1. Comment #282121 by neander on November 11, 2008 at 4:55 pm

The passing on of culture seems to be an important part of our evolution. Are the monkeys passing on memes' And is this the survival trait that has unfortunately led us to religion'

Other Comments by neander

2. Comment #282131 by Dhamma on November 11, 2008 at 5:08 pm

Neander:

I'd be more than surprised if it wasn't the case. They are definitely passing on memes. There was a video several months ago posted on this site where crows were passing on memes. In Japan some crows had taught themselves to use cars to crack nuts, and the behaviour was spreading (I have in mind).

Edit: Hmm.. I wasn't very clear, the crows are NOT driving cars :) They drop nuts in front of a crossing and then wait for the cars to run over the nuts and then collect their meal.

Other Comments by Dhamma

3. Comment #282138 by neander on November 11, 2008 at 5:29 pm

I'd love to see crows driving cars, lets train them. The farmer next door(') to us when I was a kid had a chimnpanzee that drove his tractor.
Sorry, almost totally off topic - but isn't it true that chimps taught sign language teach it to their kids'

Other Comments by neander

4. Comment #282141 by rod-the-farmer on November 11, 2008 at 5:34 pm

I saw an article recently on dolphins in one of those Sea World places. Their trainer somehow got across the idea she wanted them to do a trick they had never done before. After a short delay, during which two dolphins may have communicated somehow, they did a unique twisting leap, in unison, that they had never done before. Cool.

When you can look into the eyes of an animal like a dolphin, or especially a mountain gorilla, you just KNOW there is someone intelligent inside.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

5. Comment #282144 by tman on November 11, 2008 at 5:46 pm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7329182515885554944

Other Comments by tman

6. Comment #282148 by SilentX on November 11, 2008 at 5:54 pm

Why, that is a fine mustache.

Other Comments by SilentX

7. Comment #282153 by j.mills on November 11, 2008 at 6:24 pm

Was it on this site I read recently about wild dolphins learning tail-walking from their fellows that had been released from a dolphinarium? And they appeared to be doing it for fun, no other purpose having yet been discerned.

Watched tman's video link. Them crows is too clever by 'alf, you mark my woords.

Other Comments by j.mills

8. Comment #282157 by Frankus1122 on November 11, 2008 at 6:38 pm

I was thinking about humans and the rest of the animal world just yesterday. Other animals share many characteristics with us. There may be no one defining feature that makes us different from them except one: scale.
It is not the qualities that make us different but the quantity. We got on some weird exponential track and took off in a way that makes us very different from the rest of the animal species.

I do not think we are anything supernatural; I think by the power of the exponential growth of our brains we became something apart, and yet still of, the animal world. (He said as he typed on his keyboard and then scratched his bum).

Other Comments by Frankus1122

9. Comment #282160 by axelg on November 11, 2008 at 6:46 pm

And language. Scale, and language.

Other Comments by axelg

10. Comment #282164 by Frankus1122 on November 11, 2008 at 6:55 pm

Comment #282160 by axelg

I think some other animals have rudimentary forms of language. It is an area that is being studied certainly. While some claim there are fundamental differences between human and other animal 'language' others argue degree.

There is a whole field of emergence phenomena, of which language is a part. Out of relatively simple forms of communication arises something wildly complex; like our language.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

11. Comment #282165 by j.mills on November 11, 2008 at 7:01 pm

Well, you know, language isn't all it's crakjskjgj shs s;f jiifk. lajksg.

Mary Midgeley (considered accursed around here) wrote something years ago that I thought sensible. In response to What distinguishes humans from animals? she said: "Almost everything is wrong with this question." She preferred, What distinguishes humans among the animals? And added that by definition every species is unique, but not in each case because of some simplistic single feature; rather, each species is defined by a 'cluster' of attributes.

In humans, this includes: bipedalism, big brains, opposable thumbs, tool use, language, complex socialising, constant fertility, prolonged infancy, culture (ie. memes and artifacts), consciousness(?) and hairlessness. (EDIT: and descended larynx, enabling vocalisation.) Most or all of these things have been proposed by one thinker or another as 'the' characteristic that 'separates' us 'from' animals (along with more glib and less sustainable offerings, like laughter, compassion, dreams, dignity, etc). Clearly it's a bit more complicated than that.

Other Comments by j.mills

12. Comment #282168 by Frankus1122 on November 11, 2008 at 7:05 pm

Clearly it's a bit more complicated than that.

At the very least.
Just look at us. Look at all the things we do around the planet. And the stuff we are starting to do outside of our planet. We have looked to the limits of space mused over beyond the limits of space and looked into the very inner workings of sub-atomic particles.

Hairlessness.
Humph!

Other Comments by Frankus1122

13. Comment #282171 by j.mills on November 11, 2008 at 7:09 pm

Would have been harder to do all that if we had to spend hours of each day grooming, Frankus...

Other Comments by j.mills

14. Comment #282172 by Frankus1122 on November 11, 2008 at 7:18 pm

Comment #282171 by j.mills

Well, yes I see your point.

If that is you between Glass and Cohen I can see why you would think hairlessness is a big deal for us.

Most of my hair has migrated from the top of my head and now seems to be growing down my neck and onto my back.
(Apologies to any female - or male- readers out there who I have inadvertently turned on).

Other Comments by Frankus1122

15. Comment #282173 by Sarmatae1 on November 11, 2008 at 7:19 pm

Comment #282121 by neander on November 11, 2008 at 4:55 pm

The passing on of culture seems to be an important part of our evolution. Are the monkeys passing on memes' And is this the survival trait that has unfortunately led us to religion'

Monkey religion, now that would be interesting. I wonder where the prehensile tail would come into it?

Funny clip
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/83793/march-28-2007/the-word---monkey-business

Other Comments by Sarmatae1

16. Comment #282176 by Brian English on November 11, 2008 at 7:26 pm

And added that by definition every species is unique, but not in each case because of some simplistic single feature; rather, each species is defined by a 'cluster' of attributes.

Great, so species is like an inviolable kind? She's a dill. There are many animals that sometimes have been classed as the same species, and sometimes as different species. Species is not fixed and set. It's an arbitrary cataloging (based on certain criteria such as reproducible offspring, location, etc) that humans do, not nature.

Other Comments by Brian English

17. Comment #282193 by Wosret on November 11, 2008 at 8:50 pm

That prick.

Other Comments by Wosret

18. Comment #282281 by Ian Barley on November 12, 2008 at 12:19 am

"And language. Scale, and language"

And an almost fanatical devotion to the pope. Scale, and language, and an almost fanatical devotion to the pope. :)

The attempt to seperate human apes from the other apes (and all other species) seems to have moved each time the previous test was proven false. The one that seems to be sticking as far as I know is the ability to use tools to make tools. So when the first chimp is observed using a rock to flatten the end of a twig so that it is more effective at extracting termites from their holes, the species seperatists will have to come up with another one.

Other Comments by Ian Barley

19. Comment #282298 by rod-the-farmer on November 12, 2008 at 2:08 am

Re 11. Comment #282165 by j.mills
Well, you know, language isn't all it's crakjskjgj shs s;f jiifk. lajksg.

Mary Midgeley (considered accursed around here) wrote something years ago that I thought sensible. In response to What distinguishes humans from animals? she said: "Almost everything is wrong with this question." She preferred, What distinguishes humans among the animals? And added that by definition every species is unique, but not in each case because of some simplistic single feature; rather, each species is defined by a 'cluster' of attributes.

In humans, this includes: bipedalism, big brains, opposable thumbs, tool use, language, complex socialising, constant fertility, prolonged infancy, culture (ie. memes and artifacts), consciousness(?) and hairlessness. (EDIT: and descended larynx, enabling vocalisation.)

Chimpanzees, orangutans and gorillas all have opposable thumbs. We humans are not alone in this. This from the National Science Teachers Association site....

http://www3.nsta.org/main/news/stories/science_and_children.php?news_story_ID=49036

Interesting that when I tried to search that site for any mention of "evolution" or "creationism" I got no hits.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

20. Comment #282302 by Szymanowski on November 12, 2008 at 2:21 am

Using tools is trivial, plenty of species do it!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4296606.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4083517.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6356773.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6948446.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6387611.stm

rod-the-farmer: wasn't there recently a case in which a human-trained (released) dolphin was found teaching wild dolphins to "tail-walk"? Ah yes...:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7570097.stm

Ant-colony education:
http://www.bbcwildlifemagazine.com/newsread.asp?id=17480

'Consciousness' is a whole can of worms... but 'self-awareness' is something that can be measured, and definitely not limited to humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition

Other Comments by Szymanowski

21. Comment #282303 by Chris Davis on November 12, 2008 at 2:27 am

With all respect due to Primates, don't take your eyes off those birds...

There was a clip - on that highbrow scientific documentary show 'You've Been Framed' - showing a seabird (a gannet, perhaps?) fishing. With Bait.

Stolen bait: it was nicking biscuit crumbs and the like from the side of a jetty, taking them over to the water and dropping them in. Wait. Up comes a fish. Zap! Dinner.

Other Comments by Chris Davis

22. Comment #282320 by Muetze on November 12, 2008 at 3:13 am

narrator: "Monkeys have been leaving the trees for millions of years, but we are the only ape to do so."

Uh ... Gorrilas? Chimpanzees? I hadn't realised that those were all tree-bound.

Other Comments by Muetze

23. Comment #282323 by Ian Barley on November 12, 2008 at 3:15 am

Szymanowski - "Using tools is trivial, plenty of species do it!"

But none of these (or any other example that I am aware of) is of any other species than man using a tool to make a tool. If the article which reports on spear use in chimps had revealed them using a sharp flint to sharpen the sticks then that would have been different but they are not at that level of abstraction - yet.

The main point for me is not what the supposed defining difference is but that every time it is shown to be breached, the specieists invent a new one.

Other Comments by Ian Barley

24. Comment #282348 by rod-the-farmer on November 12, 2008 at 4:10 am

"the god of the species gaps".....

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

25. Comment #282359 by CaptainMandate on November 12, 2008 at 4:43 am

Gorillas in the wild have demonstrated a concept of the abstract by using a stick to test the depth of water as they wade through.

I've often thought that religion could arise in any animal culture. recently i read that groups of elephants who include older matriachs tend to survive droughts better. the theory being that with their great memory, having an old mother in the herd is useful as she's likely to remember surviving a drought in the past so may well know where to go to find food and water.

elephants have also been observed showing an understanding of death by carrying the remains of ancestors they find (bones and tusks).

now it seems to me that there is religion evolving in that situation. knowing an old parent can help in times of trouble, could they be practicing some sort of prayer by digging up bones etc'

Other Comments by CaptainMandate

26. Comment #282360 by Dustin14 on November 12, 2008 at 4:45 am

I have a torrent of this episode would it be o.k. to post a link to it here?

Other Comments by Dustin14

27. Comment #282370 by dochmbi on November 12, 2008 at 5:18 am

@Dustin14: I don't think that will be necessary. It's available on both mininova and demonoid. Anyone who wants it is surely capable of finding it themselves.

Other Comments by dochmbi

28. Comment #282384 by Ishruul on November 12, 2008 at 6:08 am

Get your hands offa me, you damn, dirty apes!

I can'T see why people are so reluctant to accept we are monkeys. I mean, we aren't that much different. Why be ashame, we love sex as much has any bonobos monkeys!

All glory to the bonobos for being a great reflection of our society!

Edit: Also babboons, for the bloodlust and violence!

Other Comments by Ishruul

29. Comment #282449 by Border Collie on November 12, 2008 at 8:09 am

'We can see ourselves in their faces, our nature in their actions.' Well, we can, but the churchies can't. I think it's all rather noble to have descended. Now, we just need to live up to our nobility by protecting and preserving our primate cousins.

Other Comments by Border Collie

30. Comment #282460 by CaptainMandate on November 12, 2008 at 8:33 am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2008/nov/12/chimp-tiger-cubs

another clever ape...

Other Comments by CaptainMandate

31. Comment #282496 by Philster61 on November 12, 2008 at 9:41 am

Lets hope they dont evolve in to religion.Thatd really throw the xians into fits now wouldnt it.
ALthough I think chimps would be too smart to adopt it.Although I do wonder if they have any sort of a belief system.

Other Comments by Philster61

32. Comment #282497 by j.mills on November 12, 2008 at 9:41 am

I said:

by definition every species is unique, but not in each case because of some simplistic single feature; rather, each species is defined by a 'cluster' of attributes.

- which I didn't think would be at all controversial. But then Brian said:

Species is not fixed and set. It's an arbitrary cataloging (based on certain criteria such as reproducible offspring, location, etc) that humans do, not nature.

I don't see how that contradicts what I said, though Brian seemed to think it did.

And Rod points out that other creatures have opposable thumbs, and other people point out that animals use tools. This is the point I was making: simply that no one characteristic can be used to 'separate' us, but that no two species share all the same attributes; and a package of a few attributes may suffice to identify a species uniquely. Seems almost tautological to me, even if it was Midgeley I was drawing from!

Other Comments by j.mills

33. Comment #282505 by Dhamma on November 12, 2008 at 9:59 am

To be fair to the believers you obviously do need a lot of intelligence to believe in an abstract entity, it's just that some have evolved even more intelligence.

Other Comments by Dhamma

34. Comment #282512 by Lucas on November 12, 2008 at 10:26 am

Can't wait to see this episode. Thought this was appropriate:


Right In Two by Tool

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

Don't these talking monkeys know that Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys
Where there's one you're bound to divide it right in two.

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys.
Give them thumbs, they forge a blade,
And where there's one they're bound to divide it right in two.

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys.
Give them thumbs, they make a club to beat their brother down.
How they've survived so misguided is a mystery.
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability
To lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.

Gotta divide it all right in two.

Fight till they die over sun, over sky,
They fight till they die over sea, over air,
They fight till they die over blood, over love,
They fight till they die over words, polarizing.

Angels on the sideline again,
Benched along with patience and reason.
Angels on the sideline again,
Wondering where this tug of war will end.

Gotta divide it all right in two.

Other Comments by Lucas

35. Comment #282765 by polestar on November 12, 2008 at 5:33 pm

On the potential for religion or belief systems among non-human animals, there was some work done showing that superstition develops among many animals, right down to pigeons (as Comment #282303 by Chris Davis says, "don't take your eyes off those birds").

I don't have the reference, I'm afraid, but superstition was simply defined as belief that doing something would cause an (unrelated) outcome, because that outcome had followed that action (accidentally) before (the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy). This is a fundamental process in the development of human superstition, which language helped turn into a system, called religion: I burnt these entrails last week and it rained yesterday, therefore if I burn more entrails today it will rain soon again. If I have a bit of an eye for weather patterns, I can become a witch doctor and get free food and virgins - who could resist?

Other Comments by polestar

36. Comment #282836 by Simonw on November 12, 2008 at 7:48 pm

"This is the point I was making: simply that no one characteristic can be used to 'separate' us, but that no two species share all the same attributes; and a package of a few attributes may suffice to identify a species uniquely. Seems almost tautological to me, even if it was Midgeley I was drawing from!"

Yes, and the point was well made. Although the questioning of the borders is not mad. The characteristics you describe distinguish humans from other extant species, but we share many (all?) of those characters with the species from which we are descended.

This is the most interesting question; why we succeeded where other closely related human species failed. I suspect it is in part luck, but others have argued we look like a domesticated breed (smaller brains compared to some other hominids for example).

Why also human-like species spent such a long time in Africa making axes, and then suddenly decided what was needed was a mobile phone that can surf the Internet.

The questions the clip raised to me were. Why do we think we are a savannah species when our infants are born without the ability to run, and we aren't exactly naturally well defended. Island dwelling ancestors perhaps? Similarly if these apes are savannah dwelling why aren't they more bipedal.

Other Comments by Simonw

37. Comment #284461 by Wosret on November 15, 2008 at 8:30 am

I watched this the other day, it was astonishing. I am always quick to say that other animals are underestimated, but I was shocked at much of what I saw in this documentary. I had no idea.

Other Comments by Wosret

38. Comment #286019 by Enlightenme.. on November 18, 2008 at 1:04 am

#35,
Pavlov's dogs became Buddhists?

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

39. Comment #286232 by rodentfuel on November 18, 2008 at 11:20 am

Nature is a great program. I've watched this episode two times already and it's still sitting on the TIVO. It reminds us how much we really are like a bunch of monkeys... or more correctly - primates.

One tidbit that I found interesting was the fact that some of the infants were brightly colored making them more vulnerable but at the same time more attractive and more likely to be cared for. I wonder how that particular characteristic evolved'

Other Comments by rodentfuel

40. Comment #289206 by GBart on November 23, 2008 at 9:50 am

I get to show people a human brain next to a monkey brain and talk about the evidence for human evolution at work. I love my job.

Other Comments by GBart

41. Comment #290559 by ADePSP on November 25, 2008 at 12:54 pm

WHAT AN AWSOME PROGRAM...!!!

I just watched it and normaly would upload to YouTube so you US guys get to see it but YouTube spanked me for that recently...

How people cannot see the humanity (nay, monkanity) and the obvious relationship we share is tantamount to mental blindness...

I don't think I stopped smiling for the entire program. I love these little people...

Other Comments by ADePSP