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Wednesday, April 22, 2009 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Truckling to the Faithful: A Spoonful of Jesus Helps Darwin Go Down

by Jerry Coyne

This is the entire text but there are additional links to sources on his site.
/Mike

Reposted from
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/truckling-to-the-faithful-a-spoonful-of-jesus-helps-darwin-go-down/
For if we ever begin to suppress our search to understand nature, to quench our own intellectual excitement in a misguided effort to present a united front where it does not and should not exist, then we are truly lost.
–Stephen Jay Gould


If you’re a regular at this website, you’ve heard me complain about scientific organizations that sell evolution by insisting that it’s perfectly consistent with religion. Evolution, they say, threatens many peoples’ religious views — not just the literalism of Genesis, but also the morality that supposedly emanates from scripture. Professional societies like the National Academy of Sciences — the most elite organization of American scientists — have concluded that to make evolution palatable to Americans, you must show that it is not only consistent with religion, but also no threat to it. (And so much the better if, as theologians like John Haught assert, evolution actually deepens our faith.) Given that many members of such organizations are atheists, their stance of accommodationism appears to be a pragmatic one.

Here I argue that the accommodationist position of the National Academy of Sciences, and especially that of the National Center for Science Education, is a self-defeating tactic, compromising the very science they aspire to defend. By seeking union with religious people, and emphasizing that there is no genuine conflict between faith and science, they are making accommodationism not just a tactical position, but a philosophical one. By ignoring the significant dissent in the scientific community about whether religion and science can be reconciled, they imply a unanimity that does not exist. Finally, by consorting with scientists and philosophers who incorporate supernaturalism into their view of evolution, they erode the naturalism that underpins modern evolutionary theory.

Let’s begin with a typical accommodationist statement—this one from the National Academy of Sciences:

Acceptance of the evidence for evolution can be compatible with religious faith. Today, many religious denominations accept that biological evolution has produced the diversity of living things over billions of years of Earth’s history. Many have issued statements observing that evolution and the tenets of their faiths are compatible. Scientists and theologians have written eloquently about their awe and wonder at the history of the universe and of life on this planet, explaining that they see no conflict between their faith in God and the evidence for evolution. Religious denominations that do not accept the occurrence of evolution tend to be those that believe in strictly literal interpretations of religious texts.


This at least recognizes some conflict between evolution and fundamentalist faiths, but downplays it. The National Academy website also includes three statements by religious scientists, Kenneth Miller, Father George Coyne of the Vatican, and Francis Collins, averring no conflict between the Gouldian magisteria.

There are no statements by anyone who sees faith and science as in conflict. This is not because those people don’t exist: after all, there are plenty of scientists and philosophers, including myself, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, P. Z. Myers, Dan Dennett, A. C. Grayling, and Peter Atkins, who feel strongly that science and religion are incompatible ways of viewing the world. Several of these people have written books to that effect. Apparently the NAS prefers to ignore this dissent.

When a professional organization makes such strong statements about the compatibility of science and faith, and ignores or gives but a polite nod to the opposing view, that organization is endorsing a philosophy. This goes beyond saying that evolution is true. The NAS is saying that most religious people and scientists have no problem with evolution and faith. Given that 40% of Americans reject evolution outright (almost entirely on religious grounds), while 92% of NAS scientists reject the idea a personal god, the National Academy is clearly pushing its agenda in defiance of evidence.

Among professional organizations that defend the teaching of evolution, perhaps the biggest offender in endorsing the harmony of science and faith is The National Center for Science Education. Although one of their officers told me that their official position on faith was only that “we will not criticize religions,” a perusal of their website shows that this is untrue. Not only does the NCSE not criticize religion, but it cuddles up to it, kisses it, and tells it that everything will be all right.

In the rest of this post I’d like to explore the ways that, I think, the NCSE has made accommodationism not only its philosophy, but its official philosophy. This, along with their endorsement and affiliation with supernaturalist scientists, philosophers, and theologians, inevitably corrupts their mission.

Let me first affirm that I enormously admire the work of the NCSE and of its director, Eugenie Scott and its president, Kevin Padian. They have worked tirelessly to keep evolution in the schools and creationism out, most visibly in the Dover trial. But they’re also active at school-board hearings and other venues throughout the country, as well as providing extensive resources for the rest of us in the battle for Darwin. They are the good guys.

So why am I using this space to criticize the organization? I suppose it’s because I feel that in its battle against creationism, the NCSE should represent all evolutionary biologists. But they are not representing a lot of us when they nuzzle up to theologians and vigorously push the harmony of science and religion. In effect, they’re pretending that the many people who disagree with their philosophical message don’t exist. Yet they can afford to ignore us because, in the end, where else can we atheists go for support against creationists?

The pro-religion stance of the NCSE is offensive and unnecessary — a form of misguided pragmatism. First, it dilutes their mission of spreading Darwinism, by giving credibility to the views of scientists and theologians who are de facto creationists, whether they admit it or not. Second, it departs from their avowed mission to be philosophically neutral. Third, it disingenuously pretends that evolution poses absolutely no threat to faith, or conflicts with faith in any way.

None of this would be a problem if the NCSE would just stick to its avowed mission and “neutral” stance toward religion.

What is this mission? As stated on one of its webpages:

What does NCSE do?

The National Center for Science Education, founded in 1981, engages in a number of activities advancing two primary goals: improving and supporting education in evolution and the nature of science, and increasing public understanding of these subjects.


If they just did this, there would be no problem. So do they have to engage with faith to advance the teaching of evolution? Apparently not, at least if you look at their religious position on the same page:

What is NCSE’s religious position?

None. The National Center for Science Education is not affiliated with any religious organization or belief. We and our members enthusiastically support the right of every individual to hold, practice, and advocate their beliefs, religious or non-religious. Our members range from devout practitioners of several religions to atheists, with many shades of belief in between. What unites them is a conviction that science and the scientific method, and not any particular religious belief, should determine science curriculum.


This stance of religious—and philosophical!–neutrality is underscored by a speech given by Eugenie Scott:

I think we make a grave error when we confuse philosophical views derived from science — even those we support — with science itself. . . .

I must say, though, that over the last several months I have presented lectures at several universities and two meetings of professional scientists in which I have argued that a clear distinction must be drawn between science as a way of knowing about the natural world and science as a foundation for philosophical views. One should be taught to our children in school, and the other can optionally be taught to our children at home.


But despite their avowed commitment to not mixing philosophy with science, an important part of the NCSE’s activities is its “Faith Project,” whose director is the theologically trained Peter M. J. Hess. This project appears to be devoted entirely to the philosophical position that evolution need not conflict with “proper” faith. Among the pages of this project is Hess’s statement, in “Science and Religion”:

In public discussions of evolution and creationism, we are sometimes told that we must choose between belief in creation and acceptance of the theory of evolution, between religion and science. But is this a fair demand? Must I choose only one or the other, or can I both believe in God and accept evolution? Can I both accept what science teaches and engage in religious belief and practice? This is a complex issue, but theologians, clergy, and members of many religious traditions have concluded that the answer is, unequivocally, yes.


You can’t get much more explicit than this. To those of us who hold contrary views, including the idea that religion is dangerous, this logic sounds like this:

We are sometimes told that we must choose between smoking two packs a day and pursuing a healthy lifestyle. Many cigarette companies, however, hold unequivocally that no such choice is necessary.

More accommodationism rears its head in the section called “How Do I read the Bible? Let Me Count the Ways”:

Contrary to what biblical literalists argue, the Bible was not intended by its authors to teach us about science — which did not exist at the time the Hebrew oral traditions were set in writing as the Book of Genesis. The Bible does not teach us the literal truths that the earth is flat, or that a global flood once covered Mt. Everest, or that we inhabit a geocentric cosmos, or that the world was created as we now observe it in six solar days, or that species were specially created in their present form and have not changed since the days of creation.

Rather, the Bible can be read as a record of one particular people’s developing moral relationship with the God in whom they placed their trust. As such, it enshrines timeless ideals about the integrity of creation and human responsibility within that creation. For biblical believers, part of that responsibility is using the gift of human rationality to discover the exciting story of how life ― including human life ― has developed on the earth.


Well, the Bible wasn’t intended to teach us about science, but it was intended to be an account of where life came from, and it is still read that way by a huge number of Americans. What gives the NCSE the right, or the authority, to suggest how people interpret the Bible?

The “recommended books” page of the NCSE’s religion section gives the same one-sided view. The section on “Theology, Evolution, and Creation” lists 36 books. Every one of them appears to offer an accommodationist viewpoint. Another 38 books appear (on the same page) in a “related themes in science and religion” section on the same page. In both section we find all the familiar names: Francis Collins, John Haught, Kenneth Miller, Michael Ruse, Simon Conway Morris, John Polkinghorne, Joan Roughgarden, and so on — accommodationists all. There are no books by Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, A.C. Grayling, and all those who have criticized the science-faith concordat.

As is usual in accommodationist literature, when the neo-atheist evolutionists are mentioned, they are done so dismissively, and held partially responsible for arousing anti-evolution sentiment:

When scientists such as William Provine and Richard Dawkins present philosophical materialism as the inevitable outgrowth of science or evolution (Dawkins 1987; Provine 1989) they reinforce the view encouraged by Morris and other antievolutionists that “one cannot be an evolutionist and a Christian.”


Perhaps most telling, the NCSE markets, as “staff publications,” some books that apparently show how religion and science can live happily together. Take a look at the page on which you’re supposed to sign up as an NCSE member. There you’ll find the “staff publication” Catholicism and Science, by Peter M. J. Hess (director of the “Faith Project”). By advertising the book in this way the NCSE is saying, “here’s our point of view.” What is the point of view of Catholicism and Science? The book is so new that I haven’t seen it, but here’s the description on Amazon:

When most people think about Catholicism and science, they will automatically think of one of the famous events in the history of science — the condemnation of Galileo by the Roman Catholic Church. But the interaction of Catholics with science has been — and is — far more complex and positive than that depicted in the legend of the Galileo affair. Understanding the natural world has always been a strength of Catholic thought and research — from the great theologians of the Middle Ages to the present day — and science has been a hallmark of Catholic education for centuries.

Of course this doesn’t mention that the Catholic church itself has gone back and forth on the veracity of evolution. Pope John Paul II, for example, declared that God inserted a soul somewhere in the lineage between Australopithecus and Homo. (Scott mentions this view, albeit only in passing, in an essay “Creationists and the Pope’s Statement.” But Dr. Scott’s long discussion of the position of the Catholic Church is celebratory, completely ignoring how the views of many Catholic contravene everything we know about human evolution.

Digging deeper into the NCSE site, one finds it riddled with strange lucubrations about religion. For example, in an essay by Phila Borgeson called “Is There Two-Way Traffic on the Bridge? Why ‘Intelligent Design’ is not Fruitful Theologically,” one finds this:

The little we know about God from “intelligent design” is not congruent with an understanding of God that takes Hebrew and Christian scriptures seriously. . . In Christian scripture, the central way in which God is related to his creation is, of course, through Christ’s redemption of the suffering of the world. Out of this emerges a theodicy that embraces as the price of the freedom God has bestowed on creation what we often read as the cruelty and caprice of nature. A designer God, though, must also be the designer of pain and death. In theological terms, “intelligent design” offers no articulation of how salvation is accomplished and constructs a God that is hard to square with the God who is steadfast love and suffering servant. George Murphy, working within his Lutheran tradition, has placed much emphasis on a theology of the cross as central to an understanding of God’s interaction with creation (Murphy 2002, 2003). Jürgen Moltmann stresses God’s suffering with God’s people, drawing on the Hebrew concept of shekinah and the kabbalistic concept of zimzum along with the Christian understanding of the kenosis (self-emptying) of God (Moltmann 2001). WH Vanstone pointed out in prose and hymn that the image of God as a creator, omnipotently, serenely, and detachedly presiding, then occasionally condescending to manipulate things to his will, is totally incongruent with what Christians know in the divine self-emptying of Christ (Vanstone 1977).


Zimzum? Can somebody please tell me what on earth this tedious exegesis has to do with science education?

But my main beef is this: the NCSE touts, shelters, or gives its imprimatur to intellectuals and scientists who are either “supernaturalists” (the word that A. C. Grayling uses for those who see supernatural incursions into the universe) or who have what Dan Dennett calls “belief in belief”—the idea that while religion may be based on false beliefs, those beliefs are themselves good for society. (Among the former are Kenneth Miller and John Haught, the latter Michael Ruse and Francisco Ayala). Both of these attitudes draw the NCSE away from its primary mission of promoting evolutionary biology, and push it into the hinterlands of philosophy and theology.

I have discussed Kenneth Miller’s views on evolution before, in particular his explicit Catholic theism (i.e., God interacts directly with the world), and his speculation that these interactions may occur through perturbations in subatomic particles. He has also floated the idea that God set up the laws of physics so that they were particularly propitious for the appearance of life on Earth, and so made inevitable the appearance of highly intelligent beings who could apprehend and worship their creator. Miller’s theism is also reflected in his published statements such as the following:

In reality, the potential for human existence is woven into every fiber of that universe, from the starry furnaces that forged the carbon upon which life is based, to the chemical bonds that fashioned our DNA from the muck and dust of this rocky planet. Seems like a plan to me.


And this:

. . . . .the God that we know through Christianity is not someone who acts like an ordinary human being, who simply happens to be endowed with supernatural powers. We are talking about a being whose intelligence is transcendent; we’re talking about a being who brought the universe into existence, who set up the rules of existence, and uses those rules and that universe and the natural world in which we live to bring about his will.


As both Massimo Pigliucci (a biologist and philosopher at Stony Book) and I have noted, this kind of talk comes perilously close to intelligent design; indeed, it may well be a form of intelligent design. If God “uses rules” to bring about his will, then evolution cannot be undirected.

John Haught, another person who appears frequently on the NCSE website (and was also a religious witness in the Dover trial), has an equally teleological view of evolution. In his accommodationist books God After Darwin and the more recent Deeper than Darwin, he espouses a teleology in which evolution is ineluctably drawn by God to some future point of perfection. In God after Darwin, he approvingly cites (p. 83) the Jesuit philosopher Teilhard de Chardin’s suggestion:

. . . . that a metaphysically adequate explanation of any universe in which evolution occurs requires — at some point beyond the limits that science has set for itself — a transcendent force of attraction to explain the overarching tendency of matter to evolve toward life, mind, and spirit.


But any injection of teleology into evolutionary biology violates precisely the great advance of Darwin’s theory: to explain the appearance of design by a purely materialistic process — no deity required. In a letter to his mentor Charles Lyell, Darwin explicitly decried the idea of divine intervention in evolution:

I entirely reject, as in my judgment quite unnecessary, any subsequent addition ‘of new powers and attributes and forces,’ or of any ‘principle of improvement, except in so far as every character which is naturally selected or preserved is in some way an advantage or improvement, otherwise it would not have been selected. If I were convinced that I required such additions to the theory of natural selection, I would reject it as rubbish. . . I would give absolutely nothing for the theory of Natural Selection, if it requires miraculous additions at any one stage of descent.


If we’re to defend evolutionary biology, we must defend it as a science: a nonteleological theory in which the panoply of life results from the action of natural selection and genetic drift acting on random mutations.

The directors of the NCSE are smart people. They know perfectly well — as did Darwin himself — that evolutionary biology is and always has been a serious threat to faith. But try to find one acknowledgment of this incompatibility on their website. No, all you’ll find there is sweetness and light. Indeed, far from being a threat to faith, evolution seems to reinforce it! Is it disingenuous to be a personal atheist, as some NCSE officials are, and yet tell others that their faith is compatible with science? I don’t know. But the NCSE’s pragmatism has taken it far outside its mandate. Their guiding strategy seems to be keep Darwin in the schools by all means necessary.

Am I grousing because, as an atheist and a non-accommodationist, my views are simply ignored by the NAS and NCSE? Not at all. I don’t want these organizations to espouse or include my viewpoint. I want religion and atheism left completely out of all the official discourse of scientific societies and organizations that promote evolution. If natural selection and evolution are as powerful as we all believe, then we should devote our time to making sure that they are more widely and accurately understood, and that their teaching is defended. Those should be the sole missions of the National Academy of Sciences and the National Center for Science Education. Leave theology to the theologians.

Comments 1 - 50 of 180 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

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1. Comment #368093 by Richard Dawkins on April 22, 2009 at 8:01 am

 avatarCongratulations Jerry. This REALLY needed to be said.

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

2. Comment #368101 by MAJORPAIN on April 22, 2009 at 8:06 am

I am torn on this issue. The overwhelming fear of evolution as a threat to someone's christianity can make them not want to learn a letter about evolution. I have taken this route with people myself, saying evolution is no threat...you can believe in god and still see that maybe evolution is his mechanism for creating the diversity we see in the world. I have had at least one of these acquaintances go on to study up on evolution and as he began to understand it, he admitted that god had no place in it. A chink in the old armour. However, it is intellectually cowardly to do this, I know.

In other words, I don't have an answer!

Other Comments by MAJORPAIN

3. Comment #368105 by Steve Zara on April 22, 2009 at 8:13 am

Comment #368101 by MAJORPAIN

However, it is intellectually cowardly to do this, I know.


The problem isn't that it is cowardly. The problem is that stating that there is no conflict between science and faith is untrue. Starting off science education with untruths is not a good idea. It can lead to mistrust later, for one thing.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4. Comment #368107 by ANTIcarrot on April 22, 2009 at 8:13 am

 avatarSometimes political horse trading, however dirty it makes you feel, is actually the best course of action. America has nukes and a population that almost completely rejects critical thinking. That's an incredibly dangerous combination.

Anything which reduces that danger (EG: making critical thinking more palatable to the ignorant majority) is a good idea. As long as you don't take things too far.

Other Comments by ANTIcarrot

5. Comment #368110 by Styrer- on April 22, 2009 at 8:15 am

Excellent piece. My confidence in Professor Coyne's stance on NOMA took a knock recently following one of his recent articles shown here, but that confidence is now completely restored and has risen to a new level. Marvellous stuff, and music to my ears.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

6. Comment #368120 by Russell Blackford on April 22, 2009 at 8:24 am

Jerry is absolutely right. Good science teaching, and advocacy of good science teaching, should be religion blind and simply concentrate on the evidence for evolution, as Jerry's own book does.

The NAS and NCSE should ignore the implications, one way or another, for religion. Whether or not the evolutionary picture is consistent with orthodox Christianity, or Zeus worship, or the cult of the ultramontane Juju, is not a matter that science organisations should purport to decide.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

7. Comment #368126 by root2squared on April 22, 2009 at 8:27 am

 avatar
Not only does the NCSE not criticize religion, but it cuddles up to it, kisses it, and tells it that everything will be all right.


True, and very gross.

Third, it disingenuously pretends that evolution poses absolutely no threat to faith, or conflicts with faith in any way.


Well, it's not just evolution. Science itself conflicts with faith. Evidence vs belief without evidence. The NCSE is based on a philosophy that is in complete conflict with religion.

Other Comments by root2squared

8. Comment #368128 by rod-the-farmer on April 22, 2009 at 8:27 am

 avatarI agree, This needed to be pointed out. Unlike the song, "You CAN'T have one without the other."

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

9. Comment #368149 by joemerbs on April 22, 2009 at 8:41 am

 avatarFirst time commenter, long time lurker:
Exactly. The official stance of the NAS and the NCSE should be the first half of Professor Miller's first book, and not the second half. Overwhelm people with the evidence, then let them make up their own mind on supernaturalism (and we all know where that road leads). Which is what Professor Coyne's book is meant to do.

Other Comments by joemerbs

10. Comment #368166 by jshuey on April 22, 2009 at 8:55 am

 avatarScientists know better than anyone else what the implications of our accumulated knowledge are. Why pretend otherwise?

To state outright that evolution, physics, and other sciences absolutely negates the Abrahamic god and thus all of the damaging claims of both the old and new testaments does no harm to a broad range of spirituality-based beliefs, including a humanistic-based christianity.

It's the 21st century...time to move on...and if science can't assist with changing our culture and philosophy for the better, what will?

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11. Comment #368169 by root2squared on April 22, 2009 at 9:00 am

 avatarI had no idea that the ncse was kissing so much theological ass. Quite disgraceful that they are betraying and denigrating science in this fashion.

The right response to people who are worried that evolution conflicts with their faith should be

"Science works and evolution is true. If you don't want to learn it, then fuck off".

Other Comments by root2squared

12. Comment #368174 by Mark Jones on April 22, 2009 at 9:05 am

 avatarWow, this is frightening stuff. Well said Jerry Coyne, once again. His blog is required reading.

Other Comments by Mark Jones

13. Comment #368183 by squinky on April 22, 2009 at 9:20 am

 avatarWell done Jerry! I am loving articles written by the Reason Project's board.

As a practical matter I do worry about Majorpain's point. If we're being completely honest and freely admit that evolution and science contradicts all religious tales of origin, design, divine intervention, and prayer (which is true) then it seems that religionists will not be accomodationist to scientists. I would predict that the undereducated masses would start to reject science and science teaching as trying to promote an atheist ideology in their children.

Removal the religious philosophy posted on the NAS and NCSE websites is a good start. In this religious culture war, will the zeitgeist tilt in favor of truth or fiction£ While I have my doubts, we must all fight the good fight.

Other Comments by squinky

14. Comment #368184 by eh-theist on April 22, 2009 at 9:21 am

 avatarAwesome! Thank you Jerry!

Larry Moran http://sandwalk.blogspot.com has been expressing concern with the accommodationist approach.

Articles like this are so necessary.

Other Comments by eh-theist

15. Comment #368187 by zengardener on April 22, 2009 at 9:23 am

 avatarThis needs to be said.
If the religious believe that evolution can coexist with theology, they are not very likely to investigate evolution. They will not likely question their faith. We live in an incredibly complex world made possible by science, so when the scientists say, "There is a direct conflict" people just might listen. We need people to think critically and this cozy acceptance is not helping.

Yesterday at work a coworker noticed my copy or The Origin Of Species and told me that "Scientist make up the tests and then call the results facts. They have all bought into the idea." It was a frustrating conversation. I asked how he could accept all of the proven scientific advancements and still reject evolution. "divine intervention"
apparently God created man 6,000 years ago, and this from a young man of 21.

Scientists need to stand together and reject this nonsense as a failed hypothesis.

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16. Comment #368197 by Richard Dawkins on April 22, 2009 at 9:32 am

 avatarI have from time to time expressed sympathy for the accommodationist tendency so ably criticized here by Jerry Coyne. I have occasionally worried that – just maybe – Eugenie Scott and the appeasers might have a point, a purely political point but one, nevertheless, that we should carefully consider. I have lately found myself moving away from that sympathy.

I suspect that most of our regular readers here would agree that ridicule, of a humorous nature, is likely to be more effective than the sort of snuggling-up and head-patting that Jerry is attacking. I lately started to think that we need to go further: go beyond humorous ridicule, sharpen our barbs to a point where they really hurt.

Michael Shermer, Michael Ruse, Eugenie Scott and others are probably right that contemptuous ridicule is not an expedient way to change the minds of those who are deeply religious. But I think we should probably abandon the irremediably religious precisely because that is what they are – irremediable. I am more interested in the fence-sitters who haven’t really considered the question very long or very carefully. And I think that they are likely to be swayed by a display of naked contempt. Nobody likes to be laughed at. Nobody wants to be the butt of contempt.

You might say that two can play at that game. Suppose the religious start treating us with naked contempt, how would we like it? I think the answer is that there is a real asymmetry here. We have so much more to be contemptuous about! And we are so much better at it. We have scathingly witty spokesmen of the calibre of Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris. Who have the faith-heads got, by comparison? Ann Coulter is about as good as it gets. We can’t lose!

If you can bear to listen to him, take, as an example of a typical faith-head trying to be contemptuous, David Bentley Hart, whose radio interview happened to be posted here at the same time as Jerry’s article.
http://richarddawkins.net/article,3766,a-new-flea---NRO-radio-interview-with-author-of,NRODavid-Bently-Hart
Listen to the stumbling, droning inarticulacy, the abysmal lack of anything approaching wit or intelligence. Imagine this yammering fumblewit coming up against Christopher Hitchens, or Dan Dennett, or PZ Myers – doesn’t it make your mouth water?

I emphatically don’t mean we should use foul-mouthed rants. Nor should we raise our voices and shout at them: let’s have no D’Souzereignty here. Instead, what we need is sarcastic, cutting wit. A good model might be Peter Medawar, who would never dream of shouting, but instead quietly wielded the rapier. Look, for instance, at almost any sentence in his magnificent review of Teilhard de Chardin’s pretentious Phenomenon of Man. It is reprinted in Pluto’s Republic or you can find it here:-
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Medawar/phenomenon-of-man.html

Maybe I’m wrong. I'm only thinking aloud, among friends. Is it gloves off time? Or should we continue to go along with the appeasers and be all nice and cuddly, like Eugenie and the National Academy?

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

17. Comment #368198 by MAJORPAIN on April 22, 2009 at 9:33 am

I want to say that this does make me feel dishonest (referring to my first post) and I agree with the poster who says it can cause mistrust later. I am from Arkansas and if you think Texas is bad...well...anyway, I am becoming much bolder (strident!) about explaining evolution to people -- in simple terms of course -- and now that I am thus chastened by some of you -- I will leave god out of it until they bring it up and then I will try to handle it more honestly.

I have one complete convert to my credit (unfortunately not a christian) but I will soldier on and keep up the good fight.

I can't tell you how much Richard has contributed to my level of courage. I look up to him and want to be as "intellectually brave" as I can. Also, on that note I want to tell Richard that I have a new way of finding the atheists among us -- just drop Richard's name in casual conversation. I found a fellow atheist at work by mentioning "this new book I'm reading by Richard Dawkins" and saying it is really interesting. No one knew who he was except one guy who came up to me later and asked, "are you an atheist£" To my reply he gleefully said, "so am I!!" I now have a new friend. Thank you Richard!

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18. Comment #368200 by Peacebeuponme on April 22, 2009 at 9:35 am

yammering fumblewit
I am going to use that in conversation just as soon as a can. Superb.

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19. Comment #368204 by Diacanu on April 22, 2009 at 9:39 am

 avatarRichard Dawkins-


I emphatically don’t mean we should use foul-mouthed rants.


*Eyes dart back and forth guiltily*

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20. Comment #368206 by AllanW on April 22, 2009 at 9:39 am

 avatarComment #368197 by Richard Dawkins on April 22, 2009 at 9:32 am

Is it gloves off time?


Yes.

Future generations of rational, reasonable and woo-free people will both applaud and ask why it took us so long to throw off our childish superstitions.

Now what do we do to help?

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21. Comment #368209 by SteveN on April 22, 2009 at 9:44 am

 avatarGood stuff from Jerry!

I also admire the NCSE for their hard work (and for the fact that I'm on the 'Steve' T-shirt) but I abhor the way that Eugene Scott bends over backwards to stress that there is no conflict between religion and science because this is clearly not true. Similarly, as much as I admire the writings of Gould, I can never forgive him his introduction of the NOMA concept.

Richard has said that he is often criticised in the USA for his uncompromising view on this topic because it makes the job or organisations such as the NCSE more difficult. Richard has even said that he accepts this criticism and may change his approach in the future. I would actually encourage even more direct, no-holds-barred 'in-your-face' criticism of religion because it seems to me that books such as TGD have initiated a change in the 'Zeitgeist' that makes this increasingly possible in public.

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22. Comment #368213 by Steve Zara on April 22, 2009 at 9:46 am

Comment #368197 by Richard Dawkins

There is no need to be an appeaser in any way, I think, but simply and clearly and unambiguously state that science and faith are incompatible when asked. Individuals can make their own accommodation between religion and science if they want to, but that accommodation should be open to ridicule if publicly expressed. Public expressions of any other type of belief, such as artistic judgements, are open to such treatment.

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23. Comment #368214 by Oystein Elgaroy on April 22, 2009 at 9:47 am

 avatarComment #368197 by Richard Dawkins

But I think we should probably abandon the irremediably religious precisely because that is what they are – irremediable. I am more interested in the fence-sitters who haven’t really considered the question very long or very carefully. And I think that they are likely to be swayed by a display of naked contempt. Nobody likes to be laughed at. Nobody wants to be the butt of contempt.


It worked in my case. It is remarkable how having ones ideas called silly can help one in realizing that they are, well, silly.

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24. Comment #368216 by Gregg Townsend on April 22, 2009 at 9:51 am

 avatar16. Comment #368197 by Richard Dawkins

Where religious views are presented in the public sphere, especially as it relates to public policy and public education, I say the gloves should be off!

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25. Comment #368217 by Cartomancer on April 22, 2009 at 9:51 am

 avatarWere the gloves still on then? I rather thought we were already showering the religious with the scathing contempt they deserve...

Although I suspect there are some fence-sitters who would be dissuaded by scathing contempt for religion. There are indeed people out there who place more stock by harmony, cooperation and unwillingness to rock the boat than by wit, humour and the glorious art of the clever put-down. Nevertheless, I suspect that these people are, by their very nature, too fuzzy-headed and unspecific in their actions to pose any real threat one way or the other. Even if they do have some sympathy for creationism and allied nonsenses it is unlikely they will do anything about it - they're proud of being fence-sitters, and any display of overt support for anything even slightly contentious is anathema to them.

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26. Comment #368218 by digibud on April 22, 2009 at 9:52 am

I am currently reading "Why Evolution is True" and getting quite a kick out of it, so first a quick thanks to Jerry Coyne. Having said that, I gotta tell Jerry the obvious. The NCSE's stated goal is "improving and supporting education in evolution and the nature of science, and increasing public understanding of these subjects." so it's not a huge leap to understand that they choose to do this by minimizing the obvious issues of science vs religion. If you know people are going to shoot arrows at a messenger with blond hair and your tribe all has blond hair, some might argue to dye your hair before you leave with the message.
I'm sure there has been great debate about this issue within the NCSE and some folks in the organization are reading this commentary saying, "Exactly correct!", while others and shaking their head and saying, "Yeah, sure. Let's go to the local school board and tell them what we are teaching directly contradicts their fundamental assumptions and beliefs regarding their lives. Let's see how much better science education will be after we drive that wedge between us."
Frankly I'm not sure what my stand on this issue is because I haven't given it a great deal of thought but it appears to me to be one of those issues where reasonable people may disagree on how best to approach a difficult task. Dealing with ignorant people is quite the pain in the ass.

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27. Comment #368219 by -ID62- on April 22, 2009 at 9:54 am

Very well written and argued Mr. Coyne.

And to those who are arguing that it may be beneficial and "realpolitik" for the NAS and the NCSE to engage with the religious to further understanding of science, I disagree. The knife can,And Often Does, cut both ways. I argue that there are plenty of other means to have the debate as to whether science precludes belief in the supernatural. Let these 2 organizations stick with the FOCUS of making sure that everyone possible has a deep appreciation and at least a general understanding of what science is, and what we know to be the facts of the matter.

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28. Comment #368220 by root2squared on April 22, 2009 at 9:55 am

 avatar16. Comment #368197 by Richard Dawkins

Excellent!

Is it gloves off time?


I think it's been a gloves off time since long.

I do not even see a debate between science and religion. I do not think atheist scientists should even engage in a debate with the religious ones. These debates merely legitimize the beliefs of scientists like Miller in the minds of the religious. Imagine if 90% of the scientists point blank said that Christianity was nonsense and that they would not bother to debate their religious counterparts. Then the parasitic legitimacy they derive from science will be gone. Since the scientific method is completely in conflict with faith, I think it is acceptable to deny such religious scientists respect the moment they start talking about faith

The attitude should just be that we do science and we don't accept any claims without evidence. Force the moderates to make a choice. I don't see the moderates skipping science classes just to avoid the conflict. Some of them will compartmentalize it, some of them will further remove the bits from their holy books that conflict with science, and maybe some of them will give it up.

I don't see why scientists who do the most intellectually honest work you can do should pander even the least bit to those who lie to themselves. It is not only unfair, it is also the wrong tactic.

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29. Comment #368221 by Diacanu on April 22, 2009 at 9:56 am

 avatarCartomancer-


they're proud of being fence-sitters, and any display of overt support for anything even slightly contentious is anathema to them.


I've run into the odd breed who are so proud of being fence sitters, they try to verbally rip your guts out for not being one.
Fascinating thing to watch.

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30. Comment #368222 by zeroangel on April 22, 2009 at 9:56 am

 avatarMAJORPAIN:

I concur, I have 2 such new friends now.

Richard:

As for your question: I am generally of the opinion that the best course of action is neither coddling or contempt. Education is all we need. Just give them the facts and let them work out how to square evolution with their religious beliefs. Frankly, the very watered down version of religion that relagates "God" to a cosmic tinkerer doesn't really bother me.

It's only when those kinds of folks give the extremists a pass do I get annoyed.

PS. I would pay a good deal of cash to see Hithchens or Harris go up against Coulter (or this Hart fellow). It won't happen though.

Other Comments by zeroangel

31. Comment #368223 by ajcrawfs on April 22, 2009 at 9:57 am

 avatarEvolution is not compatable with christianities viewpoints. Evolution means no Adam and no Eve, which means no original sin. Christianity is based on the fact that "Jesus died for Adam's original sin" and there wasn't one.

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32. Comment #368224 by Verylee on April 22, 2009 at 9:58 am

 avatarComment #368197 by Richard Dawkins
Is it gloves off time?

If it came down to a vote, I would have to say YES.
Apart from the fact that I am sick and tired of all this nonsense being peddled as 'truth' (and that includes New Age nonsense), I sometimes worry who is going to take over your mantle. I sometimes fear that all the good work that you have done so far may be undone once you decide to or are unable to continue fighting unreason. That would be a tragedy.
The time is ripe.

(not forgetting of course the good work done by Harris, Hitchens, Dennet et al...but you Richard are our face of reason, our 'recognised' spokesman.)

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33. Comment #368225 by Diacanu on April 22, 2009 at 9:59 am

 avatarzeroangel-


PS. I would pay a good deal of cash to see Hithchens or Harris go up against Coulter (or this Hart fellow). It won't happen though.


Coulter would bawl like a little girl.

Seriously.

I saw her at a book signing on C-Span get confronted, and she put up her usual front, but her eyes were watering.

Happened again when she merely perceived that she was ambushed on MSNBC.

She can dish it out, but can't take it at all.

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34. Comment #368226 by lvpl78 on April 22, 2009 at 10:03 am

Richard

Is it gloves off time? Or should we continue to go along with the appeasers


It is gloves off time! Two cases in point: The respective debates in the US over same sex marriage and over abortion. The rational side, our side, has made what are in my opinion two big mistakes in these two arguments.

On same sex marriage, they dare not speak of the fact that the reason it is opposed is almost entirely based on religious beliefs. I almost had to stop driving the other day when listening to a debate on npr about this. On our side we had people putting across various arguments. "Those who are against it are just hateful", "we need to have a dialogue about this and find some middle ground", "we understand concerns about family values", "we respect people's beliefs, maybe civil partnerships would be a happy compromise" etc. I was screaming for somebody to come on and say something like "Your arguments are entirely based on two thousand year old dogma that has no basis in fact" or "no other industrialised country is debating this".

On abortion, the slogan "pro choice", and talk of a woman's right to choose, is dodging the issue in the same way. The correct argument should be something like "a week old fetus is not a baby". In both cases the issue needs to be attacked at source. The ignorant opposition on both these issues is based entirely on indoctrination and dogma. The correct approach is attack it at it's roots. It is an absolute waste of time trying reason with the religious over something like stem cell research. Unless you attack their religious views, it is utterly futile.

The Arab Israeli conflict is a dispute about land. However there have been many conflicts about land and resources all over the world and throughout history. The reason why this issue is unsolveable is because both sides believe they have divine rights on the exact same specific piece of land. Someone needs to tell Tony Blair that if he wants to resolve this dispute in the long run, he needs to inform them that they are both wrong.

Enough is enough. Gloves off. If you ever feel guilt about using ridicule, just look at the world news on any particular day. It's more than worth it.

Other Comments by lvpl78

35. Comment #368227 by zeroangel on April 22, 2009 at 10:04 am

 avatarDiacanu:

Sounds like her. I actually heard her once debate some nondescript "agnostic" on radio (who was almost certainly more accurately described as an atheist).

She just became shrill and repeated the mantra "you can have no moral objectivity without God!"

You can guess where it went from there. She was practically screaming.

Other Comments by zeroangel

36. Comment #368228 by epeeist on April 22, 2009 at 10:04 am

 avatarComment #368197 by Richard Dawkins:
Maybe I’m wrong. I'm only thinking aloud, among friends. Is it gloves off time?
The gloves have been off since the time of Hume and Voltaire. For cutting wit you can't beat the latter, but Hume's incisive analysis is also needed. Different people will respond to different approaches, which is presumably why the "Four Horsemen" are so effective.

D’Souzereignty


This one made me smile.

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37. Comment #368229 by Cartomancer on April 22, 2009 at 10:11 am

 avatarOf course, you're never actually going to get one of the accommodationist Neville Chamberlain School proponents arguing the utility of presenting evolution as compatible with religion. It might well be a more productive political tactic, but they can't say that this is what it is, because the moment they do they have revealed that their motives are political. More importantly, they have revealed that they don't actually believe their statement is true.

This is why it is always we who don't believe in accommodation arguing publicly against those who do. They simply cannot defend their tactics outside private conversations other than by arguing that science and religion ARE compatible. It is remarkable the degree to which they refuse to do this in our direction. Nobody stands up and writes articles from an atheistic standpoint about how science and religion are compatible, aimed squarely at dispelling the opinions of we who do not think so. I can only conclude from this that the Neville Chamberlain School really are being disingenuous.

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38. Comment #368231 by lvpl78 on April 22, 2009 at 10:12 am

I loved this quote from a recent interview with Ricky Gervais. It sums up how I and I'm sure many others feel.

"I feel angry that I even have to say I am atheist. The alternative is so ludicrous to me. I don't want to dignify the idea of religion by saying that. The burden of proof should be on their side, not mine....I know there is no God more than I know anything else in this world."

Well said I thought.

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39. Comment #368233 by jeremynel on April 22, 2009 at 10:14 am

Richard, I couldn't agree with your sentiments more. It's a mistake to resort only to attempts at converting hardcore believers; as you note, their minds are usually unchangeable. The success of New Atheism (apologies for that phrase again) has been to convert the minds of those whose opinions can be changed - namely, those somewhere in the middle of the spectrum between reason and superstition. Also, even determined atheists like myself are enboldened and cheered by each heroic charge from the paladins of New Atheism. What isn't often considered is that even if being "strident" and "non-accommodationist" does alienate some moderates, this might be more than balanced by simultaneously encouraging more people of reason to speak out - including those atheists whose minds haven't necessarily been changed.

Besides, I think accommodation has had its chance. All the years of a more circumspect toleration for religion idiocy hasn't improved the relevant statistics, like the number of people who accept the theory of evolution.

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40. Comment #368241 by -ID62- on April 22, 2009 at 10:21 am

Multiple strategies, multiple actors, multiple channels.

Since I am not often quoted in the larger media (probably a good thing), I have no need to sharpen my rapier wit further than it is, perhaps a longer and sharper than average kitchen knife. Most people I meet have given these topics almost no thought whatsoever despite the large amount of time and money they devote to their particular religion.
Therefore my tool is about the right size if you know what I mean. I find that I can affect peoples thinking, on purpose, by simply calling attention to irrational behaviors and statements in a humerous way.
If I was fighting directly with people who wanted to teach my children creationism, I can assure you that I would need no more than the power of my little robot replicators to destroy them.
If I was on the school board etc. I would probably need more knowledge, more organized rhetorical skills, and a rapier sense of wit.
What I love about richarddawkinsnet community is that it is allowing us to organically generate a somewhat coordinated meta-strategy.
Thank you all

Other Comments by -ID62-

41. Comment #368242 by gazzaofbath on April 22, 2009 at 10:24 am

 avatarThe point seems clear to me and is well articulated by the writer of the above article; it is up to the religious to justify (and twist and squirm if necessary) that evolution is consistent with their beliefs, not science, nor scientists.

Does every scientist whose studies just might contradict a literal reading of the bible have to periodically publish guidance for believers in, for example, geological or astronomical studies? Let alone biology.

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42. Comment #368243 by clodhopper on April 22, 2009 at 10:24 am

 avatarComment #368197 by Richard Dawkins

Suppose the religious start treating us with naked contempt, how would we like it£


They've been doing that & more for yonks......Water offa ducks back.

.....is totally incongruent with what Christians know in the divine self-emptying of Christ


I simply do not care if Christ taking a dump is divine or not

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43. Comment #368246 by clodhopper on April 22, 2009 at 10:28 am

 avatarIs this accomodationist stance a pragmatic response to those who whold the purse strings or more than that ?

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44. Comment #368249 by crookedshoes on April 22, 2009 at 10:30 am

I find (as a teacher of evolution,) in dealing with a largely fundie christian population of students that most of the beef that they seem to have revolves around ORIGIN not evolution. Once they hear the tenets of evolution (provided they are actually willing to be receptive) they say "wow, i see it happening around me now"... However when you start with organic chemical evolution and the Miller/Urey experiment, they bristle. to me these topics (origin and evolution) are synonyms, to them they are not. Some of course are closed vessels, right about everything, and immutable; I can not reach them anyway.

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45. Comment #368252 by hungarianelephant on April 22, 2009 at 10:35 am

 avatar16. Comment #368197 by Richard Dawkins
Michael Shermer, Michael Ruse, Eugenie Scott and others are probably right that contemptuous ridicule is not an expedient way to change the minds of those who are deeply religious. But I think we should probably abandon the irremediably religious precisely because that is what they are – irremediable. I am more interested in the fence-sitters who haven’t really considered the question very long or very carefully. And I think that they are likely to be swayed by a display of naked contempt. Nobody likes to be laughed at. Nobody wants to be the butt of contempt.

I think it depends on the question more than the audience.

Your average preacher is just a salesman with a bad product - think David Robertson. There's probably not a lot to be gained by going bareknuckle with him, except that it's fun. He isn't going to change his mind, and the only people who will be listening are us and his current customers.

When we're dealing with creationists trying to force their agenda onto science teaching, then I think it's a different matter. These people are bullies, and need to be dealt with as bullies. They cannot be accommodated, because where the evidence contradicts them, they simply reject the evidence. They have to be stood up to, exposed for what they are, and publicly humiliated.

I see that michanikos has mentioned the Dover case, and I agree with those comments - sarcasm is not some sort of magic bullet which can be used in all cases. But the overall lesson of Dover was precisely that the creationist arguments don't withstand scrutiny by the accepted standards of public life, and that taking them on directly is a winning strategy.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

46. Comment #368253 by Mr Blue Sky on April 22, 2009 at 10:36 am

 avatarThis approach by the esteemed body as described by Jerry, is bound to undermine our position in the long run. Appeasement is a sad way to try and survive. We are the fittest, we can adapt, they will become extinct if we stick to our guns. Adapt and survive, this site is a good example of how we are spreading not only the word but the arguments too. Keep on keeping on. Our biggest problem is stil the rising muslim menace and this may end in tears at some point but science must prevail or we shall return to their stone age system complete with sharia etc!!!

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47. Comment #368265 by Frankus1122 on April 22, 2009 at 11:03 am

 avatar47. Comment #368253 by Mr Blue Sky


Keep on keeping on


Yes.

Keep on providing the reasons why 'evolution is true' and why God most probably doesn't exist. (Of course, a sensible definition of God would be nice to argue against).

This is the way it is and these are the reason why.
There is the weight of being correct on our side.
There will be counter arguments from the other side but we need to keep on providing the reasons why these arguments do not hold water. On the Hart thread there was the complaint that there was a lack of understanding of deep theology. Provide us with that which we do not understand and you will get an argument. Even if it were a wisp of smoke it could be contained and shown to be false, but we don't get even this. We get arguments that are akin to reports of wisps of smoke seen on a foggy day by a friend of a friend 200 years ago. Nice.

So, yes, keep on keeping on.

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48. Comment #368280 by The Smart Patrol on April 22, 2009 at 11:16 am

 avatarMore scathing atheistic militancy? Yes please!

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49. Comment #368284 by Rowdy1 on April 22, 2009 at 11:22 am

 avatarI didn't read the entire piece, but let me say this.

Religion is mythology...a set of stories attempting to explain how/why things work in the known universe.

Science does the same thing but does it with facts, rational thinking and measurable observations which are tested over and over for consistency instead of fairy tales.

Even if there is some tiny overlap of compatibility on the surface, they are two completely different things arrived at by two totally different techniques.

I hate it when THEY view science and rational thought as just "another way of looking at things." There's rational and there's irrational. One is useful, the other is for the institutionalized.

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50. Comment #368292 by crookedshoes on April 22, 2009 at 11:27 am

GOD IS AN OPINION.

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