1. Comment #374207 by Isherwood on May 8, 2009 at 7:55 am

Amen. I'm still appalled when I hear about this. Come on, Britain!

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2. Comment #374208 by gr8hands on May 8, 2009 at 7:55 am

Amen.

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3. Comment #374210 by Philip1978 on May 8, 2009 at 8:06 am

Not praying at school got me a heck of a lot of frowns.

I tested this whole prayer business when I was about 7 or 8 and found out just how enormously rubbish it was so I stopped doing it.

Teachers and prefects tried their best frowns out on me but thankfully they never made a dent.

A few years later when I discovered the importance of knowing where my towel was, knowing where God was simply paled in comparrison. He was rubbish, my towel was rather excellent!

:)

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4. Comment #374211 by mixmastergaz on May 8, 2009 at 8:10 am

What an entirely reasonable, fair-minded and truly representative suggestion from Johann Hari. Of course, it goes without saying that his suggestion will either be ignored or condemned.

I too share his surprise at the paucity of religious moderates who agree with this point of view and are prepared to say so publicly. I seem to recall a British Rabbi (sorry, I can't remember his name) who recently put forward the argument against faith schools and was slapped down by the Jewish Chronicle for his troubles. Maybe fear of recriminations like this prevent religious moderates from speaking out. Alternatively, and more depressingly, perhaps the thing that stops them speaking out is a lack of integrity. I can't help but think that at least some religious people must, in their heart of hearts, realise perfectly well that without the childhood indoctrination provided by schools(however mild), their religions would slide irreversibly into eventual extinction.

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5. Comment #374213 by root2squared on May 8, 2009 at 8:15 am

We had prayer in school in India too. Luckily it was pretty short. The only words I remember are "give us this day our daily bread" or something like that.

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6. Comment #374214 by ahmunnaeetchoo on May 8, 2009 at 8:18 am

When i look back, i'm grateful to my teachers. I was in a 'christian school', but we didn't waste much time with it and we never took it seriously. I'm pretty sure they thought it was a load of tripe too. In fact the head teacher gave a few talks on morality which sounded very much like a stance an atheist would take on the matter.

Don't know if my school was one of the rarer cases.

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7. Comment #374217 by dochmbi on May 8, 2009 at 8:31 am

So say we all.

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8. Comment #374223 by bendigeidfran on May 8, 2009 at 8:43 am

'Let us now put our hands together and pray. O God, we gather here today to ask you to free our schoolchildren from being forced to go through this charade every day.'

Perhaps charades would be better. It would certainly hold the children's attention if the headmaster were to attempt to pull off 'Twelve angry men' before registration.

Our prayers were said first in Welsh, then English after a short pause and general disappointment that He couldn't understand it either.

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9. Comment #374225 by DamnDirtyApe on May 8, 2009 at 8:46 am

SO SAY WE ALL.

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10. Comment #374229 by huzonfurst on May 8, 2009 at 8:52 am

Repeat after me:

Oh, Lord (Oh, Lord)
Oo, you are so very big (ditto)
Gosh, we're all really impressed down here I can tell you

More accurately:

"Let us praise God. Oh Lord, oooh you are so big. So absolutely huge. Gosh, we’re all really impressed down here I can tell you. Forgive us, O Lord, for this dreadful toadying and barefaced flattery. But you are so strong and, well, just so super. Fantastic. Amen." (Michael Palin as the chaplain in The Meaning of Life)

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11. Comment #374230 by squinky on May 8, 2009 at 8:52 am

Comeon Britain! You can do it! You're good enough, smart enough, and doggoneit, people like you!

Well done Hari!

I remember when I was 16 playing basketball against a very religious school and I was one of the few who didn't bow my head to pray before the game. I remember the disapproving stares from parents which prompted two thoughts: 1) why if you are religious and supposed to be bowing your head and praying yourself are you looking at me£ and 2) Yeah, that's right, I'm looking at you with a smile because you're a fuckwit and you can't control me!

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12. Comment #374231 by J.C. Samuelson on May 8, 2009 at 8:55 am

@ Philip & Squinky

Love those cultural references!

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13. Comment #374234 by TCM on May 8, 2009 at 9:07 am

Yes it is disgusting, but it's also an excellent recruitment tool for us.

Praying in school was just like some sort of embarrassing ritual to me: we'd bow our heads, the teachers would awkwardly say something trivial in that sort of kindly but removed way you're supposed to talk to god, and we'd all think it was a bit stupid and just murmur instead of saying 'amen'.

Forcing kids to go through something so daft and associating it with the uncoolness of teachers can only help the cause of atheism. Looking back, I suppose were probably some who were taking it seriously, but they were probably religious anyway and didn't need the school's help.

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14. Comment #374236 by DiveMedic on May 8, 2009 at 9:19 am

15. Comment #374234 by TCM on May 8, 2009 at 9:07 am

"Looking back, I suppose were probably some who were taking it seriously, but they were probably religious anyway and didn't need the school's help."

Bear in mind that these are children. When I was a child, I attended a christian school (I was sent there by my atheist father..strangely enough). When I started considering myself religious, it was because of the influence of my school, not my parents.

When children are under the impression that school is a place that you go to learn facts (as I assume many of them are), they accept the things they are taught as such. The implication of being forced to pray to a deity every morning is that one exists.

I honestly do not see how indoctrinating children in this way does anything to help them NOT adopt rediculous beliefs.

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15. Comment #374237 by Paula Kirby on May 8, 2009 at 9:22 am

TCM: Forcing kids to go through something so daft and associating it with the uncoolness of teachers can only help the cause of atheism. Looking back, I suppose were probably some who were taking it seriously, but they were probably religious anyway and didn't need the school's help.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure about this. I certainly agree that the daily 10 minute assembly is unlikely to convert anyone at the time. But it creates an environment, an atmosphere, in which religion is accepted and not questioned, and I suspect it quietly lays a foundation which some people later turn to - perhaps at times of emotional distress, for instance. It plants the seeds, in other words.

Quite apart from which, it is simply inappropriate on every level for the state to compel children to take part in religious worship. Religion is supposed to be a matter of personal conscience. What's more, schools are there to educate - which means to teach children how to question, how to think things through, how to assess the balance of evidence for or against a proposition. They are supposed to deal in knowledge, to the best of our current understanding. To actively teach children to accept religion and engage in acts of religious workship runs entirely counter to all that - faith being precisely the OPPOSITE of everything a good education is supposed to stand for.

And another thing: many people, even those who are not devoutly religious, still cherish the vague notion that life on Earth needed there to have been a designer of some kind - and who is to say that year after year after year of singing 'All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small, all things wise and wonderful, the Lord God made them all' doesn't have a lot to answer for here?

EDIT: Actually, having just read DiveMedic's post, I think I've changed my mind about assemblies being unlikely to convert children at the time. S/he's quite right: why should young children be able to know the difference between what they're told as fact in lessons and what they're told as fact in assembly?

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16. Comment #374238 by Steve Zara on May 8, 2009 at 9:22 am

Comment #374229 by huzonfurst

Thank you for posting that! There has rarely been a more accurate summary of typical Christian prayer than that hilarious Monty Python sketch.

I used to be a Catholic, and it completely cracks me up each time I watch it.

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17. Comment #374240 by Didaktylos on May 8, 2009 at 9:30 am

We must also remember that this practice is honoured as much in the breach as the observance.

Take may own experiences from circa 30 years ago. The main assembly hall was not actually big enough to hold the entire school at one time (except when the folding partition that separated it from the canteen was thrown back). So what happened was that 1st to 5th forms had an assembly on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Friday and the 6th on Mondays and Thursdays. During exam periods, assemblies were not held because the assembly hall was laid out as the principal exam hall.

Only on the final day of each term, when the school closed at lunchtime was a plenary assembly held.

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18. Comment #374241 by aw6334 on May 8, 2009 at 9:32 am

I'm don't think this rule is generally adhered to - I think that many secular schools just pay lip service to it - praying at Easter and Christmas, for instance.

My children have all been to the same secondary school, for a total of 15 years between them - and none of them have had to pray on a daily basis.

At least it seems that their school has had the sense to ignore the rule.

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19. Comment #374242 by Paula Kirby on May 8, 2009 at 9:41 am

I think it's true that many schools quietly ignore the law on this ... but many do not. A headmaster in Whitley Bay recently tried to come clean on this and get permission not to hold assemblies, and was told in no uncertain terms that there was no way permission would be granted.

Religious worship in schools is a bad thing, so it should not be enshrined in law - the fact that some schools are already disobeying the law doesn't really alter that, in my opinion.

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20. Comment #374243 by scottishgeologist on May 8, 2009 at 9:41 am

aw6334

Regarding lip service, I wonder how many teachers can really be bothered with it either£ Most of mine couldnt be arsed - and the science teachers I had (who were brilliant!) were all quite rationalist and dismissive of religion

I remember when at secondary school at the end of each term, we used to have to traipse, in pairs to the "parish church" for the end of term service

Now the school was about a mile away. I reckon we managed to lose about 1/3 of the pupils on the way....

:-))
SG

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21. Comment #374249 by George Lennan on May 8, 2009 at 9:53 am

To all the brit kids here - just look back and remember! Don't you recall that your schooldays were spent getting away with what you could without explicitly breaking the rules?

If a teacher said something, it was inherently bullshit precisely *because* a teacher said it. We all knew that bucking the system (à la Fletch in Porridge) was the whole point of being at school. The patent nonsense of the little-england christianity spouted by Mr Perrat and Mr Hedger was one of the rocks upon which our mistrust of authority was founded!

Long live the morning religious assembly (and chapel on Tuesdays) - the Church of England school is the best imaginable innoculation against true believer syndrome. Hoorah!

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22. Comment #374250 by Steve Zara on May 8, 2009 at 9:54 am

Something that is worth pointing out is that British Law does not just require an act of collective worship, but acts of broadly Christian collective worship.

I have a plan. A way to subvert this, based on an idea by Dan Dennett, and the apparent intentions of our future King.

Insist that we don't just require worship appropriate for Christian faith, but for all the major world faiths. If Prince Charles wants to be "Defender of faith", let the children see what such an astonishingly broad "church" really means.

I suspect this may have interesting consequences.

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23. Comment #374251 by greenanddying on May 8, 2009 at 9:54 am

Secondary schools usually are neutral about religion. We never had prayers or hymns in our assemblies. The closest we got was when a local church group came in and gave every student a Bible and invited us to come to church. I don't even think that should have been allowed.

But in primary school we had hymns, prayers and Bible stories every assembly and we often had vicars coming in to talk to us. Not coming from a religious family, primary school was the first time I had heard any of this stuff. RE lessons were usually based on Christianity, I remember one time we each had to bring in pictures from our Christenings and it was just assumed that we'd all been Christened (I hadn't). This wasn't even a religious school, just a normal one.

I think that primary schools should be completely neutral on religion and not teach any kind of RE. Then secondary schools can start to teach about all religions and all holy books. 4-year-olds don't need to know that stuff.

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24. Comment #374252 by Needscowbell on May 8, 2009 at 9:54 am

So say we ALL!

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25. Comment #374253 by Katana on May 8, 2009 at 10:02 am

I had to go through this crap when i was in primary school, but it was a CofE school so i suppose you expect it there.
We had it worse though, we had to sing a couple of hymns then pray, by the time i was about 8 i got sick of this, and just mimed the words and bowed in silence.
Apart from that and the easter/xmas services, religion was never discussed in the classrooms as far as i can remember.

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26. Comment #374256 by chewedbarber on May 8, 2009 at 10:18 am

It's sad that at least some of the children are praying fervently for solutions to real problems, problems that remain unaddressed because the people in their lives are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good.

edit: In my opinion this is state sponsorship for the efficacy of prayer.

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27. Comment #374259 by Animavore on May 8, 2009 at 10:26 am

Ah. I remember the old school prayers well.

It was something like this as I recall.

Our father who art in heaven
Hello be thy name.
De-ne-ne-ne
De-ne-ne-ne
De-ne-as it is in heaven.
De-ne-ne-ne, ne-ne-ne-ne.
And-neh-ne-ner-ne
As-weh-ne-ne-ne-ne-ne
And-deh-ne-ne-evil.
Amen.

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28. Comment #374260 by jardino on May 8, 2009 at 10:30 am

Hari is a bit sloppy here:

"British law requires every schoolchild to participate in "an act of collective worship" every 24 hours."

1) There is no such thing as British law. In the Unted Kingdom, there is English law and there is Scottish law.

2) Cursed as I was with the Church of Scotland's encroachment on my learning time in school, Monday-Friday, I was free from their shackles
on Saturday and Sunday.

I suppose his heart is in the right place, however.

Best.

Other Comments by jardino

29. Comment #374261 by chewedbarber on May 8, 2009 at 10:31 am

Blasphemer!

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30. Comment #374267 by American_Ateapotist on May 8, 2009 at 10:48 am

It's things like this that make me happy to be an American. As much as is wrong with my country and as god-soaked as the people are here, I was never subjected to state-sponsored nonsense. The closest we ever came to something like the assemblies you are mentioning is a "moment of silence" every morning. Some of the more religious kids would pray, but most of us took the time we had to organize our school papers, read, pass notes, or generally goof off.

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31. Comment #374271 by bendigeidfran on May 8, 2009 at 11:03 am

Comment #374267 by American_Ateapotist

How about flag worship? The U.S. TV shows here always have the children talking to flags. And they can't seem to say anything without standing up.

Passing notes eh? Bring it to the front and let's read it out for all the class to hear...I didn't get where I am by goofing off...

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32. Comment #374272 by TheNewAtheist on May 8, 2009 at 11:07 am

Speaking of brainwashing kids, check out what just popped up on Yahoo News. This kid can't go to an outside school's prom, because his school is so fundamentalist.

http://tinyurl.com/pcu2m5

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33. Comment #374276 by friendlypig on May 8, 2009 at 11:17 am

The school I attended was a Chantry School i.e. the local Anglican priest was paid to pray for the departed soul of the Lord of the Manor after he had shuffled off this mortal coil. In fact he prayed for the departed souls of anyone whose family paid him.

The school at that time a state Grammar School, was founded in 1547 and, received its Royal charted in 1608 and still has an official Chaplain.

In the late 50s & 60s we still had compulsory assemblies with a hymn and prayers; except for one boy who was Jewish.

The biggest danger we faced was that someone in the row behind had a pin!!

Our 'Religious Knowledge' teacher was ironically one of the science teachers who I found out a few years ago was an atheist!

Now there are Muslim students on the Student's Roll I don't know what they do.

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34. Comment #374279 by Bonzai on May 8, 2009 at 11:39 am

Now this is not really about God belief or Jesus, is it?

It is a kind of group ritual, like pleading allegiance to the Queen or the flag, singing National anthems and in the case of the Japanese, making employees repeating company slogans and watching hours of film footages of the rag to rich stories of the company's founders.

The U.K still has school uniform, right? In a way school uniform also serves a similar purpose of ehancing group identity.

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35. Comment #374280 by Diacanu on May 8, 2009 at 11:43 am

Wow, poor little limeys, and I thought the Pledge Of Allegiance was annoying....

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36. Comment #374281 by Diacanu on May 8, 2009 at 11:50 am

Bonzai-

All that's stupid bullshit that needs to go too.

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37. Comment #374283 by bendigeidfran on May 8, 2009 at 12:02 pm

Comment #374279 by Bonzai

Looks funny from here. Here's the utopian national flag:-

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38. Comment #374284 by DoctorE on May 8, 2009 at 12:09 pm

Training kids in being good slaves...

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39. Comment #374285 by ods15 on May 8, 2009 at 12:15 pm

I am absolutely not saying that schools should teach children to be atheists. No. Schools should take no position on religion.

You know, it's funny, but I would consider a certain action that schools should do - teach children critical thinking and rationality - to be actively promoting atheism... It's just an interesting and funny way of looking at it

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40. Comment #374286 by Ultraevo on May 8, 2009 at 12:16 pm

The law in N. Ireland (also part of the UK) is the same. So my secondary school has assemblies every day the assembly hall is not in use for exams. Most assemblies have a religious thread and all end in prayer. Once a week one of the local ministers (all are on the schools board of governors) leads assembly and once a week the head of RE, a fundie ley preacher, delivers the message. The junior pupils show respect, but about half of the senior pupils do not bow their heads during prayer. Obviously assemblies reinforce the message, but more effective indoctrination takes place in statutory RE lessons and in the home. Removal of the legal requirement for assembly would be good, but if pupils were made aware that they can opt out of RE lessons, then I think we would see many seniors choosing to do so and this would trickle down to the juniors. Should we launch a campaign to advertise this option? How could the god fearers react?

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41. Comment #374287 by Diacanu on May 8, 2009 at 12:17 pm

DoctorE-

Indeed.

http://dickynoo.blogspot.com/2008/09/meaningless-slogans.html

(May do an audioblog version of this tonight, stay tuned)

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42. Comment #374289 by rod-the-farmer on May 8, 2009 at 12:32 pm

As a small boy of 12/13, I lived for a year in Edgeware, NW London (UK). On Sundays my younger sister and I were told to toddle off to the local Protestant church, perhaps 2-3 miles away. I was already having none of that, so I walked my sister part of the way, then let her continue while I spent the time dreaming outside the window of the local hobby shop, checking out model planes etc.

One particular Sunday, I happened to glance up the short side street to the main road, and noticed my father driving out towards the church. It had just started to rain, and presumably he wanted to give us a ride back home.

I had to sprint the mile to the church, sneak through the bushes and come out around the back, as though I had attended church. My father asked where my sister was, and I said "She's coming". When my sister did come out, she was very surprised to see me there, knowing full well where I had been. But she never said a word, and my budding atheism was never reported.

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43. Comment #374290 by Bonzai on May 8, 2009 at 12:37 pm

Predictably many people focus on the belief aspect. I think this is the wrong angle.

School prayer in a secular country like Britian is a ritual to instill group identity and conformity. It is really a secular use of religion.

Religion is not just about supernatural beliefs, it is a tool for social control,--and this can also be achieved through 'atheistic' means. Fixating too closely on religion's supernatural content can be missing the point.

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44. Comment #374292 by Steve Zara on May 8, 2009 at 12:44 pm

Comment #374287 by Diacanu

Please do. I really enjoy your audio blogs.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

45. Comment #374294 by righton on May 8, 2009 at 12:47 pm

Diacanu,


Another nice blog post! Thanks. I really enjoy your blog but I have one problem. What the hell is wrong with spray cheese?

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46. Comment #374295 by mitch_486 on May 8, 2009 at 12:55 pm

Diacanu on his blog:

Oooo! A burning bush! Ooo! Lots and lots of waaater!!

Meanwhile galaxies are crashing together and exploding out in the fucking universe.

...still cleaning up the coffee

Other Comments by mitch_486

47. Comment #374296 by flying goose on May 8, 2009 at 1:02 pm

I am genuinely surprised that no moderate religious people have, to my knowledge, joined the campaign to stop this compelled prayer. What pleasure or pride can you possibly feel in knowing that children are compelled to worship your God? Why are you silent?

Well I am writing a 4000 word piece for my practical theology.

The title I have come up with is,

Collective Worship in a Church of England Voluntary Controlled Primary School. Is it theologically possible or morally desirable?

Here is a little flavour of the as yet uncompleted work.

Freedom of Conscience.
Earlier we looked at the words of Keith Porteous Wood from the NSS

‘Why are they (the children) being forced against their conscience to worship a God they don’t believe in? It is an abuse of their human rights – they are not permitted to exercise their freedom of conscience.’

It seems to me that the whole question turns on the issue of Freedom of Conscience.
What does Freedom of Conscience mean? How should it be applied to the individual. To what extent do children have the right or ability to exercise Freedom Conscience?

The Christians “atheism” was the basic cause of their maltreatment. Some intellectual pagans decried the forms of contemporary cult, but almost all concurred with them when necessary; the Christians refused to concur and their lack of respect was intolerable….
Nobody minded too much what the Christians did or did not believe. As a governor told Bishop Dionysius, there would be no objection if the bishop would only worship the pagan gods as well as his own.
Lane-Fox, R., Pagans and Christians p.425.

Christians were brought to the attention of the Roman authorities because they refused to offer sacrifices to the imperial Cults. The Romans were, in the main completely perplexed by this conscientious objection to sacrifice. The fact of Christian martyrdom at this time and throughout Christian History demonstrates in my view the importance that Christians has always given to their own Freedom of Conscience particularly in matters of worship.

Other Comments by flying goose

48. Comment #374297 by flying goose on May 8, 2009 at 1:18 pm

Further to my last, I suspect that I am the only person here who actually delivers a religious assembly. I enjoy working with the children, and they enjoy working with me. I am always very careful to say as often as is possible, well this is what Christians believe.

In assembly we sing hymns, I tell a story, we have a prayer or collective silence and a closing hymn. I would miss not doing it and I think they would too, for all that it troubles me that they do not have the choice.

Other Comments by flying goose

49. Comment #374298 by jardino on May 8, 2009 at 1:29 pm

Re: 36. Comment #374279 by Bonzai on May 8, 2009 at 11:39 am

"The U.K still has school uniform, right?"

No.
Some schools may have a mandatory code. Mostly, uniforms are optional.

"In a way school uniform also serves a similar purpose of ehancing group identity."

Agreed.

Best.

Other Comments by jardino

50. Comment #374305 by Prankster on May 8, 2009 at 2:23 pm

I had to go through this crap 3 times a day evryday. Once for morning assembly and at the end of the day, when we were once asked to give thanks for a wonderful day in school-what a load of shit! We even got prayers at lunchtime for jezus's sake! Woe betide anyone not giving thanks for god's bounteous gifts on the menu-usually 2 scoops of mash potato with a fish bone in or a vat of water with some sort of dead claw in it. Ye gods! All this assembly garbage all the way through my schooling, from my primary/infants schooling, through junior school and finally in secondary school.

That's 3 times a day for roughly 11 years, and my friends wonder why I hate religion so bloody much...

EDITED-swearing removed. It's not big or clever as a teacher said to me in Assembly one day....

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