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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Heat the Hornet

by Richard Dawkins

From The Times Literary Supplement, 11 Feb 2009

Why we really do need to know the amazing truth about evolution, and the equally amazing intellectual dishonesty of its enemies

Review of Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne

Richard Dawkins


Why evolution is trueHow can you say that evolution is “true”? Isn’t that just your opinion, of no more value than anybody else’s? Isn’t every view entitled to equal “respect”? Maybe so where the issue is one of, say, musical taste or political judgement. But when it is a matter of scientific fact? Unfortunately, scientists do receive such relativistic protests when they dare to claim that something is factually true in the real world. Given the title of Jerry Coyne’s book, this is a distraction that I must deal with.

A scientist arrogantly asserts that thunder is not the triumphal sound of God’s balls banging together, nor is it Thor’s hammer. It is, instead, the reverberating echoes from the electrical discharges that we see as lightning. Poetic (or at least stirring) as those tribal myths may be, they are not actually true.

But now a certain kind of anthropologist can be relied on to jump up and say something like the following: Who are you to elevate scientific “truth” so? The tribal beliefs are true in the sense that they hang together in a meshwork of consistency with the rest of the tribe’s world view. Scientific “truth” is only one kind (“Western” truth, the anthropologist may call it, or even “patriarchal”). Like tribal truths, yours merely hang together with the world view that you happen to hold, which you call scientific. An extreme version of this viewpoint (I have actually encountered this) goes so far as to say that logic and evidence themselves are nothing more than instruments of masculine oppression over the “intuitive mind”.

Listen, anthropologist. Just as you entrust your travel to a Boeing 747 rather than a magic carpet or a broomstick; just as you take your tumour to the best surgeon available, rather than a shaman or a mundu mugu, so you will find that the scientific version of truth works. You can use it to navigate through the real world. Science predicts, with complete certainty unless the end of the world intervenes, that the city of Shanghai will experience a total eclipse of the sun on July 22, 2009. Theories about the moon god devouring the sun god may be poetic, and they may cohere with other aspects of a tribe’s world view, but they won’t predict the date, time and place of an eclipse. Science will, and with an accuracy you could set your watch by. Science gets you to the moon and back. Even if we bend over backwards to concede that scientific truth is no more than that which enables you to pilot your way reliably, safely and predictably around the real universe, it is in exactly this sense that – at the very least – evolution is true. Evolutionary theory pilots us around biology reliably and predictively, with a detailed and unblemished success that rivals anything in science. The least you can say about evolutionary theory is that it works. All but pedants would go further and assert that it is true.

Whence, then, comes the oft-parroted canard, “Evolution is only a theory”? Perhaps from a misunderstanding of philosophers who assert that science can never demonstrate truth. All it can do is fail to disprove a hypothesis. Evolution is an unfalsified hypothesis – one that was vulnerable to falsification but has so far survived. Scientists generally don’t mind this kind of philosopher and even thank him for taking care of such matters, thereby freeing them to get on with advancing knowledge. They might, however, venture that what is sauce for the goose of science is sauce for the gander of everyday experience. If evolution is an unfalsified hypothesis, then so is every fact about the real world; so is the very existence of a real world.

This kind of conversation is swiftly and rightly sidelined. Evolution is true in whatever sense you accept it as true that New Zealand is in the Southern Hemisphere. If we refused ever to use a word like “true”, how could we conduct our day-to-day conversations? Or fill in a census form: “What is your sex?” “The hypothesis that I am male has not so far been falsified, but let me just check again”. As Douglas Adams might have said, it doesn’t read well. Yet the philosophy that imposes such scruples on science has no basis for absolving everyday facts from the same circumlocution. It is in this sense that evolution is true – provided, of course, that the scientific evidence for it is strong. It is very strong, and Professor Coyne displays it for us in a way that no objective reader could fail to find compelling.

Here I must anticipate another favourite accusation that will, as I know from personal experience, be plonkingly levelled against Coyne and his book: “Why bother? You are tilting at a dead horse, flogging windmills. Nobody takes creationism seriously, nowadays”. (Translation: “The Regius Professor of Theology at my University is no creationist, the Archbishop of Canterbury accepts evolution, therefore you are wasting your time arguing the case”.) The melancholy facts are these. Polls in both Britain and the United States show a majority wanting “intelligent design” to be taught in science classes. In Britain, according to MORI, only 69 per cent want evolution to be taught at all. In America, more than 40 per cent believe that “life on Earth has existed in its present form since the beginning of time” (Pew) and that “God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so” (Gallup).

Science teachers, especially in America but increasingly in Britain, feel beleaguered, and it is small comfort to them if a handful of theologians and bishops occasionally murmur a word of support for evolutionary science. Occasional murmurs are not enough. In October 2008, a group of about sixty American science teachers met to compare notes, at the Center for Science Education at Emory University in Atlanta, and they had some revealing experiences to relate. One teacher reported that students “burst into tears” when told they would be studying evolution. Another teacher described how students repeatedly screamed, “No!” when he began talking about evolution in class.

Such experiences are common throughout the United States, but also, I am loath to admit, in Britain. The Guardian reported that, in February 2006, “Muslim medical students in London distributed leaflets that dismissed Darwin’s theories as false”. The Muslim leaflets were produced by the Al-Nasr Trust, a registered charity with tax-free status. The British taxpayer, that is to say, is subsidizing the systematic distribution of scientific falsehood to educational institutions. Science teachers across Britain will confirm that they are coming under slight, but growing, pressure from creationist lobbies, usually inspired by American or Islamic sources.

So, let nobody have the gall to deny that Coyne’s book is necessary. Not just his book, and here I must declare an interest. February 12, 2009, is Charles Darwin’s 200th birthday, and the 150th anniversary of The Origin of Species falls this autumn. Publishers being as anniversary-minded as they are, Darwin-related books were obviously to be expected this year. Nevertheless, it is true to say that neither Jerry Coyne nor I was aware of the other’s book on the evidence for evolution when we began our own – his published now, mine in the autumn. And our two books may not be the only ones. Bring them on, I say. The more the merrier. The evidence is massive, the modern version of the story would surprise and inspire even Darwin, and it cannot be told too often. Evolution is, after all, the true story of why we all exist, and an exhilaratingly powerful and satisfying explanation. It supersedes – and devastates – all predecessors, no matter how devoutly and sincerely believed.

Why Evolution Is True is outstandingly good. Coyne’s knowledge of evolutionary biology is prodigious, his deployment of it as masterful as his touch is light. His coverage is enviably comprehensive, yet he simultaneously manages to keep the book compact and readable. His nine chapters include “Written in the Rocks”, laced with examples that make short work of the most popular of all creationist lies, the one about unbridgeable “gaps” in the fossil record: “Show me your intermediates!”, say the creationists. Jerry Coyne shows them, and very numerous and convincing they are. Not just fossils of large charismatic animals like whales and birds, and the coelacanth-cousins that made the transition from water to land, but also microfossils. These have the advantage of sheer numbers: some kinds of sedimentary rock are almost entirely made of the tiny fossilized skeletons of foraminiferans, radiolarians and other calcareous or siliceous protozoa. This means you can plot a sensitive graph of some chosen measurement, as a continuous function of geological time, while you systematically work your way through a core of sediments. One of Coyne’s graphs shows a genus of radiolarians (beautiful protozoans with minute, lantern-like shells) caught in the act, two million years ago, of “speciating” – splitting into two species.

Such splitting of one species into two is what Darwin’s title actually means, and it is one of the few weak areas in that great book. Jerry Coyne is probably today’s leading authority on speciation, and it is not surprising that his chapter called “The Origin of Species” is so good. So also is “The Geography of Life”. Possibly the most immediately convincing evidence against creationism is to be found in the geographical distribution of animals and plants, on continents and islands (in the broad sense, “islands” include lakes, mountain tops, oases – from an animal’s point of view any small area where it can live, surrounded by a larger area where it can’t). After setting out the voluminous evidence on the subject, Coyne concludes:

“Now try to think of a theory that explains the patterns we’ve discussed by invoking the special creation of species on oceanic islands and continents . . . . There are no good answers – unless, of course, you presume that the goal of a creator was to make species look as though they evolved on islands. Nobody is keen to embrace that answer, which explains why creationists simply shy away from island biogeography.”


Such dishonesty by omission is lamentably characteristic of creationists. They love fossils because they have been schooled, wrongly as Coyne shows, to believe that “gaps” in the fossil record are an embarrassment to evolutionary theorists. The geographical distribution of species really is an embarrassment to creationists – and they conspicuously ignore it.

The book includes a lucid exposition of natural selection at the level of the gene (knowing nothing of genes, Darwin expressed it at the level of the individual organism). Coyne describes how a parasitic worm changes the appearance and behaviour of its ant host, turning the ant’s abdomen into a simulacrum of a red berry, angled temptingly up in the air with carefully weakened stalk joining it to the thorax. You’ve guessed the sequel. The “berry”, full of worm eggs, is eaten by a bird, which is the definitive host of the worm. In Coyne’s own words:

“All of these changes are caused by the genes of the parasitic worm as an ingenious ploy to reproduce themselves . . . . It is staggering adaptations like this – the many ways that parasites control their carriers, just to pass on the parasites’ genes – that gets an evolutionist’s juices running.”


Very true. That kind of gene-centred “adaptationist” language has become all but universal among evolutionary biologists working in the field. It is amusing, therefore, to recall the overbearing hostility with which it was attacked thirty years ago by the dedicatee of Coyne’s book, his old teacher, the distinguished geneticist Richard Lewontin. It is not irrelevant that Coyne also has a very necessary clarification of the idea of the “selfish gene”, in which he correctly explains that it has no connection with spurious claims that we are deterministically hardwired to be selfish. Thirty years on, how things have changed.

Coyne’s chapter on “The Engine of Evolution” begins with a splendidly macabre example. Giant Japanese hornets raid the nests of honeybees to feed their larvae. A single hornet scout discovers a beehive and marks it “for doom” with a sort of chemical black spot.

“Alerted by the mark, the scout’s nestmates descend on the spot, a group of twenty or thirty hornets arrayed against a colony of up to 30,000 honeybees. But it’s no contest. Wading into the hive with jaws slashing, the hornets decapitate the bees one by one. With each hornet making heads roll at a rate of forty per minute, the battle is over in a few hours: every bee is dead, and body parts litter the hive. Then the hornets stock their larder.”


Coyne’s purpose in telling the story is to contrast the terrible fate of European bees, introduced into Japan, with native Japanese bees that have had time to evolve a defence.

“And their defense is stunning – another marvel of adaptive behavior. When the hornet scout first arrives at the hive, the honeybees near the entrance rush into the hive, calling nestmates to arms while luring the hornet inside. In the meantime, hundreds of worker bees assemble inside the entrance. Once the hornet is inside, it is mobbed and covered by a tight ball of bees. Vibrating their abdomens, the bees quickly raise the temperature inside the ball to about 117 degrees Fahrenheit. In twenty minutes the hornet scout is cooked to death, and – usually – the nest is saved.”


Coyne adds that the bees can survive the high temperature, but it is another insight of the “gene’s eye view” that this would not be necessary in order for natural selection to favour the adaptation. Worker bees are sterile: their genes survive, not in the workers themselves but as copies in the bodies of the minority of hive members destined for reproduction. If the workers in the centre of the ball were cooked alongside the hornet, it would be well worth the sacrifice. Copies of their genes “for cooking” live on.

There’s a good chapter on “Remnants, Vestiges, Embryos and Bad Design”, topics that Darwin himself treated well, and also on “How Sex Drives Evolution”, and on human evolution. But Coyne really comes into his own with another strand of powerful evidence that was not available to Darwin. The molecular genetics revolution, which began in 1953, would have taken Darwin’s breath away and filled him with exultation. Every living creature carries within each of its cells a voluminous textual recipe for making itself. Nowadays, we can read these messages, accurately and with a completeness that is limited only by (rapidly shrinking) costs and time. Because the DNA texts of all animals and plants use the identical four-letter code, we have a gold mine of opportunity for comparison. In his own time, Darwin could compare, say, the wing of a bat, the flipper of a whale and the spade of a mole, and spot the relationships among a handful of bones. Today – and more cheaply in the near tomorrows – we can do it on an altogether grander scale, lining up billion-letter DNA texts from bat, whale and mole, and literally counting the single-letter discrepancies and resemblances. Moreover, we don’t have to limit our comparisons to one group, such as the mammals. The universal genetic code allows us to make letter-for-letter textual comparisons across plants, snails and bacteria, as well as vertebrates. This not only provides evidence for the fact of evolution that is orders of magnitude more solid even than the powerful evidence Darwin could muster. We can also construct, finally and definitively, the complete tree of all life, the universal pedigree. And we can find, in huge numbers, the molecular equivalents of vestigial evolutionary relics like the human appendix and the kiwi’s wings.

For the genome is littered with dead genes. Huge wastes of DNA territory comprise a graveyard of discarded, superseded old genes (plus meaningless sequences of nonsense DNA that never functioned) with occasional islands of current, extant genes that are actually read by the translating machinery and turned into action. Dead, untranslated genes are called pseudogenes. The reason our sense of smell is poor, compared with, say, that of dogs, is that most of our ancestral genes for smelling have been rendered inactive. We still have them, but they are dead. Molecular biologists can still read them – serried ranks of molecular “fossils” – but the body does not.

It is wonderful enough that we can construct a tree of life based on active genes, and find that different genes agree on the same pedigree. It is even more convincing that we get the same pedigree with dead genes, whose DNA sequences represent nothing, and must be regarded only as the inert legacy of history. How would creationists explain that? How would they explain the very existence of pseudogenes? Why would the creator litter the genome with useless, untranslated variants of genes, and locate them, moreover, in exactly the right pattern around the animal and plant kingdoms to give the impression – the deceptive impression, as a creationist would presumably have to admit – that they evolved and were not created?

Coyne is right to identify the most widespread misunderstanding about Darwinism as the idea that, in evolution, “everything happens by chance”. This common claim is flat wrong – obviously wrong, transparently wrong, even to the meanest intelligence (a phrase that has me actively restraining myself). If evolution worked by chance, it obviously couldn’t work at all. Unfortunately, instead of working out that they have probably misunderstood evolution, creationists conclude, instead, that evolution must be false. This one misunderstanding, single-handed, accounts for much of the uncomprehending opposition to evolution that made it necessary for Jerry Coyne to write his book in the first place. The need was great; the execution is superb. Please read it.

Jerry Coyne
WHY EVOLUTION IS TRUE
309pp. Oxford University Press. £14.99 (US $27.95).
978 0 19 923084 6

Richard Dawkins has just retired as Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford. His most recent books are The Ancestor’s Tale, 2005, and The God Delusion, 2007.

Comments 1 - 50 of 620 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

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1. Comment #338727 by debacles on February 11, 2009 at 12:14 pm

 avatarI loved it. That bee defense made my week. Here's some footage of some unlucky European honeybees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mseXCMfBlYI

Other Comments by debacles

2. Comment #338729 by dniete97 on February 11, 2009 at 12:17 pm

Great review, Prof. Dawkins!

"Schools should at least teach the debate..."
There is no debate, there is no debate... There. Is. No. Debate.

Other Comments by dniete97

3. Comment #338730 by tvictor on February 11, 2009 at 12:20 pm

 avatarGreat article.
Just got another book queued up on my list.
I'm really looking forward to reading Richard's new book as well. I'll have to buy it from overseas because the translated version comes with a delay and I'm too eager to devour it ;)

EDIT to creationists: **If** there was a scientific debate it should be settled by scientists, not high-school children.

Other Comments by tvictor

4. Comment #338732 by JFHalsey on February 11, 2009 at 12:31 pm

Holy shit, I have to stop reading at the second paragraph and post right now to say that "God's balls banging together" has made me laugh out loud harder than anything I've read for a long time. What was this review published in'''

Other Comments by JFHalsey

5. Comment #338733 by Sally Luxmoore on February 11, 2009 at 12:32 pm

 avatarWow. I have recently bought this book and it is waiting to be read. I will get on with it asap (as soon as I have finished Your Inner Fish - also very good).
I hope that Jerry Coyne gets the chance to write a review of Richard's new book, when it comes out. I don't know if you two know each other, but there must be a lot that you'd have to talk about.
I'm delighted to see that Richard's book is due out in the Autumn - it will definitely be my birthday present to myself!

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

6. Comment #338735 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2009 at 12:39 pm

Cheers for the clip, debacles. Interesting.

Bloody annoying US-dramatic production though. Felt like World's Scariest Police Chases or somthing.

Give me Attenborough any day.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

7. Comment #338736 by BrandySpears on February 11, 2009 at 12:40 pm

 avatarmmmmmmmmm.... god's balls? Yaweh must have forgotten to put his celestial athletic supporter on.

Other Comments by BrandySpears

8. Comment #338737 by Russell Blackford on February 11, 2009 at 12:41 pm

Apropos of the last para, has anyone else checked ...

http://straightfromthesource.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/uvms-president-responds-to-questions-about-commencement-speaker-ben-stein/

... lately? As I write, the latest comment says:


Human beings have 60,000 miles of blood vessels in their body. How much science education does it take to believe this happened by chance and not by design? I am a design engineer (and have designed many piping systems) and would like to know. Think, don’t follow.



I almost bashed my head through the computer screen when I read such stupidity from an educated man with a more-or-less scientific background. This kind of thinking dies hard.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

10. Comment #338742 by epeeist on February 11, 2009 at 12:50 pm

 avatarComment #338734 by Mister Chong:
Most people, including the atheists posting on this website, do not enjoy learning about science. They're more interested in the latest episode of Big Brother -- or, in the case of people here, the stupidity of the creationists...
How do you know this? Or are you just spouting in the hope you will get a reaction?

Other Comments by epeeist

11. Comment #338748 by flying goose on February 11, 2009 at 12:57 pm

 avatarMister Chong.

Are you a scientist?

Other Comments by flying goose

12. Comment #338749 by Goldy on February 11, 2009 at 12:57 pm

 avatar
I have no idea why so many biologists feel the need to supplement themselves with Marxism, or militant atheism, or frothing-at-the-mouth anti-creationism. It is a disturbing trend. People aren't like this in the other natural sciences.
Not met the chemists I know then. As for a physicist I knew once...carnally, it has to be said...she outdid me in atheism.

So what you are basically saying is...and correct me if I am wrong...that trying to educate people in science is pointless as the hoi polloi will just accept evolution as they accept creationism? Basically, people are stupid and should just be allowed to live their lives and watch reality TV?
Dunno *looks around at PhD and masters students involved in cancer research sharing his office* - be a shame if some of these brains in my office right now were denied the ability to do what they can do all for the sake of not trying to teach them that science is correct.

Other Comments by Goldy

13. Comment #338750 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2009 at 12:58 pm

Mister Chong
People aren't like this in the other natural sciences.
What a fucking pathetic thing to say.

Religious folk are not carrying out expensive campaigns, including lobbying governments, which deny the claims of other scientists.

You think that if christians and muslims started denying the existence of quarks then physicists would keep quiet and allow baseless nonsense theories to be taught alongside theirs in schools?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

14. Comment #338751 by alovrin on February 11, 2009 at 12:58 pm

 avatarepeeist

"Or are you just spouting in the hope you will get a reaction? "

Either that or he's a "certain kind of anthropologist."

Other Comments by alovrin

15. Comment #338752 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2009 at 1:00 pm

Oh for fuck's sake. Why has Mr Chong's post been removed?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

16. Comment #338753 by Goldy on February 11, 2009 at 1:01 pm

 avatar
I know this community fairly well. I have not been impressed by the level of scientific knowledge exhibited here. Moreover, on this website I almost never encounter interesting discussions of scientific topics.

Given your comments of late, I dare say it is because you don't understand :-) And you have come here with your mind already made up - you don't like us. You never will and you'll be damned if you'll even try.
So....give us a flash of your brilliance.

Other Comments by Goldy

17. Comment #338754 by Muetze on February 11, 2009 at 1:02 pm

 avatarThis censorship is starting to worry my greatly. Chong's comment wasn't offensive, and it responded directly to the issue. If we are starting to silence people just because they voice an opposing opinion (I could see nothing else wrong with his post), I fear there might have been more truth to his post than I initially thought.

But everybody reading the page after now isn't going to find out WHAT he really wrote, are they?

Other Comments by Muetze

18. Comment #338755 by Mister Chong on February 11, 2009 at 1:02 pm

Mister Chong.

Are you a scientist?
Training to be one, though I'm of course not going to release personal details. I'm not making an argument from authority, I'm simply articulating a small observation.

Other Comments by Mister Chong

19. Comment #338756 by Goldy on February 11, 2009 at 1:02 pm

 avatar
Oh for fuck's sake. why has Mr Chong's post been removed'
I second that comment. Please reinstate it! He makes valid points.

Other Comments by Goldy

20. Comment #338757 by ahmunnaeetchoo on February 11, 2009 at 1:03 pm

Did Mister Chong actually read the review? it deals with his points in depth.

troll.

Other Comments by ahmunnaeetchoo

21. Comment #338758 by Goldy on February 11, 2009 at 1:05 pm

 avatarTraining to be one? Well, stick around - you'll learn a lot from us trained to be ones (note the tense).
As for personal details, you don't need to give any (mine are freely available on Facebook :-)) but it would help to know just a smidgen more. What field and what training. And we'll see what we can do to stop getting your comments send to the sin bin...

Other Comments by Goldy

22. Comment #338760 by Goldy on February 11, 2009 at 1:05 pm

 avatarComment #338757 by ahmunnaeetchoo
Let him prove he is a troll first. Evidence, remember. Not assumption.

Other Comments by Goldy

23. Comment #338762 by Sciros on February 11, 2009 at 1:06 pm

 avatarMister Chong's post must have been flagged as 'troll' a few times. That *is* why he's here, to troll, but I wonder if the comments should be "moved" or maybe just minimized instead (the way modded-down comments are in YouTube). Slashdot has another option -- set a personal "rating threshold" for displaying comments.

Anyway, very well-written review. I am glad these books are written, though I'm sure we all wish they didn't have to be ^_^

Other Comments by Sciros

24. Comment #338763 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2009 at 1:07 pm

Goldy

Exactly. Giving one's opinion is not trolling, even if another poster thinks it stems from ignorance.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

25. Comment #338764 by Vintro on February 11, 2009 at 1:08 pm

Would it not be better to start confronting moderate christians, (if there is such a thing) with the information Richard is delivering. Instead of always confronting the extreme end of believers in films and TV doco's. Surely if the the moderates could be persuaded to THINK, then the extremists would not have a leg to stand on. I just think it's pointless going up against wacko fundamentalists (although it does make for great, if not disturbing entertainment). I think we have a better chance of change in mindset, by educating believers who sit on the fence, as it were.

Other Comments by Vintro

26. Comment #338766 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2009 at 1:10 pm

Sciros

He doesn't like what he sees as militant atheism, and wants to put that view forward. That makes him a troll?

He may stir up discontent, because many disagree with him, but I see nothing wrong with the post that was removed on this thread.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

27. Comment #338767 by Tezcatlipoca on February 11, 2009 at 1:10 pm

 avatarJust put down the troll mix. I'd much rather talk about how Prof. Dawkins has given a wonderful review of Coyne's book Why Evolution is True. The parts about thunder being dog's bits banging together had me laughing out loud. I had heard of Japanese Hornets raiding hives but until now had not known that there was an evolved defense by native bees. Fascinating. I will be adding this book to my collection.

Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca

28. Comment #338769 by Goldy on February 11, 2009 at 1:12 pm

 avatarComment #338761 by Mister Chong
Why the need to adopt an indignant tone? You're but a trainee, not even a fully fledged scientist (and of a discipline we don't yet know).
Biologists have to confront cretinism (sic) as it strikes at the heart of our topic. Without knowing the rudiments of evolution, something simple like making vaccines would be impossible. If we didn't know why the vaccines used stopped working, we wouldn't be able to counter their lack of effective treatment by modification of the vaccine.

Other Comments by Goldy

29. Comment #338770 by Quine on February 11, 2009 at 1:12 pm

 avatarThank you, Richard, for this great review, and thank you especially for carefully presenting the philosophy of what constitutes truth without the implication so often seen that worrying about such things is foolish in and of itself. Of course, my order for the book is in and look forward, very much, to the read.

This review is so good, I am going to let you slide on using "living creature" where I would have rather seen "living thing" or "living being" but that is just me. :wink:

Other Comments by Quine

30. Comment #338771 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2009 at 1:12 pm

Tezcat
I'd much rather talk about how Prof. Dawkins has given a wonderful review of Coyne's book Why Evolution is True.
I do want to buy it now, after reading this. I'll be reading it and going "wow" every couple of pages I expect, if the excerpts above are anything to go by.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

31. Comment #338773 by Sciros on February 11, 2009 at 1:13 pm

 avatarBut isn't a key point of Richard's writing above that indeed the "wacko" creationist beliefs you're attributing to "extremists" shared by a significant portion of the population, if not the majority?

Of course the beliefs are not based on scientific grounds (thanks for that one Mister Chong, Captain Obvious >_>). That's why these books bring the science to the table! That's the whole point!

Other Comments by Sciros

32. Comment #338774 by ahmunnaeetchoo on February 11, 2009 at 1:13 pm

@ goldy

that's the very reason i concluded troll.

Baseless assertions about the type of people that post here is part of my evidence.

Other Comments by ahmunnaeetchoo

33. Comment #338775 by NewEnglandBob on February 11, 2009 at 1:15 pm

 avatarThanks for the review Richard.

I was just informed via e-mail that Coyne's book is waiting for me at the public library from my request. I will pick it up tomorrow.

The proof is in via fossils, genetics (DNA), embryology, anatomy and the study of living organisms. I recently read "Your Inner Fish" and found the same proofs there, along with great writing.

The comment #338734 by Mister Chong, now in the alternate thread, is just angry nonsense from a hater. I laugh at its uninformed tone and his disregard of evidence and critical thinking.

Other Comments by NewEnglandBob

34. Comment #338776 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2009 at 1:16 pm

Mr Chong - you do need to address my post #338750.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

35. Comment #338777 by Sciros on February 11, 2009 at 1:16 pm

 avatar
Sciros

He doesn't like what he sees as militant atheism, and wants to put that view forward. That makes him a troll?
No; his posting pattern and repetitive content makes him a troll.

Other Comments by Sciros

36. Comment #338779 by Goldy on February 11, 2009 at 1:17 pm

 avatar50?!? I'm 41, I'll have you know! Cheecky young whippersnapper! I only look older because of the sun...ahem!
You only get an angry mob after you if you incite them. If you want to partake of discussion (and who knows, learn something) then write as you would like to be written to. Easy peasy.
Some PhDs are not deserving of their degrees, I agree. But many are. Besides, as you alluded to, a PhD is a narrow narrow field of study. Not enough to occupy the brain in many case, hence the flights to other fields and topics, like religion and politics.
I have great memories of physicists... ;-) There's a few here too - but I don't "know" them in the same way :-D

Other Comments by Goldy

37. Comment #338781 by SteveN on February 11, 2009 at 1:18 pm

 avatarComment #338745 by Mister Chong

I have not been impressed by the level of scientific knowledge exhibited here. Moreover, on this website I almost never encounter interesting discussions of scientific topics.


Hmmm... Loki troll or just a normal troll? I can't really decide.


Edit: Good grief! Things move fast here!

Other Comments by SteveN

38. Comment #338782 by Sargeist on February 11, 2009 at 1:18 pm

 avatarI bought this the day it appeared in my local Waterstone's. I am looking forward to reading it. One day.

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39. Comment #338783 by NewEnglandBob on February 11, 2009 at 1:19 pm

 avatarMr Chong says he will not argue from authority and then argues from his so-called hidden authority.

He appears to be a combination of arrogance and ignorance. He has not shown one bit of evidence to back up his outrageous spewings.

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40. Comment #338785 by Shuggy on February 11, 2009 at 1:20 pm

 avatarWhat's a Loki troll?

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41. Comment #338786 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2009 at 1:20 pm

Sciros

As far as I know he posted recently some contrary bullshit about the bushfires. Looked like reactionary student stuff. I'm sure he'll get over it.

Then he comes over here with some other hotheaded opinions. He's wrong again. Bad luck for him.

I don't really see the repetition though, and have no idea what pattern can be gleaned and interpreted from his posts.

All I know is, a lot of people don't agree with him, so he has been classed as a "hater" and relegated to alt. status.

It doesn't look good.

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42. Comment #338787 by Mister Chong on February 11, 2009 at 1:21 pm

Enough of this "troll" nonsense, please. I am making points of substance here. Respond to any points I make that are worth responding to, and please cease speculating about my motive.

You think that if christians and muslims started denying the existence of quarks then physicists would keep quiet and allow baseless nonsense theories to be taught alongside theirs in schools?
They don't deny the existence of quarks, but they sure as shit don't respect the physicists' cosmological turf. Christians and Muslims think they know more about cosmology than people trained in general relativity and string theory. Yet where is the physics version of Pharygnula -- a website almost exclusively devoted to sneering at the religious?

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43. Comment #338788 by Goldy on February 11, 2009 at 1:21 pm

 avatarLoki is a malevolent god. Killed Balder.

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44. Comment #338791 by Frankus1122 on February 11, 2009 at 1:23 pm

 avatarPlease do not 'troll-button' Mr. Chong's posts.
He has some really ill conceived points to make.
Please let him make them and whither in the heat of reason.


Most people, including the atheists posting on this website, do not enjoy learning about science. They're more interested in the latest episode of Big Brother -- or, in the case of people here, the stupidity of the creationists...


Baseless assertion.

There isn't much of a point to this persistently nagging pro-evolution activism. The truth is that most people simply don't care. Most people who do accept evolution know almost nothing about evolutionary biology, and I fail to see what differentiates such people from creationists (apart from responses in the occasional pointless poll).


Did you read the article ? Seriously.
I believe the questions you raised were answered. You may want to do a reread.

In addition, they have thought very, very little about their professed beliefs on evolution, and even science in general. The theory of evolution is NOTHING to these people (and I'm talking about upward of 90% of the population).


Can you give me some links to the sites that support these statistics ?

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45. Comment #338792 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2009 at 1:25 pm

Mister Chong
Christians and Muslims think they know more about cosmology than people trained in general relativity and string theory.
Do they put forward some other theory, and campaign for this to be taught in schools? Do they open up museums for children which teach nonsense about physics? Do they start websites which teach similar nonsense, and attack physicists' theories from every angle they can think of? Do they use whatever reseources and funding they can find to spread ignorance of cosmology and particles?

No. But they do all this when it comes to evolution. Its a concerted and global campaign, which biologists are duty bound to fight in the name of education and truth.

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46. Comment #338794 by aquilacane on February 11, 2009 at 1:25 pm

 avatarImage and video hosting by TinyPic

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47. Comment #338795 by Goldy on February 11, 2009 at 1:26 pm

 avatarComment #338787 by Mister Chong
Well, that's the thing. Darwin's theory of evolution is denied and they want to stop it being taught. The theory of gravity, ont he other hand, isn't. Neither, funnily enough, is heliocentrism - though give them time, give them time....after all, the holy books state clearly that the sun goes around the Earth....
Nope - cretinists attack biology because it...well, I don't know...but it appears that to them it lessens their difference to the other animals. Even you have to see how hard biology - evolution in particular - is being attacked.
No one is going to attack physics because no one really understands it. At least, I never did. And it is one of the fields used by cretinists to attack evolution.
I believe geology will be the next target once the complacent allow biology to be dismantled...

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48. Comment #338796 by Sargeist on February 11, 2009 at 1:26 pm

 avatarMister Chong,

The blog "Cosmic Variance" does have some rather nicely sarky and biting things to say about religion. Not all the time, but a fair proportion of the time. Sean Carroll has become one of my favourites because he don't take no shit.

Other Comments by Sargeist

49. Comment #338797 by PJG on February 11, 2009 at 1:26 pm

 avatarI've just finished Jerry Coyne's book. The book is fine, an easy read. But I have a criticism ...

When someone believes that evolution cannot be true because it involves a fish growing legs so it can walk onto the land or (a la "Creature Comforts"*) that the theory assumes a person would grow wings if he "threw himself off a tall building enough times", it is not helpful if, in a book like Coyne's, the following is on page 19 of the introduction:

"We are observing species splitting into two, and finding more and more fossils capturing change in the past - dinosaurs that have sprouted feathers, fish that have grown limbs, reptiles turning into mammals".

Anyone who understands the concept knows what he means - and I can't see how anyone who really understands it could fail to accept the theory of evolution. However, anyone who is labouring under the misapprehension that evolution predicts a crocoduck, will have his "understanding" of the process supported by this language.

If books are to be written debunking creationist nonsense, then any talk about creatures "transforming" into new species has to be addressed, not in the language of the educated, but in language that cannot be misinterpreted.

I doubt any creationist will read it so I don't suppose it will matter, but when we know how dishonest creationists are and that their penchant for quote-mining knows no bounds, it is a shame to hand them this sort of thing on a plate.


* http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=1334196

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50. Comment #338798 by Corylus on February 11, 2009 at 1:27 pm

 avatarRichard, thank you for the review... and thank you Dr Coyne for this:
Such dishonesty by omission is lamentably characteristic of creationists. They love fossils because they have been schooled, wrongly as Coyne shows, to believe that “gaps” in the fossil record are an embarrassment to evolutionary theorists. The geographical distribution of species really is an embarrassment to creationists – and they conspicuously ignore it.
I freely admit that I hadn't considered this point before. Lots to think about here and - I suspect - much more after I have read the book.

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