1. Comment #331660 by justdust on February 1, 2009 at 10:09 am

Tee-shirt, XL please.

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2. Comment #331662 by fatpiranha on February 1, 2009 at 10:10 am

Great slogan. Although without science they'd have a hard time flying into buildings & would probably just make an amusing smudge.

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3. Comment #331663 by debacles on February 1, 2009 at 10:11 am

Harsh. I like it. We need to get one of these campaigns in Montreal. What can I do to make this happen?

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4. Comment #331664 by 7sD on February 1, 2009 at 10:12 am

damn, that's good.

may we use it?

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5. Comment #331666 by Xplodyncow on February 1, 2009 at 10:15 am

I love it. Clever and to the point.

But what is this campaign as a whole trying to accomplish? Does it have a goal? The first slogan ("There's probably no god ...") perhaps got some people to stop and think; this one, however, might further divide believers from nonbelievers. Offending people isn't a good way to get them to listen to you.

Other Comments by Xplodyncow

6. Comment #331667 by Rosbif on February 1, 2009 at 10:16 am

Good slogan.
I like this as it separates the god debate from the religious debate.
This can be substantiated.

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7. Comment #331668 by Quine on February 1, 2009 at 10:16 am

Great for web sites, but on the side of the bus, I think I would work up to it after the public gets numb to our less "aggressive" suggestions. (I do, however, want to put up Jesus and Mo inside the bus.)

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8. Comment #331669 by Baron Scarpia on February 1, 2009 at 10:17 am

It will trigger heart attacks. I like it, but I think it's too confrontational, considering the goal is to get people to think.

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9. Comment #331670 by Ilovelucy on February 1, 2009 at 10:18 am

There I was thinking science was a method and not an ideology. As pointed out above, science gives us the ability to fly to the moon and fly into buildings. The question is, without religion, would events as 9/11 stop happening? I think not.

If this ended up on a bus it would just succeed in spreading the rude, angry atheist stereotype.

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10. Comment #331673 by Steve Zara on February 1, 2009 at 10:20 am

Comment #331669 by Baron Scarpia

I agree. The great thing about the current UK bus slogan is its mildness. It makes the strong reactions to it seem even more absurd than otherwise.

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11. Comment #331674 by NewEnglandBob on February 1, 2009 at 10:21 am

This from a man who proved there is no god. I love it.

I pre-ordered Stenger's upcoming April book.

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12. Comment #331682 by Librarian on February 1, 2009 at 10:34 am

I would love a Tee shirt with that slogan! At this point it may be a bit much for the bus campaign. Maybe work up to it.

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13. Comment #331686 by JAMCAM87 on February 1, 2009 at 10:41 am

I'm torn.

I like the slogan and think it's clever.

But we achieved so much with the "probably" approach. We had journalists like Madeliene Bunting calling us "uncertain" and "unconvincing" which made a change from her usual "certain" and "strident" and "dogmatic."

Isn't this playing the game they want it'

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14. Comment #331688 by decius on February 1, 2009 at 10:42 am

Comment #331669 by Baron Scarpia

It is confrontational, but true.

This is a campaign, not a picnic, it is supposed to escalate by definition.
Besides, it doesn't even come close to a fair payback for all what we collectively have to endure constantly from the faith-heads.

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15. Comment #331690 by Evilcor on February 1, 2009 at 10:43 am

I'm getting that tattooed on my face!

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16. Comment #331694 by Robert Maynard on February 1, 2009 at 10:47 am

OOF that would smart. And they think the current thing is offensive! xD

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17. Comment #331697 by Quine on February 1, 2009 at 10:50 am

I just would not want that slogan to become self-fulfilling:




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18. Comment #331699 by AllanW on February 1, 2009 at 10:51 am

Trite IMO. On balance it gives away the advantage that the initial slogans gained by being reasonable. The slogan may be clever but it is far more likely to be ignored by those sitting on the fence. There may well be a place for this kind of attack ad in the future but why dilute the almost universally positive reactions being received now?

Other Comments by AllanW

19. Comment #331700 by JAMCAM87 on February 1, 2009 at 10:54 am

Foxy,

I am, however, deeply worried that this might offend someone. Of course it's perfectly true, but I wouldn't want to start a riot. I just dread the thought of some preacher proclaiming that the evil atheists are attacking people and mocking them.

We should never have to worry about offending anyone. We can say and do exactly as we wish, Decius is right in many respects. However, it's a matter of political tactics - how to optimise staying true to what we really think and having the greatest impact in changing hearts and minds.

Other Comments by JAMCAM87

20. Comment #331701 by mordacious1 on February 1, 2009 at 10:55 am

I'd like someone to submit this to the Advertising Standards Board (or was it Association?, whatever) just to see if they would let something like this on their buses.

The religious would probably say, "Well, if it wasn't for god, you wouldn't have a moon to fly to, now would you?".

Other Comments by mordacious1

21. Comment #331705 by gyokusai on February 1, 2009 at 10:59 am

Dang this is good.

http://twitter.com/gyokusai/status/1167421926

This has to be proliferated ASAP, whether it's a good idea for bus advertising or no.

^_^J. (awed)

EDIT: So what. Let's offend, for goodness' sake!

POSTEDIT: So where's the tee-shirt. Why does it take so long?!?

Other Comments by gyokusai

22. Comment #331711 by Bonzai on February 1, 2009 at 11:09 am

Add one more sentence:

"But Stenger's ad won't fly"



EDIT: Mord1, get your snake away from me.

Other Comments by Bonzai

23. Comment #331715 by Tzsak on February 1, 2009 at 11:14 am

Sounds like a good way to get a huge amount of negative publicity concerning atheists portraying science as being incompatible with religion >_<

While the people who say that are clearly missing the point, I can imagine a slogan less likely to attract heavy criticism is a good idea~

Other Comments by Tzsak

24. Comment #331717 by Quine on February 1, 2009 at 11:20 am

Comment #331705 by gyokusai:

POSTEDIT: So where's the tee-shirt. Why does it take so long?!?

Here you go, make your own t-shirt on the web and have it sent to you.

P.S. You could use the picture on the top of this thread and have it ordered in just a couple of minutes.

Other Comments by Quine

25. Comment #331719 by Bonzai on February 1, 2009 at 11:24 am

decius

It is confrontational, but true.

Eh.. I am not so sure about it. We sure won't like it if some neo-Luddites put up an add showing the mushroom cloud over Hiroshima with the caption: the true face of science, it would be confrontational and not true,--it is very selective about science. Same with this ad, it is very selective, most religious people don't fly into buildings, nor do they condone acts like that.

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26. Comment #331720 by gyokusai on February 1, 2009 at 11:24 am

@Quine Yeah thanks but, y'know, that question's been meant to be on the rhetorical side quite a bit!

^_^J.

Other Comments by gyokusai

27. Comment #331721 by bendigeidfran on February 1, 2009 at 11:25 am

Someone here had a good one a few months ago - was it Fanusi? may well not have been. It went something like 'You howl at the moon whereas we have walked upon it'.

Anyway we should copy the religious and split to diffuse responsibility. Any dodgy slogans that backfire can then be dismissed as 'not my atheism'.

Other Comments by bendigeidfran

28. Comment #331722 by Bonzai on February 1, 2009 at 11:27 am

bendigeidfran

Yeah, it was Fanusi, he wrote, 'While your neurotic prophet prostrated before the moon in fear, we walked on it.' It is a good line.

Other Comments by Bonzai

29. Comment #331723 by JAMCAM87 on February 1, 2009 at 11:28 am

I agree Foxy and that's why I think

"Without god, Life is everything" should be the new slogan.

OR

"No more faith schools"

Other Comments by JAMCAM87

30. Comment #331724 by jshuey on February 1, 2009 at 11:28 am

I simply do not care who finds me offensive or aggressive. If the truth offends you, it is your problem, not mine.

I would also posit the possibility that it is weak statements, purposely designed not to offend, that enables the fence-sitters to remain perched in place. I'm all for calling a spade a spade and letting the chips fall where they may. (Metaphor Alert!)

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31. Comment #331725 by decius on February 1, 2009 at 11:30 am

Comment #331719 by Bonzai

It would be a wrong statement, so it shouldn't really concern us.

Contrary to prescriptive religion, nowhere science requires one to commit heinous acts. It can enable and empower decision-makers to do so on a vast scale, but that's beyond the point.
It isn't Nobel's fault if someone blows up your home with dynamite.

I'm surprised that you even bring up such tripe.

Other Comments by decius

32. Comment #331726 by Bonzai on February 1, 2009 at 11:33 am

decius,

Most religious people don't fly planes into buildings, neither would they condone it. If you want to argue about prescriptive theology, most religions would probably agree that suicide is a sin,--that include the majority of Muslim scholars.

Other Comments by Bonzai

33. Comment #331729 by decius on February 1, 2009 at 11:35 am

Comment #331726 by Bonzai

They don't, but they should, according to their holy books.
They should also stone us to death.
That's the point.

Other Comments by decius

34. Comment #331730 by Steve Zara on February 1, 2009 at 11:37 am

Comment #331724 by jshuey

You may not care, but this is supposed to be an advertising campaign. The previous slogan worked well because it also had an "we atheists are the nice guys" angle. I think that has really helped, as it makes the religious nutters clearly appear to be the unreasonable ones. I don't object to escalating the campaign, but surely we don't want to lose the sympathy of the public.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

35. Comment #331731 by Bonzai on February 1, 2009 at 11:37 am

36. Comment #331729 by decius

Well, they shouldn't commit suicide according to their holy books, that's why it is such a straw man.

Other Comments by Bonzai

36. Comment #331732 by Quine on February 1, 2009 at 11:40 am

Comment #331720 by gyokusai:

@Quine Yeah thanks but, y'know, that question's been meant to be on the rhetorical side quite a bit!

Well, mine is on the way. It will look like this:





Other Comments by Quine

37. Comment #331733 by decius on February 1, 2009 at 11:41 am

Comment #331731 by Bonzai

Actually, that's technically martyrdom, which is highly praised and encouraged, and not suicide.

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38. Comment #331736 by mordacious1 on February 1, 2009 at 11:43 am

Bonzai

Now that you've made Niblet hungry, I'll have to feed him tonight. (sorry Mitchell)

[edit] oops, that sounded like I was going to feed Mitchell to my snake. He doesn't like mice being fed to snakes because they're more intelligent.

Other Comments by mordacious1

39. Comment #331737 by Prankster on February 1, 2009 at 11:44 am

Harsh. Too harsh as an advert for some maybe, not harsh enough maybe for others? If the other slogans caused offence, I can't imagine what some zealots would make of this.

It makes a campaign for promotion of atheistic views or opinions look unreasonable.

Then again the mischevious side of ms says it would look awesome as a tee shirt-XXXL please!

Other Comments by Prankster

40. Comment #331738 by Bonzai on February 1, 2009 at 11:44 am

Quine

The model is beheaded. It is ominous (yeah I know we don't believe in omen)

Other Comments by Bonzai

41. Comment #331739 by decius on February 1, 2009 at 11:45 am

Comment #331736 by mordacious1

Does it eat live prey?

Other Comments by decius

42. Comment #331740 by Baron Scarpia on February 1, 2009 at 11:45 am

I simply do not care who finds me offensive or aggressive.

Maybe not, but it someone finds you offensive, they are less likely to think that you have a good point. The reflexive outrage kicks in and they are simply deaf to anything else you have to say.

Comment #331729 by decius

The other problem with Stenger's slogan is that it's too easy for someone to say 'That's not MY religion!' Whether they're right or not is beside the point. One of the best things about 'There's probably no god' was that nobody could really say 'That's not MY god!'

Other Comments by Baron Scarpia

43. Comment #331741 by Bonzai on February 1, 2009 at 11:47 am

decius

Actually, that's technically martyrdom, which is highly praised and encouraged, and not suicide

That is apparently a minority opinion among Muslim scholars. Martyrdom means die by the enemy's hand, blowing up yourself with premeditation intending to bring down others don't count according to many Muslims. Ask Al about it when he posts next time.

EDIT: Besides, the ad supposedly is not just about Islam.

Other Comments by Bonzai

44. Comment #331742 by mordacious1 on February 1, 2009 at 11:48 am

He will, but to prevent him from injury I feed him previously frozen mice.

Other Comments by mordacious1

45. Comment #331743 by gyokusai on February 1, 2009 at 11:48 am

@quine that's awesome. Let's hope the print quality's good enough so people will be able to read the slogan without having to bury their noses in your chest! :-)

^_^J.

Other Comments by gyokusai

46. Comment #331745 by Bonzai on February 1, 2009 at 11:49 am

Mord

Frozen mice? I am appalled. It is a corn snake, why don't you feed him corn?

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47. Comment #331746 by Quine on February 1, 2009 at 11:52 am

It was worth a shot, but the second line of the text may be too small (I will see when I get it). If folks want to get closer and see what it says, that could be a good conversation starter.

Other Comments by Quine

48. Comment #331749 by Szymanowski on February 1, 2009 at 11:56 am

It's an abysmal slogan, and completely against the spirit of the current campaign.

Other Comments by Szymanowski

49. Comment #331750 by mordacious1 on February 1, 2009 at 11:56 am

Comment #331745 by Bonzai

I'm sure that was a jest. As you know, all snakes are carnivores.

Other Comments by mordacious1

50. Comment #331752 by decius on February 1, 2009 at 12:00 pm

Comment #331741 by Bonzai


Bollocks.

Other texts have been read in support of condoning suicide (or at least allowing for forgiveness for it): Psalms 139:8-10; Judges 8:18-21; 1 Kings 19:4; Jonah 4:3,9; Daniel 3:16-18; Matthew 10:39; 12:31; 28:20b; Mark 8:35; 10:42-45; Luke 7:33; 9:24; 14:26-27; 23:28-31; John 3:16; 5:28-29; 10:11-15; 13:37; 21:18-19; Romans 8:1-2,10-11,18-23,28,38-39; 14:7-12; 15:12-14; 1 Corinthians 13:3; 2 Corinthians 1:8; 5:1-10; 1 John 1:5-7; 2:15-17, 3:16; Philippians 1:21-24; Acts 20:22-24; 21:12-14; Revelation 9:6; 21:1-5). Altogether, however, only seven individuals take or willingly give their own lives in the Bible; two more attempt to do so, and at least one notable figure appears to consider the option.

Abimelech, Samson, and Saul each kill themselves in order to preserve their honor during battle (see Judges 9.54; 16:28-30; and 1 Samuel 31:1-6). (For his actions, Samson is later listed among the heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11:32). Ahithopel and Zimri each take their own lives after attempting to usurp the throne of Israel at different times (see 2 Samuel 17:1, 23; 2 Kings 16:18). The account of Judas' hanging of himself out of remorse is probably the most well- known biblical example of suicide (see Matthew 27:4,5). Jonah attempts to give his life to calm the sea and save the boat's crew (1-4), though ultimately he is himself saved.

Finally, Jesus' death can be examined in light of this issue. Few people today would be willing to describe Jesus' death as a "suicide," even though he willingly gives up his life (see John 10:18; Mark 14:36) and even seems to provoke the Judean and Roman authorities into executing him (see for example Mark 12:1-12; 14:62; 15:5). He also invites his followers to be willing to give up their own lives for the sake of the gospel as well (see Mark 8:34-38; 13:9-13). Christians in the early Church did, in fact, experience political and religious persecution just as Jesus had (See Acts 8, Stephen's martyrdom). Those Christians who willingly gave their life for their faith are usually called "martyrs".

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