear of going to hell. He suffered much abuse growing up under the roof of the infamous Westboro Baptist Church (WBC)—he still suffers today.

The church, which believes that “God is hateful,” hasn’t changed its grim outlook since Nate’s time there 30 years ago, but it has expanded its fame. WBC has become well known for picketing funerals, where its followers, predominantly Phelps family members, proclaim that God is punishing “fags and fag enablers.” To further the damage, the church frequently targets military funerals.

“WBC will picket the funerals of these Godless, fag army American soldiers when their pieces return home,” their website says. They believe God is punishing America for facilitating homosexuality, which, according to the church, ought to be a capital crime.

More recently, WBC planned to protest the funeral of Tim McLean, the young man who was beheaded on a Greyhound bus. However, they were barred from crossing the Canadian border. It is little wonder that Louis Theroux’s BBC documentary on the Phelps’ was titled The Most Hated Family in America.

Incidentally, it was when I mentioned this documentary that Nate introduced himself to me.

It was a Monday in September and I was on my way to the Cranbrook Airport. Cranbrook, a modest city of about 25,000, hides in BC’s Kootenays. It rests behind a shroud of mountains, clean air, and restful silence.

I began a conversation with my cab driver, who looked to be in his late forties, with a trimmed beard and kind eyes. He told me that he once owned a chain of print shops with his brother, that he liked the BBC, and that Pastor Fred Phelps was his father—only after I had mentioned WBC, unaware. Following this coincidence, he agreed to an interview.

Nate’s story tells of the “shadow—the dark, ugly thing at the back of their minds.” The fear of burning in hell never goes away, said Nate, who is still struggling with it himself. “It’s destructive. It’s hard to live life with that stuff in your head.” But he’s doing his best.

His conditioning began over 40 years ago in Topeka, Kansas, where WBC was formed and still exists today. As its pastor, his father very quickly alienated himself from most of the people who had seeded the church.

“A young lady got pregnant by a solider at Fort Riley,” explained Nate, “and [my father’s] response to that was to kick her out of the church…and that sent most of the people packing. There was already that siege mentality developing: us against the world.”

Sundays were particularly strict. Nate was expected to dress formally and present himself in the church auditorium by a certain time. The sermon that followed was always “fire-and-brimstone preaching.”

“I know that very early on [my father] was under the influence of those drugs,” Nate said. Pastor Phelps was attending law school and would take amphetamines to stay awake and barbiturates to come down. “It spiralled out of control [and he] was prone toward violence….He just wasn’t tolerant toward the presence of all of us kids running around—and the accompanying noise….He would beat the kids with his fists and kick them and knee them in the stomach.”

Nate doesn’t know why his father was such an angry man; he didn’t know his father very well. “I just know that that’s the way he was and I stayed as far away from him as I could.”

He remembers when his father would force him and his siblings to run five to ten miles around the high school track every night. One evening another boy was riding his bicycle along the outer lanes of the track, and Fred began yelling at him to leave. The boy’s response was to keep riding on the track, and Fred’s was to push him off the bike. The boy left, screaming, and 20 minutes later a truck came screeching into the parking lot. The boy had brought his father, who approached Fred and knocked him to the ground.

“The man was threatening to sue him,” said Nate. “Then my old man yelled at us all to get in the car and we went home, and [my father] ended up beating my mom that night.”

Nate left home the day he turned 18. For a while he worked for a lawyer in Kansas City, eventually moving to St. Louis to work for a printing company with his brother Mark. He and Mark opened up their own print shop soon after. But then, after three years and despite his brother’s disapproval, Nate returned home.

“My sisters were trying to convince me that things had changed….I attended college for a semester and realized that while he may have been less prone to physical violence, he still was the same person. He just used different techniques to violate people—with his words and his deeds.”

In October of 1980, Nate left for good. He found residence above a Volkswagen repair shop, where he went through about six months in a drug and alcohol haze. He eventually ran into Mark’s wife and she suggested that he and his brother reconcile their animosity, which had been caused when Nate returned to WBC temporarily. And so Nate moved to California to work with his brother again.

Late one night over a decade later, Nate found himself listening to his father being interviewed on a radio station in LA—it wasn’t long after Fred had gained national attention with his protests. Nate called in under the impression that the interview was a rerun, but realized after calling that his father was on the air live.

“I was freaked out. I got on and I challenged [my father]….That lasted about maybe a minute, and it devolved quickly into him calling me every name he could imagine, and then he handed the phone to Shirley, and she delivered a few diatribes.”

Shirley Phelps-Roper, Nate’s sister, has gained her own reputation for being the church’s other loud voice. Nate says that she has always been their father’s favourite. I contacted her to ask about her brother, and she responded with the following.

“Nathan Phelps is a rebel against God,” she said. “He has nothing to look forward to except sorrow, misery, death and hell….Great peace fell upon our house when Nathan left….He spit on the goodness of his mother and father. In spite of that, his father and mother loved him and did their duty to him…and required of him that he behave while he lived in their house. They loved him in the only way that the Lord God defines love! They told him the truth about what the Lord his God required of him. He was not going to have that!”

Shirley also claimed that Nate “left when he was a raging disobedient rebel with selective memory,” and asked, “What in this world is he doing in Canada?”

Nate met his ex-wife in ’81, married in ’86. They had three children together and he helped raise a fourth. They moved to a new, pre-planned city, Rancho Santa Margarita, nestled at the foot of Saddleback Mountain in California.

“It was like paradise,” Nate said. “It was a perfect little town, and we were young and starting a family. It all just seemed so ideal.”

They joined a church, where they met many other families, five of which they became close with.

“Every Sunday, I was listening closely and trying desperately to find something in the preaching or in the words that would convince me that this was right. Even while I was doing that, I was always skeptical…but I never voiced it. I was very good at playing the apologist for the Christian faith. In fact, I had quite a reputation for writing and talking in defence of Christianity.”

The turning point was one Christmas, when Nate decided to teach his children about God. In the end, his son Tyler began crying in the backseat of the car, saying that he didn’t want to go to hell.

“He wanted to believe because he didn’t want to go to hell,” Nate said. “I was just stunned because I didn’t know what I had said or how I had left him with that fear. I thought I was doing a good job of presenting it without the fear.

“Thinking about it after the fact, I realized you can’t do that. With a young mind it doesn’t matter. You can try as much as you want to talk about how good God is, but the bottom line is there’s this intolerably frightening punishment if you don’t accept it. And how does a young mind deal with that?”

Nate agrees with prominent atheist and scientist Richard Dawkins, who has said that religion can be “real child abuse.”

Dawkins tells the story of an American woman who wrote to him. She was raised as a Roman Catholic and was sexually abused by her parish priest in his car. Around the same time, a Protestant school friend of hers died tragically.

“Being fondled by the priest simply left the impression (from the mind of a seven-year-old) as yucky,” she wrote, “while the memory of my friend going to hell was one of cold, immeasurable fear. I never lost sleep because of the priest, but I spent many a night being terrified that the people I loved would go to hell. It gave me nightmares.”

“The threat of eternal Hell is an extreme example of mental abuse,” Dawkins says on his website, “just as violent sodomy is an extreme example of physical abuse.”

“I couldn’t agree more,” asserted Nate. “In so many different ways we have abused children with religion over the centuries.”

Nate said that he is being contacted by nephews he’d never previously met who have made the same choice he did 30 years ago. One of them was Tim, who told Nate that he spends many nights crying himself to sleep. He’s scared. “Once he made the choice, he’s cut off. Everything that he grew up with is taken away from him, and he gets to wonder if he’s going to burn in hell….[He’s] living with that shadow.”

Eventually, Nate told his wife that he couldn’t continue believing. Then he told the men from the five families that they were close to, and they responded by disappearing from his life.

“As far as they were concerned, I was a traitor—well, that’s how they behaved.”

In 2005, Nate’s marriage failed. Around the same time, he met another woman online, Angela. She lived in Canada, and Nate knew that he had to make a tough decision.

“The decision was that I was going to come here to her,” Nate said. “When I left, one of the first things [my wife] did was blame the failed marriage on us leaving the church.”

He moved to Cranbrook in December of ’05. Since then, he’s been doing a lot of reading and thinking.

“I do declare myself an atheist now,” affirmed Nate, “although I’m willing to admit that there’s stuff in life that I’m not real clear on yet.”

Despite this, he still lives with anxiety caused by his experiences over 40 years ago.

“I spent the first 25 or 30 years of my life denying that anything was wrong with me….Then bam: all this weird stuff just starts coming out.

“It’s so, so difficult to go back and look at stuff and try to make sense of it, especially being this far removed from it. I’ll immerse myself in it for a couple weeks, and then I got to back away because it’s too destructive. But I have to believe it’s going to turn out.”

I asked Nate what he wanted for his future.

“I think the best way to answer that is what I said to my wife when we were fighting at the end.” He paused for a moment. “That I just want peace. I want to not wake up fearful every morning.”

Comments 1 - 50 of 143 |

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1. Comment #277251 by Kit Finn on November 3, 2008 at 9:28 am

 avatarAnd people like Pastor Phelps say that 'Fundamentalist Atheists' are evil....

Other Comments by Kit Finn

2. Comment #277258 by Tzsak on November 3, 2008 at 9:34 am

 avatarPoor guy, well done to him.

Other Comments by Tzsak

3. Comment #277259 by HandyGeek on November 3, 2008 at 9:35 am

 avatarDamn. (Edit) This is exactly the kind of mental abuse RD is so strongly against; not to mention the associated justification of physical abuse.

Other Comments by HandyGeek

4. Comment #277263 by Tzsak on November 3, 2008 at 9:42 am

 avatarHmm, Shirley seems to have replied on their website. The usual pleasantries it seems~

Other Comments by Tzsak

5. Comment #277264 by AfraidToDie on November 3, 2008 at 9:44 am

 avatarI wonder if Nate knows about this website? If not, could we find his email and each of us let him know there is a lot of people who know there is no such thing as hell, and invite him to visit this clear thinking oasis?

Other Comments by AfraidToDie

6. Comment #277266 by Ex~ on November 3, 2008 at 9:48 am

 avatarThe truth will set you free.

Other Comments by Ex~

7. Comment #277267 by black wolf on November 3, 2008 at 9:53 am

 avatarDid Fred ever go to jail for being a child-abusing, wife-beating druggie? No.

Does religious freedom protect him from justice? Apparently yes.

Does it matter that he's quite probably mentally ill and evidentially dangerous? Obviously not.

What is going on?

I'm generally in favor of religious freedom, but this... THIS.

Yes, I wish the father of the bike kid had broken his neck.

Other Comments by black wolf

8. Comment #277269 by DamnDirtyApe on November 3, 2008 at 9:58 am

Everything in a nutshell.

And good old Louis Theroux too.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

9. Comment #277271 by Caudimordax on November 3, 2008 at 10:05 am

 avatarI think it would be lovely if Nate knew about resources like this - and as long as he stayed away from the Palin threads, he could have his wish:

“That I just want peace. I want to not wake up fearful every morning.”


Other Comments by Caudimordax

10. Comment #277272 by JFHalsey on November 3, 2008 at 10:07 am

What a terrible, terrible, terrible story. Horrible, through and through. The parts about Fred Phelps' abusiveness and drugs was so terrible I actually had to check the source to make sure this article was coming from an actual press agency, and not just some random blog.

I thought there would be a happy ending, what with this Nate finally coming out of christianity, but it cost him his marriage and his four kids'' If they got married in '86 and divorced in '05, that would put the kids still in the home, and their father moves away to Canada.

This is just a horrible story through and through, and it shows that the Middle East isn't the only place where religion utterly destroys peoples lives.

Other Comments by JFHalsey

11. Comment #277273 by mdowe on November 3, 2008 at 10:09 am

 avatarFred Phelps is such scum. I'm astonished somebody hasn't put a bullet through his head. And no, I'm not advocating it -- I am surprised it hasn't happened.

Other Comments by mdowe

12. Comment #277275 by Caudimordax on November 3, 2008 at 10:12 am

 avatar10. Comment #277272 by JFHalsey

Losing the wife and children must have been awful. It seems that a lot of marriages (and friendships) can't survive that kind of change (see Dan Barker's "Losing Faith in Faith"). Although I knew one couple where she was a jehovah's whackjob and he was an atheist and I never had any idea how they worked that out.

Other Comments by Caudimordax

13. Comment #277276 by severalspeciesof on November 3, 2008 at 10:14 am

 avatarAs Irate would probably say:

"Fred Phelps is a fucktard'...

'cept that's an insult to other fucktards...

Are there degrees of fucktardism?...

Other Comments by severalspeciesof

14. Comment #277277 by beanson on November 3, 2008 at 10:16 am

 avatarFred Phelps just puts into practice what most Christian men would like to do- bully, dominate those physically weaker, sow hatred and fear, promote prejudice...

Old Testament Goddy would love him

Other Comments by beanson

15. Comment #277279 by DiveMedic on November 3, 2008 at 10:20 am

I have to say that I do have a good idea of what Nate is going through in terms of being a hell-fearing atheist.

When you spend most of your life being certain of the existence of hell and the deceptive nature of Satan to lure you there, these certainties do not simply go away with a healthy dose of rational thinking.

I still have moments where I wonder if all that led me away from Christian faith could possibly be a trick to lure me into hellfire. These fears are easily alleviated by thinking about the absurdity of these beliefs for a few moments, but it goes to show just how deeply ingrained Christian dogma becomes if instilled in a young mind.

Other Comments by DiveMedic

16. Comment #277280 by ScaryJerry1970 on November 3, 2008 at 10:22 am

 avatarStories like this one are why I don't bother with horror films. The reality of humanity's monsters is far more frightening than anything someone could invent for a movie!

Other Comments by ScaryJerry1970

17. Comment #277281 by Rantandreason on November 3, 2008 at 10:27 am

While I didn't have nearly as horrific a childhood as this man, I see alot of similarities in the way I thought as I gave up my faith. The utter fear of hell and the inner dissonance from understanding the truth of the matter but having this lingering boogey man in the back of your mind.

Other Comments by Rantandreason

18. Comment #277282 by Ascaphus on November 3, 2008 at 10:27 am

 avatar
...The parts about Fred Phelps' abusiveness and drugs was so terrible I actually had to check the source to make sure...


But what he's saying is that the physical abuse is not the hard part to live through. It's the psychological threats and punishment. My guess is that there are far more families where physical abuse does not occur, but the mental & emotional abuse is just as damaging.

Matt

Other Comments by Ascaphus

19. Comment #277283 by severalspeciesof on November 3, 2008 at 10:27 am

 avatar14. Comment #277277 by beanson
Old Testament Goddy would love him


So would New testament goddy:

Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"

Other Comments by severalspeciesof

20. Comment #277286 by ggab7768 on November 3, 2008 at 10:31 am

 avatarI would hope that Nate is aware of this sight.
It seems as though he needs to do things in his own time, but I'm sure it would help him to know that we all wish the best for him.
My upbringing came nowhere near what his was like. I just can't get my brain around that kind of torment.
That Nate is certainly a strong man, to pull himself away from it. Something to admire.

Other Comments by ggab7768

21. Comment #277287 by bluebird on November 3, 2008 at 10:33 am

 avatarI seem to recall one of the estranged sons visiting this site last year--think it was just a post or two.

An update per banning military funeral protests(MO):http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/869526.html

Comment #16: Ditto!!!!

Other Comments by bluebird

22. Comment #277291 by MaxD on November 3, 2008 at 10:51 am

 avatarI had a mild catholic upbringing, and was not an alter boy during the tenure of the guy we all suspected of enjoying their company a little too much.
My parents seemed to take the approach that religion, any religion was good for growin kids. But among the kids and the parents there has always been this gallows humor about preists and alter boys. Dodging preists and the nonsense of hellfire was about the worst I had to deal with. Thank Odin.

This poor fellow though....

Other Comments by MaxD

23. Comment #277300 by debaser71 on November 3, 2008 at 11:04 am

What happened to "The Most Hated Woman in America?"

Other Comments by debaser71

24. Comment #277302 by FatherNature on November 3, 2008 at 11:07 am

 avatarThis is very sad. I hope Nate finds peace and that Fred Phelps gets treatment for his mental illness. I suspect he was a victim of child abuse too.

BTW, when I read the subtitle, GROWING UP IN AMERICA’S MOST HATED FAMILY, I thought it was a story about an atheist family.

Other Comments by FatherNature

25. Comment #277305 by V'Ger on November 3, 2008 at 11:17 am

 avatarIt's terrible what some brain dead, and evil faith-heads can subject children too.

I recall from the Louis Theroux documentary that there was a teenage girl he became friends with - and she really looked about ready to leave.. even if she was trying hard to deny it.

I can't help but hope one day this guy will accidentally picket a Mafia funeral ;-)

Other Comments by V'Ger

26. Comment #277306 by InfuriatedSciTeacher on November 3, 2008 at 11:17 am

*cringing* What's the statute of limitations on child abuse in Kansas' This degenerate belongs in prison.


Apparently we're still having issues with question marks...

Other Comments by InfuriatedSciTeacher

27. Comment #277307 by History_Junky on November 3, 2008 at 11:18 am

 avatar"More recently, WBC planned to protest the funeral of Tim McLean, the young man who was beheaded on a Greyhound bus. However, they were barred from crossing the Canadian border. It is little wonder that Louis Theroux’s BBC documentary on the Phelps’ was titled The Most Hated Family in America."

I understand that allot of the world sees Canadians as pacifists, but I will tell you this, if these bastards actually did this they'd end up back over the border in an ambulance.

Other Comments by History_Junky

28. Comment #277310 by a non e-moose on November 3, 2008 at 11:22 am

wbc is a godsent for showing people how ugly religion can be. Religious may say it's a straw man, and few religious are like that, but I say that it's the moderates are the perversion of true faith not the fundamentalists.

Other Comments by a non e-moose

29. Comment #277314 by firstelder_d on November 3, 2008 at 11:41 am

 avatar
I understand that allot of the world sees Canadians as pacifists, but I will tell you this, if these bastards actually did this they'd end up back over the border in an ambulance.


Definitely. When I read that these 'people' we're coming to do that, I was furious. Apparently alot of people offered to protect the McLean family, I would have been one of them if I wasn't so far away.

Other Comments by firstelder_d

30. Comment #277315 by cerad on November 3, 2008 at 11:46 am

 avatarNot to burst anyone's bubble but this story is an obvious fake. Hit a child with the equivalent of a baseball bat 200 hundred times and that child will be dead.

Other Comments by cerad

31. Comment #277318 by amalthea on November 3, 2008 at 11:52 am

 avatarAgree 100% with the Moose. The fundamentalists aren't really the problem, they're few and far between. It's the moderates who allow them to practice their insanity, fail to legislate against it, fail to imprison the real nut-jubs and then try to talk to the rest of us about 'tolerance'.

I'd never really heard about the Phelps family, so reading this story, then doing a little research leads me to think that they have become a stalking horse in the US. A bunch of nut-jubs who actually do what some other nut-jobs think of doing/saying, but don't have the balls.

America's Most Hated? Don't think so. Pissing on the graves of your returning soldiers, but still free to talk shit, and AMAZINGLY, still alive. I'm stunned. what does it take to get yourself arrested in the US? Oh, hang on, just checked, there's nearly 1.1 Million US citizens on the watchlist, so maybe you just have to be a citizen.....

http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/watchlistcounter.html

What interesting times we live in. (Yeah, I know the curse)

A
Edit: to correct the curse.

Other Comments by amalthea

32. Comment #277319 by Caudimordax on November 3, 2008 at 11:52 am

 avatarcerad - Good point. Hmmmm.
Checking this out (as best I can).

Other Comments by Caudimordax

33. Comment #277322 by eh-theist on November 3, 2008 at 11:59 am

 avatarmoose: I'm doubtful that Nate thinks that his father was "godsent".

If only he caused no harm to others, I could agree with you.

History_Junky: You're right on that one. I'm not sure we still use ambulances to transport bodies, though ;-)

Other Comments by eh-theist

34. Comment #277323 by Frankus1122 on November 3, 2008 at 12:00 pm

 avatarI am going to perhaps evoke some backlash here but I do not think that religion is the cause of the problems with the Phelps family. I think Fred Phelps is mentally ill. Sure, religion has probably fueled and enabled his disease, but at the root of it all is a sick sick man.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

35. Comment #277324 by Caudimordax on November 3, 2008 at 12:00 pm

 avatarWell, going to the link the story was re-posted from, certainly Shirley Phelps-Roper takes it seriously. What a NUT!!! Actually, I do remember seeing her on some news show - very scary. As for "Most Hated Woman in America," I think that was Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

Other Comments by Caudimordax

36. Comment #277326 by Caudimordax on November 3, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarFrankus - You're probably right, but it's interesting that if you are a mentally ill, violent child abuser, they take you off to jail or a psychiatric ward, whereas if you are a religious mentally ill, violent child abuser, you get news coverage.

Edit: In other words, religion may not be the underlying cause of this nuttiness, but it does make for an untouchable cover.

Other Comments by Caudimordax

37. Comment #277327 by Meph on November 3, 2008 at 12:11 pm

 avatarReading about Nate's account of fear reminded me of my own episode with the fear of Hell. Granted, Nate's experience was undoubtedly thousands of times worse than mine. But I do remember not being able to sleep one night after being told by my mother when I was about 10 or 11 years old that something I was doing, the natural exploration of my body, was sinful and that I could go to Hell because it was against our religion, Catholicism.

I'm ashamed to admit this, but a few years later when I worked a local grocery store while in high school, I instilled this fear on another. A girl I worked with asked me one day if I, and all other boys, masturbated. Instead of telling her the truth, I lied and said that it was "against our religion" as she attended the same Catholic church as my family. When I told her this, her eyes got as big as saucers, she went pale, and a very worried look came over her face. I feel guilty knowing that I may have had a hand in her possible suffering.

Other Comments by Meph

38. Comment #277329 by ggab7768 on November 3, 2008 at 12:16 pm

 avatarCerad
When my grandfather used to come home from a late night with the boys and a couple bottles of shine, my grandmother would beat him with a butcher knife. Obviously. she turned it sideways, but I still don't know how she did it so often without an accident.
I'm quite sure Mr. Phelps wasn't swinging as hard as he could with the pick handle, and he probably didn't literally hit him 200 times.
By the way, my grandfather stopped drinking for fifty years. Didn't have a drop until my grandmother passed.
That kinda scare sticks with you a while.

Other Comments by ggab7768

39. Comment #277330 by rod-the-farmer on November 3, 2008 at 12:16 pm

 avatar

Eventually, Nate told his wife that he couldn’t continue believing. Then he told the men from the five families that they were close to, and they responded by disappearing from his life.

That would seem to be a positive step. I wonder if they were the same families that did the bible study classes with the "Wife Swap" atheist who swapped with the "dark side" fundie ?

My mind "hangs" when I try to contemplate people like this, who would reject friends because they lost their faith. (Shakes head)

I probably have friends who are strongly religious, and as long as they don't try to push their beliefs on me and my family, I am content to have them as friends. What is wrong with these people ? Have their brains congealed somehow ? How can they hold a job, balance their bankbooks, do any complex thinking, without something short-circuiting ?

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

40. Comment #277331 by phil rimmer on November 3, 2008 at 12:17 pm

 avatarComment #277327 by Meph

When I told her this [going to hell], her eyes got as big as saucers, she went pale, and a very worried look came over her face


Ah....The Power!

Comment #277326 by Caudimordax

Exactly! Religion licenses abusive power better than anything else.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

41. Comment #277332 by Enlightenme.. on November 3, 2008 at 12:19 pm

 avatarPiss
Cunt
Shit
Fuck
Slut

Hate
Fear

Hell

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

42. Comment #277333 by a non e-moose on November 3, 2008 at 12:21 pm

@ eh-theist
of course, you're right.

Other Comments by a non e-moose

43. Comment #277334 by Katana on November 3, 2008 at 12:24 pm

 avatarI guess i'm not alone in being an atheist who still has the fear of hellfire locked in a part of my mind i try to ignore, rational thinking can't undo conditioning in my case, i guess you just have to get on with life.

It reminds me of a story i read once, probably remembered poorly as well,
A native asked a missionary what would happen to him after death, the missionary said if he had believed in god he would go to heaven, if not he would go to hell.
He then asked what would happen if to him had he never heard about god and never had the chance to believe in him, the missionary said he would still go to heaven as he didn't know any better, the native then said, why did you tell me then.

Close enough I think, if you had never known about hell, your life would be much better, without nagging fear.

Other Comments by Katana

44. Comment #277335 by Edamus on November 3, 2008 at 12:26 pm

 avatarWow, good on him! The Phelps family is simply a nut-case, spreading hate throughout the country.

One thing I do credit them with is sharing the true message of the Bible: hate.

Other Comments by Edamus

45. Comment #277336 by ukvillafan on November 3, 2008 at 12:29 pm

 avatarTechnically, of course, as he is a religious nutjob he is "deluded" and quite definitely is mentally ill. This is, in some degree, the point of the title of Richard's book. Naturally, delusions differ in their intensity, but to believe in an interventionist sky fairy is to be deluded.

However, I suspect that is not what you meant. I do not think you can simply say that madness and not religion causes this man's behaviour. His whole entourage believe the same rubbish for a start. What is more, I think it is too easy an excuse for his violent behaviour simply to say he was/is mad. The man is just bad and his religion reinforces his need to dominate and bully.

Edited for spelling etc. (Twice!)

Other Comments by ukvillafan

46. Comment #277337 by Dhamma on November 3, 2008 at 12:31 pm

 avatarIt's interesting to read about the ex-Christians still fearing hell to some degree.

As a person never having been indoctrinated by Christianity, apart from lame attempts by my former teacher, I don't feel this fear whatsoever. After all, I am a cultural Christian (even if I hate that labelling), so I've always known about hell. But since no one ever claimed it was real, I wasn't bothered at all.

I would suppose you were taught it's such a fearful place that it's beyond belief, and therefore can't let it go.

Childhood indoctrination should be criminalized.

Other Comments by Dhamma

47. Comment #277338 by Caudimordax on November 3, 2008 at 12:35 pm

 avatarFortunately although my mother was a rabid catholic, she was also a "chinese menu" catholic who thought the pope was "misguided" on some issues (like the death penalty), and the emphasis was not on the torture of hell, but on being "cut off from god." Big whup.

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48. Comment #277339 by Goldy on November 3, 2008 at 12:36 pm

 avatarComment #277323 by Frankus1122
Weren't they all ill' The historically verifiable ones, I mean. To have a god speak to you suggests a slight mental disorder (well, maybe Kardashovel excepted - he's nice but odd)

Other Comments by Goldy

49. Comment #277340 by Oystein Elgaroy on November 3, 2008 at 12:37 pm

 avatarIn the church my parents took me to until I was ten hell was a common theme in the sermons. I can testify to the fact that it is child abuse, it has taken me a long time to get over the fear and anxiety installed in me by those vicious lies.

Other Comments by Oystein Elgaroy

50. Comment #277341 by Steve Zara on November 3, 2008 at 12:39 pm

 avatarComment #277339 by Goldy

To have a god speak to you suggests a slight mental disorder


I do hope you mean that to believe God is speaking to you suggest a slight mental disorder.

I would be rather pleased if an actual God spoke to me. I would have a bit of a problem with their claim to God-ness, though.

Other Comments by Steve Zara
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