1. Comment #335687 by benrinnes on February 6, 2009 at 11:01 am

One for the Advertising Standards to look into, " There definitely is a god"?
I would expect proof of that statement!

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2. Comment #335691 by The Truth, the light on February 6, 2009 at 11:03 am

Let me get this straight. Certain conservative Christians get their knickers in a knot because they claim the phrase "There probably isn't a god" is offensive and contravenes the advertising standards, but an absolute statement of "There definitely is a god" is just fine.

Crazy.

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3. Comment #335694 by tokehashi on February 6, 2009 at 11:04 am

If our side had used the word definitely, SG would 'probably' have won his case

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4. Comment #335695 by MadMonkey on February 6, 2009 at 11:06 am

Let the Bus Wars begin...

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5. Comment #335700 by wengerj on February 6, 2009 at 11:12 am

And the Christians fire back with a bunch of unsupported BS and an insult. How typical.

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6. Comment #335704 by Richard Dawkins on February 6, 2009 at 11:15 am

In response to requests for comments on the news that three Christian groups will be running adverts inspired by the atheist bus campaign, Hanne Stinson, the British Humanist Association's Chief Executive has made the following statement:

We entirely support free expression and freedom of belief, and so fully support the right of these Christian groups to place their ads on buses. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Of course, there are differences between the Atheist Bus ads and the new Christian ones and I want to take this opportunity to reflect them.

Our ads were a response to ads run by jesussaid.org whose website promised an eternity of hellfire for non-Christians. Our response message, suggested by comedy writer Ariane Sherine was intended to be reassuring, telling people not to worry and enjoy life, as there was probably no god and so no cause to fear an eternity of hellfire.

Our ads were funded entirely by thousands of individual donors who gave small amounts in an outpouring of popular support for the positive message. The ads now launched in response to our response are funded by organisations or wealthy individuals.

Our ads were positive and peaceful. They didn’t say, for example, that religious people were ‘fools’, unlike one of the response ads being run, which says that "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."

Our ads were undogmatic and funny, with the addition of the ‘probably’ in line with the continuing openness of humanists to new evidence and in an echo of previous funny ads, like the Carlsberg ad which stated that it was ‘probably the best lager in the world’. The new ads are dogmatic and declaratory, leaving no room for reason and debate.

Of course, these groups are free to express themselves as they choose. Our ads encouraged people to think for themselves and I am convinced that they will continue to do so.

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7. Comment #335705 by tvictor on February 6, 2009 at 11:15 am

Evidence? No? TYVM

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8. Comment #335706 by rod-the-farmer on February 6, 2009 at 11:15 am

I agree. Howcum they get to say "definitely" and we don't ? Where are the email addresses for the Ministers responsible for this question ?

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9. Comment #335707 by Cartomancer on February 6, 2009 at 11:17 am

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Pathetic. I find it tremendously unflattering when people respond to a witty, subtle and amusing advert like "there's probably no god, now stop worrying and get on with your life" with something so crashingly heavy-handed and crass. It's like watching a five year old parroting your words back to you with a crude twist and thinking he has done something incredibly clever.

Still, if I know the British public these adverts will only have the opposite effect to that intended, and serve to win people for our cause. There is a reason British advertising tends to use wordplay, cleverness and subtlety (as opposed to the rather more direct and straightforward adverts you see in places like America and Japan, which as far as I can tell just say "buy our product, it's great" in a not-very-interesting way). We are a naturally ornery and suspicious lot over here, and do not take kindly to self-proclaimed experts telling us what is best for us. We tend to remember and like adverts that make us think or laugh, or impress us with their style and wit.

Just seeing the crude bombast of puffed-up apologists plastered on the side of a bus will not go down well. Even worse, it's advertising a political party - if there's one thing we are even more suspicious of than corporate advertising it is politicians.

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10. Comment #335710 by epeeist on February 6, 2009 at 11:20 am

Interesting article on this here - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/feb/05/religion-christianity-christian-bus-ads

One of the comments that amused me was on the decision of the "Christian Party" to run in the European elections. It seems they have run in elections before, they came in behind the BNP.

As the comment said, if you come in behind the nazis then perhaps you ought be considering what this tells you.

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11. Comment #335713 by scottishgeologist on February 6, 2009 at 11:21 am

That Christian Party advert is adirect rip off of the "Probably" advert. Its so blatant its unreal.

This has to be the ultimate Flea trick. Imagine, an advert with its own fleas - these people must be getting desperate

As for the TBS advert - well at least it is the bible they are quoting. In all its depressing KJV-speak.... Just love the "hectoring" tone of these sorts of adds - "Prepare to meet thy God" and other pish like that

Sort of thing you would see on a man carrying a sandwich board up and down the street...

:-)
SG

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12. Comment #335716 by flying goose on February 6, 2009 at 11:22 am

I am now thinking that we should have an agnostic's bus campaign, 'We will probably never know, so let's talk about something else for a change, Religion and Politics, come on we're British.'

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13. Comment #335717 by Quetzalcoatl on February 6, 2009 at 11:22 am

Re the BHA response-

Exactly the right note to strike, I think.

EDIT-

The guy who runs the Christian Party is one of the priests who was on the absurd three-part series "Make Me A Christian" that ran on Channel 4 earlier in the year. Nobody was truly converted by the end of it, but the programme did do a good job of completely destroying his credibility.

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14. Comment #335718 by Sargeist on February 6, 2009 at 11:23 am

I love Richard's avatar!

The BHA's response is nicely worded, carefully considered, and so far far away from the vitriolic nonsense that I no doubt would have come up with.

Don't suppose you want to offer me a job, BHA? ;)

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15. Comment #335720 by scottishgeologist on February 6, 2009 at 11:23 am

Epeeist:

"As the comment said, if you come in behind the nazis then perhaps you ought be considering what this tells you. "

Hahah! Pwned by the BNP. FFS. That has to be the ultimate put down. Thats probably worse than getting your bum kicked by the Monster Raving Loonies. Actually, compared to the faith heads, the MLP speak tons of sense.

Screaming Lord Sutch - sadly missed!

:-)
SG

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16. Comment #335721 by Verylee on February 6, 2009 at 11:25 am

It is a bit amusing how the church was wittering away at how wonderful the 'atheist' bus ads were and that they welcomed the chance for people to think about it and that they were confident that the ads would only serve to swell their congregations (coffers), and then to see this knee jerk response just a few days later!
Methinks they ARE worried. Loss of sheep to fleece means loss of income, credibility, the lot.

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17. Comment #335722 by root2squared on February 6, 2009 at 11:25 am

Join the Christian "party"?

Hahahaha

God! These people are unimaginative!

What a dull slogan.

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18. Comment #335723 by Jack Rawlinson on February 6, 2009 at 11:26 am

Richard - great avatar!

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19. Comment #335724 by Eshto on February 6, 2009 at 11:27 am

Absolutely wonderful comments by Stinson.

And I also love Richard's avatar.

But can the religious group rip off the exact design and colors of the atheist ads like that? Isn't there a copyright issue there?

EDIT:

I agree. Howcum they get to say "definitely" and we don't.

Well maybe they can't, and it just requires that someone makes it an issue. But is a humanist going to be so ridiculous as to do the same thing those idiots tried to do?

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20. Comment #335725 by JAMCAM87 on February 6, 2009 at 11:27 am

Like the avatar Richard. The most dangerous man in the world though, surely.

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21. Comment #335727 by flying goose on February 6, 2009 at 11:28 am

Cartomancer

I rather suspect that we are suspicious of any expert these days, self proclaimed or not.

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22. Comment #335728 by righton on February 6, 2009 at 11:28 am

Wait, isn't this claiming a fact that is not provable? Shouldn't those advertising people be investigating this just like they did with ours?

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23. Comment #335729 by decius on February 6, 2009 at 11:29 am

We should collect funds ourselves for more christian busses, rigorously sporting scriptural quotations.
We could even pose as a christian association - the believers get to pay, but we choose the passages.

Strictly Leviticus and Second Samuel, of course.

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24. Comment #335731 by flying goose on February 6, 2009 at 11:29 am

Righton

Probably.

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25. Comment #335732 by popeye on February 6, 2009 at 11:29 am

agree. Howcum they get to say "definitely" and we don't ?

We don't say 'definitely' because we are rational and understand that it is not something that can yet be proved. They are just showing close-mindedness by not encouraging people to think for themselves.

I like what Hanne Stinson said. It makes us the better, more moral, people even if other people don't realize it.

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26. Comment #335733 by Quine on February 6, 2009 at 11:30 am

If the religious were required to prove their claims before they could inflict them upon the public, it would be over.

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27. Comment #335734 by MrPickwick on February 6, 2009 at 11:31 am

I think that quoting from the bible is a great idea.

"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." Numbers 31:17,18

Woudn't it be nice to see that on a bus?

Or this one:

"There definitely is a God. So join the Zoroastrian Party and enjoy your life."

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28. Comment #335735 by Jeppo on February 6, 2009 at 11:31 am

It was only a matter of time before the theists struck back & I for one am delighted with their response.

The anti - atheist ads are unfunny, arrogant & condescending. A spectacular own goal!

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29. Comment #335736 by righton on February 6, 2009 at 11:32 am

They had a problem with "probably". I think "definitely" should definitely be investigated. They should have to offer proof of this claim right?

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30. Comment #335737 by debaser71 on February 6, 2009 at 11:32 am

I would think it were a spoof or something but it's really just mean spirited and pathetic at the same time.

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31. Comment #335738 by Quetzalcoatl on February 6, 2009 at 11:33 am

Decius-

There are some juicy quotes in Numbers as well.

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32. Comment #335739 by scottishgeologist on February 6, 2009 at 11:33 am

Decius

In addition to those two places, there is a gem in Psalm 137:9

King James Bible
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Or in case the meaning isnt clear and you need it a bit plainer:

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock.

Lovely.

:-)
SG

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33. Comment #335741 by flying goose on February 6, 2009 at 11:33 am

Jeppo


As thay always are.

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34. Comment #335742 by Sargeist on February 6, 2009 at 11:34 am

If this hasn't made people slightly sick, the article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1136562/So-Blair-DOES-God-31-times-speech.html

has some of most stomach-turningly awful madness in it, spouted by a recently powerful individual.

The quote that actually worries me is:

'Thus the extreme believers and the aggressive non-believers come together in unholy alliance.'

This is why the atheist bus campaign has been so important. Wanting to be treated as people like any others seems to be seen as aggressive. Wanting absurd claims in religion to be treated like those made in the name of politics seems to be seen as aggressive.

I found myself actually starting to worry whether one day people with beliefs like mine will have to hide them for fear of serious repercussions. I know I'm exaggerating, but anyone who says:

From without, religious faith is assailed by an increasingly aggressive secularism, which derides faith as contrary to reason and defines faith by conflict.

without realising that a) faith is contrary to reason; and b) that secularism means that people like me aren't likely to be abducted and fried alive in a giant pan; is really a total arseface.

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35. Comment #335743 by Steve Zara on February 6, 2009 at 11:34 am

Comment #335729 by decius

That is an excellent idea. If I may add my suggestion for a slogan which would ideally be visible on a bus following such bible quotes:

"Atheism: Less embarrassing".

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36. Comment #335744 by Ian Bamlett on February 6, 2009 at 11:35 am

Comment #335734 by MrPickwick

Woudn't it be nice to see that on a bus'

Yes it would, except it would probably not be allowed on the grounds it was too unpleasant for a general audience - proving of course our morality today is far superior to that of a nasty old bronze age god.

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37. Comment #335745 by Lastandfirstmen on February 6, 2009 at 11:35 am

These fleas were very much expected - Are these ads definitely approved by the ASA?

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38. Comment #335747 by neanderslob on February 6, 2009 at 11:37 am

The best part of this whole ordeal is the complete lack of sensationalism on the part of the atheist campaign. Somehow when you replace probably with definitely, you lose the edge of honesty.

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39. Comment #335750 by flying goose on February 6, 2009 at 11:38 am

SG I have severe problems with that verse,

However I do remember an interview with a polish slave worker at the end of the second world war. who said that if one were to bring a german baby and smash its head, he would not try to stop you, when I heard this, and given my mother was a german baby at the the time, I took offence. I don't any more, who am I to judge him.

Context is everything. As the rest of psalm 137 will show you.

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40. Comment #335751 by scottishgeologist on February 6, 2009 at 11:39 am

OK, lets put up our own bible verses on buses. Which is it to be ' he most profane' The most violent' The most Ludicrous'

Better head off to SAB and get searching...

:-)
SG

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41. Comment #335752 by Dennis Sisterson on February 6, 2009 at 11:41 am

Definitely a case for the ASA, especially since they had complaints about the 'probably'. As for the other one, I'm with MrPickwick: if they can quote the Bible to serve their purposes, so can we.

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42. Comment #335754 by prettygoodformonkeys on February 6, 2009 at 11:48 am

Ok, here's a bus slogan:

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason." - Martin Luther, leader of the Reformation

Faith Stops Thought

Although, it singles out just one sect.....

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43. Comment #335755 by liberteraindemocrat on February 6, 2009 at 11:49 am

I am srong libertian, and have fought for rights everwhere, however I believe that the word "Probally" in the bus campign has weaken your agrument, firstly you say that all christians believe in the Old testament god, we do not, secondly the man in the cloud theory of god has been disproven so many times now that no right thinking christain supports it.

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44. Comment #335756 by Ai Deng on February 6, 2009 at 11:49 am

Personally, I think the following from Exodus has some potential as well.

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property"

Honestly though, I wonder what the reaction would really be to putting such a quote up. I bet some people would be like, 'The bible doesn't really say that?', while the real Liars for Jesus would spin it with a rage and fury.

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45. Comment #335757 by scottishgeologist on February 6, 2009 at 11:51 am

FG

The context of Psalm 137 is important as you point out - slavery in exile, longing for Jerusalem and fantasising about revenge.

7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
"Tear it down," they cried,
"tear it down to its foundations!"

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

The complete opposite of the "love your enemy" message of the New Testament. Still, the faith heads maintain that the whole thing works as a coherent whole.

:-)
SG

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46. Comment #335758 by Steve Zara on February 6, 2009 at 11:51 am

I have another suggestion. We place verses on buses and ask if they are mad enough to be truly biblical. I suggest we take the following from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life":

"he who brought the butter dish to Balshazar and the tent peg to the house of Rashomon, and there slew they the goats, yea, and placed they the bits in little pots."

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47. Comment #335760 by Verylee on February 6, 2009 at 11:55 am

if they can quote the Bible to serve their purposes, so can we.

I used to think that, but now I am not so sure. It could be seen as petty and snide, and also leave us open to ridicule for being deliberately antagonistic.
I think would be better to fight them with humour and ridicule. Ridicule is the best weapon, embarrasse them.
Find the most ridiculous and or witty riposte to their slogans. If it doesn't embarrasse them, it might make them smile!

Other Comments by Verylee

48. Comment #335762 by Patrick McArdle on February 6, 2009 at 11:55 am

In addition to the other nice comments made here, we should note the advert contains a whopping disconnect.

What if the god is Thor, who will whack you upside your head with His mighty hammer for worshipping that dead rabbi? What then?

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49. Comment #335763 by scottishgeologist on February 6, 2009 at 11:55 am

Or something from the "Book of Ehud" (Private Eye)

Sample here:

1. And lo, it came to pass that Ehud sent the mighty warriors of Israel, the sons and even the daughters of Israel, indeed all the children of Israel who could carry a sword or ride in an chariot of iron, into the land of Leb-a-non.

2. And Ehud spake unto the children of Israel in this wise: O children of Israel, the time hath come for the smiting that will end all smiting.

3. For too many years the Hez-boll-ites have been an thorn in our flesh, like unto the scorpion that creepeth up in the night and stingeth a man in his foot, yea, even before he can lay his hand upon the flip-flop beneath his bed in order to smite it dead.


Whole thing:

http://lebanonproxybattleground.blogspot.com/2006/08/book-of-ehud.html

:-))
SG

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50. Comment #335765 by OneNationUnderThor on February 6, 2009 at 11:56 am

"The fool hath said in his heart,
Jesus is God."

Let's see if that would fly.

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