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Atheism 2.0 - Indonesia's nonbelievers find refuge online
by AFP
Thanks to karl_karnadi / Secularist for the link
JAKARTA (AFP) — Chain-smoking at a trendy coffee shop while studiously ignoring the mosque's evening call to prayer, Indonesian atheists Didi and Dewi have little patience for the beliefs of most of their countrymen.
The two young women are defiant unbelievers in the world's largest Muslim-majority country, but they let few people in the real world know it.
Instead, the women have joined scores of young Indonesian atheists who have found refuge on the Internet, using web tools such as social networking sites, mailing lists, blogs and wikis to communicate with like-minded people in a country where declaring there is no God can turn someone into an outcast.
"For me personally (going online) is just to share my thoughts and to meet people who think the same way I do, because I don't see many in my real life," said Didi, a 29-year-old architect.
"It's easier to say that you're gay than an atheist."
Dewi, a 21-year-old student fond of sardonic put-downs of religion and superstition, agreed. In her life in the West Java city of Bandung, she keeps her lack of belief secret from all but her closest friends.
"If someone asks me 'do you want to pray?', then I pray. It's a political prayer," she said.
Both women, who refused to give their real names, go online daily to debate religion with fellow atheists -- and the few believers hardy enough to brave their barbs -- from safely behind their computer screens.
Asked what she would be without the Internet, Didi laughed: "I would be a full-closet atheist."
It is impossible to know how many atheists there are in Indonesia, a country of 234 million people that is nearly 90 percent Muslim, and where non-believers officially don't exist.
Every Indonesian must carry an identity card stating his or her adherence to one of six official religions -- Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or Confucianism -- and belief in "one God" is the first tenet of the official national ideology of Pancasila.
The deaths of upwards of half a million people during the bloody suppression of the Indonesian Communist Party in the lead-up to the 1966 rise to power of former dictator Suharto have also left their mark.
Anti-communist propaganda during Suharto's 32-year rule mean atheists are often conflated with communists, a stinging charge in Indonesia, where Cold War paranoia has never fully subsided.
It was such a stigma that prompted a 35-year-old teacher from West Sumatra, known online as "XYZMan," to start an email mailing list in 2004 to allow atheists to discuss their beliefs. The list now has more than 350 members.
Despite the success of the mailing list, XYZMan said he is forced to keep his own atheism secret in the real world, and has already suffered the breakdown of a marriage with a Muslim woman due to his non-belief.
"If everyone knew that I'm an atheist, I could lose my job, my family would hate me and also some friends," he said in an email interview.
"It's also more likely that I could be physically attacked or killed because I'm a kafir (unbeliever) and my blood is halal (allowed to be spilled) according to Islam."
Although small in number, Indonesia's online atheists have been quick adopters of the so-called "Web 2.0" innovations of blogs, wikis and social networking sites.
"We use every means possible (Facebook, Friendster, Multiply etc.) to show our existence, gather people," Karl Karnadi, a 25-year-old Indonesian student studying in Germany who is behind many of the web projects, said in a Facebook message to AFP.
Apart from connecting atheists, the web presence also serves to break the language barrier that leaves Indonesians unaware of prominent English-language atheist authors such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, Karnadi said.
The Ateis Indonesia (Indonesian Atheist) wiki -- where, like Wikipedia, users collectively contribute and edit content -- carries Indonesian-language articles on topics varying from evolution to arguments for and against religion and "deconversion" testimonials by fellow Indonesians.
"The wiki is some sort of collective knowledge, something that we (hopefully) can use each time we are discussing religion, debating creationists," Karnadi said.
The web presence also acts as a kind of support service. The Facebook group also has discussions on how to broach the subject of religion with friends and family, with most members confessing they think it wisest to keep "wearing a mask".
Karnadi, a former church pianist who recently turned his back on Christianity, said the eventual goal was to create a central website to coordinate atheists and reach out to Indonesians who have doubts about their religion.
It is a task that he conceded is much easier to do from abroad.
"I have my freedom here... and I can do anything, (create an atheist website, groups, criticise religion etc.) openly, without being afraid of any jail sentence or any fundies (fundamentalists) that would kill me," he said.
JAKARTA (AFP) — Chain-smoking at a trendy coffee shop while studiously ignoring the mosque's evening call to prayer, Indonesian atheists Didi and Dewi have little patience for the beliefs of most of their countrymen.
The two young women are defiant unbelievers in the world's largest Muslim-majority country, but they let few people in the real world know it.
Instead, the women have joined scores of young Indonesian atheists who have found refuge on the Internet, using web tools such as social networking sites, mailing lists, blogs and wikis to communicate with like-minded people in a country where declaring there is no God can turn someone into an outcast.
"For me personally (going online) is just to share my thoughts and to meet people who think the same way I do, because I don't see many in my real life," said Didi, a 29-year-old architect.
"It's easier to say that you're gay than an atheist."
Dewi, a 21-year-old student fond of sardonic put-downs of religion and superstition, agreed. In her life in the West Java city of Bandung, she keeps her lack of belief secret from all but her closest friends.
"If someone asks me 'do you want to pray?', then I pray. It's a political prayer," she said.
Both women, who refused to give their real names, go online daily to debate religion with fellow atheists -- and the few believers hardy enough to brave their barbs -- from safely behind their computer screens.
Asked what she would be without the Internet, Didi laughed: "I would be a full-closet atheist."
It is impossible to know how many atheists there are in Indonesia, a country of 234 million people that is nearly 90 percent Muslim, and where non-believers officially don't exist.
Every Indonesian must carry an identity card stating his or her adherence to one of six official religions -- Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or Confucianism -- and belief in "one God" is the first tenet of the official national ideology of Pancasila.
The deaths of upwards of half a million people during the bloody suppression of the Indonesian Communist Party in the lead-up to the 1966 rise to power of former dictator Suharto have also left their mark.
Anti-communist propaganda during Suharto's 32-year rule mean atheists are often conflated with communists, a stinging charge in Indonesia, where Cold War paranoia has never fully subsided.
It was such a stigma that prompted a 35-year-old teacher from West Sumatra, known online as "XYZMan," to start an email mailing list in 2004 to allow atheists to discuss their beliefs. The list now has more than 350 members.
Despite the success of the mailing list, XYZMan said he is forced to keep his own atheism secret in the real world, and has already suffered the breakdown of a marriage with a Muslim woman due to his non-belief.
"If everyone knew that I'm an atheist, I could lose my job, my family would hate me and also some friends," he said in an email interview.
"It's also more likely that I could be physically attacked or killed because I'm a kafir (unbeliever) and my blood is halal (allowed to be spilled) according to Islam."
Although small in number, Indonesia's online atheists have been quick adopters of the so-called "Web 2.0" innovations of blogs, wikis and social networking sites.
"We use every means possible (Facebook, Friendster, Multiply etc.) to show our existence, gather people," Karl Karnadi, a 25-year-old Indonesian student studying in Germany who is behind many of the web projects, said in a Facebook message to AFP.
Apart from connecting atheists, the web presence also serves to break the language barrier that leaves Indonesians unaware of prominent English-language atheist authors such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, Karnadi said.
The Ateis Indonesia (Indonesian Atheist) wiki -- where, like Wikipedia, users collectively contribute and edit content -- carries Indonesian-language articles on topics varying from evolution to arguments for and against religion and "deconversion" testimonials by fellow Indonesians.
"The wiki is some sort of collective knowledge, something that we (hopefully) can use each time we are discussing religion, debating creationists," Karnadi said.
The web presence also acts as a kind of support service. The Facebook group also has discussions on how to broach the subject of religion with friends and family, with most members confessing they think it wisest to keep "wearing a mask".
Karnadi, a former church pianist who recently turned his back on Christianity, said the eventual goal was to create a central website to coordinate atheists and reach out to Indonesians who have doubts about their religion.
It is a task that he conceded is much easier to do from abroad.
"I have my freedom here... and I can do anything, (create an atheist website, groups, criticise religion etc.) openly, without being afraid of any jail sentence or any fundies (fundamentalists) that would kill me," he said.
Comments 1 - 50 of 116 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #327449 by danhayes on January 25, 2009 at 9:03 am
Stories like this make me think that sometimes we take our freedoms for granted. Even though we have problems with religion in our countries, at least we can voice our opinions. Other Comments by danhayes
3. Comment #327470 by DoctorE on January 25, 2009 at 9:34 am
Nice, I really think the world is waking up from the nightmare of religion.
This is a question og being a trained ape vs intelligent proud human.
Religion keeps humans in a cage at the zoo... lets break out of it...
Other Comments by DoctorE
4. Comment #327482 by DoctorE on January 25, 2009 at 9:49 am
obamaisgod
real christian?... can somthing be real when its based on lies and bs... at best you are a real victim of a "nigerian" scam, thats the only thing thats real about your religion.
BUT you have some hope getting out since you are here on this site... I wish you good luck in getting out of your delusions
Praise humanity
Other Comments by DoctorE
5. Comment #327483 by phil rimmer on January 25, 2009 at 9:53 am
Comment #327467 by obamaisgodCare to explain this equivalence of experience (yours and Didi and Dewi's)?
Or like with everything else in your head you don't do that fiddly detail thing involving logical thinking.
*slams door*
Clue- Whose doorbell did Didi ring?
EDIT And before you get all martyry, most door to door salesmen have the door slammed in their faces. Its an intrusion.
Other Comments by phil rimmer
6. Comment #327484 by Jack Rawlinson on January 25, 2009 at 9:53 am
As a (real) Christian, when I try and talk to people about God and his Kingdom, they slam the door in my face.Yeah, why is that, do you think, obamaisgod? Could it be because getting people to answer their door only to start spouting a lot of impertinent nonsense at them is, you know, really annoying and really ill-mannered?
Think about it.
Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson
7. Comment #327488 by DoctorE on January 25, 2009 at 10:01 am
obamaisgod
Look in the mirror and you will see what you are really worshipping.
You see if you take out the threats and rewards in religion then you have no reason to worship... that does in fact mean you are worshipping YOU and nothing else.
Other Comments by DoctorE
8. Comment #327492 by mordacious1 on January 25, 2009 at 10:09 am
"I have my freedom here... and I can do anything, (create an atheist website, groups, criticise religion etc.) openly, without being afraid of...any fundies (fundamentalists) that would kill me," he said.
I wouldn't be too sure of that.
ps. Guys, let's not feed that troll.
Other Comments by mordacious1
9. Comment #327493 by mordacious1 on January 25, 2009 at 10:13 am
This article underscores the importance of RD.net and sites like it. The web seems to be leading the revolution. There is a lot of hope...now if we can just get some more TV time in the U.S. Other Comments by mordacious1
10. Comment #327497 by Titania on January 25, 2009 at 10:17 am
I have been watching obamaisgod's posts for a couple of days and he is deleting every single post as he makes them. So I have copied his latest.
12. Comment #327494 by obamaisgod on January 25, 2009 at 10:13 am
Sorry you think its all a lie. No way can I believe the great Jesus is a liar. Anyway, the bible tells us about the future and it is clear by the sign of the times, that we are living deep in the last days of this system of things. I still enjoy science, it's the governments of man that are the real failure. It was never intended for man to rule himself, only Gods kingdom will truly bring peace and security to mankind and save the earth from ruin.
How Can I Avoid Getting Involved With the Wrong People?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050822/article_01.htm
Other Comments by Titania
11. Comment #327499 by banksmc on January 25, 2009 at 10:20 am
"only Gods kingdom will truly bring peace and security to mankind and save the earth from ruin."I can't think of anything worse than living in "God's kingdom." Give me democracy any day.
I know, I know, don't feed the troll, I just can't help it.
Other Comments by banksmc
12. Comment #327500 by mordacious1 on January 25, 2009 at 10:21 am
Titania
I think Josh is deleting them, he is a major troll.
[edit] Did that sound like Josh is a troll? I mean Obamawhatever. :)
Other Comments by mordacious1
13. Comment #327509 by robotaholic on January 25, 2009 at 10:29 am
Man, I sure do hope these people don't get slaughtered!!
obamaisgod, what's with the jehovah's witness crap, I used to be one! but not anymore thank goodness i got out of the cult
Other Comments by robotaholic
14. Comment #327519 by Stafford Gordon on January 25, 2009 at 10:41 am
danhayes comment #2 puts things into perspective.Atheists must avoid wingeing; in democratic countries we're not victims.
Leave the wingeing to you know who.
Other Comments by Stafford Gordon
15. Comment #327562 by Diacanu on January 25, 2009 at 12:01 pm
obamaisgod-
Who is Maitreya?
Another idiotic crackpot from the woodwork.
Other Comments by Diacanu
16. Comment #327563 by troyreynolds86 on January 25, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Of all of the goals of Atheists increasing our social profiles through books and bus campaigns I find that any change that could come to society (in which I mean the people within a society) where being a non-believer carries with it absolutely no stigma to be the most important. When these folks in Indonesia, who have to live in fear because they do not partake in the majority superstitions, can finally tell the whole world with total security and confidence that they don't believe it will be then that the tide of this discourse will have swung in our favor. To steal a line from the Discovery Institute (nearly a sin in itself), this change would be a terrific wedge. People would have to deal with the reality of it all, once they finally realize that man does not need to rely on religion for happiness, morality or comfort, and I could think of nothing more detrimental to a religious mindset than that.Troy
Other Comments by troyreynolds86
17. Comment #327565 by Eshto on January 25, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Okay people, he's gone.Well this just solidifies my opinion that the internet may be the single greatest thing to happen to mankind.
Although it does allow the stupid to spread just as quickly as other information, but there are ups and downs to every tool that we invent.
Other Comments by Eshto
18. Comment #327582 by submoron on January 25, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I keep seeing comments about"obamaisgod" but never ,apart from Tiatania's edit from above, see his/her/its comments. Where can I find out what this Cretin has being saying please?Other Comments by submoron
19. Comment #327584 by Eshto on January 25, 2009 at 1:01 pm
OMG PEOPLE STOP GIVING THAT IDIOT ATTENTION HE DOESN'T DESERVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(pulling tufts of hair out of my head)
Other Comments by Eshto
20. Comment #327588 by Bonzai on January 25, 2009 at 1:11 pm
It looks like all but two of his posts are deleted. Other Comments by Bonzai
21. Comment #327590 by Corylus on January 25, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Comment #327588 by Bonzai:It looks like all but two of his posts are deleted.He had three up when I looked. A most peculiar trolling technique - probably to prevent evidence that would get him into an alternate thread.
I suggest a mass ignore.
-----
[Edit]
Back on thread I am glad that the people in the article are able to talk to others of like mind - even if only virtually.
I take this opportunity (hopefully they are reading!) to send them my support.
Other Comments by Corylus
22. Comment #327592 by robotaholic on January 25, 2009 at 1:16 pm
quit posting scriptures from the bible- noone fucking cares -most ppl here have read it already and know it's obsolete- just like all of your posts you troll Other Comments by robotaholic
23. Comment #327597 by sonnygll on January 25, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Come on people. DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! Unless of course you think it's funny and want to encourage them to continue.Other Comments by sonnygll
24. Comment #327599 by g-21-lto on January 25, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Though as an American atheist I haven't faced nearly the dangers of social stigma or violence as the atheists in Indonesia, I can't help but draw some parallels with my own "deconversion" experience. It seems to me as some have said earlier in the thread that the internet is a very important engine of free thought, both in providing a chance for believers to read freethinkers' writings and in providing a social network.It was reading what actual atheists/agnostics actually had to say, on various websites, that really got me started thinking about my adherence to religion. Within several months I had become agnostic, and upon further thought, decided that the label "atheist" was more appropriate. Despite joining a secular student group my senior year of college, the internet has remained my major tool for engaging in religious dialogue. (Then again, I'm kind of a social wimp.)
I guess my point is: keep on, both with the great service of community, news, etc. that this website provides. And with ignoring the accusations of "shrillness" that crop up whenever nonbelievers make their public presence anything stronger than "we're sorry we exist, we'll disappear again now."
Other Comments by g-21-lto
25. Comment #327605 by Eshto on January 25, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Hmmm. Troll or spam? Tough choice.Okay I'll click both.
Anywho, g-21-lto's post is great. I feel very much the same way.
I love RD.net, but for me it wasn't just the atheist websites, it was the simple fact that with the internet, information is now so widely available, if you know how and where to look for it. And with the internet you get rapidly updating information at that.
My journey to atheism was long and winding, but an important event was when I discovered wikipedia, learned how it worked and how to follow citations, and eventually became a contributor. Suddenly everything was about having to back up assertions with evidence; and as a regular editor a large part of your time is spent scanning articles for vandalism and unsourced claims and weeding them out.
First time I encountered any of Richard's work was on a video hosting website, I was perusing various TV documentaries and stumbled upon his The Root of All Evil? documentary. I was totally blown away by it.
Other Comments by Eshto
26. Comment #327607 by AfraidToDie on January 25, 2009 at 1:54 pm
3. Comment #327465 by Foxy: We need to tell the people of Afghanistan that they needn't blow themselves up in the name of Allah; he doesn't exist.
Heaven is not exactly what those 72 virgins were expecting! Check this comic’s view out CLICK HERE
Other Comments by AfraidToDie
27. Comment #327609 by hoops mccann on January 25, 2009 at 2:02 pm
On another thread, I suggested that we should ignore obamaisgod. I noticed that some others are seconding my message. Please, people, don't legitimize this troll by engaging with him. We should know by now how trolling works. Other Comments by hoops mccann
28. Comment #327610 by AfraidToDie on January 25, 2009 at 2:03 pm
It took awhile to get it to work - several re-edits. I wish there was a "test" your message before you submit it. I believe there used to be. Oh well, try again - thanks! Other Comments by AfraidToDie
29. Comment #327615 by epeeist on January 25, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Comment #327587 by obamaisgod:He had three up when I looked. A most peculiar trolling technique - probably to prevent evidence that would get him into an alternate thread.Well he is an idiot in that case - does he actually think there isn't an audit trail of him posting.
Other Comments by epeeist
30. Comment #327618 by AfraidToDie on January 25, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Hoops, I'm not sure obamaisgod is a troll or just so far out in left field (or outer space) that he appears to be a troll. I did go to one of the sites he posted, and read a little bit about the Brit who apparently started resurrecting this religious figure of which I can't recall since all the links are gone (Mantra or something like that). From what I gather, he believes in evolution (in a very strange way) and that all the major religious figures were motivated through this guy, and somehow unifies all religions claiming one creator. Some of the questions and answers sounded more palatable than many religions, but when he started talking about the alien spirits on other planets such as Mars is when I realized "left field" is an understatement. I don't believe this guy is a malicious troll as much as he is just totally loonie. But then again, doesn't matter much when trying to debate someone that whacked out; it isn't worth the effort.
EDIT: Oh yes, the Brit is Benjamin Creme and the so called Master was Maitreya. Could this guy be Benjamin Creme himself, or a more likely a continuous user of large quantities of LSD? Please reveal yourself osamaisgod, and seek help!
Other Comments by AfraidToDie
31. Comment #327620 by Librarian on January 25, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Just got my National Geographic magazine. Great article on Darwin and Evolution. The more information and communication the better.I have to agree with what many have posted. At least we have the freedom to speak out. I have not experienced any prejudice for my Atheism. Though I'm being prayed for! I don't care as long as I don't have to hear it.
Other Comments by Librarian
32. Comment #327622 by TuftedPuffin on January 25, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Maitreya and JW? I'm rather confused here...I would have thought those two to be mutually exclusive...Anyway, obamaisgod, please, this isn't the thread. You want to argue for...um...either of your professed religions...the proper place is in the forums, not the comment threads.
Other Comments by TuftedPuffin
33. Comment #327633 by SilentMike on January 25, 2009 at 2:56 pm
I searched the comments, but I didn't find the word "brave" anywhere. These are brave brave brave people. The Internet doesn't really offer absolute anonymity. They can get found out, they can be hurt. There are plenty of religious nutjobs in Indonesia.Other Comments by SilentMike
34. Comment #327634 by the great teapot on January 25, 2009 at 3:02 pm
obamaisgod,easy mistake to make , most here treat it as a forum. Touchy subject of late, best not to dwell on it.
Other Comments by the great teapot
35. Comment #327641 by Eshto on January 25, 2009 at 3:35 pm
I searched the comments, but I didn't find the word "brave" anywhere. These are brave brave brave people. The Internet doesn't really offer absolute anonymity. They can get found out, they can be hurt. There are plenty of religious nutjobs in Indonesia.
Well, brave or careless. Fine line.
But if they post anonymously or under fake names, how would they be found out?
What might be missing from this article is a more precise description of the types of websites they're using. Probably not going to be a strong myspace/facebook type community where your personal info, friends and job connections are plastered all over it.
I'm guessing it's more like forums where people have avatars and no real names are used.
Other Comments by Eshto
36. Comment #327654 by Zeratul on January 25, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Greetings from Indonesia!Yes, here atheist = communist. I do not know whether my late uncle is included in the half million victims, some says two million. He was taken by the mob, never to return. And he is just a driver :-( and NOT even a communist!
@foxy, not stoned to death, usually hacked with parang (machete), and put afloat in the river or mass-buried.
Other Comments by Zeratul
37. Comment #327655 by Dhamma on January 25, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Epeeist,Is he in idiot in THAT case? I'd say he's a full blown fuckwad in every case.
Other Comments by Dhamma
38. Comment #327660 by Sonic on January 25, 2009 at 4:24 pm
I found this article enlightening and sobering. I like Foxy's suggestion in #327465 - "Most of all, we need linguists who can translate English-speaking author's books such as God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything and The God Delusion into Pakistani, Indian, and all the languages of the Middle East, Africa, and Asia."One book I would suggest for translation is 50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God by Guy Harrison (2008). The book speaks to how many believers really think and feel about their beliefs in gods.
Other Comments by Sonic
39. Comment #327680 by Zeratul on January 25, 2009 at 5:10 pm
@ foxy,:-D thanks a lot!
My deep sympathy to you too!
Yes, I shall remember that I am not alone. And frankly, internet has helped much in that. And of the needs of atheist materials, for we have book bans also here.
Other Comments by Zeratul
40. Comment #327686 by Bacchus on January 25, 2009 at 5:29 pm
It makes me wonder how many people would renounce islam if the likely outcome wasn't a horrible death. Other Comments by Bacchus
41. Comment #327690 by Zeratul on January 25, 2009 at 5:37 pm
@foxy,yes, we have book bans here, permanent book bans. Especially atheistic books, the official term is "latent danger of communism". And film bans too.
So under normal circumstances, no Charles Darwin, FourHorsemen of Apocalype (Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennet) etc. And no Bill Maher. And absolutely, certainly no Religulous :-D
Congratulations for the new President!
Other Comments by Zeratul
42. Comment #327692 by Dhamma on January 25, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Obamaisgod,Yes, I'm a believer now. That letter must convince every doubter. Really strong material. Shows them atheists!
Other Comments by Dhamma
43. Comment #327696 by Goldy on January 25, 2009 at 6:18 pm
You have book bans? How totalitarian!
I remember when I lived in Jakarta the foreign magazines with the censor's black pen across anything deemed a bit risque. Last one I remember was some pictures of old masters modified by having the naughty bits blacked out.
Saying that, I liked Jakarta :-)
Other Comments by Goldy
44. Comment #327698 by iType on January 25, 2009 at 6:18 pm
This is a great story. It's so irritating when religious idiots keep trying to tell everyone what to think and believe. Nice to know those who live in an oppressive environment can still reach out and think freely amidst the religious lunacy.Other Comments by iType
45. Comment #327700 by root2squared on January 25, 2009 at 6:32 pm
"For me personally (going online) is just to share my thoughts and to meet people who think the same way I do, because I don't see many in my real life," said Didi, a 29-year-old architect.
Part of the reason I spend time here is precisely this. I don't know have any friends or family who are atheist!
You cannot have an intellectual conversation with religious people because anytime there is something unexplained or hard to understand, in comes the gap-filler - god.
I spent half an hour yesterday trying to explain to a friend that the "miraculous" recovery of a person with brain tumor is not proof of god's existence.
Other Comments by root2squared
46. Comment #327702 by Goldy on January 25, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Root
I spent half an hour yesterday trying to explain to a friend that the "miraculous" recovery of a person with brain tumor is not proof of god's existence.
Assuming part of the "miracle" involved medical intervention...but then they never think of that!
Other Comments by Goldy
47. Comment #327704 by root2squared on January 25, 2009 at 7:01 pm
FoxyAt least drunk people can be fun sometimes.
Goldy
Well, the claim was that the doctors did not know what happened either. So I said, that just means it's something we don't understand yet.
But no, because current medicine cannot explain what happened, it means god exists.
Sigh.
Other Comments by root2squared
48. Comment #327707 by Goldy on January 25, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Well, the claim was that the doctors did not know what happened either.
Yeah they always say that. Sigh...
Oh well, time to get beer brewing.
Other Comments by Goldy
49. Comment #327708 by hoops mccann on January 25, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Comment #327618 by AfraidToDie:
"I don't believe this guy is a malicious troll as much as he is just totally loonie."
I stand corrected :)
Other Comments by hoops mccann
50. Comment #327712 by hogposh on January 25, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Zeratul,
Untaro Adun!
Other Comments by hogposh
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1. Comment #327440 by ina.j on January 25, 2009 at 8:59 am
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