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Wednesday, November 12, 2008 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments |

Document In a Novel Theory of Mental Disorders, Parents' Genes Are in Competition

by NY Times

Thanks to Arielle for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/health/research/11brain.html?_r=1&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&oref=slogin

Two scientists, drawing on their own powers of observation and a creative reading of recent genetic findings, have published a sweeping theory of brain development that would change the way mental disorders like autism and schizophrenia are understood.

The theory emerged in part from thinking about events other than mutations that can change gene behavior. And it suggests entirely new avenues of research, which, even if they prove the theory to be flawed, are likely to provide new insights into the biology of mental disease.

At a time when the search for the genetic glitches behind brain disorders has become mired in uncertain and complex findings, the new idea provides psychiatry with perhaps its grandest working theory since Freud, and one that is grounded in work at the forefront of science. The two researchers — Bernard Crespi, a biologist at Simon Fraser University in Canada, and Christopher Badcock, a sociologist at the London School of Economics, who are both outsiders to the field of behavior genetics — have spelled out their theory in a series of recent journal articles.

“The reality, and I think both of the authors would agree, is that many of the details of their theory are going to be wrong; and it is, at this point, just a theory,” said Dr. Matthew Belmonte, a neuroscientist at Cornell University. “But the idea is plausible. And it gives researchers a great opportunity for hypothesis generation, which I think can shake up the field in good ways.”

Their idea is, in broad outline, straightforward. Dr. Crespi and Dr. Badcock propose that an evolutionary tug of war between genes from the father’s sperm and the mother’s egg can, in effect, tip brain development in one of two ways. A strong bias toward the father pushes a developing brain along the autistic spectrum, toward a fascination with objects, patterns, mechanical systems, at the expense of social development. A bias toward the mother moves the growing brain along what the researchers call the psychotic spectrum, toward hypersensitivity to mood, their own and others’. This, according to the theory, increases a child’s risk of developing schizophrenia later on, as well as mood problems like bipolar disorder and depression.

In short: autism and schizophrenia represent opposite ends of a spectrum that includes most, if not all, psychiatric and developmental brain disorders. The theory has no use for psychiatry’s many separate categories for disorders, and it would give genetic findings an entirely new dimension.

“The empirical implications are absolutely huge,” Dr. Crespi said in a phone interview. “If you get a gene linked to autism, for instance, you’d want to look at that same gene for schizophrenia; if it’s a social brain gene, then it would be expected to have opposite effects on these disorders, whether gene expression was turned up or turned down.”

The theory leans heavily on the work of David Haig of Harvard. It was Dr. Haig who argued in the 1990s that pregnancy was in part a biological struggle for resources between the mother and unborn child. On one side, natural selection should favor mothers who limit the nutritional costs of pregnancy and have more offspring; on the other, it should also favor fathers whose offspring maximize the nutrients they receive during gestation, setting up a direct conflict.

The evidence that this struggle is being waged at the level of individual genes is accumulating, if mostly circumstantial. For example, the fetus inherits from both parents a gene called IGF2, which promotes growth. But too much growth taxes the mother, and in normal development her IGF2 gene is chemically marked, or “imprinted,” and biologically silenced. If her gene is active, it causes a disorder of overgrowth, in which the fetus’s birth weight swells, on average, to 50 percent above normal.

Biologists call this gene imprinting an epigenetic, or “on-genetic,” effect, meaning that it changes the behavior of the gene without altering its chemical composition. It is not a matter of turning a gene on or off, which cells do in the course of normal development. Instead it is a matter of muffling a gene, for instance, with a chemical marker that makes it hard for the cell to read the genetic code; or altering the shape of the DNA molecule, or what happens to the proteins it produces. To illustrate how such genetic reshaping can give rise to behavioral opposites — the yin and yang that their theory proposes — Dr. Crespi and Dr. Badcock point to a remarkable group of children who are just that: opposites, as different temperamentally as Snoopy and Charlie Brown, as a lively Gaugin and a brooding Goya.

Those with the genetic disorder called Angelman syndrome typically have a jerky gait, appear unusually happy and have difficulty communicating. Those born with a genetic problem known as Prader-Willi syndrome often are placid, compliant and as youngsters low maintenance.

Yet these two disorders, which turn up in about one of 10,000 newborns, stem from disruptions of the same genetic region on chromosome 15. If the father’s genes dominate in this location, the child develops Angelman syndrome; if the mother’s do, the result is Prader-Willi syndrome, as Dr. Haig and others have noted. The former is associated with autism, and the latter with mood problems and psychosis later on — just as the new theory predicts.

Emotional problems like depression, anxiety and bipolar disorder, seen through this lens, appear on Mom’s side of the teeter-totter, with schizophrenia, while Asperger’s syndrome and other social deficits are on Dad’s.

It was Dr. Badcock who noticed that some problems associated with autism, like a failure to meet another’s gaze, are direct contrasts to those found in people with schizophrenia, who often believe they are being watched. Where children with autism appear blind to others’ thinking and intentions, people with schizophrenia see intention and meaning everywhere, in their delusions. The idea expands on the “extreme male brain” theory of autism proposed by Dr. Simon Baron-Cohen of Cambridge.

“Think of the grandiosity in schizophrenia, how some people think that they are Jesus, or Napoleon, or omnipotent,” Dr. Crespi said, “and then contrast this with the underdeveloped sense of self in autism. Autistic kids often talk about themselves in the third person.”

Such observations and biological evidence are hardly enough to overturn current thinking about disorders as distinct as autism and schizophrenia, experts agree. “I think his work is often brilliant,” Dr. Stephen Scherer, of the University of Toronto and the Hospital for Sick Children, said by e-mail message of Dr. Crespi. At the same time, Dr. Scherer added, “For autism there will not be one unifying theory but perhaps for a proportion of families there are underlying common variants” of genes that together cause the disorder.

The theory also does not fit all of the various quirks of autism and schizophrenia on flip sides of the same behavioral coin. The father of biological psychiatry, Emil Kraepelin, in the late 1800s made a distinction between mood problems, like depression and bipolar disorder, and the thought distortions of schizophrenia — a distinction that, to most psychiatrists, still holds up. Many people with schizophrenia, moreover, show little emotion; they would seem to be off the psychosis spectrum altogether, as the new theory describes it.

But experts familiar with their theory say that the two scientists have, at minimum, infused the field with a shot of needed imagination and demonstrated the power of thinking outside the gene. For just as a gene can carry a mark from its parent of origin, so it can be imprinted by that parent’s own experience.

The study of such markers should have a “significant impact on our understanding of mental health conditions,” said Dr. Bhismadev Chakrabarti, of the Autism Research Center at the University of Cambridge, “as, in some ways, they represent the first environmental influence on the expression of the genes.”

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1. Comment #282634 by Border Collie on November 12, 2008 at 1:22 pm

 avatarExplains my little brother ...

Other Comments by Border Collie

2. Comment #282640 by NewEnglandBob on November 12, 2008 at 1:32 pm

 avatarSimilar article in this month's Discover magazine:

Mom and Dad Are Fighting in Your Genes—and in Your Brain

http://discovermagazine.com/2008/dec/10-mom-and-dad-are-fighting-in-your-genes-and-your-brain

From the Discover article:
Scientists have searched for the genetic basis of the two syndromes and have tracked most cases of both to defects on the same spot of the human genome, a stretch of DNA on chromosome 15. Which disease a child gets depends on which parent’s chromosome 15 carries the defect (every person’s cells contain two genetic copies, one from the mother and one from the father). Prader-Willi syndrome is caused by a mutation in a father’s genes that deletes a chunk of DNA on chromosome 15. Angelman syndrome is associated with a mutation on the mother’s chromosome 15.


Other Comments by NewEnglandBob

3. Comment #282644 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 1:35 pm

 avatarSounds very gendered, which immediately causes me to be suspicious, since most people are raised with very polarized views of gender that aren't necessarily based on objective fact.

Has science really established that female brains are more social and males are more mechanically inclined?

Other Comments by Eshto

4. Comment #282653 by j.mills on November 12, 2008 at 1:57 pm

 avatarImaginative. Neat. Pretty much bound to be wrong then. :)

Other Comments by j.mills

5. Comment #282678 by jenlaferriere on November 12, 2008 at 3:07 pm

 avatarLike the article says, it's a needed shot of imagination that will bring on new research and further innovation. This is speculative and as the author points out, most assumptions they make will prove to be wrong.

Where would we be without ideas, and without those who are willing to test hings out?

Other Comments by jenlaferriere

6. Comment #282687 by Contrivanced on November 12, 2008 at 3:32 pm

 avatarI wonder if Sara Palin is going to read this in 'all' of her magazines and newspapers'
Man I need to move on...

Other Comments by Contrivanced

7. Comment #282696 by King of NH on November 12, 2008 at 3:45 pm

 avatar
Sounds very gendered, which immediately causes me to be suspicious, since most people are raised with very polarized views of gender that aren't necessarily based on objective fact.

Has science really established that female brains are more social and males are more mechanically inclined?


The article doesn't discuss any such gendered stereotypes, though. The article deals at the genetic level. By the proposals suggested, each fully formed human would have an equal chance to lie anywhere on the spectrum, since we all have .5 father DNA and .5 mother.

Male pattern hair loss is also attributed to the female genes. I always here I have my mother to thank for my bald head, and looking at my father (full head of hair) and his father and brothers and cousins (the same) and comparing them to the shiny heads of my mothers family, I have reason to give the idea value. Yet my mother, as most people would expect, does not have a quickly receding hairline noticeable in her early 20's.

Just because the gene tends to pass along the female line does not, in any way, mean that women are more likely to express than gene.

Other Comments by King of NH

8. Comment #282697 by jabber on November 12, 2008 at 3:46 pm

 avatarI.too am suspicious of this (if not a little unnerved).If not discussed appropriately in some quarters, it may act as an entree into the blame game, again. Also, i wonder how it connects to the idea that 'masculinity' and 'femininity' are useful, artificial social constructs. It reminds me of the debates about wether or not homsoexuals are 'women in the wrong body' or effeminate males or a third gender etc etc. This would also be attractive to funda-mentalists re Genesis "Man and woman he created he them"...rather than man and women created WE them". If any basis in science so much as hints at the possibility of a scapegoat for social ills, you can bet that the 'popular press' and right wing politcians will seize on the opportunity to exploit it to those ends.

Other Comments by jabber

9. Comment #282713 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 4:26 pm

 avatar@ 7. and 8.:

Yeah I see what you're saying King of NH. Maybe I'm just nervous because of what jabber points out, that lay people and especially social conservatives tend to misunderstand (or intentionally skew) things like this and assume it means men and women inherently think differently, thus are better suited to certain roles and occupations, thus things like women having careers and people of the same sex marrying is unnatural, and so on and so forth.

You can bet if James Dobson finds out about this study he'll take it as evidence that children need both a mother and a father, lest their impressionable brains tip too much toward one gender. "Two lesbians raising a child will give the child schizophrenia! Two gay men will give it autism!"

But if we are just talking about genetics, then I agree it's interesting. Now I just want to know more about how valid it is to make a scale of mental illness with autism on one end and schizophrenia on the other. Are there any types of mental illness we can come up with off the bat that don't fit along that spectrum?

Other Comments by Eshto

10. Comment #282717 by Lemniscate on November 12, 2008 at 4:37 pm

 avatarIt's not "just a theory", it's just a hypothetical model.

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11. Comment #282734 by jabber on November 12, 2008 at 4:58 pm

 avatarunfortunately - spectrums (spectra?) are all the rage at the moment. I work as a care manager in a home caring for people with autism,learning difficulties and challenging behaviour (alothough, these are not mutually esclusive). The philosphy seems very spectrum oriented, many (most/all) of our service users are somewhere on teh autistic spectrum from, at one end, mild learning diffculties to Asperger Syndrome up to severe autism adn learning difficulties. Parents are often full of guilt already due to media misrepresenation about teh perils of smoking during pregnancy/drinking during pregnanacy - even being a 'single mother' (can you beleive it? That was becasue of Govt policy in the 80s-90s - so Eshto, its already been attempted.) It is common practice to blackmail people into behaviours that fit one particular poltical/religious agenda at the expense of those whos lives are already painful enough. Proves the old adage "NOTHING is sacred". Everything is fair game and up for grabs where the powerful are concerned. Also, let's not forget that it isnt teh autism thats the 'problem', nor the 'autistic' - it's how these people are accomodated and treated by society that casues them most grief. There is an argument that autism/LD and aspergers are perfectly valid 'personality types' that are not easy to accomodate.... i am suspicious of reearch that focuses on finding a cause for anything that may not, in itself, be a problem for anyone excpet the authorities.... one of our staff memebers, for instance, 'has' Aspergers Syndrome and functions extrememly effectively in his post (and it isnt an exploited menial position, either). When we try to identify a gene for something, it presupposes that the 'something' isa problem to be eradicated (gay gene, black gene, criminal gene.....jewish gene/blonde gene ...you get my point, i'm sure)

Other Comments by jabber

12. Comment #282776 by notsobad on November 12, 2008 at 5:49 pm

 avatar
men and women inherently think differently

They do in many cases.

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13. Comment #282785 by Eshto on November 12, 2008 at 6:03 pm

 avatar@notsobad:

They do in many cases because they are socialized to. How much of it is genetic or otherwise biologically determined is, as far as I know, far from settled.

It reminds me of a study I read about that said supposedly men navigate with their sense of direction, a natural internal compass; and women use landmarks; and they claimed gay men were in between.

So now when I'm driving I can't help but think about how I'm navigating. ZOMG did I just use a landmark to find that street? I am such a fag! Oh wait, I totally found that building on my own with no landmarks. Heh heh, I'm so butch.

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14. Comment #282791 by jabber on November 12, 2008 at 6:26 pm

 avatar@ Eshto -

I always ask a policeman!

What does that make me? (rhetorical)

Other Comments by jabber

15. Comment #282794 by Cartomancer on November 12, 2008 at 6:38 pm

 avatarI am in no position to comment on the genetic side of this research, but my own personal experience inclines me strongly to doubt its findings - or at least their universal applicability. Why? Because over the last four years I have been diagnosed with both mild autistic tendencies and manic depression. Well, they thought it was manic depression to start with, turns out it's just plain old depression and I missed out on the manic bit altogether, worst luck.

From the autistic side I seem to have derived my obsession with pattern, order and propriety. I even used to make sure my shopping bills in the supermarket added up to a round number of pounds, preferably divisible by ten, and that I ate my food in a strict order, item by item. I currently have two calendars hanging on my wall, one either side of my shelf, because it seemed deeply wrong to have only one and thus unbalance the symmetry. No sooner did the second one go up than I felt the need for something in the middle too. I also seem to have come off with very low self-esteem, mild sociophobia, the inability to meet people's eyes and the inability to work out what other people are thinking. I try to model them from empirical data rather than having any intrinsic understanding of their thought processes.

On the other hand, however, the psychotic spectrum hand, I constantly feel like I am being watched, judged and appraised by everyone around me. I am desperate for social acceptance and praise from others, but feel terribly embarrassed when I eventually get it. I tend to slip into long, spiralling pits of despair and pessimism too, especially when my attempts at socialising go wrong. I have the low self esteem of autism, but combined with a less-than-edifying narcissistic sense that I should, intrinsically, be superior to everyone else, that I deserve better simply because of who I am. The result of this is that I despair equally about how much I have wasted my inherent superior potential and how terribly selfish and arrogant I am for thinking that way in the first place.

So how would this study address my condition? Did the expression of my mother's genes win out in one part of my brain and that of my father's genes in another? Does it matter that my twin brother, who shares my genome, does not seem to exhibit either problem to anything like the same degree?

Other Comments by Cartomancer

16. Comment #282795 by brianjames on November 12, 2008 at 6:39 pm

 avatarIt seems intuitively correct however as we know, nothing can be taken on face value. By the same token I believe it's worthwile research. Finding genetic causes for behavioural anomolies does not automatically suggest a eugenic motive. It all adds to our greater understanding of the brain.

Other Comments by brianjames

17. Comment #282799 by ~manic-depressive on November 12, 2008 at 6:43 pm

 avatar
It's not "just a theory", it's just a hypothetical model.


Exactly. Why is it that journalists almost invariably make basic errors like this when they report news on science?

As for the model itself, I have to agree with those who said that it is interesting, innovative and probably wrong! Nevertheless, the whole field of psychiatry is in need of an overhaul and I welcome fresh ideas.

As some wit has said, anyone who visits a psychiatrist needs their head examined.

Other Comments by ~manic-depressive

18. Comment #282805 by jabber on November 12, 2008 at 6:54 pm

 avatar@ brian james

I think my unease is my awareness that many people confuse aquiring information/data with being 'educated'. Giving a cave-man a Dunhill lighter is a recipe for conflagration.

I have nothing against any kind of research, per se - just it's application, and who will be applying it, and to what ends. But i think that's a failry standard and universal concern.

@cartomancer
I'm getting treatment for depression, and i recognise some of the things you mention - but its also important to distinguish between traits and symptoms. I recognised that in a depression, I feel I have no control over even the smallest things and events, and I too became quite OCD about how my environment should satisfy my expectations. I regularly rearranged all the furniture in my room with great gusto - then became so exhausted by the effort to control everything that I immediately went into a deeper depressive state, withdrew from the world I desperately wanted to be a part of, blamed others for not being as intelligent as I was about how I felt..etc ect... but these are/were temprorary 'affects', not permananent and pervasive symptoms of something more catastrophic. If you think you deserve better, you probably do - and there's no point beating yourself up about it.Take heart.

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19. Comment #282813 by Steve Zara on November 12, 2008 at 7:11 pm

Comment #282794 by Cartomancer

PM for you, in which I empathise, and admit to my own significant OCD.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

20. Comment #282822 by Titania on November 12, 2008 at 7:30 pm

 avatar15. Comment #282794 by Cartomancer

I also seem to have come off with very low self-esteem


Whoa, Cartomancer, you just rocked my world. You are one of the most erudite, intelligent people I have ever (what word to use as I don’t know you and I have not interacted with you, how about….) read.

I hope the praise you receive on this site from such extremely bright people has helped you to overcome these feelings.

Your posts are a joy to read and humorous and thoughtful and educational and….you get the picture. I hope you will come to our rd.net meeting in Dublin in July so I can meet you. It would be a tremendous thrill and honor for me.

Other Comments by Titania

21. Comment #282828 by jabber on November 12, 2008 at 7:35 pm

 avatar@cartomancer re Titania's comment.....

seconded!

Other Comments by jabber

22. Comment #282831 by Border Collie on November 12, 2008 at 7:44 pm

 avatarCarto ... You sound perfectly normal to me. Who among us hasn't experienced many of the same feelings/perceptions? It's all a matter of degree anyway. And, you're quite capable of talking about yourself. It really only gets into the troublesome realm when you can't see it any longer. I worked in this area a long time and have seen the entire range. I read almost all of your posts ... and learn much.

Other Comments by Border Collie

23. Comment #282833 by Layla Nasreddin on November 12, 2008 at 7:46 pm

 avatar
Their idea is, in broad outline, straightforward. Dr. Crespi and Dr. Badcock propose that an evolutionary tug of war between genes from the father’s sperm and the mother’s egg can, in effect, tip brain development in one of two ways. A strong bias toward the father pushes a developing brain along the autistic spectrum, toward a fascination with objects, patterns, mechanical systems, at the expense of social development. A bias toward the mother moves the growing brain along what the researchers call the psychotic spectrum, toward hypersensitivity to mood, their own and others’. This, according to the theory, increases a child’s risk of developing schizophrenia later on, as well as mood problems like bipolar disorder and depression.


Uuuh...what if you have (a lot of elements of) both? *baffled* I guess there's a lot of reasons why this is still in the "early hypothesis" stage...

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

24. Comment #282837 by Cartomancer on November 12, 2008 at 7:53 pm

 avatarThat's the thing about low self-esteem you see - however much one is praised and lauded, it all rings hollow. In fact it often ends up feeling quite embarrassing. What you're actually thinking is "if only they realised that I'm not worthy of all this praise, that I'm really just a useless fraud. I hope nobody finds out, just think how angry they'll be when they do". The more lavish the praise, the less you feel worthy of it and the less comfort it provides you. Of course, it doesn't work the other way round. If people criticise you, or don't praise you as much as you are used to, then clearly they've realised the truth and are acting accordingly. Poor reviews just confirm what you always suspected, good ones merely convey the relief that you still haven't been rumbled yet.

The best way I can think of to describe the condition is this. You fear failure tremendously, more than anything else in the world, particularly being recognised and branded as a failure by others. But success does not bring with it a comparable high to the low that failure brings. You don't rejoice that you have succeeded, you merely breathe a sigh of relief that you haven't failed. When the dust clears and everything is over you have then to contend with the possibility that you might fail next time and this brief respite will have been for naught.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

25. Comment #282841 by jabber on November 12, 2008 at 8:03 pm

 avatar@cartomancer

Yes. It plays havoc with relationships, too. You meet someone, they like you - because they like you, they must be idiots, so you have to dump them...if they truly 'see' you and challenge you, there's a certain amount of masochistic pleasure in at last 'being seen for what you are' - but they have to go, too - becasue they 'know', and if you feel like a fraud, being 'known' is unbearable because all there is to know is 'wrong, unimpressive and unacceptable'. We want to be recognised for our talents/abilties, and when recognition seems imminent - we either sabotage it, or devalue it and those who offer it.
We know its a delusion - but then, all that means is that we can add 'deluded' to our expanding directory of failings.

Other Comments by jabber

26. Comment #282842 by Frankus1122 on November 12, 2008 at 8:05 pm

 avatarCartomancer,

This made me laugh:

I constantly feel like I am being watched, judged and appraised by everyone around me. I am desperate for social acceptance and praise from others, but feel terribly embarrassed when I eventually get it. I tend to slip into long, spiralling pits of despair and pessimism too, especially when my attempts at socialising go wrong. I have the low self esteem of autism, but combined with a less-than-edifying narcissistic sense that I should, intrinsically, be superior to everyone else, that I deserve better simply because of who I am. The result of this is that I despair equally about how much I have wasted my inherent superior potential and how terribly selfish and arrogant I am for thinking that way in the first place.


I laughed because I said to myself, "What's wrong with that? How is he able to describe me so accurately?"

As others have said we all have our self doubts and self recriminations.
Not to embarrass you further, but you know your posts are the best, right?

On a tangential anecdotal note:

There was a guy who checked out groceries at the local health food store that always translated the bill total into a baseball statistic. For example, if the total was $7.14, he would tell you that was the number of home runs Babe Ruth hit in his career. And he did it instantly. I thought it was kind of cool.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

27. Comment #282846 by Steve Zara on November 12, 2008 at 8:14 pm

Comment #282837 by Cartomancer

The solution to your problem is to apply scepticism. Who are you to judge your own failure? You have to rely on others. Who are you to judge your own success? Again, that is not up to you. I believe I can say without fear of contradiction that your posts are witty and intelligent and bring great pleasure to readers of this site. And, you are in no position to deny that.

I would go even further. When I see a post from you, it gives me a thrill. I know I am going to get educated. Not just in the use of language, but in some aspect of culture or history. Again, you are in no position to deny that I enjoy your posts.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

28. Comment #282850 by Frankus1122 on November 12, 2008 at 8:20 pm

 avatar
When I see a post from you, it gives me a thrill. I know I am going to get educated. Not just in the use of language, but in some aspect of culture or history. Again, you are in no position to deny that I enjoy your posts.


Me too.

When I scan through the 'Latest Comments' section and I see a Cartomancer post I get a thrill of excitement. Like Pavlov's dogs, the pleasure centre in my brain starts to activate in anticipation.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

29. Comment #282883 by Cartomancer on November 12, 2008 at 8:57 pm

 avatarAww, shucks, I don't know what to say...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

30. Comment #282884 by Layla Nasreddin on November 12, 2008 at 8:58 pm

 avatarComment #282837 by Cartomancer

Wow, Cartomancer, you've exactly summed up my feelings, as well! And I must add to everybody else's words of encouragement -- you're about ten times smarter than I am and I too look forward to reading your posts, which are always well-written, well-thought-out, and very informative. Keep up the good work!

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

31. Comment #282920 by jo5ef on November 12, 2008 at 9:47 pm

Guys, I know what you are saying but perhaps you need to try and resist the self analysis/introspection a bit and get out and partay...
Some of the folks on this forum remind me a lot of this Onion article:http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28174

Other Comments by jo5ef

32. Comment #282956 by epeeist on November 13, 2008 at 12:20 am

 avatarComment #282822 by Titania

Whoa, Cartomancer, you just rocked my world. You are one of the most erudite, intelligent people I have ever (what word to use as I don’t know you and I have not interacted with you, how about….) read.
At the risk of further lowering Cartomancer's esteem could I also add that, having met him, he is also incredibly funny.

Other Comments by epeeist

33. Comment #282962 by Jiten on November 13, 2008 at 12:45 am

 avatarI too want to say that I love Cartomancer´s posts. He writes so so brilliantly.

Other Comments by Jiten

34. Comment #282963 by Baron Scarpia on November 13, 2008 at 12:47 am

 avatar1) At the risk of embarrassing him further, I'd like to add that I always enjoy Cartomancer's posts as well.

2) Cartomancer, I can't pretend that I've been through anything like you have. Nevertheless, your posts about self-esteem, fear of social situations, fear of failure... it's all rather recognisable. Particularly the difficulty in working out what other people are thinking; it leads to rather a lot of paranoia.

After a certain point I just throw my hands up in the air and say 'bugger it'.

Other Comments by Baron Scarpia

35. Comment #282964 by Jiten on November 13, 2008 at 12:48 am

 avatarTitiana

I hope you will come to our rd.net meeting in Dublin in July


When is this taking place? Sounds interesting. I might come.

Other Comments by Jiten

36. Comment #282967 by phil rimmer on November 13, 2008 at 1:00 am

 avatar
having met him, he is also incredibly funny.


Absolutely. Centre stage he held a whole group of us in thrall. The effect was that of a Stephen Fry with added "bottom".

A new Carto post is always a thrill. His beautifully constructed posts always manage to break new ground, and to my repeated surprise, tell me how I want to think and feel about a topic. He is my most trusted supplier of memes.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

37. Comment #282969 by Laurie Fraser on November 13, 2008 at 1:24 am

 avatarCarto - you are a legend on this forum. Get used to the accolades, mate; they are well deserved. In Australia we have an acute therapy for your problem: we say "Wake up to yourself." Sorry if this sounds insensitive, but you are a hell of a bloke, and have no right to wallow in self-pity. Part of our sense of self is the sense of what others think about us; I, for one, think you're a champion.

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

38. Comment #282971 by AllanW on November 13, 2008 at 1:32 am

 avatarI refuse to join in with this rampant ego-stroking of Cartomancer. Yes of course he is erudite, convincing, learned, interesting, witty, good-company and thought provoking; anyone can see that from his posts and, as I have had the privilege of meeting him I can vouch for, in person.

But that is not the salient point; he won't believe us when we tell him. And if he does, then it is only right in his mind for us to see him this way. So stop it, all of you. Stop it now :)

Or have I read his self-diagnosis wrongly'

Other Comments by AllanW

39. Comment #282973 by alan baylis on November 13, 2008 at 1:37 am

Cartomancer,

I listened to a discussion about this exact disorder some time ago on woman’s hour. If it is any comfort to you it is very common, including among very successful people.

I remember that after the discussion, the presenter, that excellent journalist Martha Carney saying sincerely, that she thought she was the only one.

Ps at the moment I am listening to a discussion on neuroscience and consciousness etc.

“In Our time” on radio four.

Dianelos should be listening to it.

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40. Comment #282974 by AForce1 on November 13, 2008 at 1:39 am

Parents' genes are in competition.
Wow! Startling stuff!
So whose genes won between Sarah & Todd to produce a Downs syndrome child? Or was it god's will that they should bear his wrath for some transgression? Being blessed by a witch perhaps?

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41. Comment #282976 by Quetzalcoatl on November 13, 2008 at 1:40 am

 avataralan baylis-

Ps at the moment I am listening to a discussion on neuroscience and consciousness etc.

“In Our time” on radio four.

Dianelos should be listening to it.


He left another post earlier today, which was an interesting read, even if I disagreed with it.

Cartomancer-

Since everyone else seems to be complimenting you, I will also add that you are quite the snappy dresser.

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42. Comment #282977 by Laurie Fraser on November 13, 2008 at 1:43 am

 avatarComment #282971 by AllanW

Sorry, Carto - purely for your own benefit, I take back everything I said. (Thanks, Allan.)





;)

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43. Comment #282978 by Laurie Fraser on November 13, 2008 at 1:48 am

 avatarAs a by the way, how many of you are going to Dublin to meet the glorious Titania?



... and me?

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44. Comment #282979 by Quetzalcoatl on November 13, 2008 at 1:50 am

 avatarLaurie-

I will hopefully be attending.

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45. Comment #282980 by AllanW on November 13, 2008 at 1:56 am

 avatarComment #282978 by Laurie Fraser on November 13, 2008 at 1:48 am
'As a by the way, how many of you are going to Dublin to meet the glorious Titania'



... and me' '

Wild horses couldn't stop me from attending this event. Can I suggest that (as I did with the meeting in Oxford) interested parties contact by PM or regular email the organiser' I will happily send my intentions to attend once I know who to send them to.

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46. Comment #282982 by AllanW on November 13, 2008 at 2:02 am

 avatarAs an aside about the Dublin meeting I'm looking forward to seeing a little more of the city as the last two visits for pleasure rather than business have been for stag weekends and while I'm sure the RD net meeting won't be Guiness-free I'm hoping it won't be completely Guiness-fuelled.

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47. Comment #282984 by MPhil on November 13, 2008 at 2:05 am

 avatarCarto,

not even in this situation where everyone is telling you how great you are do you need to be self-critical about that... while I don't know you personally, and thus cannot speak of your humour, your expressions always reflected your considerable intellect, and I always looked forward to reading a post of yours.

Actually, I wish you would join our little ring of people who comment on other people's blogs around here. And I know I'm not the only one who would like to read more of you.


Laurie,

noticed you blogged on one of my great musical heroes... Zappa. Incidentally, I recently blogged about his "student" Steve Vai, who became one of the best guitarists ever... do you know him?

Other Comments by MPhil

48. Comment #282985 by Quetzalcoatl on November 13, 2008 at 2:05 am

 avatarAllanW-

Titania or Tyler Durden are the ones to e-mail, I think. Tyler probably, since he actually lives in Ireland. It shouldn't be entirely drink-oriented; Titania made mention yesterday of a conference on one of the days, and a tour somewhere on another of the days. Should be very interesting.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

49. Comment #282988 by AllanW on November 13, 2008 at 2:11 am

 avatarSplutter splutter laurie, you old hippie, I can see we'll spend the time to down a couple of pints of Guiness discussing Zappa in Ireland.

MPhil; you have to get to Ireland if you can.

Quetz; thanks for the information. Can I ask Tyler or Titania to PM me with whomever is prepared to organise the meet, please'

Other Comments by AllanW

50. Comment #282991 by Laurie Fraser on November 13, 2008 at 2:13 am

 avatarMike - I'm very acquainted with Vai. However, I'm not a fan, as you are. Vai, to me, is a wonderful, workmanlike musician - I mean, let's face it; the guy's a virtuoso. But I'm not as convinced as you are of his imagination and inventiveness. There are many other guitarists I consider "great" before Vai. Perhaps you and I will have a collegial discussion about this subject on your blog or mine, eh?

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